And I get an abstinence movement that acknowledges that pre-marital sex is a fact of life while still advising young people to be very conservative with regards to whom they choose and how often they chose to have sex and treat sex like a BFD.

But are there any folks who firmly believe, and would advise their kids, that they should never have sex until they are married?

In this day and age I can't think of any more reckless advice than to tell someone to wait until they have bound themselves to life with someone before engaging in the most intimate act two people can partake and GAMBLE that you are compatible in such a huge aspect of your married life.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

the advice is only problematic if it results in folks being unequipped to handle many of the negative consequences of sex - unwanted pregnancies, STI's, HIV infection, shaming, et al.

i don't agree that ppl NEED to have sex w/their potential mate before marriage or that they NEED to have sex at all before their first marriage.

So you know how I feel about not making sexy time before marriage.

How can folks make such huge commitments without being expose to some basic aspects of their potential mate. Like whether they keep a nasty bathroom or have a micropenis.


>the advice is only problematic if it results in folks being
>unequipped to handle many of the negative consequences of sex
>- unwanted pregnancies, STI's, HIV infection, shaming, et al.
>
>i don't agree that ppl NEED to have sex w/their potential mate
>before marriage or that they NEED to have sex at all before
>their first marriage.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

they didn't cohabitate or have sex (w/each other) before they exchanged vows.

it can be done. and, of course, my parents aren't an isolated example - millions of ppl all over the world make marriages work w/o premarital sex or shacking up. hell, some ppl make marriages work w/o even having MET much if at all before the wedding ('arranged marriage').

so long. Same with arranged marriage. Women had less choice and divorce wasn't/isn't an option.

It's hard to point to examples from the past and arrange marriage to make the case for why no premarital sex is a good thing.



>they didn't cohabitate or have sex (w/each other) before they
>exchanged vows.
>
>it can be done. and, of course, my parents aren't an isolated
>example - millions of ppl all over the world make marriages
>work w/o premarital sex or shacking up. hell, some ppl make
>marriages work w/o even having MET much if at all before the
>wedding ('arranged marriage').


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

They're together bc they wanna be. Just like my other auntie and uncle - 45 years. And another - 41 years. I see them happy together.

Like two 80 year old kids.

>They're together bc they wanna be. Just like my other auntie
>and uncle - 45 years. And another - 41 years. I see them happy
>together.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

cohabitate or have premarital sex.

we cannot know the true inner workings of any intimate relationship. what may look and seem happy to you may not really be and it mainly depends on how people define happiness

just because people tell outsiders they are happy, doesn't necessarily mean they really are

sometimes we can mistake acceptance of our current circumstances and that they cannot be changed (or not wanting to spend the energy to change it), as "happiness"

cuz no one else is there when that couple is alone with each other...we only know what we see and what they allow us to see

and as half of a married couple, i can say for a fact that we are well aware of our control over how others see us :)

d

Exactly.

>How can folks make such huge commitments without being expose
>to some basic aspects of their potential mate. Like whether
>they keep a nasty bathroom or have a micropenis.

ROFL!!

>In this day and age I can't think of any more reckless advice
>than to tell someone to wait until they have bound themselves
>to life with someone before engaging in the most intimate act
>two people can partake and GAMBLE that you are compatible in
>such a huge aspect of your married life.
>
>

Help me understand this ling of logic and why it's reckless to tell someone to remain a virgin until they are married?

Well in previous days and ages, where women were considered property, their "virginity" was basically esteemed as their only desirable worth. It was determined that in order for a woman to get a man, she couldn't be with anyone else, and ultimately was beholden to the man's desires.

In this day and age, where women are not property but individuals, then their "virginity" should not only not be required, but their "virginity" should not even be a thing. It really doesn't exist.

However, if a person decides on their own regard that they want to abstain, for any reason, secular or sacred, then to each their own. And at some point they will venture out, or meet someone, and take that step, pre or post marriage. But they won't have to feel beholden to someone else's desires, or plan, or expectations. People can just be, as God intended.

"Waiting until marriage" was around 4 years after leaving your parents house back when the average marrying age was 22 (assuming you're out on your own by 18). Now that the average is nearly 27, that's nearly a decade of restraining yourself on nothing but your own discipline and conviction.

It just isn't practical to most people who aren't pursuing a life in the church. And the people that do hold out for that long will likely (IMO) develop issues around sex that will take years to undo.

Very good point.

>It just isn't practical to most people who aren't pursuing a
>life in the church. And the people that do hold out for that
>long will likely (IMO) develop issues around sex that will
>take years to undo.

I found it quite practical -- but maybe I'm an exception?

Anyway, there's no reason a person who abstains from sex should develop "issues" around sex
unless they choose to be ignorant about sex.
The more you educate yourself about it, the less of a forbidden enigma it becomes.

>>It just isn't practical to most people who aren't pursuing
>a
>>life in the church. And the people that do hold out for that
>>long will likely (IMO) develop issues around sex that will
>>take years to undo.
>
>I found it quite practical -- but maybe I'm an exception?

And, if I may ask, when did it end and why?

>Anyway, there's no reason a person who abstains from sex
>should develop "issues" around sex
>unless they choose to be ignorant about sex.
>The more you educate yourself about it, the less of a
>forbidden enigma it becomes.

I'm mostly speaking from my anecdotal relationship with a woman that was 23 yrs old when she lost her virginity to me. She said she wasn't holding out for marriage but still felt very conflicted by having sex outside of marriage. Turned out there was even more under the surface that complicated matters but that experience certainly made me wonder if other older virgins had similar hangups.

To me, sexual affection is supposed to be between two people in a loving, exclusive relationship.

I'm just the sort of person who reserves herself, so I don't engage in anything
that requires giving of myself unless I mean it -- not even hugging/kissing.
I'm not comfortable with it until I know and trust the person, and that takes a long time for me.

Plus, just being pragmatic -- the risks of sex were not worth it to me until
I felt I could handle them and was with someone I wanted to handle them with.


>And, if I may ask, when did it end and why?

I had sex 6 years ago, with someone I'd known and trusted for 10 years and had been with for a long time already.
I wanted to be in control of my "first time" and it finally felt like the right time with the right person.
And it was. I had a very wonderful first time, something I'd be glad to tell a teenager about as to why they should wait.
My boyfriend at the time actually felt pretty awful about his first time (it was several years prior, and he hadn't really wanted to).

Since then, I haven't had sex with anyone else. And I wouldn't be surprised if
I ended up waiting for a very long time before adding to my number. Maybe it will be my husband.

Or maybe it won't. Whatever it is, it will be because it's what I want and feel right about doing.
And not just to satisfy a physical urge or even to feed the mental need for affection.
Sex will always be, to me, something reserved for a loving, committed and established relationship.

I know it's not like that for many others. And I don't care what they do as long as they aren't in my bed.
I hope they choose to take the same stance of not judging me that I have taken for them.

>Well in previous days and ages, where women were considered
>property, their "virginity" was basically esteemed as their
>only desirable worth. It was determined that in order for a
>woman to get a man, she couldn't be with anyone else, and
>ultimately was beholden to the man's desires.
>
>In this day and age, where women are not property but
>individuals, then their "virginity" should not only not be
>required, but their "virginity" should not even be a thing. It
>really doesn't exist.
>
>However, if a person decides on their own regard that they
>want to abstain, for any reason, secular or sacred, then to
>each their own. And at some point they will venture out, or
>meet someone, and take that step, pre or post marriage. But
>they won't have to feel beholden to someone else's desires, or
>plan, or expectations. People can just be, as God intended.
>

You ended that with "as God intended" but He intended us to wait.


.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

however society had perpetually played out the scenario of a woman being beholden to her virginity while a man is validated by his virility.

And no disrespect to God's intentions, but I think what was intended was that we procreate, which is why sex feels amazing, because were it unenjoyable we would probably be extinct. Similarly it is why food tastes delicious, because if we didn't eat we'd die. It is a complimentarity of structure and function.

What we have done is gone a step beyond to govern what those feelings mean, who should do them and when one should participate. But those are more our intentions than God's. Were Adam and Eve married? Or were they paired together before marriage? Were Cane and Abel out of wedlock? Or were they God's intention? Even Jesus died on the cross before we participated in the body of Christ's church. That is a big physical commitment before we put a ring on it.

Also, because of societal advances in women rights which means women have more rights to choose who they marry and when.

So in a day in age in which women aren't being compelled to be married and both men and women have the ability to make a more informed decision and freely choose when to do so, it seems hard to argue that people should wait until they get married before having sex.



>
>>In this day and age I can't think of any more reckless
>advice
>>than to tell someone to wait until they have bound
>themselves
>>to life with someone before engaging in the most intimate
>act
>>two people can partake and GAMBLE that you are compatible in
>>such a huge aspect of your married life.
>>
>>
>
>Help me understand this ling of logic and why it's reckless to
>tell someone to remain a virgin until they are married?
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>Also, because of societal advances in women rights which
>means women have more rights to choose who they marry and
>when.
>

But what does that have to do with premarital sex?

>So in a day in age in which women aren't being compelled to be
>married and both men and women have the ability to make a more
>informed decision and freely choose when to do so, it seems
>hard to argue that people should wait until they get married
>before having sex.
>


It would seem that based on your perspective (not saying you are wrong) that more people (women) would take their time even more and wait. With all of this data on marital success rates, diseases, quality of life, changes for random single parenthood, waiting until marriage might be the better option.

Yaknow.

What if someone doesn't want to be married? What if they want a relationship, but has no desire to ever be married? Can that exist? And if it does, then once that consideration exists then why wouldn't it extend to all people?

>>Also, because of societal advances in women rights which
>>means women have more rights to choose who they marry and
>>when.
>>
>
>But what does that have to do with premarital sex?

In other words, People in general and women more specifically can choose now with more freedom to have sex without having to get married.




>
>>So in a day in age in which women aren't being compelled to
>be
>>married and both men and women have the ability to make a
>more
>>informed decision and freely choose when to do so, it seems
>>hard to argue that people should wait until they get married
>>before having sex.
>>
>
>It would seem that based on your perspective (not saying you
>are wrong) that more people (women) would take their time even
>more and wait. With all of this data on marital success rates,
>diseases, quality of life, changes for random single
>parenthood, waiting until marriage might be the better option.

People are though. People are waiting longer before getting married for example. Divorce rates are down from their peak. There are other examples of people making better decisions about getting married.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

>In this day and age I can't think of any more reckless advice
>than to tell someone to wait until they have bound themselves
>to life with someone before engaging in the most intimate act
>two people can partake and GAMBLE that you are compatible in
>such a huge aspect of your married life.

What makes it reckless is that it leads to people doing weird shit to get around a loop hole instead of just having regular protected sex. Because they're not "supposed" to be having sex they're sneaking around and doing it without getting birth control, condoms and generally being safe. That's the real problem.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

sure you WANT to have sex before marriage, but it's not necessary. just because you have sex with someone and it's great doesn't mean that it always will be. just the same as not having had sex with someone you have married doesn't mean that it won't be great in the future.

just because "everyone else is doing it" does mean much of anything honestly. people are kinda blinded to a lot of the problems that have come about from having such a passive attitude about sex.

I would advise my kids to wait until they're married to have sex. a lot of unwanted drama and heartache can be avoided when you're mind isn't so fixated on the unending pursuit of trying to "get some".

>sure you WANT to have sex before marriage, but it's not
>necessary. just because you have sex with someone and it's
>great doesn't mean that it always will be. just the same as
>not having had sex with someone you have married doesn't mean
>that it won't be great in the future.

I am not arguing that great sex equals the person to marry and bad sex equals the person not to marry.

I am arguing making an informed decision. Which also has nothing to do with what "everyone else is doing".

Also the desire to "want to get some" isn't at all determined by whether you decide to abstain or not (ie, you can decide to abstain and still be consumed with the desire to want and get some (in other words, "puberty").

And finally wanting to "get some" is probably one of the worst reasons to get married.


>
>just because "everyone else is doing it" does mean much of
>anything honestly. people are kinda blinded to a lot of the
>problems that have come about from having such a passive
>attitude about sex.
>
>I would advise my kids to wait until they're married to have
>sex. a lot of unwanted drama and heartache can be avoided
>when you're mind isn't so fixated on the unending pursuit of
>trying to "get some".


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

all I'm saying is that it's possible.

I didn't say that wanting to have sex causes problems. you're always going to want to have sex. that's just built into us as humans. abstinence will not stop that desire (nor should it). I'm talking about going out and trying to constantly fulfill that desire. that's where the problems can come in.

and I'm certainly not saying that if you're abstinent that you should get married just to have sex. that'd be a horribly stupid reason to marry someone.

and they truly want to meet someone and engage with them emotionally first and foremost. that's not something that just comes with marriage

lots of people need that before having sex, which is fine and healthy
so is someone who would rather just seek and engage in physical relationships. as long as they are aware and they seek people who are of a similar mind or understand and accept those terms, then that's healthy as well

drama and heartache aren't a result of seeking sex usually. if anything it's a result of seeking more

sex is the least of it and doesn't really factor into the pain

it's usually the other things you do in that involvement that you lament doing for someone who didn't love you or stopped loving you well before you realized it.

before I started having it. I believed the whole Oxytocin theory about why women got attachment to men they sleep with. When I've had my heart broken I don't even think about the sex. It's not even what I miss.

it's usually something more along the emotional lines like helping/supporting that person and being invested way more than they were

being sexually active though CAN lead to issues. unwanted pregnancies and disease are but just a few. does sex lead to these things all the time? of course not.

does only having sex when you're married mean you won't have any problems? of course not.

if you do not want to have premarital sex, you should find someone who feels the same way you do.

"a lot of unwanted drama and heartache can be avoided when you're mind isn't so fixated on the unending pursuit of trying to "get some""

and i disagree
not everyone is in that pursuit of sex
someone who is not having sex can easily fall into drama and heartache trying to find what they are looking for.

expanding on sex was just to show that ultimately for most people involved in drama and heartache, sex isn't as prevalent an 'issue' as most would think

>and i disagree
>not everyone is in that pursuit of sex
>someone who is not having sex can easily fall into drama and
>heartache trying to find what they are looking for.
>
>expanding on sex was just to show that ultimately for most
>people involved in drama and heartache, sex isn't as prevalent
>an 'issue' as most would think


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

yes.. my daughter

:D

I will just let my kids know that sex can come with consequences if they aren't safe and to make sure they're in charge of their decisions

I dont think anyone under 18 or 19 is emotionally mature enough to lose their virginity, but it's happening

I think I'd rather promote selectiveness over abstinence and most importantly leave an open space for my kids to talk to me about anything

one woman said she had a condom jar that she would fill up for her kids with no questions asked, I kind of liked that idea

>I will just let my kids know that sex can come with
>consequences if they aren't safe and to make sure they're in
>charge of their decisions
>
>I dont think anyone under 18 or 19 is emotionally mature
>enough to lose their virginity, but it's happening
>
>I think I'd rather promote selectiveness over abstinence and
>most importantly leave an open space for my kids to talk to me
>about anything
>
>one woman said she had a condom jar that she would fill up for
>her kids with no questions asked, I kind of liked that idea


.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

abstinence vs. premarital fucking
not fucking animals vs. beastiality
living healthy vs. obesity
not judging others vs. being Case One

it isn't realistic to expect a teenager to not be preoccupied with sex

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

this is the 15 second search. I am sure if I searched longer I can find more recent data.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

I see it already. Lol. Just gonna sit back and wait for the right person to engage him.

>I see it already. Lol. Just gonna sit back and wait for the
>right person to engage him.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

For sex? Taking a poll here.

and for the record, I wouldn't automatically disqualify her if she was not a virgin.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

Our society is hyper-sexualized in every area of out normal daily living.


.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

its also about knowing whats important to you as a spouse.

some men know that they will cheat or be tempted to cheat if they're not sexually satisfied or sexually compatible with their partner.

if sex isn't important to you, then i can see why it wouldn't be as important see what the deal is beforehand.

in my virgin days, i did sense that the guys just wanted me to have more sexual experience but also more emotional experience dealing with sex.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

which is no excuse.

I just don't see someone who's abstained for so long suddenly having an open mind about sex and suddenly is going to have a strong libido and that's going to count a lot once we are working against the built in tedium of long term relationships/marriage to keep the sexual aspect of that relationship going

I just don't see ourselves as equally yoked when it comes to fucking, lol.

confusing with the subject break but i was seeing a girl that was saving herself for marriage years ago...i told her it wasn't for me and that i wasn't looking for a relationship that didn't involve sex...it's a packaged deal for me. i placed no judgement or pressure but kept it real. we ended up having sex not long after and we stayed together almost 2 years but ultimately broke up.

edit: I should add that she wasn't a virgin but she was no longer interested in having more sex until she was married...or something like that. she'd basically abstained since her last serious relationship which was maybe a year prior to us meeting.

maybe i'm wrong for this but we never would've gotten to that 2 year mark without having sex. we could've been friends but other than that...i'm good. i would've just let her find a dude that was down for that.

i feel guilty about it but yeah i quietly judge.

the Bible says dont do it.

but yeah. I'm for it. when i was a teenager and devoutly Christian, i was saving myself for marriage...then college happened and i started asking questions about Christianity and it stopped making sense. i still wanted to wait until i was married. you can imagine my fine ass having the virginity talk with prospective romantic partners, lol. it was tricky and more complicated that necessary. so eventually i started fornicating and wish i would have started sooner.

#issues

i think when i have kids it will be more about creating that space where they can talk to me and i can guide them through the process of understanding and managing their sexuality.

i get why you shouldn't kill someone or sleep with your neighbor's wife...etc. but the whole premarital sex thing seems like an odd add-on of some sort. i stopped being religious long before i was having sex though so it was never a conflict for me.

actually it made more sense in the time the Bible was written.

trying to reconcile the Bible's stance on premarital sex to the consequences of premarital sex in modern times definitely gave me the clue that Christianity wasn't a good fit for me. and i wasn't even fucking, lol.

ijs

they dont anticipate lying to someone or coveting someone like they anticipate their next piece of ass they're not married to.

besides there are levels of all those things, many of them are subjective and mental. but having sex with someone you are not married to is an action and pretty cut and dry.

almost like an obsession. Cause it's mentioned in the bible not
emphasized and obsessed over.

When I first started I use to feel bad about it but I think I got over it pretty quickly.

I don't even think there is anything hypocritical about it either.

I think what your statement misjudges about being a Christian is that you aren't a Christian because you are without sin. In fact one of the most important aspects of being a Christian is acknowledging that we are full of sin and we should constantly strive to be better people and not hold ourselves higher than other people who commit sin (note that I didn't say don't judge others).

But that's just me. The way my faith developed isn't something you see a lot.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

the key word is "willful."

no one is saying that Christians are perfect. but when you have a book that clearly tells you what to do and what NOT to do, you are obligated to TRY to follow suit. however, many Christians don't seem to try or have any conflict about it; they just rationalize it the same way you did: "yeah, i know this is a sin, but i know God is going to forgive me, so i'm good."

Or maybe rather not a big sin. I think the bible does make clear that there are big sins and little sins despite what Preachers tell us. See Matthew 22:36-40 aka The GREAT Commandment.

Like many people said before, there are plenty of commandments we break all the time and some are more important than others. I think if you try hard to follow the Great Commandment you will be okay.

Might sound convenient but for practical purposes I think it's the hardest commandment(s) to consistently follow.

Also, I think that's better than thinking there is a biblical loophole (ie, "yeah, i know this is a sin, but i know God is going to forgive me, so i'm >good."). God knows what is in your heart so if your beliefs and remorse are not sincere then you can't really ask for forgiveness of be forgiven.



>the key word is "willful."
>
>no one is saying that Christians are perfect. but when you
>have a book that clearly tells you what to do and what NOT to
>do, you are obligated to TRY to follow suit. however, many
>Christians don't seem to try or have any conflict about it;
>they just rationalize it the same way you did: "yeah, i know
>this is a sin, but i know God is going to forgive me, so i'm
>good."
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

I'm about to change all of my answers on the test.

they put the fear of Allah into their daughters
the average muslim chick, even the non-hijabis, ain't giving it up before marriage
of course some get down and take the risk of getting honor killed, but for the most part it's no go for the muzzi box

In addition to the already existing budget for AOUM (Abstinence Only Until Marriage), it was increased by 25 mill a year. Bringing the total for AOUM to 75 million! Also given the state-match requirements of the program, this has the potential to surpass more than $130 million per year in public dollars wasted on AOUM programs that have consistently proven to be ineffective.

So though folks in each state want this program, it has been proven useless and a waste of money.

ps. I work in sexual reproductive health and teen pregnancy prevention

And to only have sex if they are planning to marry or planning to become pregnant.

I don't think it would eliminate encounters but may reduce them, which is a win in itself.

I've slept with around 10 people in my life. I really only feel three were needed. Sex is sex imo. As long as both people are prepared to learn then I don't see how waiting till marriage or near marriage is a bad thing.

history.

It says sex is sacred between husband and wife. It's also says don't be a ho.

Ion't think the bible ever actually says premarital sex is a sin, though.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/premarital_sex