http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/touch-isolation-how-homophobia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch/

Partial Swipe:

American men, in an attempt to avoid any possible hint of committing unwanted sexual touch, are foregoing gentle platonic touch in their lives. I’ll call it touch isolation. Homophobic social stigmas, the long-standing challenges of rampant sexual abuse, and a society steeped in a generations old puritanical mistrust of physical pleasure have created an isolating trap in which American men can go for days or weeks at a time without touching another human being. The implications of touch isolation for men’s health and happiness are huge.

...it's a great read.

I have come across so many men whom are so afraid to show any affection towards another man. You can't even bring something up in a joke. Each of them always has a big speech on what a man should and shouldn't do. I suspect some of them will share it in this post, but hey, everyone needs to rock their cape from time to time.

... with the exception of, maybe, holding hands.

Growing up, there was no shortage of men embracing one another, especially in times of grieving or joy. When we greet one another it's usually shaking hands and the "bruh hug" though it goes deeper than that depending on the situation and the person. Maybe it's a "black thing", 'cause I don't really see it like that with white guys outside of frat houses.

Even in major league sports, men are quick to embrace one another.

I hug my son, my stepfather, my pops when he was alive, uncles and grandfathers. I really can't recall a time when black men DIDN'T do this.

---------------------------

forcing myself to actually respond to you is like bathing in ebola virus. - Binlahab

Like there is stupid, and then there is you, and then there is dead. - VAsBestBBW

R.I.P. Disco D

definitely one of the bigger differences i see when im in the u.s
versus back in one of the continents of africa

and it seems to be related to ideas of modernity
men are more relaxed about holding hands etc
the more rural i go

i blame the missionaries



whoooo
'We need to empower men to touch. We need to fix our sexually repressed/obsessed American culture and put an end to distorted and hateful parts of our culture that allow homophobic people to police all men everywhere down to the very tips of our fingertips.

A friend had prepared me for it so I didn't trip. I saw it in some of the villages - I don't remember seeing it in Accra or Kumasi. I thought of it when I read the article. I too blame the missionaries for changing that practice.

definitely harder to see among folks that consider themselves more middle to upper class
so not so much in the city center, less so in some neighbourhoods compared to others
poor repressed souls- they dont know what they are signing up for
--

in south sudan ...(this is an aside, btw)
let me not generalize... among my father's people
men are more comfortable around each other- more likely to see men holding hands when walking,
or holding each other by the shoulder
and spending more time with each other than their wives/partners

i find it quite fascinating


especially because it's against a background that plays to the fucked up notions of gender that we have
i think mine is a culture that truly defines misogyny -
e.g a man who has a stronger friendship with his wife/female friends than his buddies/kin is considered weak.

but its also a very sexually-repressed culture
i keep telling folks that i want to start a sex-therapy/sex-as-pleasure movement in the village
cause sometimes i think we think its only for reproduction (moreso on the woman's part)

so... there's that

recently this dude came out (last month i think)
and the reaction of the community led him to try and kill himself (had to be hospitalized)
this is in the u.s- and we are fucked up in the u.s (even he is fucked up in some ways, vis a vis concept of beauty/bleaching i.e.)

but...i still always wonder about african notions of homosexuality (prior to livingtone and 'em)
there's too many grey areas for me to believe its as black and white as we now perceive it
too many interpretations of cultural norms

>definitely harder to see among folks that consider themselves
>more middle to upper class
>so not so much in the city center, less so in some
>neighbourhoods compared to others
>poor repressed souls- they dont know what they are signing up
>for

agreed!

>in south sudan ...(this is an aside, btw)
>let me not generalize... among my father's people
>men are more comfortable around each other- more likely to see
>men holding hands when walking,
>or holding each other by the shoulder
>and spending more time with each other than their
>wives/partners
>
>i find it quite fascinating

yes. me too.

>especially because it's against a background that plays to the
>fucked up notions of gender that we have
>i think mine is a culture that truly defines misogyny -
>e.g a man who has a stronger friendship with his wife/female
>friends than his buddies/kin is considered weak.

damn.

>but its also a very sexually-repressed culture
>i keep telling folks that i want to start a
>sex-therapy/sex-as-pleasure movement in the village
>cause sometimes i think we think its only for reproduction
>(moreso on the woman's part)
>
>so... there's that

interesting. when did Americans (women, really) jump on the idea of sex as pleasure? Betty Friedan/The Feminine Mystique?

>recently this dude came out (last month i think)
>and the reaction of the community led him to try and kill
>himself (had to be hospitalized)
>this is in the u.s- and we are fucked up in the u.s (even he
>is fucked up in some ways, vis a vis concept of
>beauty/bleaching i.e.)

so sad. SO sad.

>but...i still always wonder about african notions of
>homosexuality (prior to livingtone and 'em)
>there's too many grey areas for me to believe its as black and
>white as we now perceive it
>too many interpretations of cultural norms

it's not nearly as black and white as we want it to be.

Not too much, but one guy who I DJ'd with did it, as I mentioned below. I didn't really see a whole lot of it though.

to me. I can't see it happening in the US (did it ever)?

Also to be fair, there seems to me to be a high correlation between cultures where men are physically affectionate towards each other and being repressive towards women in general. Correct me if I am wrong.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

I did exactly what you said, I read the article soooo. I don't have to STFU.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

thats a bit too general for me
i gave an example of my father's people which would seem to conform to your ideas
but i can also give other examples from my country and kenya where this is not the case
for example i can give you my mother's people as an example
where we mostly form monogomous relationships that are on a more or less equal basis
yes there are still fixed roles/notions of gender
but men still be hand holding and loving each other and their women
so i dont see it as x causes y

isolation issues?

I hear you and you would know better than me, but I don't think the correlation the author is making holds up either. Mainly because there are alot of very homophobic societies that also seem to not have an issue with male physical intimacies. I am thinking of arab nations.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

and in *this* society there's definitely a link with homophobia
yes there exist homophobic societies in which men are very touchy feely
that doesn't necessarily negate the fact that in *this* context it is because of homophobia

and when i talk about nairobi and guys being less touchy feely
its because they are most likely to say, well that's gay
than someone in a rural area for whom that is not a logical conclusion
and the fact that this actually happens in that context as well actual supports this tenet

men here don't touch each other platonically largely b/c we want to avoid being labeled gay. i myself avoid it b/c i am gay and i don't want men i touch to think i'm coming on to them or feeling them up for a thrill.

that's how homophobia operates to isolate us from platonic touch.

homophobia operates differently in other places.

w/o regard for the root of touch isolation among men, it's a problem as identified by the author. i agree. and i'd agree even if we were isolated from touch for reasons that have nothing to do w/homophobia.

I don't touch other hetero men's wives. I'd contend other societies have more touch regardless of preference. It seems weird to say that 'homophobia provokes this attitude'. If it did...it would manifest the same way everywhere. Most non-western countries are MUCH more homophobic than the US. So why would the US be 'particular' about this?

The Protestant idealism and emphasis on individuality that defines American ideals seems to be a more direct explanation for the absence of human touch than homophobia. I'd argue that the way homophobia manifests in America is a by-product of the broader social paradigm of individualism. Freedom over the greater good. A perspective that views other people as a burden or as competition. You don't need them.....you tolerate them. Most of the world has an underlying assumption and understanding that we need each other to be who we are. By ourselves....we are an animal. We depend on each other's interaction for our very own self-perception. I can't be who I am without the people around me. I am a product of human interaction.

isolation issues?

that's pretty much the converse of what you said

i used to work with some danes, and these dudes were pretty touchy feely
id wager so are the french
and these are not your typically homophobic/represed societies

I finished DJ'n, and the dude who was on the mic when I was on was like "let me introduce you to some folks" and he grabbed my hand. Shit was the most awkward walk I ever had since hearing my dad say "COME HERE!!!!!" after I knew he found out I cheated on a test.

Someone had it on Facebook
And yepyepyep
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

My fave was the part about the burden on young women presented by young men who are desperate for touch. I had not heard about that b4. I completely agreed.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

http://serbianna.com/analysis/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bush_saudi.jpg

Then Americans in general

Daps and pounds and that's about it. Any more and the phobia shows up.

in a movie theater is a no no
i wept for humanity

On buses and subways men with take UP womens space
Like that shit makes us more comfortable
No mofo
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I really don't get it.

Generally of giving space always whenever possible
Also in favor of anticipating more people are likely coming

That in mind me and a young man entered a subway car
We sat across and diagonal from each other
Both sitting on the end of our respective three person seating space

Next stop three people got on
Mind you the car was empty except for now five people

Two sat next to me, guy and girl
Which was a bit awkward given it was an empty car
But
The third dude since he was talking to his friend sat opposite them
Right next to the first guy across/diagonal from me
Instead of leaving the empty space

We connected over that
All three broke all sorts of space rules
We looked at each other like 0_o
Part of me debated whether it was homophobic
But really that's a stranger and there was plenty of room
And it wasn't cold so wtf
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>Generally of giving space always whenever possible
>Also in favor of anticipating more people are likely coming
>
>That in mind me and a young man entered a subway car
>We sat across and diagonal from each other
>Both sitting on the end of our respective three person seating
>space
>
>Next stop three people got on
>Mind you the car was empty except for now five people
>
>Two sat next to me, guy and girl
>Which was a bit awkward given it was an empty car
>But
>The third dude since he was talking to his friend sat opposite
>them
>Right next to the first guy across/diagonal from me
>Instead of leaving the empty space
>
>We connected over that
>All three broke all sorts of space rules
>We looked at each other like 0_o
>Part of me debated whether it was homophobic
>But really that's a stranger and there was plenty of room
>And it wasn't cold so wtf

There are so many times in life when personal space has to be compromised, why do they have to go out of their way to get an extra fix?

I don't get that at all. Even if it's cold.

i have 4 friends who i've known for more than 15 yrs (1 of them since 7th grade). 2 are gay, 1 is bi and the other is str8. w/each of them i can count on 2 hands the number of times we've touched beyond a handshake.

He grabbed my hand to lead me in some direction, this I had no problem with but then he didn't let go... and the longer he held my hand the more uncomfortable I became.

For what was probably like 30 secs felt like 30mins for me and I eventually pulled my hand away as gently as I could with him noticing my uncomfortableness(Fail). I felt bad but that feeling of being judged was hard to shake..

I was also surprised by how comfortable Korean boys/men are with touching but seem to be very homophobic...

Homophobia and preference are two different things.

At a certain point, a man typically prefers that touch from a woman.

There's a line between that preference (i.e. because it fucking feels better to him) and homophobia.

Simply put, once boys discover girls they spend most of their time running around with half woods chasing them, and prefer that over snapping a pic on another boy's lap.

As a man, you typically no longer desire ongoing comfort from the strong hands of a man unless it's a major situation.

I remember when the brother of one of the toughest dudes in my neighborhood got killed. I caught him just walking up the street by himself in disbelief looking hurt. I pulled my car over immediately, hopped out and threw my arms around him.

And he didn't reject it.

That said, I greet damn near all my close male friends with a five AND hug when I see them.

There's more to be said about the bullshit in the connection that was drawn, but I don't care enough to keep going.

>Homophobia and preference are two different things.
>
>At a certain point, a man typically prefers that touch from a
>woman.
>
>There's a line between that preference (i.e. because it
>fucking feels better to him) and homophobia.
>
>Simply put, once boys discover girls they spend most of their
>time running around with half woods chasing them, and prefer
>that over snapping a pic on another boy's lap.
>
>As a man, you typically no longer desire ongoing comfort from
>the strong hands of a man unless it's a major situation.
>

So I don't think this can apply across the board as if there's no context to how that attitude comes about.

Different cultures have different attitudes to contact between men.

>Homophobia and preference are two different things.
>
>At a certain point, a man typically prefers that touch from a
>woman.

there are men all over the world who are attracted to women but don't have the same issues we have w/touching other men PLATONICALLY.

the article proposes some reasons why men lose the ability to touch platonically.

you've hit on exactly what the article says is a problem - that boys are socialized by their parents and other caretakers not to be touched. and so then they go through puberty and develop and identify strong sexual feelings. by the time they become men the only touch that's recognized as okay is sexual or athletic. platonic touch is all but lost.

the writer says this is a problem for men's mental and emotional health.

If anything it has more to do with the fear of him going out into the world and getting his ass whipped for ANY reason.

Like I said there's a line.

>
>you've hit on exactly what the article says is a problem -
>that boys are socialized by their parents and other caretakers
>not to be touched. and so then they go through puberty and
>develop and identify strong sexual feelings. by the time they
>become men the only touch that's recognized as okay is sexual
>or athletic. platonic touch is all but lost.
>
>the writer says this is a problem for men's mental and
>emotional health.
>

against what exactly?
its not like he's going to hunting for his dinner
or he's headed out to raid another tribe
its 2015, for godsakes

what this typically means is teaching boys how to repress emotions
so as not to appear weak - the whole big boys dont cry thing
that also comes along with how we define 'masculine hetero alpha
actually, this is probably another issue to discuss-
because it does have repercussions

perhaps we should teach boys to be girls
we tend to be tougher anyway
(not physically maybe, but in ways that count in the longer run)

Kids in Baltimore getting fucked up over Beats headphones on the bus. Sneakers. Etc.

Hell, these days I wouldn't blame parents for trying to toughen up their girls to prepare for some of these chicks out here.

But the bottom line is that the world generally doesn't respect a "soft" dude. Not in the street, not even in the corporate world.

And no, "soft" does not equal gay.

It means that you run and hide at any sign of trouble or difficult situation.

It means that you quit before you try.

how does w/holding hugs and caresses and cuddles from young boys teach them not to run from trouble?

I'm saying it's the intention.

>Kids in Baltimore getting fucked up over Beats headphones on
>the bus. Sneakers. Etc.

which is why they react with violence
perhaps if they were held and cuddled more
they wouldnt be as fucked up
certainly if they came from a supportive and loving environment
they wouldn't be trying so hard to be aggressors and thugs
instead of being 'soft'
(and wtf does soft actually mean? being normal?)

maybe we should cut to the chase call this 'weak' and 'soft' thing what it is - we condition our boys so they won't be 'weak' or 'soft' b/c those are feminine/womanly traits.

and, of course, one the reasons homosexuality among men makes us so uncomfortable is that those men are exhibiting womanly behavior. even if they're not effeminate they still have sex w/men. one or both of them even receives a penis in his mouth and/or anus. so one or both of them is acting like a woman.

and we hate women so we think men debase themselves where they behave like women.

if we honored women then homosexuality among men wouldn't bother us at all. we might even prize it.

but that's all getting too deep, maybe.

women should be..... or act like...
and if they don't its problematic
it is misogynism/chauvinism to reduce women into caricatures
which often just means exerting a level of control over them that reduces them to children
y'all can call them gender roles if you want
this shit is exists because men benefit (or used to) from controlling women folk
(or rather as someone once told me... control reproduction)

but this is one thing i wonder
why then such men have a problem with dykes
is it because they challenge the whole notion of masculine being an ideal that belongs to a particular sex
or that its natural
or because they challenge the level of control a 'man' could/should have over how a woman identifies?

>and we hate women so we think men debase themselves where they
>behave like women.

>but that's all getting too deep, maybe.

no its not. its a logical conclusion

>but this is one thing i wonder
>why then such men have a problem with dykes
>is it because they challenge the whole notion of masculine
>being an ideal that belongs to a particular sex
>or that its natural
>or because they challenge the level of control a 'man'
>could/should have over how a woman identifies?

i think it's all of that at the same time.

plus the existence of homosexuality among women makes many men feel erased. useless. it challenges their manhood. b/c for many men their manhood is tied up in their heterosexuality or in the idea that women 'need' them. so if there are women out there who don't 'need' them...then these men lose a piece of themselves and their manhood. it freaks them out.

>>but this is one thing i wonder
>>why then such men have a problem with dykes
>>is it because they challenge the whole notion of masculine
>>being an ideal that belongs to a particular sex
>>or that its natural
>>or because they challenge the level of control a 'man'
>>could/should have over how a woman identifies?
>
>i think it's all of that at the same time.
>
>plus the existence of homosexuality among women makes many men
>feel erased. useless. it challenges their manhood. b/c for
>many men their manhood is tied up in their heterosexuality or
>in the idea that women 'need' them. so if there are women out
>there who don't 'need' them...then these men lose a piece of
>themselves and their manhood. it freaks them out.
>

I think it's the idea that society as a whole will just completely pass them by. When others can be fluid in who they are and the roles they play, these two dimensional characters will just be obsolete. Plus there might be a bit of self hate involved. All these guys who have poor attitudes towards women, and really, *really* look forward to the boys night out, or just any time away from the women in their lives. It nags at the back of the head that they feel this level of comfort among other men and they never feel it at home. I imagine the inability to process that mixed with the jealousy over other men who have been able to accept who they are leads to some pretty poor attitudes.

Alwyas tryna prove how manly they are.
You aint a man G. I will knock you out you cross that line

and u have some issues u need to work out bro

>plus the existence of homosexuality among women makes many men
>feel erased. useless. it challenges their manhood. b/c for
>many men their manhood is tied up in their heterosexuality or
>in the idea that women 'need' them. so if there are women out
>there who don't 'need' them...then these men lose a piece of
>themselves and their manhood. it freaks them out.

You and Akon spit a word.

HUMANS need touch, and compassion and love.

Hell, so do most animals...

We shouldn't raise boys as boys or girls as girls in the strictest binary sense, cuz both of the western conceptions of gender roles have major major issues

you teach him to "man up" so that he can be resilient at whatever trials that life throws at him. You teach him to toughen up so that he has the strength and fortitude to keep pushing because it's 2015, for godsake.



>against what exactly?
>its not like he's going to hunting for his dinner
>or he's headed out to raid another tribe
>its 2015, for godsakes
>
>what this typically means is teaching boys how to repress
>emotions
>so as not to appear weak - the whole big boys dont cry thing
>that also comes along with how we define 'masculine hetero
>alpha
>actually, this is probably another issue to discuss-
>because it does have repercussions
>
>perhaps we should teach boys to be girls
>we tend to be tougher anyway
>(not physically maybe, but in ways that count in the longer
>run)
>


Fuck your fort!

i really like this article
mainly because i think it (somehow) touches on how we construct notions of what is gender-appropriate
and nothing says more than blue for boys and pink for girls and what that supposedly represents

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297159948/girls-are-taught-to-think-pink-but-that-wasnt-always-so

brief swipe...
" a 1918 trade catalog for children's clothing recommended blue for girls. The reasoning at the time was that it's a "much more delicate and dainty tone," Finamore says. Pink was recommended for boys "because it's a stronger and more passionate color, and because it's actually derived from red."

To our 21st century ears, all this men in pink stuff may sound a bit blushy. "It's so deeply entrenched in us and our culture," says Finamore. "We think of pink as such a girlish color, but it's really a post-World War II phenomenon."

which brings up another point that is often lost in these discussions:

How much money has corporations made by limiting individual imagination?

Meaning, people are easily, easily programmed to do...just about everything. I think we kind of do a disservice to ourselves when we leave out the profit motive and marketing out of all of this.

Once again
Preference is something STILL done
NOT not done AT ALL
Esp on the basis of preconceived notions
That's prejudice
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

the author says it's problematic that boys lose the ability to touch or be touched platonically and that causes us trouble as men.

men can be touched platonically by women and other men w/o regard for their romantic or sexual orientation. it's possible and men all over the world experience it. we're in here talking about it happening in several African cultures, for example. and the men in those places are often virulently homophobic but still okay w/platonic touching among men. but homophobia operates here in our culture to block this platonic touch among men. men don't touch each other very often platonically to avoid being labeled as homosexual. it even happens to me and i'm gay as fuck. i don't touch other men platonically BECAUSE i'm gay and i don't want them to think i'm coming on to them. i don't want to make them or others uncomfortable.

i totally see what the author is saying.

completely
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

ppl tie themselves in knots to avoid having their actions or viewpoints labeled as homophobic.

the author's main point is that touch isolation among men is harmful to men's mental and emotional well-being. it's not really about homophobia - the phobia is only the catalyst.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Many men are disconnected from touch.

I just don't agree that the issue is rooted primarily in homophobia.

And also, when we say platonic touch, what are we talking about?

Hugs?

Kisses?

Holding hands?

A friendly groping of balls?

Because part of the discomfort in that some of that coming from a man is that it. doesn't. feel. good.

But at the same time, I just gave two examples of platonic touch that are accepted with love.

Are womens and mens hands so different that touch from one feels so far from the other that you can even really have a preference?

There's strong women with rough hands, there's weak men with baby palms. I'd bet you a million dollars you couldn't tell the difference between a mans and a womans touch blind everything else being equal.

1st - Holding hands with a manhandsasswoman wouldn't feel good either.

If it doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel good.

2nd - There are different views on platonic. As an adult, personally, I don't hold hands with women I'm not romantically connected to in some way (with the exception being family). To me holding hands is intimate. Some people do, personally I don't. So yes, even if a dude has soft hands, I don't do it because I don't desire romantic intimacy from him.

The only exceptions are my mother and aunts because we do it playfully sometimes to return to childhood times, and my grandfather that is in a nursing home.

Hugs on the other hand are just fine.

it's about physical intimacy but not necessarily physical pleasure. it is communication more than anything.

i don't hug my aunties b/c it feels good when their titties smush against my chest. is that why you hug yours? or do you hug them b/c you want to communicate something?

same would go for putting your arms around your homie as y'all watch a movie. or holding hands after you finish playing basketball.

hell, why do athletes slap each others' asses? not b/c they like feeling on each others' booties, is it? no, it's b/c they're communicating w/each other.

again, the same would be true of resting your leg over your brother's as you sit on a couch and watch football. it's not about how good it feels physically to have your leg all up on his but about what you're saying to each other via the touch.

People view platonic differently. So if I don't do certain things with a man, it isn't because I'm homophobic, it's because I don't do that with any platonic friends, including women.

Not attempting to deny that homophobia exists for many men in those scenarios, I just don't believe that to be the primary root.

That's the only thing I'm calling bullshit on.


>it's about physical intimacy but not necessarily physical
>pleasure. it is communication more than anything.
>
>i don't hug my aunties b/c it feels good when their titties
>smush against my chest. is that why you hug yours? or do you
>hug them b/c you want to communicate something?
>
>same would go for putting your arms around your homie as y'all
>watch a movie. or holding hands after you finish playing
>basketball.
>
>hell, why do athletes slap each others' asses? not b/c they
>like feeling on each others' booties, is it? no, it's b/c
>they're communicating w/each other.
>
>again, the same would be true of resting your leg over your
>brother's as you sit on a couch and watch football. it's not
>about how good it feels physically to have your leg all up on
>his but about what you're saying to each other via the touch.
>

you are not a bad person if you avoid platonic touch w/other men b/c it feels wrong or gay. it's not your fault. you are blameless. you were conditioned that way and can't help it. if you never get over it it's not a judgment on you it's on the way you were brought up. it is not your fault.

i myself am pretty homophobic. i think we gays are the most homophobic ppl on the planet. even us out gays. i said below - i limit my platonic touching of other men EVEN GAY ONES b/c i don't want to make them uncomfortable. b/c i am projecting my own internalized homophobia. and i think i'm awesome even though i'm also a homophobe.

so if you are one (and sorry, but you are) it's not your fault. you are not a bad person. you aren't deficient b/c of it. it's not about you it's about your conditioning.

(see Com? i'm extending my hand in love. platonically though).

.

know your real name.

So do not label me something I am not, because I respect you enough (even through our back and forth on this site), to not label you.

You don't know how I was brought up. I could tell you about it but it wouldn't change anything and that's fine.

I respect your position on this topic, but I do not agree with it.

And that's fine.

But let's respect each other.

>So do not label me something I am not, because I respect you
>enough (even through our back and forth on this site), to not
>label you.

you. are. a. homo. phobe.

>You don't know how I was brought up. I could tell you about
>it but it wouldn't change anything and that's fine.

you were brought up to be a homophobe.

i know b/c of what you've said in this post and others. this ain't my first day on the Internet.

>I respect your position on this topic, but I do not agree with
>it.
>
>And that's fine.
>
>But let's respect each other.

i respect you as much as i respect any other relatively anonymous Internet stranger who is also a homophobe like me.

I never gave much thought to the gay community and touch and it affecting them

One thing to think about though is just American culture in general isn't the most touchy feeling
And African Americans
Maybe it's my dads side of the family but a few years ago we decided to make a conscious effort because we realized we barely hugged each other
And since we were so out of practice it was awkward at first
Ironically my dad always made it a point to hug
Maybe he realized this I don't know

Fir me I avoided it and work on it
Because my mom was and IS touchy feely and the apt I grew up in is narrow
And looking back she got a huge kick out of my skittishness
I swear the woman was always tryna hug me to the pont I know I hurt her feelings quite a few times

Anyways my question is what are the racial and ethnic mixes of your circles?
Is there a difference in touch and comfort level?


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

in fact i see them limit their desire to reach out and touch me b/c they recognize my reticence.

i also have non-black friends who are touchy-feely and some that aren't.

i do think culture plays a big role in this. i suspect Americans started limiting platonic touch as part of an effort to separate themselves from newly arrived immigrants. and the American-no-touch thing likely has some roots w/the Puritans who may have thought they were being pious and more God-like by avoiding platonic touch. b/c, hell, they also largely avoided romantic or sexual touch, i think.

so, yeah. i agree that the touch isolation bit doesn't have to be about homophobia. which i've said in here more than once. lol

Ugh this dude

I do agree it's concerning like you as a person who works on this

I forgot about the country' puritanical roots
It's where we have our weirdness about sex and nudity in general as well

This might be a weird one
I quirked an eyebrow at those hugging parties when they popped up
But they maybe more needed than I oreviously gave credit for

Also it stems from the whole men and women can't be platonic friends thing
When did society get so damned sexualized?!



I hate auto correct with a passion
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>Ugh this dude

ikr?

>I do agree it's concerning like you as a person who works on
>this
>
>I forgot about the country' puritanical roots
>It's where we have our weirdness about sex and nudity in
>general as well

i saw a documentary on PBS about the history of Italians in America and learned that many Italians turned away from much of their Italian cultural behavior as part of their assimilation process to become Americans (aka 'white') as opposed to Italians. reading your reply about your family reminded me of that and i wonder if many American immigrants lost platonic touch b/c they wanted to be more like the Americans. also, thinking about the hand-holding i saw in Ghana and have read about in this post also made me wonder if immigrants drop platonic touch in a desire to assimilate. but i dunno for sure.

>This might be a weird one
>I quirked an eyebrow at those hugging parties when they popped
>up
>But they maybe more needed than I oreviously gave credit for

damn. that's good. i hadn't thought of that in this context. i tend to agree w/you.

>Also it stems from the whole men and women can't be platonic
>friends thing
>When did society get so damned sexualized?!

i like what the author said - once platonic touch is lost then the only touch that remain are sexual and athletic, it seems.

>I hate auto correct with a passion

LOL

The homophobia is strong no doubt

Hip hop turned on its damn self by mid 90s
You can see it w Dame and L Jamal and dudes I know for that era still policing other dudes masculinity

It yes there have to be Americans xenophobic reaction to immigrants and the huge push to assimilate that didn't abate until at least the 80s
And we still play to that w TV characters that 70s show and Wilmer Valderama an Sophia Vergara. Fresh off the boat might be the first to turn that around on Americans abd our weirdness


We might need more of that in examining our cultural aversion touch esp among males

> i wonder if many American immigrants
>lost platonic touch b/c they wanted to be more like the
>Americans. also, thinking about the hand-holding i saw in
>Ghana and have read about in this post also made me wonder if
>immigrants drop platonic touch in a desire to assimilate. but
>i dunno for sure.

they are definitely uncomfortable with physical touch
my lil cuz was a little shook when he came to nairobi
(and we definitely live in the middle-upper class part of town)
they are very quick to label many things as being 'gay'

and its funny cause my uncles are for the most part still okay with touch
i dont know about how they are 'out' there in public/ with american friends

the kids though... these kids are fucked up for the most part
american culture is very destructive.
especially if you are poor.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

because i do think it is largely framed in the context of its perceived as being gay

i dont know about the puritans- im pretty sure they were sexually repressed (i mean, protestant ethic and all)
but i do think they were more comfortable with touch than the average american male is today
and i think it has become part of the american culture to disassociate with each other (i first heard about 'personal space' here"

from the article,
(i love that they have black folk in this, i was afraid it would not be the case.
but maybe these people just didnt have enough chairs, lol)

http://www.filmsforaction.org/news/bosom_buddies_a_photo_history_of_male_affection/

"And if you think men have always been hands-off with each other, have a look at an amazing collection of historic photos compiled by Brett and Kate McKay for an article they titled: Bosom Buddies: A Photo History of Male Affection. It’s a remarkable look at male camaraderie as expressed though physical touch in photos dating back to the earliest days of photography."

The McKays note in their article the following observation:

But at the turn of the 20th century, … Thinking of men as either “homosexual” or “heterosexual” became common. And this new category of identity was at the same time pathologized — decried by psychiatrists as a mental illness, by ministers as a perversion, and by politicians as something to be legislated against. As this new conception of homosexuality as a stigmatized and onerous identifier took root in American culture, men began to be much more careful to not send messages to other men, and to women, that they were gay. And this is the reason why, it is theorized, men have become less comfortable with showing affection towards each other over the last century.

so now i dunno.

or maybe the immigrants stop touching each other b/c they want to fit in w/Americans who think all touch is sexual (or athletic).

but that still brings us back to the homophobia/misogyny.

so, damn.

It's definitely not 100 percent
But its a large percent

Would the spread of disease and awareness also gave something to do with it?

Not denying btw
Just trying to cover all possibilities
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

even holding hands?
and its considered childish??

you have a low threshold for intimacy
and by the way, intimacy also does not equal romantic entanglement

>I just don't agree that the issue is rooted primarily in
>homophobia.

uh huh.

>And also, when we say platonic touch, what are we talking
>about?
>
>Hugs?
>
>Kisses?
>
>Holding hands?
>
>A friendly groping of balls?

^^ see? there i

never mind. LOL.

>Because part of the discomfort in that some of that coming
>from a man is that it. doesn't. feel. good.

*sigh*

>But at the same time, I just gave two examples of platonic
>touch that are accepted with love.

there are places where platonic touch goes beyond a hug and a handshake. that's the author's point.

yes, hand holding. yes, hugging. but even lounging on each other. platonically. cuddling, even. platonically. the sort of touching we see between parents and children. but when i say 'children' i really mean girls b/c boys get a lot less of it. and why? you brought it up earlier - we think we're conditioning them to deal w/a rough world. we're toughing them up. but we're also teaching them some bad lessons, i think. we're teaching them to be distant. cold. to lock their feelings away. and we teach them that touchy-feely stuff is for girls b/c we touch our girl children way after we lessen the amount we touch our boy children.

akon mentioned earlier that there are a significant number of men who won't even sit next to their men friends in a movie or on public transportation. b/c that's 'gay shit'. we need to stretch out...and we don't want our knee touching our homie's knee when we do it. b/c that's some 'gay shit'.

but the point isn't so much about homophobia as it's about what happens when boys and men are isolated from platonic touch. regardless of why it happens, it happens and it's not good. it probably does us more harm than good.

there are men around the world who don't suffer as much touch isolation as we do. and they're still tough. macho. maybe we can teach our boys to become tough men w/o isolating them from platonic touch.

The flaw in that view of a lot of that "next level" platonic touching is that (just speaking for myself), I don't do that with platonic women friends. Even as a single man I didn't do that.

So I don't disagree with the overarching point of men lacking touch due to being conditioned to be tough, I just see flaws in the argument linking it to homophobia.

i.e it's a weakness?
which is equally problematic
but honestly its code for 'that's gay'

even the whole, im teaching my son to be tough
is harmful
human beings are social creatures
and part of that is that we react positively to touch.
be it hugs, holding hands etc. and thats not gender-based
although we make it so
i feel sad for little boys who aren't held enough
because we want to toughen them against society
(even that statement is beyond pathetic to me)

like, why not fix society so we can touch our boys as we know they need it.

shit.

i agree...just reading that stuff made me sad.

it's reversing the causal relationship and possibly conflating 2 separate issues

misogyny isn't caused by homophobia...what u are describing is men not wanting to be viewed as women NOR gays...so no it's not code for gays

being perceived as feminine is not the same as being perceived as gay

some people conflate the 2...and homophobia tends to intentionally do that...it's homophobic to even suggest that feminine men = gay. Plenty of people are homophobic and do so...but even if they weren't homophobic...they would still view being seen as feminine as problematic

how far u take your social dysfunction is personal but homophobia being the cause rather than the last stop of the crazy train is assbackwards

Avoiding feminine behaviors usually is either a conservative, puritanical, and/or odd attachment to gender roles or misogyny...often those 2 sides of the coin are connected but it's not necessarily a causal relationship...the former typically causes the latter...not the other way around when that does happen

i think we are really not examining the causal relationships properly/critically

>

I dont need you to touch me and I won't touch you

If that makes me a phobe, so be it.

Men are repulsive


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

>Men are repulsive

I predict man dies out in a few centuries


does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

this is what im trying to understand

at this point its like y'all are trying hard to ensure your own extinction

i mean... even drove 80% of the women from okp.

Rest of the Male species is in a hurt locker

im just following bin's limited thought process

why would anyone want something repulsive?

Because of catcalls and such I avoided hugging non family member dudes

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

not unless i know them
and that's because when i was a kid in nairobi
and had to take the bus to school
(back when they used to pack us in the buses like sardines)
a man shoved his dick in my back and i had to stand there until i got off
man i was a kid, for gods sakes
and i was uncomfortable without even knowing for sure why.

we need to teach our boys to grow up as better men

you're the best, guy.

LULZIES@!!!

as until then I never really considered why it was that straight men
are so reflexively repulsed by any type of "touching" amongst men.

But when I first started hanging w/ them, we would greet and it always
very awkward as I would go for the typical dap and hand clasp rhythm
greeting, and they would go for the hug. Then they stopped going for the hug
because - as they stated - they didn't want to make me "feel uncomfortable."

After a few years of friendship, i became comfortable w/ greeting them with
a hug (although I don't identify culturally w/ the kiss on the cheek that they
engage in w/ other friends, even though that's a european greeting and
not a 'gay' greeting per se) - but it helped me realize that hugging another
guy isn't 'gay' - and there's nothing to be uncomfortable about except perhaps
not confronting conditioned homophobia that says men aren't allowed to hug
other men. That said, I challenge straight men like myself to ask whether they
greet their brother/father/grandfather w/ an affectionate hug - as I'd wager
many of them do.

-->

i don't hug my male relatives b/c i don't want to make them uncomfortable. b/c they know i'm gay and i don't want them to think i'm coming on to them or feeling them up for a cheap thrill. it's my own internalized homophobia that i project on them which creates distance between us. it makes me very sad.

same w/my friends - even my GAY friends. i don't hug many of them for this same reason. i said above - i have gay friends i've known for 15 yrs and i can count on 2 hands the number of times we've touched beyond a hug. and i wouldn't need all 10 fingers. that too makes me sad.

but it's just where our society is at unfortunately. At some point,
as straight men we have to get over ourselves and realize that
just because a man is gay doesn't mean he's attracted to us or
wants to cop a feel by greeting us lol - it's such a ridiculous phobia
but most straight men have it. I use to have that phobia as well but
realized that I hug women (and males in my family) with not a second
thought of whether they are trying to inappropriately grope me.

That's interesting that this applies to your gay friends as well. I never
thought about the expansiveness of homophobia as affecting how they
interact and perceive their masculinity but that's an interesting layer
I hadn't even considered.


-->

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 |
Nike, G-Star, Herschel, Adidas (Men's & Women's clothing)

Or is it just like 'nah fam we good w/ a head-nod from across the room' lol

-->

ain't gay?

Like these dudes

http://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads//2012/07/friendsportrait12.jpg

http://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads//2012/07/port1.jpg


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

ppl didn't identify as 'gay' around the times those pix were likely taken.

see: 'The Invention of Heterosexuality' - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/context/katzhistory.html

and also b/c the touch we see in those pix ain't sexual or romantic. it's something else. but that can be hard for us to identify b/c we're not used to seeing men touch each other that way UNLESS it's sexual or romantic.

that's us projecting our stuff on them.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

Or you mean stuff like resting your knee on another nigga knee under the table?

Lol no thanks. That's why you cushion your surroundings with 2 ladies or ask for a bigger table.

>
>Lol no thanks. That's why you cushion your surroundings with 2
>ladies or ask for a bigger table.

And then yall space hog like it's cute
It's not cross or close your damn legs
Keep your arms and elbows to your damn sides

That's not "manly"
It's sloppy

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>That's not "manly"
>It's sloppy


http://www.scienceofpeople.com/2012/03/why-men-take-up-so-much-space-why-men-take-up-so-much-space-why-men-take-up-so-much-space/

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/12/27/gendered-and-the-body-language-of-power/

>Lol no thanks. That's why you cushion your surroundings with 2
>ladies or ask for a bigger table.

this is just funny to me at this point

i feel like i need to make sure i sit at a distance from dudes
this post is illuminating

id be thinking im being platonic, meanwhile...

But it's hrm
More a power play
And territorial space grab
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

those dudes were all over each other in the clubs and it was what it was

He was dead set against hugging.

I tried running through some scenarios. No dice.

But then, I remember how big a Rugby fan he is.

So I say:

We've just won the world cup. Player is coming off the field, down the corridor, having just kicked the winning points. He's ecstatic, and walks up to you for a congratulatory hug.

"No, I think a handshake would do it."

0_0

A few of them *insist* on hugging me, brushing off my attempt to give dap or a handshake when I see them. I'm even caught off guard when my 25-year-old cousin bear hugs me, even though he's been doing it for years now.

It makes me sad that I would assume that they wouldn't want to embrace me, that my affection is only safe at arm's length. Homophobia has given me intimacy issues, even in my friendships.

Miss you shawty!

>Miss you shawty!

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

it's because of homophobic conditioning?

____

TWITTER : Heinz21st

IG : H_N_Z

see? i can make stupid puns too.

Which is actually wild homo if u think abt it. All that sweat, post up defense and adrenaline-induced half chubs

And I hoop like four times a week too :(

>Which is actually wild homo if u think abt it. All that
>sweat, post up defense and adrenaline-induced half chubs
>
>And I hoop like four times a week too :(

There are HS and college football teams that hold hands in the huddle after every play. A lot of teams come out of the tunnel like this as well.

http://www.stthomas.edu/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/121013mde091_012.jpg

basketball players on the bench lock arms when the game is tight.

http://cjonline.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/12097263.jpg

frat brothers touch each other too much IMO once they get a little juice in them.

http://clubs-orgs.columbusstate.edu/kappasig/IMG_9987%5B1%5D.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/73/c1/ef/73c1efda2d6580672d775c6628c08a6b.jpg

all my friends and fam back home embrace with hugs when we see each other. We have known each other damn near since birth and the first time my wife came home with me she was thrown off by how close all the men were in our town.

I wonder if this is more of a problem with kids who were raised by single mothers and didn't have uncles or father figures in their lives.

When I scroll through my friends FB photos I see a lot of touching. I don't see dudes sitting on dudes laps or holding hands but most photos are dudes with arms around each other.

article is kinda bullshit IMO.

ain't nobody skurred of no faggots!

psssh.

don't even worry it, bro. keep doing you. everything is fine in your world. you ain't missed out at all.

you saying those dudes do that off the court?


you aren't realizing that men aren't allowed to do this off the court?
no?
okay
yeah its all exaggerated
y'all are fine
go give your best guy friend a kiss and get back to me
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>you saying those dudes do that off the court?

I'm saying they do it ON court which actually airs on TV for millions to see. I typed it out for you. WTF?

>
>you aren't realizing that men aren't allowed to do this off
>the court?
>no?
>okay
>yeah its all exaggerated
>y'all are fine
>go give your best guy friend a kiss and get back to me

why do I need to kiss my friend to win this argument? That's pretty weird logic.

y'all are weird

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

hands with other adults outside of their significant other

it doesn't work


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

unless they are in a relationship with the person.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

By we I mean women
or we get touched the same...
never less

The pressure then becomes us
That isn't good either
Esp if folks buy into the men and women can't be friends aspect
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

*****************************************
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6VnExhelQ

Presenting Collective Peace.

https://www.facebook.com/CollectivePeace

On a personal level, I've always gotten proper cues on what a caring touch is supposed to be, and how to accept it. Each of my uncles are what you'd probably call a "man's man" but at the same time they knew when to show a softer side.
My close friends must have been raised the same way, or eventually came to their own conclusion, because we always greet one another with hugs and other forms of platonic touching. I think I'm a case of the inverse; I understand why some of us may be against it or not well versed, but it's not something native to my own experience.

in their own lives of the very thing you just said.

This brings into to question the validity of the "crisis" nature of the article.

it's all a ruse made up by fags to get sympathy for our plight. which isn't really a plight b/c all we have to do is pretend not to be gay and all of the drama is over.

so that's why this article cannot w/stand y'all's anecdotal evidence. b/c it's all based on a house of cards.

I'm only speaking from my own perspective, and I realize it's not prudent to make blanket statements on either side of the argument as it does nothing for the problem itself.
Also, and I realize I'm probably alone with this one, but I try to stay away from the term "homophobia" considering it's literal translation is "irrational fear of men." But at the same time I realize that there is a very palpable fear amongst some heterosexual men of being engaged by homosexual men, and how that may play into sociological aspects of child rearing. It's my normal tendency to look inside things, not at them, so it's easier for me to see a situation from different angles.

>I'm only speaking from my own perspective, and I realize it's
>not prudent to make blanket statements on either side of the
>argument as it does nothing for the problem itself.
>Also, and I realize I'm probably alone with this one, but I
>try to stay away from the term "homophobia" considering it's
>literal translation is "irrational fear of men."

'homophobia' is irrational fear of gays or homosexuality and it includes fear of being thought of as gay. and so if men avoid platonic touch (like caressing and cuddling and such) b/c they don't want to be thought of as gay that would mean homophobia prevents men from engaging in platonic touch.

But at the
>same time I realize that there is a very palpable fear amongst
>some heterosexual men of being engaged by homosexual men

right. being engaged by gays and also being mistaken as gay. that's homophobia at work.

, and
>how that may play into sociological aspects of child rearing.

which is the author's point on that issue. that this part of child rearing results in men who struggle to manage their feelings and who may be starved for platonic intimacy w/their ppl b/c of how they were raised as boys and due to the ongoing fear of being mistaken for gay.

>It's my normal tendency to look inside things, not at them, so
>it's easier for me to see a situation from different angles.

sure.

It has a good bit to do with the idea of what a "capable" man is.

A responsible, stable, level headed provider who remains above the fray to keep a roof over his and his loved ones heads.

How you feel about that as a man, is irrelevant.

Funny to see this discussion following that Ebro "no one cares about men" post a couple days back

Never mind the stuff about men having trouble managing emotions and suffering ill health as a result and the acting out that also results, handshakes and dap and family hugs mean there's no crisis. It's all good.

uh, ok.

but who cares about that?

b/c the whole thing is bullshit anyway. b/c men give each other daps and hugs and though the author claims that if not for homophobia men might be able to experience more touch among each other w/o fear it doesn't matter anyway. b/c men are doing just fine w/o more touch. so what we commit an outrageous number of sex crimes against women and other men in part b/c this author says we're starved for touch? and it doesn't matter that men are known to be awful at managing our emotions. or that men tend to suffer under the weight of seemingly unmanageable stress that results in physical ailments like heart disease and high blood pressure. none of that matters. b/c men give each other pounds and daps and bump into each other playing ball and even slap each other on the ass! so clearly this author has exaggerated a fictional problem. he's probably part of that gay agenda that seeks to have gays take over the world along w/women in an attempt to steal all of the spoils of the heterosexual male and keep them for themselves. it's all bogus.

uh
riight
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

not b/c they're skurred of ppl thinking they're gay if they sit too close to each other.

they'd have NO PROBLEM w/ppl thinking they're gay. b/c there's no such thing as homophobia (which is an irrational fear of homosexuality, including fear of being suspected as a homosexual). so it's not that these men avoid touch b/c they don't wanna be known as gay. that wouldn't bother them at all.

in fact, none of these men curb any of their behavior out of fear of being labeled as gay. b/c there's nothing wrong w/being suspected of being gay. it's totally fine.

nothng to do with any of that

motherfucker police each other ALL DAMN DAY
pause and no homo snickering
but NOPE

this article is WRONG


all these dudes are about to go kiss they main dude in the mouth right now matter o fact
just to prove you wrong and post it to instagram


stubborn asses
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

and they prefer to kiss women. NOT b/c they fear someone will think they're gay.

i mean that's just common sense.

yeah millions of men around the world kiss each other as a greeting but those men are ultra homophobic so that proves this author doesn't know what he's talking about. and anyway, these men don't kiss other men b/c it's just gross and wrong but not b/c it's gay or they don't wanna be mistaken as gay.

its understandable
unkissable mugs
only ones in the world

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

If there is a game to win I'm slapping asses, crashing the boards, fondling balls, etc


All for the sake of winning



Ain't shit to be won in a movie theatre

b/c unless y'all are competing for a win he doesn't exist.

(I'll leave u to decide whether I'm serious or not )

he won't be responding

he'l get back to you on the courts
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

ten dudes on a team spend all day touching each other.

Now, if dudes walk into a packed theatre and refuse to watch a movie because they have to sit next to each other than its a problem but that rarely happens.

when you get on an empty train and someone sits right next I bet you wonder WTF like any normal human being.

then no


y'all reaching so damn hard in here

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>then no
>
>
>y'all reaching so damn hard in here

oh the irony

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

your logic btw

because men touching in public
means sexuality

this is you

y'all keep doing this to yourselves

who has the popcorn btw?
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

movie theathers with the leather reclining seats, whooo no need to space out in those joints.

ran up in this bitch like this when they got the signal

https://38.media.tumblr.com/276606135cb8f6cedbedcbab1e8c75c1/tumblr_n43tltOWj31s2wio8o1_500.gif

.

hugs for praise and reunion or parting ways, holding hands during prayer and on sports teams, high fives, fits bumps, hand shaking, arms around shoulders when giving advice or leaning on each other for support in a crisis, etc.

This article has some merit if your look through a certain lens, but I disagree as a whole.



.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

b/c you know 'homophobia' is just a trick of the enemy. what we call 'homophobia' is actually just good doctrine. fear of homosexuality? of COURSE. we should all 'fear' sin. we should all flee from iniquity. we should all seek to rid ourselves of abomination. and if that comes in the form of men not experiencing platonic touch well that's just part of God's plan for men. God wants men to feel isolated from each other. to not be able to manage our emotions. to act out badly against others b/c we are suffering and are w/o tools to manage. b/c the point is for us to suffer so greatly we will seek God to fix it.

anyway, of course YOU disagree. it's all good.

>b/c you know 'homophobia' is just a trick of the enemy. what
>we call 'homophobia' is actually just good doctrine. fear of
>homosexuality? of COURSE. we should all 'fear' sin. we
>should all flee from iniquity. we should all seek to rid
>ourselves of abomination. and if that comes in the form of
>men not experiencing platonic touch well that's just part of
>God's plan for men. God wants men to feel isolated from each
>other. to not be able to manage our emotions. to act out
>badly against others b/c we are suffering and are w/o tools to
>manage. b/c the point is for us to suffer so greatly we will
>seek God to fix it.
>
>anyway, of course YOU disagree. it's all good.



For someone that doesn't have faith or believe in God, you're always blame Him for your issues on a subconscious level. And on a conscious level you have a strong hate for someone that you don't believe in or want to have anything to do with. That's amazing and odd.




.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

and it just can't be true because... HOMOPHOBIA!!!

no one said homophobia doesn't exist but this article isn't a good example IMO.

>and it just can't be true because... HOMOPHOBIA!!!
>
>no one said homophobia doesn't exist but this article isn't a
>good example IMO.


Men are vert communal with touch. We even tell each other we love one another all the time.





.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

he called me back heated like "IT OKAY TO SAY I LOVE YOU UNC!!! WE MEN BUT IT'S OK"

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

but you know, that was just a preemptive strike to cover your tracks for this article

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

Bc I clearly hate God about as much as I hate Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. So much hate must mean there is a God.

But back to this article - the author says the touch men get now is generally not enough to help men address our emotional needs and that causes us to act out and to suffer bad health. I think that's bogus bc the premise is that we avoid touch bc we fear being thought of as gay. But it's all bogus bc there's no fear of being thought of as gay and any fear is just good sense bc being gay is an abomination according to the Easter Bunny. So it's all good.

>Bc I clearly hate God about as much as I hate Santa Claus or
>the Tooth Fairy. So much hate must mean there is a God.
>

^^ A true struggle response ^^

>But back to this article - the author says the touch men get
>now is generally not enough to help men address our emotional
>needs and that causes us to act out and to suffer bad health.
>I think that's bogus bc the premise is that we avoid touch bc
>we fear being thought of as gay. But it's all bogus bc there's
>no fear of being thought of as gay and any fear is just good
>sense bc being gay is an abomination according to the Easter
>Bunny. So it's all good.

That dude can't speak for all men and he has not clear research support for his claims and this has nothing to do with homophobia.




.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

2 drinks and a white dude wants to hug it out with complete strangers.

she believes male hip-hop artists are doing TOO much homie love these days, with songs like "My Nigga" and all that.

is a direct translation for my best friend paul

the amount of physical affection shown in the same video is overwhelming evidence
its not over testosteroned out with money flashing, jail time, cars, rims,

its a pure ode to friendship in this purest sense
lots of hugs talking about feelings and emotional support

that kiss at the end though
that really rocked me
y'all right

y'all so sensitive and in touch with yourselves
my bad
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

got any more?
besides the ones already mention in the article?

y'all walk down the street holding hands with your boys?
kiss your dude on the cheek for greeting?
sit in each other laps if seats run out?
sit next to each other in the movie theatre?
how about at dinner?
side by side voluntarily and let the ladies chat and YALL suggest it because y'all want to talk face to face

yep men are maaad chummy
this article is so damn wrong
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

starts with a smack/shake on the hand, and ends with both arms open.

i don't need to hold their hand.
i don't need to kiss them.

that's not this culture.

...

matter fact, i got a running 'game' with one cat around the way.

if either of us isn't watching or paying attention. we'll smack and squeeze the other bamma on the ass.

it started from when he started dippin.

niggas get reeeeal touchy feely off the dippers.

he felt us up, we get his ass back.

the nerve of us.

your eyes looked over the ass of a female that walked by

touching moment i know

yes y'all have great examples
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

We're telling you that we hold hands in prayer, we hug when we greet, we hug and comfort each other in times of trouble, we throw our arms around each other's shoulders in camaraderie..

But it's "Do you kiss??? Do you walk down the street holding hands???"

I don't kiss or hold hands with my platonic women friends either.

Sorry if that doesn't work for you or fit the narrative you are pushing for.

or it isn't real
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

ALOT

wait show me where the tears begin and talk about they mutual affection is shown through compassion and the ability to express their feelings and make mistakes without fear of judgment



yes the American Male is FILLED with love for their fellow man
it shows in this primmest example the trap video
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

we may not make a spectacle of it.

you know what happens to a nigga who cries in the middle of his relationship, in front of the women.

you willing to type about that reinforcement?

show me how it feels

let those tears flow

no shame right?

prove me wrong
y'all feel this need to
take it all the way
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

you don't have to do this today to prove it!
you can show us yesterdays examples

i'll make it easier
the past week

y'all do this SO regularly
it should be very easy
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

when we meet and when we leave

We don't film it tho...

>when we meet and when we leave
>
>We don't film it tho...



ask folks if theres a pic of them hugging dey mama though
betchu theres at the very least ONE
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

this some clown ass logic

Matter of fact I just had a fraternity reunion and I must have said and heard I Love you man about 30 times in one night. All while giving the fraternity handshake and a strong hug.

But this part is so unnecssary
"Think, leaning on someone for a few minutes, holding hands, rubbing their back or sitting close together not out of necessity but out of choice."

We have chicks for that kinda contact.
I did notice while in India that the men are very affectionate towards each other. And personal space is not as important as it is in America. But over there the men tend to interact with females way later in life. Sometimes not till marriage.

because of hip hop culture, you even see old white men doing it, 20+ years ago you didn't see shit like that.

Plus have you been in a church recently? they hold hands and hug the whole damn time!

Do you kiss your male boss good morning?

DO you lick your friends face when you greet him?

lol

please!


prove to us how y'all show your love everydamn day

=)

not like there isn't the internet
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

http://img1.nymag.com/imgs/slideshows/2012/03/political-hugs/bush-mccain.nocrop.w670.h529.2x.jpg
https://kaystreet.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/bush-obama-hug-friends.jpg
http://media.cleveland.com/open_impact/photo/11993823-large.jpg
http://www.fishandcheese.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/bidenHuggingMan.jpg
https://michaelshannon.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/crist-obama.jpg
http://www.foboblo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DSC_0244.jpg
http://images.wisegeek.com/two-men-hugging.jpg
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/612173312_MTqSu-O.jpg
http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/bromance.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/17/article-1321390-0BA6DC80000005DC-362_468x349.jpg

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maitlandquitmeyer/hug-it-out#.goKkaQJ5VP

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/02/brothers-in-arms-over-man-hugs

where's your instagram doe!!!

and his boys


its SO natural!
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

.

men are now more in touch with themselves and in physical contact with each other more than ever!

yes
absolutely


now y'all can prove us wrong and instagram this awesome period of time in which men do it
(not in sports)
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

American men are soooooo affectionate towards each other.

>American men are soooooo affectionate towards each other.

so much so that asking for a pic
gets me pics of famous people and politicians
knowing politicians always show true affection
and an angry i was to tap to them
because naturally men being affectionate and recording it is sexual

i can't with these contrary so scared of the homophobic label ass mofos
i just...
really?
it was going so well until the insane clown posse showed up
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I played basketball for up to six hours a day as a kid (was on ball squads). Literally up to 1/4 of my day was spent touching other men (and ONLY men... weren't any women at the ball court Saturday morning in July), and that's not enough.

The competitive/cooperative dynamic is one of the main ways that men in the US relate to each other, but since it's some testosterone man shit that *isn't* feminine then it's a target for attack and dismissal.

Intellectual dishonesty.

>
>Intellectual dishonesty.

but ya'll show and prove
mad because thats the only instance y'all deem it acceptable to record such instances
i aint doing this to you
y'all doing it to yourselves
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

http://blogsurface.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/stephhhh-e1411241151610.jpg?824132

yup

Where we get to be loud. Pound our chest. Boys will be boys shit


There ain't many other places as adults we can get all that out

>Where we get to be loud. Pound our chest. Boys will be boys
>shit
>
>
>There ain't many other places as adults we can get all that
>out



*pops popcorn*


y'all do this to yourselves

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

You clearly seem to know something about it

50 replies deep in here

apparently your dudes disagree with you
your argument isn't with me


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

i love sports, but that's how you know athletics wasn't instilled in me at an early age. it took me a while to get used to it. i help coach high school ball. i don't slap em in the ass and say "good job!" but i've had it done it to me. i will hug my players tho.

high school girls athletics? i'm staying away from it...

i mean, any lack of male physical contact is purely my choice. it has nothing to do with fear of being labeled gay.

so yeah, just gonna sit this one out and try to figure out the rules of the game from the sideline.

maybe there's nothing to get. no problem at all. all made up.

the stuff about boys not being instructed properly on handling emotions. the stuff about men acting out b/c they can't handle emotions. the stuff about men keeping their feelings bottled in part b/c as boys they're taught to ignore their feelings.

it's all b/s. maybe. i dunno.

(which I agree we don't teach boys/men well enough about dealing with)...

...have to do with the lack of male touching being a symptom of rampant homophobia?

those two things are completely separate things to me.

need a hug?
find a male friend
i mean you do it so often
you should be alright soon
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

daily right?
a regular thing right?

instagram isn't kodak
it won't take a week to process you know

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

so we know its real

instagram has sound too!
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

if its a "show"
then dude
nah you don't

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Because another dude getting too close makes me physically uncomfortable I'm a homophobe


Right

-->

Not sure if anyone pointed that out yet.

if she was at a gay party, or if the majority of guys somewhere were gay, because they would ALWAYS hug when they saw each other, with no handshake or anything.

I started noticing it with certain crowds, and she was 100% right. My boy came to an event with me, and was saying he got the vibe that it was a lot of gay guys there, but that they weren't obviously gay...so I told him the hug thing...and literally 30 seconds later, he saw two dudes hug, and we fell out laughing.

But with that, I have a homeboy who's straight, and he's always like "man, give me a hug!" on some bromance shit, and it feels weird now. Especially since dude got a Miguel cut. My 6'4 320 lb cousin always wants to give me hugs too, just to enforce his size LOL.

All gay settings, the hug hello. I wish more guys were like what sowhat is describing in here becuz I do not like all that damn hugging ( I don't like hugging women either) and guys will be offended if u don't hug hello. My close friends already know and they will tell ppl "u kno prince don't like hugging" lol but it's so real

Even though I always figured it was because he's still more bisexual and halfway closeted it seems.

The levels of denial and the examples cited to debunk the article are clearly proof.

Pretty much no-one in here has the level of contact comfort exemplified in the photos, let alone the contact that is common between straight men in other cultures. It's telling that a lot of the counters to this cite scenarios where the other party is a stranger, when that's clearly not the kind of contact being talked about in the article.

There's a clear connection between quality of physical contact and quality of health. People would rather not be healthy because... just uncomfortable?

Don't buy that. It's interesting that people can't really put their finger on why they're uncomfortable with contact, and why they'd rather continue to be isolated (however relative that term might be to their circumstance) than adapt to something (more) contact friendly and in the long term healthier.

>The levels of denial and the examples cited to debunk the
>article are clearly proof.
>
>Pretty much no-one in here has the level of contact comfort
>exemplified in the photos, let alone the contact that is
>common between straight men in other cultures. It's telling
>that a lot of the counters to this cite scenarios where the
>other party is a stranger, when that's clearly not the kind of
>contact being talked about in the article.

where the other party is a stranger? Huh? Most people are citing their own experience.

I think it's weird that you have to sit on a mans lap or hold hands in public to prove you weren't robbed of touch

>
>There's a clear connection between quality of physical contact
>and quality of health. People would rather not be healthy
>because... just uncomfortable?


>
>Don't buy that. It's interesting that people can't really put
>their finger on why they're uncomfortable with contact, and
>why they'd rather continue to be isolated (however relative
>that term might be to their circumstance) than adapt to
>something (more) contact friendly and in the long term
>healthier.
>

>
>where the other party is a stranger? Huh? Most people are
>citing their own experience.

You brought up a stranger on a train, sitting on a co-worker's lap, kissing a boss, and licking a friend on the face.

Let's see, 3/4 of those responses are either stranger or relationships where the familiarity is distant enough that it has no bearing on the kind of relationships the article is focusing on.

And licking a friend's face? No bearing on the kind of contact the article is focusing on.

Also, trying to use personal experience to debunk something that someone has put actual research into is a bit hypocritical, as is then trying to state that your personal experience rates more highly than the experience of others who reach the opposite conclusion.

>
>I think it's weird that you have to sit on a mans lap or hold
>hands in public to prove you weren't robbed of touch

Why is it weird? Other straight men in this world have that touch, or at the least would be comfortable with it. You don't. There are health implications. You've been robbed.

you really ignored all the other post where I mentioned hugging friends and family?

really? REALLY?

F.O.H.

>you really ignored all the other post where I mentioned
>hugging friends and family?
>
>really? REALLY?
>
>F.O.H.

If you weren't busy try to plead out of what you said in 157 and 184 so you could get to your FOH cop out, you'd have seen.

can't be used because it doesn't fit your narrative.

dudes in here have opened up but it's all lies because you guys have all the answers and need us to be phobes.

Our words and experiences can't satisfy you because you need this to be true.

take a peak in here for more examples:
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12763452&mesg_id=12763452&page=

>can't be used because it doesn't fit your narrative.

That's actually what you're doing. But it's wrong when you think we're doing it? OK.

>
>dudes in here have opened up but it's all lies because you
>guys have all the answers and need us to be phobes.

Where did I say it was all lies?

>
>Our words and experiences can't satisfy you because you need
>this to be true.

As if none of us have comparable words and experiences, and it can't somehow apply that those won't satisfy you because you need this not to be true? There's that good patriarchal double standard again.

>
>take a peak in here for more examples:
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12763452&mesg_id=12763452&page=
>

That's a pretty sparsely populated post in comparison to all the "no homos" I've seen on the boards.

cmon son

i actually could post pictures...

not just of me and my boys over the years

and men are far less likely to take those types of pics btw

but it's getting ridiculous...

yes, men do get touch isolated...

yes, sometimes homophobia plays a role in that dysfunction...

no, it's not a causal relationship

some contrary ass mofos on here

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

"these niggas getting hugs from actual men in real life"


ole lying ass niggas. It's lies, all lies...

snap chat if the thought of putting this online disturbs you


*snickers*

meanwhile

i hugged a man and a woman yesterday meeting up for lunch
platonically
AND have a picture

now whatcha gone do?
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I just wish I videotaped my daps and hugs because lord knows it didn't happen unless lfresh gets to see it.

this shit has your ass up in arms


and not in at the arms of another man getting a hug
clearly

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

h:did you take a photo?
m:umm.. nah, nah... but bring it in here again my thumb was uhhh.. (click)
h: dude, did you just
me: nah, bro nah.. how about them Charlotte Hornets?

#iCant

when the hug takes place.

I don't even think we are supposed to be married.

i c you trying to worm your way out of this shit

lookityou bending over backwards


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

i can tell you can't handle all of this *body rolls mind*

"weirdness"

case give your friend at least an asterisk hug
he seems to be coming apart at the seams on this
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

i <3 u
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

this article resonates with me, especially having worked with teenagers for 8 years or so. i was born in the philippines and when i moved here to california at a very young age, i had to learn new cultural norms.

in the philippines it's normal to see young men walking around with their arms around each other in a platonic way. it's normal to see men with no shirts on hugging each other or take pics together. there have been 2 female philippine presidents in my lifetime.

i cringe at work every time i see students make physical contact with (female) staff but a part of me says fuck it, it's normal and not sexual. they probably don't hug their parents. but i don't fight social norms; just bring attention to them. there's a BIG difference when a male school staff hugs a female student. there's a BIG difference when a male students screams "i love you" to a female teacher. women staff get probation for fucking students. i'd probably get prison time if i texted a female student "wyd? (emoticon)" past 9pm. i'll tell you this: most teen girls are aware of the double standard and love to test limits.

i went to europe for the first time in 2014. it kinda re-opened my eyes to how american sexuality/norms are different. you know...how it's "wrong" when pilipino males show affection to each other cuz we're a dirty 3rd world country, but "elegant" when french or italian guys kiss each other on the cheek to greet each other hello...

i have 2 nephews, 1.5 and 2.5. i'm very affectionate with them. i can't wait til they're a little older and stronger so i can be more physical with them. i want to encourage sports and athletic competition with them...something my parents/aunts/uncles never really instilled in us.

great read...i'm just ranting imcomplete thoughts...

>i went to europe for the first time in 2014. it kinda
>re-opened my eyes to how american sexuality/norms are
>different. you know...how it's "wrong" when pilipino males
>show affection to each other cuz we're a dirty 3rd world
>country, but "elegant" when french or italian guys kiss each
>other on the cheek to greet each other hello...


yep

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

i hardly see straight males under 28 that cross their legs.

.

i so appreciate them on the subways

and they are in their thirties at this point

but yes for the most part you would be correct

the whole sloppy exaggerated spread out thing is of the moment i guess

wait it might be a class thing as well
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

what do you do with your penis?

my outer ankle rests on top of the opposite knee.

dangle your foot in the aisle in the way of passing traffic.

but I have seen plenty of straight males cross their legs the other way... not sure how but it's done.

sometimes i sit with the full cross, but it can get uncomfortable.

thats considered "manly"
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

non-family member...

lately, I can't lie...lol.

We've become closer as we've both made commitments to pursuing our dreams. So we have conversations throughout the week about God, anxiety (which we both struggle with), progress etc etc.

Our conversations have been VERY valuable and we've been very open to how much we appreciate each other for it.

therapy for depression, etc...

Dude just called me up one day and put it all out there. Pleaded for us to call each other more often because life is hard on a brother and he even revealed suicidal thoughts.

So now when we get together on the phone it's still jokes, reminiscing, etc but we make sure to set aside a few minutes ask each other about real life shit.

i'm sure it's stressful on your end just being there for your friend but i know he appreciates it.

when I told them they were going to be uncles.

one of my best friends lost a close friend during the holidays. he called me out the blue, in tears, and told me he loved me, etc etc. he taught me a lot too, and it was big for him to show vulnerability to me.

he still has his faults and sometimes i can't stand him, but i'm always gonna remember him calling me in december.

we go between calls, most men pick up right where we left off.

I always tell my homeboy I love him after our intense Saturday weight training at the gym. I tell all the fellas at my church I love em. We too old to be worrying about not telling someone you love that you love them is the way I look at it.

it's refreshing to express love to other men on here.

when i get off work tho! it's back to my cave.

or rubbed his head?

his feet?

his back?

when is the last time y'all cuddled?

or sat on a couch w/your legs draped on each other?

^ b/c that's some of what the author is talking about. that's the sort of platonic touch he claims men have lost.

maybe you haven't lost it.

i've "massaged" the kids i coach before tho. i quickly show them where to apply pressure, how much pressure to apply. all the other stuff you listed have sexual connotations in this country tho.

ecstasy.

so it's bigger than homophobia

nobody should be arguing that men have intimacy issues in general

using homophobia as the cause is the problem bc it's nowhere near comprehensive enough and their are simpler better fitting causes

so it's bigger than homophobia

nobody should be arguing that men have intimacy issues in general

using homophobia as the cause is the problem bc it's nowhere near comprehensive enough and their are simpler better fitting causes

so it's bigger than homophobia

nobody should be arguing that men have intimacy issues in general

using homophobia as the cause is the problem bc it's nowhere near comprehensive enough and their are simpler better fitting causes

at xmas.

An uncle i didn't know told me I love you. Nigga, what? Nah bruh, I don't love nobody.

We take our personal space tooooo serious to ever even think of, "leaning on someone for a few minutes (only allowed while posing for pictures), holding hands, rubbing their back or sitting close together not out of necessity but out of choice."

Fuck your fort!

affectionate to the point where they were super touchy feely?
What if they were holding hands all the time?
Hugging alot
Laying their heads in one another's laps
I mean just like you see girlfriends doing.

I already know a couple of yall here would be like "nah they gay".
"down low" dudes got alotta women shook.
Hell I was asked about my sexuality by a woman because I don't care to catch football on sunday's.
Now you couple that with the fact that I hug everybody in the room, regardless of gender,
race or anything else, and I KNOW alotta women take a step back until they catch me
watching a woman's ass walk by or something.

I bring up these points because in reality, alotta the things we do and don't do, as men,
are determined by how women feel about them. I've personally grown out of that (or at least
realized it doesn't serve me very well). So on top of men not trying to appear gay or
trying to appear uber masculine, I think the role that women play in why men do that
is MUCH bigger than you realize. Men assert dominance because they know women
go for it, and often the more masculine he seems, the more women will readily deal with him.
The vast majority of the time, that stuff is about "the hoes" as they say.
I don't wanna justify men running after unevolved women, but alotta women who claim
to be evolved be on that tho.

So as we teach boys to be more affectionate or that it's ok to touch, we have to teach
girls the same thing, or it won't be long before the boys abandon that concept when
all the girls go for the homophobe isn't touching other dudes.

yes women are affected
yes they jump in to police as well

ya'll though take that ball and run with it most of the time
sayings and tags usually adopted by y'all

batty boy
no homo
pause

women didn't invent that but yes they run with it as well because
patriarchy

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

I'm just saying we have to understand the motivation for it isn't always other men.
Regardless of why women participate, the fact is that they participate, and that becomes
part of the problem.
As an individual, I'm fighting hypermasculinity as much as you are,
I take action against it in daily interactions.
I'm saying that it seems the duty of whoever has a problem with it to do the same.

you say it isn't
but much like white folks stay in black folks convos when race comes up
stridently dodging on some its in the past!
black folks are also racist!

the invariable dude loves to pop up in the convo
"but women too"


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

"And its just as likely to be a woman as to be a man who enforces the homophobic/touch averse stigma."

>the invariable dude loves to pop up in the convo
>"but women too"
>

>"And its just as likely to be a woman as to be a man who
>enforces the homophobic/touch averse stigma."
>
>>the invariable dude loves to pop up in the convo
>>"but women too"



now look at daryl's comments in here
you want to reinforce Darryl?

you see legs ponying up below?

you don't see the pattern?

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>>"And its just as likely to be a woman as to be a man who
>>enforces the homophobic/touch averse stigma."
>>
>>>the invariable dude loves to pop up in the convo
>>>"but women too"
>
>
>
>now look at daryl's comments in here
>you want to reinforce Darryl?
>
>you see legs ponying up below?
>
>you don't see the pattern?


Lol, I mean there's a reason I didn't cosign everything he said in here.
That reason is that I don't agree.
I think we just have to know we all have a role in dismantling this particular stigma.

>I think we just have to know we all have a role in dismantling
>this particular stigma.


but note
me saying i'm fine with it
aint doing shit to get legs to hug you
i'm just sayin
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

the very thing you have a problem with being mentioned now?

Bye Felicia.

Black people are racist too
Blahblahblah
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

With race, we aren't talking about biological factors.
With gender we are, so it's difficult to draw the line.
Some women are turned on by men who exhibit these characteristics.
Do we blame patriarchy or her biology?
I know many women like masculinity because of their biology,
but it's difficult to draw the line on where her determination of what constitutes masculinity
is stemming from.
What turns you on or moves you isn't always (I'd be willing to say it usually isn't) determined
by culture... which may cause you to fight it, but it doesn't change it.

So the comparison to racial discussions doesn't hold up here, and only serves
to shut down the conversation, in this particular instance.

If we were talking about how ppl are sexist without realizing it just like they can be
racist without realizing it, that would be a point of intersectionality. We just happen
to be a point that doesn't intersect.

>With race, we aren't talking about biological factors.
>With gender we are, so it's difficult to draw the line.

Gender is socialized period

>Some women are turned on by men who exhibit these
>characteristics.
>Do we blame patriarchy or her biology?
>I know many women like masculinity because of their biology,
>but it's difficult to draw the line on where her determination
>of what constitutes masculinity
>is stemming from.
>What turns you on or moves you isn't always (I'd be willing to
>say it usually isn't) determined
>by culture... which may cause you to fight it, but it doesn't
>change it.
>
>So the comparison to racial discussions doesn't hold up here,
>and only serves
>to shut down the conversation, in this particular instance.


Yes because you are going down a well trodden path which only serves to derail

>If we were talking about how ppl are sexist without realizing
>it just like they can be
>racist without realizing it, that would be a point of
>intersectionality. We just happen
>to be a point that doesn't intersect.


Wrong


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>Yes because you are going down a well trodden path which only
>serves to derail


That's false.
You may have seen people bring women into this discussion to derail it.
That's not why I brought it up.

We all have a responsibility. That's all it's about.

It's not about denying the responsibility of men.
I do think it's delusional to ignore the immediate role many women can play in dismantling
this particular stigma, especially considering the number of boys and girls who are currently
being raised by single women.

Men need to be stay around, men need to stop being phobes, etc etc. The previous
statement doesn't diminish any of that.

>yes women are affected
>yes they jump in to police as well
>
>ya'll though take that ball and run with it most of the time
>sayings and tags usually adopted by y'all
>
>batty boy
>no homo
>pause
>
>women didn't invent that but yes they run with it as well
>because
>patriarchy

And I don't agree, because it's always coming from a different place.

I feel a lot of the tags men place on other men is due to competitive nature. Not just the gay slurs, but even calling men soft, punks, etc etc. I'm not really sure that women view men in these ways solely because men influenced them to.

folks aren't that complex and our society have deep rooted issues that they avoid regularly

i didn't tell dudes to come in here copping pleas

but no

its women
and yeah black folks are racist too
*sigh*
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

The original question made sense...without placing blame on where the ideals come from, it was just asking what it asked.

It's surely a combination of how both sexes act about it all, if you ask me. The fact that straight men are competing with each other, vs women choosing men, just makes the attitudes about gay men different to me, regardless of where the root of the homophobia, or any negative thoughts against gays may come from.

His question made me remember a party I did last year, where a good number of my homegirls came (actually, two parties with similar crowds)...and while the straight guys who came felt like "man, it's some fine girls here!" and nothing else...the girls ALL complained hard because of the number of gay guys there. And I don't think it was necessarily them being homophobic, but more so them being single and wanting to choose guys, and seeing that barely any of them were paying attention to them. There were a few who were blatantly homophobic about it, but the rest just felt discouraged.

>The original question made sense...without placing blame on
>where the ideals come from, it was just asking what it asked.

theres all that
*waves up above*
happening up there with the usual homophobic and sexist suspects
you want to think this is innocuous
this is different
its not


>It's surely a combination of how both sexes act about it all,
>if you ask me. The fact that straight men are competing with
>each other, vs women choosing men, just makes the attitudes
>about gay men different to me, regardless of where the root of
>the homophobia, or any negative thoughts against gays may come
>from.

again understand the base of all of this is this wonderful mix of racism, sexist and homophobia that our society perpetuates and frankly women nor black started either
but yes they perpetuate both but mostly are the victims of both

so again while women reinforce the standard
men made it

>His question made me remember a party I did last year, where a
>good number of my homegirls came (actually, two parties with
>similar crowds)...and while the straight guys who came felt
>like "man, it's some fine girls here!" and nothing else...the
>girls ALL complained hard because of the number of gay guys
>there. And I don't think it was necessarily them being
>homophobic, but more so them being single and wanting to
>choose guys, and seeing that barely any of them were paying
>attention to them. There were a few who were blatantly
>homophobic about it, but the rest just felt discouraged.

thats not nice
this does not negate the article
its certainly does not negate the over whelming influence of patriarchy
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

wtf wrong wichu bruh

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

you throw "that" around awfully loosely
and we not tight like that
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Much different world from the folks most of us interact with outside of here.

>affectionate to the point where they were super touchy
>feely?
>What if they were holding hands all the time?
>Hugging alot
>Laying their heads in one another's laps
>I mean just like you see girlfriends doing.
>
>I already know a couple of yall here would be like "nah they
>gay".
>"down low" dudes got alotta women shook.
>Hell I was asked about my sexuality by a woman because I don't
>care to catch football on sunday's.
>Now you couple that with the fact that I hug everybody in the
>room, regardless of gender,
>race or anything else, and I KNOW alotta women take a step
>back until they catch me
>watching a woman's ass walk by or something.
>
>I bring up these points because in reality, alotta the things
>we do and don't do, as men,
>are determined by how women feel about them. I've personally
>grown out of that (or at least
>realized it doesn't serve me very well). So on top of men not
>trying to appear gay or
>trying to appear uber masculine, I think the role that women
>play in why men do that
>is MUCH bigger than you realize. Men assert dominance because
>they know women
>go for it, and often the more masculine he seems, the more
>women will readily deal with him.
>The vast majority of the time, that stuff is about "the hoes"
>as they say.
>I don't wanna justify men running after unevolved women, but
>alotta women who claim
>to be evolved be on that tho.
>
>So as we teach boys to be more affectionate or that it's ok to
>touch, we have to teach
>girls the same thing, or it won't be long before the boys
>abandon that concept when
>all the girls go for the homophobe isn't touching other
>dudes.
>
>
>

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

the one where soldiers give each other back rubs?

b/c the platonic touch the author says men have lost doesn't include the handshakes and pounds and dap and hugs we see among close friends and family. he's saying there's more platonic touch available and possibly even needed that men are missing. he says men miss it b/c among adult men most reserve the more extended soft touch for romance and sex. and b/c that kind of touch is reserved for sex if it's exchanged between men it's often thought of as 'gay'. which is a reason men tend to avoid it among each other. not b/c they're bad ppl but b/c they've been conditioned to avoid touching other men except during athletics or simple greetings. but they don't exactly be laid up on each other offering rubs and caresses.

i haven't seen an Army chow line either so i dunno what kind of extended platonic touching goes on there. but if it involves relatively soft touch w/caress that's intended to communicate care and support and doesn't resemble the sort of athletic touching the article contemplates then i'm all ears.

You are wrong. Men haven't lost anything regarding touch.


.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

when trying to get some food.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

Withe Hetero Men saying the article is WACK and the non hetero folks trying to validate the Wackness.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

b/c if the article is bogus you and most men must exchange back rubs and other soft caress w/each other.

so when is the last time you did that?

or when is the last time you rubbed your ace boon coon's head?

have you cuddled w/a buddy lately?

again, if the article is bogus it's b/c most men are out there engaging in this kind of platonic touch.

so what about you?

>b/c if the article is bogus you and most men must exchange
>back rubs and other soft caress w/each other.
>
>so when is the last time you did that?
>


Last time my bot was crying over a loss of life.


>or when is the last time you rubbed your ace boon coon's
>head?
>


Men only want their barber to touch their hair.



>have you cuddled w/a buddy lately?
>


Men not cuddling had nothing to do with the whole gist if the article.


>again, if the article is bogus it's b/c most men are out there
>engaging in this kind of platonic touch.
>
>so what about you?


The article is wack.



.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

>The article is wack.

the classic "the message isn't being delivered in the exact way i would like" tactic

because if the article wasn't "sack" you would be on board
as you have proven so damn often and have a great reputation for doing so on here
/sarcasm
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>Last time my bot was crying over a loss of life.

So that's it? It's cool if that's the case but it supports the author's point.

>Men only want their barber to touch their hair.

That also supports the author's point.

>Men not cuddling had nothing to do with the whole gist if the
>article.

Yeah that was the point - that's the kind of platonic touch the author says men are missing.

>The article is wack.

I'm not surprised you think so.

>
>>Last time my bot was crying over a loss of life.
>
>So that's it? It's cool if that's the case but it supports the
>author's point.
>

I don't think so. You seem to think that men are losing something just because we don't like to cuddle up with each other and talk about out day.

Boy Bye.


>>Men only want their barber to touch their hair.
>
>That also supports the author's point.
>

But that doesn't rove the article.



>>Men not cuddling had nothing to do with the whole gist if
>the
>>article.
>
>Yeah that was the point - that's the kind of platonic touch
>the author says men are missing.
>


I diesagree.


>>The article is wack.
>
>I'm not surprised you think so.
>
>


I'm not the only one that thinks the article is WACK.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

>
>I don't think so. You seem to think that men are losing
>something just because we don't like to cuddle up with each
>other and talk about out day.

I'm sure YOU don't.

>But that doesn't rove the article.

Sure.

>I diesagree.

Of course you do.

>I'm not the only one that thinks the article is WACK.

Okay.

https://youtu.be/ZpXoCmwZANU?t=128

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkGwI7nGehA

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAAbbuEpnw

nothing happens, just do it.

it just makes discussions devolve into individuals behaviour being used to
disprove general observations
it doesnt work that way.
of course there are deviations from what's stated, or there are outliers
it doesnt disregard the general trend/behaviour

and i dont think anyone can discount that in the u.s men are less comfortable
with physical contact - in a normalized context
and we see it all the time in discussions even here on okp.

perhaps you feel someway about it being linked to a concept of acceptable masculinity or whatever
but i think its foolish to act like it does not exist.

Daps? Hugs? So? The article is about touch that goes beyond greetings. A few dudes say 'I love you' to their homies. Great - that's not what the article is about. And even if those anecdotes challenged the article those isolated stories are cute but the larger point remains - most men don't touch other men platonically (beyond greetings) largely bc that touch is reserved for sex or romance. That's where the fear of being mistaken for gay comes in - and it doesn't make these dudes bad ppl it is a result of conditioning. But it's clear - we don't cuddle or hold hands or exchange rubs with our homies as a result of socialization and conditioning.

First of all, the hyperbolic title, "How Homophobia Has Robbed ALL Men of Touch" chips away at the credibility of it from the start.

Second, there is no data to suggest the specific TYPES of touch required to prevent the isolation that is spoken of.

Third, the article provides no statistics regarding current percentages of the different types of male touch considered acceptable by other men. No data regarding how those men were raised (i.e. the level of affection), or how men are currently raising their own sons.

The supported suggestion is that GENERAL lack of touch leads to the isolation result. I don't believe anyone here has disputed that GENERAL conclusion.

What has happened here is that you have men saying we don't lack touch of other men, we just choose not to touch ANY platonic friends (male or female) like THAT.

There is no study to suggest that hugging male friends, holding hands in prayer with male friends, etc. etc. is somehow insufficient, however somehow we are being challenged to show that we're comfortable doing what is being displayed in the photos, otherwise what we're saying isn't valid.

There is no data to suggest that male isolation is a direct result of not demonstrating the "platonic touch" displayed in those photos.

None.

That is what is being challenged here. Not the entire premise of male isolation.

>First of all, the hyperbolic title, "How Homophobia Has
>Robbed ALL Men of Touch" chips away at the credibility of it
>from the start.
>
>Second, there is no data to suggest the specific TYPES of
>touch required to prevent the isolation that is spoken of.
>
>Third, the article provides no statistics regarding current
>percentages of the different types of male touch considered
>acceptable by other men. No data regarding how those men were
>raised (i.e. the level of affection), or how men are currently
>raising their own sons.
>
>The supported suggestion is that GENERAL lack of touch leads
>to the isolation result. I don't believe anyone here has
>disputed that GENERAL conclusion.
>
>What has happened here is that you have men saying we don't
>lack touch of other men, we just choose not to touch ANY
>platonic friends (male or female) like THAT.
>
>There is no study to suggest that hugging male friends,
>holding hands in prayer with male friends, etc. etc. is
>somehow insufficient, however somehow we are being challenged
>to show that we're comfortable doing what is being displayed
>in the photos, otherwise what we're saying isn't valid.
>
>There is no data to suggest that male isolation is a direct
>result of not demonstrating the "platonic touch" displayed in
>those photos.
>
>None.
>
>That is what is being challenged here. Not the entire premise
>of male isolation.

This makes me proud that I'm not the only one that noticed this.

is that what all this wholly unnecessary pushback and rah-rah is about?

it seems to me that b/c *I* posted it y'all have to attack the article b/c you think i'm adopting the author's position and calling y'all out as bad ppl b/c you don't engage in platonic touch as described by the author.

if that's the case y'all are completely off base. b/c that was not my intention at all. i didn't read this article as an attack on individuals - it's more an attack on homophobia as a concept. not unlike the many think pieces out there that call out other phobias and isms like racism and sexism and chauvinism and xenophobia and misogyny et al. the author's point is that homophobia works to keep men isolated from touch - not that men who don't engage in platonic touch are homophobes (though the 2 aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but i digress). as i read the article it says the men who are isolated from touch are relatively blameless - the avoidance of touch is a result of their conditioning. the guys can't help it. and when i posted this article that's what i thought - that the men who avoid touch b/c of homophobia aren't necessarily to be blamed for it. hell, when i read the article i immediately identified and i don't think i'm a bad person b/c i avoid touching other men for the most part b/c of my own internalized homophobia. i'm sad for me and for other men but i'm not angry about it.

>is that what all this wholly unnecessary pushback and rah-rah
>is about?
>
>it seems to me that b/c *I* posted it y'all have to attack the
>article b/c you think i'm adopting the author's position and
>calling y'all out as bad ppl b/c you don't engage in platonic
>touch as described by the author.
>
>if that's the case y'all are completely off base. b/c that
>was not my intention at all. i didn't read this article as an
>attack on individuals - it's more an attack on homophobia as a
>concept. not unlike the many think pieces out there that call
>out other phobias and isms like racism and sexism and
>chauvinism and xenophobia and misogyny et al. the author's
>point is that homophobia works to keep men isolated from touch
>- not that men who don't engage in platonic touch are
>homophobes (though the 2 aren't necessarily mutually
>exclusive, but i digress). as i read the article it says the
>men who are isolated from touch are relatively blameless - the
>avoidance of touch is a result of their conditioning. the
>guys can't help it. and when i posted this article that's
>what i thought - that the men who avoid touch b/c of
>homophobia aren't necessarily to be blamed for it. hell, when
>i read the article i immediately identified and i don't think
>i'm a bad person b/c i avoid touching other men for the most
>part b/c of my own internalized homophobia. i'm sad for me
>and for other men but i'm not angry about it.
>

It comes across as an attack on individuals. As much shit as y'all give Case of his agenda it's clear that you're on a similar track but go about it a different way.

It's an attack on these individuals whether or blatant or not. Just because someone doesn't like other men touching them then they're homophobic according to the article. That's not the case at all.

>It comes across as an attack on individuals.

^ this was not my agenda w/this post.

i posted this article b/c i agreed w/the attack on 'HOMOPHOBIA' as a concept. i didn't post this as a dig on any individual here.

As much shit as
>y'all give Case of his agenda it's clear that you're on a
>similar track but go about it a different way.

sure, but see above.

>It's an attack on these individuals whether or blatant or not.

no. it's not. i didn't read the article that way and i didn't post it for that reason. i posted it b/c i like what it had to say about 'HOMOPHOBIA' - the concept. i also related to the article where it talked about the way homophobia operates to rob men of platonic touch and leave us relatively isolated. but i didn't post this b/c i wanted to attack anyone who posts here. if anything i thought ppl would find it interesting and might reflect on what the article had to say. that's it.

>Just because someone doesn't like other men touching them then
>they're homophobic according to the article. That's not the
>case at all.

that's not what the article says, IMO.

and now that i know that's how some of you read it i understand all of this rah-rah. which is completely unnecessary as directed at me b/c i didn't mean to attack anyone and, again, i disagree that the article says men who don't engage in platonic touch are bad ppl. it says that homophobia - the concept - has robbed men of touch. it says that men avoid platonic touch b/c we're afraid of being labeled as gay and it doesn't seem to place blame for that on the individual men who avoid the touching. instead it seems to blame the concept itself - it blames the ppl's conditioning but not the ppl themselves for having been conditioned. <-- that's how i read the article.

I wonder if Sowhat ran out of K's because it's a perfect time to bow out of this argument.

"we just choose not to touch ANY platonic friends (male or female) like THAT."

Is it homophobia or what? germaphobia?? agoraphobia??

Not wanting to appear gay?? soft? or whatever??

Some of y'all seem mighty defensive at being called homophobic.


I admit to internalized misogyny and heteronormativity. Conversations like this help me work through it.

No one is saying (seriously because sarcasm is lingua franca around OKP) that you have to go around platonically touching anyone to prove you are non prejudiced against the other.

Just asking you to pause (haha) and think about why we do the things we do. If you dont want to change, fine.
*****************************************
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6VnExhelQ

Presenting Collective Peace.

https://www.facebook.com/CollectivePeace

Why should I kiss and hold hands with women that I'm not attracted or related to.

Why does that need to be MY method of communication.

Why is a hug not enough.

Why is verbal communication not enough.

Why is a smile not enough.

Why should it be more intimate with anyone other than a significant other.

Why can't *I* reserve certain touch for my wife.

Why.

You're focusing on the fact that I don't do it with men, and ignoring that I don't do it with other women.

Why should I have to explain why I don't do it with men, when the "policy" isn't limited to men (it's for ANYONE I'm not romantically interested in).

So back to my point, show me the stats to prove this isn't enough.

if you're fine w/how you operate then do you.

Just say there's no answer. It's okay.

Own that too.

only you have it.

i reflected after i read this article and decided i'm lacking platonic touch and i hadn't thought very much about why until i read this. i immediately identified and agreed w/the author based on my experience.

if you do the same and reach a different conclusion then that's what it is.

she and others have questioned the rationale behind the opposition to the opposite.

I'm obviously fine with my choice, but obviously my and other men's platonic touching doesn't go far enough for some.

So, let's hear her answer.

i just read this so i dont know if this is referring to me. if i assume that it is;

>she and others have questioned the rationale behind the
>opposition to the opposite.

do i think that the lack of touch is rooted in homophobia?
yes
there could be largely other reasons - e.g culture although i dont buy this either- i mean what is culture? it is a way of life, and if we are brought up to assume that platonic touch amongst men is
a sign of either being gay, leads to some form of 'intimacy' (although i dont agree that intimacy= romance)
or is a form of 'weakness' or being 'soft'
which to me equals being gay (of which i dont understand the assumption that being gay= being weak. at all)
then that becomes our culture
does american culture in general frown against physical intimacy (here not defined as some romantic touch
i'd say yes it does (as evinced by the concept of personal space)
do i think its rooted in some fear of germs or disease ? no. nothing in the past 100 years confirms this (as far as i know. germ theory is relatively recent
do i assume its due to religion? shit. religion and homophobia....
so.. what other theories explain this?
and i find it also interesting that with newfound globalization this is a trend that is crossing borders
my brothers in nairobi, for example

>I'm obviously fine with my choice, but obviously my and other
>men's platonic touching doesn't go far enough for some.

which is awesome
for me this article puts up a plausible rationale
and should result in asking questions about whether or not the underlying premise is right
do men in this society avoid touching other men (and dont bring up sports. i think the fact that men are so openly touching each other during sports is evidence that the lack of touch in other aspects of life is that good ol conditioning)
if the answer is yes... and if it has an impact/effect in how men relate to the world/society at large (e.g looking at society as something one has to be prepared against- teaching boys to put up a front in order to survive)
then perhaps the bigger issue is how do we resolve

>i just read this so i dont know if this is referring to me.
>if i assume that it is;

First, no. I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the person that just responded to me asking me WHY NOT.


>do i think that the lack of touch is rooted in homophobia?
>yes

Let's just stop here.

DEFINE LACK OF TOUCH.

Also, please respond to reply #380

That was in response to your post about data.

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Secrets-Friendships-Crisis-Connection/dp/0674072421

.

and how that is a result of being raised to be 'men'

im not sure what else you are looking for

platonic touch (i.e. what qualifies as sufficient touch along with stats to back that up).

What page is that on.

>"we just choose not to touch ANY platonic friends (male or
>female) like THAT."
>
>Is it homophobia or what? germaphobia?? agoraphobia??
>

asking the question is great...i think it's not as complicated as we are making it...making homophobia the cause rather than a factor is problematic...it's not even the labeling that annoys me...it's the ignoring of the obvious

>Not wanting to appear gay?? soft? or whatever??
>

in general, our culture isn't touchy feely...most platonic touch is very conservative

>Some of y'all seem mighty defensive at being called
>homophobic.
>
>
>I admit to internalized misogyny and heteronormativity.
>Conversations like this help me work through it.
>
>No one is saying (seriously because sarcasm is lingua franca
>around OKP) that you have to go around platonically touching
>anyone to prove you are non prejudiced against the other.
>
>Just asking you to pause (haha) and think about why we do the
>things we do. If you dont want to change, fine.

it needs to be a societal change...i hug my close friends all the time...i only hold my wife's hand or children

if we examine it without trying to inject our own agendas into it...it becomes much clearer but people are doing that when you assign homophobia as causal to touch isolation

compare our notions of personal space, gender roles, and the intimacy levels of various types of touching...homophobia is something that plays a role but it doesn't cause it...it's the roots of that homophobia that contribute directly...it can also reinforce related homophobic notions...

ideas of personal space, roles of weak vs strong, masculine vs feminine, and how those roles relate to touch frequency and type...all have causal impact on touch isolation for EVERYONE but especially men...homophobia can show up in those instances but is mostly just a product of those other issues as well

so unnecessary.

i mean shit...i own my homophobia. i know where it came from i have some idea how it operates in my life and so when i find myself acting in certain ways i know why i'm doing it.

it's that simple.

but the knots in which ppl tie themselves to deny their homophobia...i LOL @ them.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

plus the argument doesn't hold up on any cross-cultural or historical comparisons. In the latter....the suggestion would be that homophobia INCREASED as men touched less in our society. This is clearly not true. Homophobia is at an all-time low in american society. And according to the argument....as homophobia lessens, men should start touching each other more. That's not happening.

And then cross-culturally.....there are WAYYYYY more homophobic societies wherein men DO touch more.

This argument is the equivalent of saying 'because it's hot in texas, people speak with a southern accent'. Well....it's hotter in many countries that don't have texan accents.....so that's obviously not the underlying cause.

noticing a trend and blaming one of the many related societal dysfunctions is one easy way to prompt people to filter that theory through there anecdotal experience...

as that happens with more people...u begin to generate collective anecdotal evidence so i while people probably shouldn't be using individual experiences as counter-arguments...if enough people share that experience...it may be at least relevant if not valuable to the discussion

And any point how they're outing themselves as either people who haven't read the article
Or
As Jo corn mo stated can't read?
Sources are provided...
But no
They are just going to continue to out themselves on trigger reaction to the word homophobe.


SoWhat is sick and tired of these fools with very good reason
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

and they're unnecessarily defensive - as if someone has called them bad ppl if they don't engage in the platonic touch the author talks about.

it's pretty stupid.

but...

but think American culture even devoid of homophobia is very unique about touching in general

it's some ridiculous arguments in here...usual suspects being usual suspects...

in general, Americans have odd and prudish ideas about what qualifies romantic touch and what qualifies as platonic touch...we also have a very unique ideas about personal space

homophobia can be read from some of those odd distinctions...

but it's easy to mistake odd gender roles combined with overall odd social touch rules

it's a perfect storm of reasons why...and some of them are related

in general...holding hands is typically considered a romantic gesture rather than a platonic one...

men dap, shake hands, hug, put arms around each other but typically don't hold hands or kiss each other...moreso to adhere to gender roles and norms then to avoid the gheys though I'm sure that plays a part as well...

i think this is a case of overstating the impact of one potential cause that's related to the core causes

it's an interesting article though and it's definitely worth the read

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/megasahd-escape-the-act-like-a-man-box/

selective copy-paste ...;
I like calling it the “Act Like a Man Box,...because it highlights how masculinity is a performance.When I do this exercise, I ask the group to brainstorm words that describe “real men.” ...the responses have been pretty consistent, regardless of the age, gender mix, sexual orientation, or racial makeup of the group. As long as the participants grew up in or have spent significant time in the US, they know what this guy looks like:

Tall Strong Muscular
25-45 years old Able-bodied Heterosexual
Cisgender Competitive Dominant
Cop Firefighter Mechanic
Lawyer Business Man CEO
Caretaker Competent Leader
Drinks Watches & plays sports Play poker with his buddies
Doesn’t show emotions other than anger, excitement Stoic Violent
Always wants sex Has lots of sexual partners Sex is about scoring
Has a big penis Gets hard when he wants Stays hard
Gives his partner an orgasm (or multiple orgasms) Ejaculates when he wants to Sex is focused on intercourse, blow jobs (receiving), possible anal (giving)


After we come up with this list, I ask the group to name the things that men are called if we’re not all of these things. Here are some of the more common responses:
gay fag
girl weak
sissy punk
bitch loser
pussy wimp

On the other hand, all of the words on the outside fit into one of three groups: gay, female, loser. I think that says pretty interesting things about homophobia and sexism. The way I think of it, those are the bricks that make up the Box and shame is the mortar that holds it together.

seriously, let go and let god

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

am i a real man/??




Tall Strong Muscular
25-45 years old Able-bodied Heterosexual
Cisgender Competitive Dominant
Cop Firefighter Mechanic
Lawyer Business Man CEO
Caretaker Competent Leader
Drinks Watches & plays sports Play poker with his buddies
Doesn’t show emotions other than anger, excitement Stoic Violent
Always wants sex Has lots of sexual partners Sex is about scoring
Has a big penis Gets hard when he wants Stays hard
Gives his partner an orgasm (or multiple orgasms) Ejaculates when he wants to Sex is focused on intercourse, blow jobs (receiving), possible anal (giving)

My wife touches me all the time, my son and grandson touch me all the time, I give my mother kisses and hugs, I hug dap my male friends, I goof around with cousins that involves touch at times (both male and female), if I'm in church I may end up holding another dude's hand besides a woman's hand, I shake hands with strangers I meet, I've given and received pats on the back/shoulder to and from other dudes, etc. How much touch do I really need out what I already give and receive? I'm not sure how touchy feely the writer of this article wants us to get.


If it's walking and holding hands with dudes like we're little kids or sitting in each other's laps, then he's being ridiculous. Why would I even need to do any of that? Those kind of actions are highly purposeless.


Since 1976

i definitely wish i had more platonic touch in my life and after reflecting on what i read in this article i have some idea why i don't have more of it.

if it doesn't apply to you then move on.

that's not what the article says and it's not what i've said.

.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4