If Christianity is not your faith, then your won't be interested. But if you are a Christian, you should be worried.



Here’s How the New Christian Left Is Twisting the Gospel
9:00AM EDT 3/9/2015
CHELSEN VICARI


Peek behind the curtain of some "progressive" or "hip" evangelical churches, past the savvy technology and secular music, and you will find more than just a contemporary worship service. You'll find faith leaders encouraging young evangelicals to trade in their Christian convictions for a gospel filled with compromise. They're slowly attempting to give evangelicalism an "update"—and the change is not for the good.

It's painful for me to admit, but we can no longer rest carefree in our evangelical identity—because it is changing. No doubt you have seen the headlines declaring that evangelicalism is doomed because evangelical kids are leaving the faith. It is no secret that there is an expanding gulf between traditional Christian teachings and contemporary moral values. But the sad truth is that the ideological gulf between America's evangelical grown-ups and their kids, aka the "millennials," seems to be widening too.

Somehow the blame for this chasm is being heaped on traditional churches. They are accused of having too many rules as well as being homophobic and bigoted. Yes, we've heard those false claims from popular culture in its desperate attempt to keep Christianity imprisoned within the sanctuary walls. But now popular culture is being aided by Christ-professing bedfellows whose message to "coexist," "tolerate" and "keep out of it" is more marketable to the rising generation of evangelicals.

The seasoned Christian soldiers are noticing these distortions of the gospel. But for young evangelicals, the spiritual haze is harder to wade through. Desperate for acceptance in a fallen world, many young evangelicals (and some older ones) choose not to take Christ out of the chapel, and so they are unwittingly killing the church's public witness. In this uphill cultural battle, mired by scare tactics and fear, three types of evangelical Christians are emerging:

Couch-potato Christians: These Christians adapt to the culture by staying silent on the tough culture-and-faith discussions. Typically this group will downplay God's absolute truths by promoting the illusion that neutrality was Jesus' preferred method of evangelism.
Cafeteria-style Christians: This group picks and chooses which Scripture passages to live by, opting for the ones that best seem to jive with culture. Typically they focus solely on the "nice" parts of the gospel while simultaneously and intentionally minimizing sin, hell, repentance and transformation.
Convictional Christians: In the face of the culture's harsh admonitions, these evangelicals refuse to be silent. Mimicking Jesus, they compassionately talk about love and grace while also sharing with their neighbors the need to recognize and turn from sin.
I know about these three types of Christians because at one time or another I have fallen into each of these three categories. My parents will tell you that even though I was raised in church, I morphed into a full-fledged feminist, told my parents they were ignorant for not endorsing homosexuality and bought into the distorted social justice rhetoric that confuses caring for the poor with advancing socialist or big government systems and demonizing the United States for its free market system.

I'm not ashamed to share my story because my experiences and those of my fellow bold evangelicals are a testimony of God's awesome, transforming power. Being countercultural for Christ isn't easy. What does the Great Commission say? Jesus commanded us to go, "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:20).

Where Did We Go Wrong?

I see so many parents scratching their heads trying to figure out where they went wrong with young evangelicals. Following the instructions of Proverbs 22:6—"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it"—many evangelical parents took their children to church and prayed with them every night before bed. Yet the values those children now hold dear do not reflect the traditional teachings of Jesus.

To be perfectly clear, I want to let you know upfront that this isn't a parenting how-to guide that, if followed, will lead your loved ones to salvation. Instead, what I can offer you is a glimpse into the world of a twenty-something who sees thousands of young evangelicals being spiritually and emotionally targeted on Christian university campuses, in college ministries and at churches nationwide by a growing liberal movement cloaked in Christianity.

Research tells us that evangelicals are drifting further away from the orthodox truths their parents and grandparents held dear.

Our churches have rarely—if ever—faced the exodus we are seeing today. This will have a direct effect on the spiritual and moral values that will shape the nation in the coming years. That is why it is urgent that concerned Christians start acting now before the situation gets worse.

The Collision of Faith and Culture

Faith and culture will continue to collide in America. The culture wars, the growth of family, the success of missions, the prosperity of our great nation—the future rests on millennial evangelicals' worldview. And that is cause for concern, because something has gone wrong with young evangelicals' theology.

The millennial generation's susceptibility to "feel-good" doctrine is playing a big part in America's moral decline. Millennials' religious practices depend largely on how the actions make us and others feel, whether the activities are biblical or not. For example, we only attend churches that leave us feeling good about our lifestyle choices, even if those choices conflict with God's clear commandments. We dismiss old hymns that focus on God's transforming salvation, love and mercy and opt for "Jesus is your boyfriend" songs. Or we contribute to nonprofits that exploit and misuse terms such as justice, oppressed and inequality because tweaking the language makes us feel more neutral, less confrontational.

Popular liberal evangelical writers and preachers tell young evangelicals that if they accept abortion and same-sex marriage, then the media, academia and Hollywood will finally accept Christians. Out of fear of being falsely dubbed "intolerant" or "uncompassionate," many young Christians are buying into theological falsehoods. Instead of standing up as a voice for the innocent unborn or marriage as God intended, millennials are forgoing the authority of Scripture and embracing a couch potato, cafeteria-style Christianity all in the name of tolerance.

This contemporary mindset is what Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German theologian whose Christian convictions put him at odds with the Nazis and cost him his life, called "cheap grace." In his book The Cost of Discipleship Bonhoeffer wrote: "Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."

Right now cheap grace theology is proliferating around evangelical Bible colleges, seminaries and Christian ministries.

Christian Doctrine Hijacked

It is not that millennial evangelicals were not taken to church by their parents. It is that their training has been hijacked by ineffective and sometimes intentionally distorted doctrine.

As constant and pervasive as the attacks on Christianity are at public universities, it is important to remember that millennials' worldviews do not start taking shape after they move out of their parents' houses. Their understanding of Jesus' teachings and cultural convictions begin to form while they are still at home and under the influence of their local church.

What I hope and pray evangelical parents and leaders come to realize is that the church has been too trusting. In our jampacked lifestyles, parents have treated Sunday school as they do softball or ballet class—drop off the kids for an hour then pick them up and hope they learned something.

Early on in my Sunday school teaching days, my co-teacher and I followed the curriculum pretty narrowly, the exception being that my co-teacher had an outstanding knowledge of biblical history that he imparted to the kids.

We taught all about Jesus' birth, resurrection and saving grace. Thinking the fluffy kids ministry curriculum covered all of the necessary bases, I felt confident these kids had a firm grasp on their Christian worldview. Boy, was I wrong!

One day my co-teacher and I decided to play "True or False." We casually went down a list of worldview questions with our class, sure that our little evangelicals would nail every question correctly.

No. 1: Jesus is God. "True." Great job.

No. 2: Jesus sinned. "False." Bingo!

No. 3: Jesus is one of many ways to heaven. "True." What?!

Shocked is the only way to describe how I felt. Hadn't they been listening to us? When I asked who taught them that, one girl said, "Coexist." Yes, these young evangelicals had been listening to their Sunday school teachers and their parents, but they had also been listening to their public school teachers, TV celebrities and rock stars.

Youth ministers, volunteer leaders and pastors also have to start preparing these kids to deal with the very real hostility that faces young evangelicals.

If we never talk about abortion in church, how can we expect the rising evangelical girl to calmly explain the option of adoption to her frightened best friend who just admitted she is pregnant?

What will surprise you is how much young evangelicals actually crave honest discussions about abortion, sexuality, sexual exploitation, feminism and radical Islam. My friend and Evangelical Action adviser Richmond Trotter has two non-negotiable topics when addressing youth: creation and life. Having volunteered in church youth ministry since 1996, Richmond is not afraid to have serious discussions about what Scripture says about abortion, evolution and homosexuality. Make no mistake: The trend away from biblical truth is not concentrated in the hipster city limits. It is unfolding in the crevices of America's plains, hills, mountains and swamplands. All across this nation, "old-fashioned" conservative evangelicalism is being traded in for a bright and shiny, mediocre Christianity.

If America's evangelicals disengage from the public square and fail to engage the rising generation of Christian leaders, then we risk losing our public voice, then our religious liberty, then liberty altogether.

What Happened to the Religious Right?

The last several decades witnessed tremendous evangelical influence in the United States. Leaders such as Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, Paige and Dorothy Patterson, James Dobson, and James and Betty Robison made a bold impact on America's families, churches and government. Now that those few leaders are aging or retiring, or have died, there are very few traditional evangelical leaders left holding the torch and even fewer candidates to whom they can pass it.

But religious convictions in America are not on the verge of disappearance just yet. There is still hope. In the book God Is Alive and Well: The Future of Religion in America, Gallup Inc. Editor-in-Chief Frank Newport ensures: "Christianity will prevail in the U.S. America will remain very much a Christian nation in the decades ahead, albeit less so than in the past because of an increase in Americans who don't have a religious identity."

Heed the Warning Signs

Evangelicals and culture warriors in the U.S. do not have to look far to discover what happens when Christian denominations give up on their traditional convictions and teachings. All we have to do is look at the dwindling memberships of mainline Protestant denominations.

In order to safeguard the trajectory of young evangelicals, we must uphold the authoritative Word of God. It is imperative that those in a position to influence millennials have transparent and honest discussions about the culture wars evangelical youth are already engaging. Otherwise they will be silent and accepting in the face of persecution and false doctrine.

The importance of arming the next generation of evangelicals cannot be overstated. If we continue to follow the example of mainline Protestants, evangelicalism will have a gloomy future. We must offer sorely needed leadership, but before we can do that, we need to know exactly whom and what we are up against.

Chelsen Vicari serves as the Institute on Religion and Democracy's evangelical program director. Prior to joining the IRD, she worked for Concerned Women for America. She holds a bachelor of science in political science and history and a master's degree in international politics. Her articles on evangelicalism and public policy have appeared in TheBlaze, The Christian Post, and RealClearReligion. She recently wrote her first book, Distortion, from which this article is excerpted.


http://www.charismamag.com/life/culture/22494-how-the-new-christian-left-is-twisting-the-gospel

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Matthew 22:36-40


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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

and responding with that that one scripture after reading the whole article?


I'm just asking.





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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

they'd focus there. b/c that's the whole point of all of it - Xtians are to love God w/all they have and then to love other ppl. that's it.

LOVE is the focus. not RULES.

There seems to be a direct conflict between what the bible says and the author of this piece (which seems to me to be a good example of Cafeteria-style Christians).

Another example, how do you square the authors desire for Christians to share "with their neighbors the need to recognize and turn from sin" with Jesus warning us ""Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8 : 7





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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

a hate for christianity or something?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

that's his answer to Case's question.

and what's my motive for asking what motive case expects or your motive for responding for buddy.

all these motives gotta mean something right?

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

i can dig it.

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And then y'all always try to come at me with some fake sincerity and backhanded mess.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Ol wanna be the victim...

You were literally asking the man his motivations, implying that there was something insincere in his posting. For what? For why? Because if you could etch out just a little thing which you can call an ill motive then you could dismiss the whole thing raher than address the difficult position.

You want to be taken seriously, stop trying to weasle your way out of tough arguments. tackle the issues head on like a man instead of falling back on yall hate me nonsense.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

So, have a blessed day.







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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Meanwhile you claim love while retreating.

Be a man Case. Face the tough questions like a man.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>Meanwhile you claim love while retreating.
>
>Be a man Case. Face the tough questions like a man.

Being an adult would be enough but...

Meanwhile you claim love while retreating.

Be a man Case. Face the tough questions like a man.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

So save that.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

neither did jesus
and nope it's not just a christian thing

what's a very case thing is to think you can dictate who knows/is/does what based on your own sense of entitlement.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

and it's too close to your face.
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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

but i was being sincere when i replied to you earlier.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

^ note: that was fake.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

though i'm not a Xtian anymore i still attend church (not religiously) and i have a certain amount of respect for the faith (largely b/c some of the ppl i hold dearest are xtians).

i was serious - if churches wanna get to the heart of what the Bible says Jesus was all about they'd focus on love for God and other ppl. i'm pretty sure Jesus' point there was that when one keeps one's eye on loving God and loving others it becomes easier to avoid sin. like, if we love God we'll want to make Him happy (ain't that love?). we know that He prizes our obedience and so we'd seek to obey b/c we want to please him and not just or primarily b/c we fear his retribution. similarly if we love others we'll avoid doing them wrong b/c we don't want to cause them hurt, not b/c we fear God's retribution.

though Jesus did talk about God's punishment most of what he had to say wasn't about that, and indeed when he was asked about the most important commandment he answered - love. he didn't say anything there about punishment. he didn't even mention sin. he also didn't attempt to inspire fear. so, again, i think if churches really wanna get to the heart of Jesus' message they'd focus on love.

>though i'm not a Xtian anymore i still attend church (not
>religiously) and i have a certain amount of respect for the
>faith (largely b/c some of the ppl i hold dearest are xtians).
>
>
>i was serious - if churches wanna get to the heart of what the
>Bible says Jesus was all about they'd focus on love for God
>and other ppl. i'm pretty sure Jesus' point there was that
>when one keeps one's eye on loving God and loving others it
>becomes easier to avoid sin. like, if we love God we'll want
>to make Him happy (ain't that love?). we know that He prizes
>our obedience and so we'd seek to obey b/c we want to please
>him and not just or primarily b/c we fear his retribution.
>similarly if we love others we'll avoid doing them wrong b/c
>we don't want to cause them hurt, not b/c we fear God's
>retribution.
>
>though Jesus did talk about God's punishment most of what he
>had to say wasn't about that, and indeed when he was asked
>about the most important commandment he answered - love. he
>didn't say anything there about punishment. he didn't even
>mention sin. he also didn't attempt to inspire fear. so,
>again, i think if churches really wanna get to the heart of
>Jesus' message they'd focus on love.


To not obey God is to sin and to fall short of truly loving God. Jesus Said that if you love me you will obey me. @ John 14:23 (Paraphrase). Jesus is God from the beginning of eternity past. So, we can't truly love our neighbor or our selves if we don't love God. And to fall short of loving God does result in Sin and punishment by default. The issue is that the Church has fallen short on preaching about Sin and punishment and all people know now is cheap grace. The church has fallen short on teaching, because although Jesus didn't mention sin in the passage about loving God, ones neighbors as we love ourselves, he didn't need to, because he was talking to a people that lived the Mosaic scriptures everyday. The knew the law and God's word. He was just repositioning their hearts to see the Love, purpose and meaning in the God's word.





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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

is going to encourage the young ppl to return to church (and this article you've posted seems to be concerned w/bringing young ppl back to church). it definitely wouldn't work on me. indeed, the church i attend most often these days doesn't regularly feature sermons that're focused on God's retribution. b/c i don't wanna hear all of that. and if that's what this church was mostly about i wouldn't attend.

>is going to encourage the young ppl to return to church (and
>this article you've posted seems to be concerned w/bringing
>young ppl back to church). it definitely wouldn't work on me.
> indeed, the church i attend most often these days doesn't
>regularly feature sermons that're focused on God's
>retribution. b/c i don't wanna hear all of that. and if
>that's what this church was mostly about i wouldn't attend.
>



See, here's my issue. the church has become so preoccupied with M&M's (Money & Membership) that it has forgotten that the truth mush be told to transform the world into the Kingdom of God. Instead the church id too preoccupied with letting the world transform it. Christians are suppose to be in the world, not of the world. But to not tell the truth about Hell, Sin, Temptations, Depravity, and only preach grace and reward is imbalanced and wrong. We cannot raise and mature our sons and daughters on milk alone. People talk about how Jesus preached grace, but they forget that he preached about sin, the devil and hell too.



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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

it won't attract them by focusing on sin and hell and God's retribution.

there needs to be some balance, i agree. but putting more of that stuff on the scale won't strike the balance that will bring ppl of the world to church and then to God and salvation. b/c don't nobody wanna hear all of that. and unlike when the Bible was written, ppl have too many other options besides church in general or the xtian church specifically and any particular denomination. so if a church is preaching that fiery mess and another is on the grace tip of course ppl are going to be drawn to grace. so maybe that fiery church needs to tone down its message. it can stay on that fire stuff if it wants - and watch its membership continue to dwindle. which may result in more lost souls.

The when I'm taking about the church has an issue with being more concerned with M&M (Money and Membership) I'm referring to the church physical, not the Church Universal, which is concerned with Salvation for all.

I didn't think I needed to explain that distinction.


>it won't attract them by focusing on sin and hell and God's
>retribution.
>


But here is where you are wrong. The Word should be preached - the whole word. Jesus who is the Word from Genesis to Revelation and before said. " If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." If the WORD is lifted up ( The WHOLE WORD) people will be drawn to salvation and redemption. An that's what the article is talking about, a lack of the whole WORD being taught.


>there needs to be some balance, i agree. but putting more of
>that stuff on the scale won't strike the balance that will
>bring ppl of the world to church and then to God and
>salvation. b/c don't nobody wanna hear all of that. and
>unlike when the Bible was written, ppl have too many other
>options besides church in general or the xtian church
>specifically and any particular denomination. so if a church
>is preaching that fiery mess and another is on the grace tip
>of course ppl are going to be drawn to grace. so maybe that
>fiery church needs to tone down its message. it can stay on
>that fire stuff if it wants - and watch its membership
>continue to dwindle. which may result in more lost souls.


I don't s agree with this, for one it's not theologically correct and it's not doctrinally correct.







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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

>The when I'm taking about the church has an issue with being
>more concerned with M&M (Money and Membership) I'm referring
>to the church physical, not the Church Universal, which is
>concerned with Salvation for all.
>
>I didn't think I needed to explain that distinction.

i understood that.

>But here is where you are wrong. The Word should be preached -
>the whole word. Jesus who is the Word from Genesis to
>Revelation and before said. " If I be lifted up, I will draw
>all men unto me." If the WORD is lifted up ( The WHOLE WORD)
>people will be drawn to salvation and redemption. An that's
>what the article is talking about, a lack of the whole WORD
>being taught.

that was more true when the church was also the government. but now that it's not...it's like i was saying earlier - if churches put too much on the fire they'll turn ppl off. b/c these days ppl have too many other options.

>>there needs to be some balance, i agree. but putting more
>of
>>that stuff on the scale won't strike the balance that will
>>bring ppl of the world to church and then to God and
>>salvation. b/c don't nobody wanna hear all of that. and
>>unlike when the Bible was written, ppl have too many other
>>options besides church in general or the xtian church
>>specifically and any particular denomination. so if a
>church
>>is preaching that fiery mess and another is on the grace tip
>>of course ppl are going to be drawn to grace. so maybe that
>>fiery church needs to tone down its message. it can stay on
>>that fire stuff if it wants - and watch its membership
>>continue to dwindle. which may result in more lost souls.
>
>
>I don't s agree with this, for one it's not theologically
>correct and it's not doctrinally correct.

i wasn't talking theology or xtian doctrine there. that was marketing and persuasion.

if church A is preaching that fire stuff about God punishing sinners and church B is preaching that grace stuff about God forgiving sinners i'm pretty sure church B is going to attract more ppl - especially sinners.

to answer the questions.



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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

After I asked if you were going to answer my question first. Go on with that.

Not the thread is full of some BS. It's an article. I'm not here to defend it and I'm gonna let it cook on it's on.

This place is a mess and I'm getting tired of this circus.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Oooooohhhh he edited his message. Let's just dismiss the whole thing now.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

If y'all were not so busy trying to come at me with BS and or let people respond with their own words then the conversation would be clean and clear.

But NOOOOOOOOOO. It's people like you that are always trying t find a Gotcha Case Moment or trying to be an ass about matters. Then when I refuse to play along, y'all become disrespectful.

Man Please. You can keep all of that.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

I thought of something else I wanted to add (the cast the first stone story) so I edited my response to add that story.

I am not sure why you think that edit is important.

I posted the verse that immediately came to mind when reading that piece. You asked my why I posted it, SoWhat did a pretty good articulation why I posted it.

I answered your question. At least try to answer my question.

It's a sincere question. Not a gotcha or an attempt to troll. I'd like to know your answer.

It'd be disappointing if you evade, distract (concern about editing) or flat out refuse to engage in discussion of faith with challenging questions.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

I thought of something else I wanted to add (the cast the first stone story) so I edited my response to add that story.

I am not sure why you think that edit is important.

I posted the verse that immediately came to mind when reading that piece. You asked my why I posted it, SoWhat did a pretty good articulation why I posted it.

I answered your question. At least try to answer my question.

It's a sincere question. Not a gotcha or an attempt to troll. I'd like to know your answer.

It'd be disappointing if you evade, distract (concern about editing) or flat out refuse to engage in discussion of faith with challenging questions.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

It contributed to the nonsense that ensued. Originally you never responded and you know it. You Let SoWhat claim your response. And other's chose to push the Rah Rah Button and go in on some BS.



>I thought of something else I wanted to add (the cast the
>first stone story) so I edited my response to add that story.
>
>
>I am not sure why you think that edit is important.
>
>I posted the verse that immediately came to mind when reading
>that piece. You asked my why I posted it, SoWhat did a pretty
>good articulation why I posted it.
>
>I answered your question. At least try to answer my
>question.
>
>It's a sincere question. Not a gotcha or an attempt to troll.
>I'd like to know your answer.
>
>It'd be disappointing if you evade, distract (concern about
>editing) or flat out refuse to engage in discussion of faith
>with challenging questions.
>
>
But I will respond since you asked.

in responding?

And when I did come back to respond I saw that SoWhat did a good job summing it up so I saved key strokes by just pigging backing what he said.

I am not sure why you trying to read some sinister motives in all of that.

You should better to ignore rah rah and stay focused.

>It contributed to the nonsense that ensued. Originally you
>never responded and you know it. You Let SoWhat claim your
>response. And other's chose to push the Rah Rah Button and go
>in on some BS.
>
>
>
>>I thought of something else I wanted to add (the cast the
>>first stone story) so I edited my response to add that story.
>
>>
>>
>>I am not sure why you think that edit is important.
>>
>>I posted the verse that immediately came to mind when
>reading
>>that piece. You asked my why I posted it, SoWhat did a
>pretty
>>good articulation why I posted it.
>>
>>I answered your question. At least try to answer my
>>question.
>>
>>It's a sincere question. Not a gotcha or an attempt to
>troll.
>>I'd like to know your answer.
>>
>>It'd be disappointing if you evade, distract (concern about
>>editing) or flat out refuse to engage in discussion of faith
>>with challenging questions.
>>
>>
>But I will respond since you asked.


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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

the minimum standard for an editorial or opinion piece

its more of a (dare i say it) sermon

for lack of a better word

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Also, are you comfortable being aligned with this list of people:

Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, Paige and Dorothy Patterson, James Dobson, and James and Betty Robison

?

>There seems to be a direct conflict between what the bible
>says and the author of this piece (which seems to me to be a
>good example of Cafeteria-style Christians).
>

I don't see a contradiction.


>Another example, how do you square the authors desire for
>Christians to share "with their neighbors the need to
>recognize and turn from sin" with Jesus warning us ""Let any
>one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at
>her." John 8 : 7
>
>

You cherry picked a scripture and are trying to apply it to call matters of sinning. Jesus never abolished punishment. He did shame the crowd of men in the case with the woman caught in adultery, because the Scriptures taught that sin was a hear issue not just and act. And most likely these same men had ben or have know fellow adulterers / friends but had never punished them. Also, in those days women were the only one's who were considered to be adulterers.

But noticed in verse 11c, Jesus says “Go now and leave your life of sin.” He have her a scriptural commandment. Just because Jesus prevent the crowd from killing here, he didn't absolve her of the sin, he just told her to change her life and to not sin again. But if she didn't change the word teaches us that Jesus will judge us all for our sins in the end.

>You cherry picked a scripture and are trying to apply it to
>call matters of sinning. Jesus never abolished punishment. He
>did shame the crowd of men in the case with the woman caught
>in adultery, because the Scriptures taught that sin was a hear
>issue not just and act. And most likely these same men had ben
>or have know fellow adulterers / friends but had never
>punished them. Also, in those days women were the only one's
>who were considered to be adulterers.
>
>But noticed in verse 11c, Jesus says “Go now and leave your
>life of sin.” He have her a scriptural commandment. Just
>because Jesus prevent the crowd from killing here, he didn't
>absolve her of the sin, he just told her to change her life
>and to not sin again. But if she didn't change the word
>teaches us that Jesus will judge us all for our sins in the
>end.


My take away is that we are all sinners so we have no standing to try to take a moral high road in trying to call out the sins of others.

I also take from it it is ONLY jesus' place to call out the sinner.

I am not a moral relativist who believe that there are no sinners. I consider myself a Christian who appreciates the insight that we are all sinners so we have to check our selves when we desire to call out the wrong things that other people do.

I don't think it's our place to call out sinners.

So what are we suppose to do about all the wrong stuff we see going on around us?

Well that's where the first verses I posted are important to me. Because I take from that what we are suppose to do try to bring change through love and devotion to God.

I think that's a radical concept which makes it especially difficult to be a Christian.

You see a murderer, rapist, racist, etc., the easy human thing to do would be to say, "F'em and let them burn". I think the Christian thing to do would be try to show them compassion and love them. I am aware that sounds super soft and cuddly but I think that's the more christian thing to do then trying to go on fire and brimstone rants.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

>"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your
>heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38
>This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second
>is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All
>the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"
>
>Matthew 22:36-40

Should've ended here. This is what Christianity is supposed to be about. Anything else is extra.

>>"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your
>>heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
>38
>>This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the
>second
>>is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All
>>the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"
>>
>>Matthew 22:36-40
>
>Should've ended here. This is what Christianity is supposed to
>be about. Anything else is extra.

Not true. Anything else can be founded on that love, but people try to forget that obedience to God is love too and so is God's punishment.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

"Anything else can be founded on that love"



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're r

>"Anything else can be founded on that love"
>

I was responding to the claim that "Anything else is extra."

I was saying that All thing should be founded on the Love of God, even the extra - if that's what they choose to call it.



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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

>Not true. Anything else can be founded on that love, but
>people try to forget that obedience to God is love too and so
>is God's punishment.

I'm talking about all that "extra" stuff most "Christians" do and say. Some of which you're guilty of.

>>"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your
>>heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
>38
>>This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the
>second
>>is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All
>>the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"
>>
>>Matthew 22:36-40
>
>Should've ended here. This is what Christianity is supposed to
>be about. Anything else is extra.

If a person's conduct can't be reconciled to these words from Jesus they need to take a serious look at themselves. There are too many Christians who come at others with an attitude but can't take it when that attitude comes back at them. That fails the love your neighbour as yourself commandment. That is the problem with much of the hypocrisy that goes on in the church. People want to give it, but they can't take it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk1G8QIPiB8










mere curiosity.

One. That video has little to do with the context of the article on one hand, and on the other is does prove the point of misinterpreted and applied scripture understanding.

I don't know the context or forum that he is speaking in. Sure, it looks like a church, but I don't know if there was a platform that gave him an opportunity to voice his opinion.

But based on his message, I can say that he is taking scripture out of context and he's also assuming that his decedents were from North East Africa. Maybe, maybe not. I would have had a nice sidebar with the brother and talked to him in private, so that I could get a better understanding about his perspectives.

That's all I have to say on the matter, based on what he said.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

If evangelicalism were as liberal as Jesus was

And i also peeped the 'bliminals to the liberal Pope

There is nothing in the Bible that shows that Jesus was a Liberal. There is plenty that shows his compassion for humanity, but I'd like to know what do you mean when you say he was liberal.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Christ is depicted as having an unwavering commitment to social justice

Mainstream evangelicalism is not. In fact, its fanatical support of Republican politics actually puts them on the other side of the spectrum. Abortion, homosexuality, evolution? Thats the topic list of a Sarah Palin speech.

>Christ is depicted as having an unwavering commitment to
>social justice
>
>Mainstream evangelicalism is not. In fact, its fanatical
>support of Republican politics actually puts them on the other
>side of the spectrum. Abortion, homosexuality, evolution?
>Thats the topic list of a Sarah Palin speech.



^^^^^^^^

>Christ is depicted as having an unwavering commitment to
>social justice
>

True the Gospel is an amazing Social Justice message.


>Mainstream evangelicalism is not. In fact, its fanatical
>support of Republican politics actually puts them on the other
>side of the spectrum. Abortion, homosexuality, evolution?
>Thats the topic list of a Sarah Palin speech.


Mainstream evangelicalism is also about the doctrine of Social Justice and it is not about a political party, not can Mainstream evangelicalism be boiled down to a few people that have perverted the message for political gain.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Does the bible say anything about the size of government or the optimal economic system?

>Does the bible say anything about the size of government or
>the optimal economic system?

And the Bible does talk about the size of Government and economic systems. The Bible talks about the Nation of Israel as God's example kingdom on earth, the bible talks extensively about economic systems of power and authority and the Bible talks about the Heavenly Kingdom of God. In fact the issue of Kingdom was used as a catalyst to have Jesus crucified. And Jesus' message was very Political on all levels.
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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

<
"...bought into the distorted social justice rhetoric that confuses caring for the poor with advancing socialist or big government systems and demonizing the United States for its free market system."
<

Does the bible give any guidance with regards to socialism vs the free market system?
I understand that politics are in the bible.
But she is trying to say that the words in the bible make it clear that you should favor "this" vs "that"
That is, the teachings of the bible support the modern political right, not the left

did he describe even one of these "liberal" institutions or even one specific way they are overshadowing their "conservative" counterparts? I see no examples, just emotion

also lol at christianity being rejected en masse by academia or hollywood

why does america need to be a christian nation again?

celebrating jerry falwell?

this is borderline hate speech. poorly articulated hate speech, at that

I'm only asking to help frame your reference.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

of if this is poorly written, or is a poorly conceived line of rhetoric

i've been exposed to a lot of theology, if that's helpful

no snark of course, just curious

actually i'm not lol

>of if this is poorly written, or is a poorly conceived line
>of rhetoric
>

I love how OKP can always do it better then the next person. I don't think the article is poorly conceived.


>i've been exposed to a lot of theology, if that's helpful
>
>no snark of course, just curious
>
>actually i'm not lol


I just wanted to know.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

it says, these are the things i believe, and i feel strongly about them. it appeals only to those who share her (my mistake in previous responses, my patriarchy was showing) beliefs. she describes not a single real life example that supports her paranoia

but what i find most disingenuous or wrong about the whole thing, other than the small minded bigotry, is the idea that Christianity features a singular or true theology through which it's rightly understood. it's such a wrong concept (and by the way one thats totally rejected by theologans and scholars world wide) i find it especially lame

>it says, these are the things i believe, and i feel strongly
>about them. it appeals only to those who share her (my mistake
>in previous responses, my patriarchy was showing) beliefs. she
>describes not a single real life example that supports her
>paranoia
>
>but what i find most disingenuous or wrong about the whole
>thing, other than the small minded bigotry, is the idea that
>Christianity features a singular or true theology through
>which it's rightly understood. it's such a wrong concept (and
>by the way one thats totally rejected by theologans and
>scholars world wide) i find it especially lame


As I have said before, many can't understand or comprehend the scriptures because they are foolishness to a fallen world.

But what the author is suggesting in regards to the church is not rejected by theologians and scholars word wide. Seriously, just saying stuff and making things up doesn't make it true.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

theology through which scripture and a religious life is understood

cause i gotta tell you

that is a widely rejected idea

for example

a black liberation theology

doesnt supersede or preclude

a womanist theology

theologies aren't mutually exclusive nor more or less true or right than one another

the interplay between exegesis and isogesis

perspective creates theology, articulates religious practice and interprets scripture

I don't care who rejects it. That's something that they have to deal with. But as one who reaches New Testament, Theology, and Black Liberation Theology I can assure you that there are just as many who agree with me as there are who do not.




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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Her own faith

That being that evangelical Christianity itself was born out of a number of instances of modifying existing theology. The most obvious being the Protestant Reformation.

Doubly ironic is that the liberalism its afraid of would actually make it *more* like the previous theology it broke away from 4 or 5 hundred years ago.

you pick the parts of the bible you want to follow, ignore the parts you don't. emphasize the parts you like, downplay the parts you don't. this is why we have ten thousand denominations.

there's a book called "year of living biblically" where a guy tries to follow every single rule in the bible for a year and-- after spending the year living in a tent in his living room, not wearing mixed fibers, and being careful not to touch any woman who's on her period including his wife, coworkers, and strangers-- realizes how much of what we emphasize from the bible is based on either current culture, personal preference, or is just plain arbitrary. (same goes for pretty much every other religion by the way)

to prove the point, the author of this article emphasizes "abortion, evolution, and homosexuality" as issues that deserve particular emphasis in modern-day christian doctrine. but these are mostly cultural fights, not religious ones. the bible has pretty much nothing to say on abortion and evolution, and jesus himself never addressed homosexuality. to say that a true christian should be emphasizing those three things is based on nothing. it's your own cultural and personal preferences, and you're retrofitting the bible to them.

so bashing modern churches because they don't emphasize the stuff you've chosen to emphasize for yourself is silly. calling their version of christianity "watered down" while claiming you're doing it right is equally silly.

But that's your opinion and I can respect that.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

i hope you immediately washed your clothes and bathed, and that you instruct your flock to do the same. otherwise, your watered down version of christianity is twisting the gospel.

>i hope you immediately washed your clothes and bathed, and
>that you instruct your flock to do the same. otherwise, your
>watered down version of christianity is twisting the gospel.


If you actually did both, then you would realize how wrong you are when it comes to your scripture knowledge, assumption and application.




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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

why do most christians not care about the book of leviticus or any of its instructions until it's time to beat gays over the head with it? why do so many 1st corinthians sermons get preached on "love is patient, love is kind" while no 1st corinthians sermons get preached on the next chapter about women needing to stay silent in church?

>why do most christians not care about the book of leviticus
>or any of its instructions until it's time to beat gays over
>the head with it? why do so many 1st corinthians sermons get
>preached on "love is patient, love is kind" while no 1st
>corinthians sermons get preached on the next chapter about
>women needing to stay silent in church?


Bro, I would love to unpack your compound question. But you have commingled things that are not exclusive to one another and they are out of context.

The fact is that you are cherry picking books to make a point, but I understand. The Law(s) were not abolished by Jesus, they were fulfilled. Jesus didn't take away the Law of Moses, he instituted the Law of Grace, because the Law was powerless to change people and remove Sin, but it can condemn them. Murder is a sin, and it is a violation of the law and is should be punished, but the Law of Grace allows for God to forgive if he chooses because of his Love. God also gave the law because of his love.

As for 1st Cor 13 (the Love Chapter), Paul is talking about Love as being the center of all actions, because the Church at Corinth had started to rely on deeds and actions and had forgotten about the motive which is love.

As for Paul made a point dude to cultural requirements that made women sit in the back of assemblies. It is believed (based on historical norms and culture) that because the were in the back and could not hear, they are asking the speakers to repeat themselves or asking other's about the content. This excessive talking became a distraction and a nuisance. If you read further you will see that the rest of the passage says

35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.




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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

the bible instructs women to stay silent because it says it's disgraceful for women to speak in church. i'm guessing you haven't given too many sermons on that instruction. you're choosing to downplay it for cultural reasons-- what fit in paul's time and culture doesn't work in ours where we see women as equals.

the point is, there are thousands of instructions in the bible. you choose which to emphasize, which to downplay, and which to ignore based on cultural and personal preferences. everybody does. which is why it's silly to look at what modern or younger churches are focusing on for their congregations and say they're practicing a watered down theology.

according to the author of the article you posted, jesus himself practiced a watered down theology because he never spoke on abortion, evolution, or homosexuality-- three things the author believes true christians should be emphasizing. those weren't huge cultural issues in jesus's day, so he didn't address them, even though-- as God-- he must certainly have had an opinion on them.

based on that, you could label jesus himself a cafeteria christian. just like every other christian (or person of any religion) who ever lived.

>the bible instructs women to stay silent because it says it's
>disgraceful for women to speak in church. i'm guessing you
>haven't given too many sermons on that instruction. you're
>choosing to downplay it for cultural reasons-- what fit in
>paul's time and culture doesn't work in ours where we see
>women as equals.
>

It's not about fitting line for line. But I'ma let you play that role if you want too.


>the point is, there are thousands of instructions in the
>bible. you choose which to emphasize, which to downplay, and
>which to ignore based on cultural and personal preferences.
>everybody does. which is why it's silly to look at what modern
>or younger churches are focusing on for their congregations
>and say they're practicing a watered down theology.
>

This is not even true.


>according to the author of the article you posted, jesus
>himself practiced a watered down theology because he never
>spoke on abortion, evolution, or homosexuality-- three things
>the author believes true christians should be emphasizing.
>those weren't huge cultural issues in jesus's day, so he
>didn't address them, even though-- as God-- he must certainly
>have had an opinion on them.
>

Again, that's not even true, or the point and it's hard for you to comprehend because it doesn't make sense to you.


>based on that, you could label jesus himself a cafeteria
>christian. just like every other christian (or person of any
>religion) who ever lived.


Let's face it, the Gospel and the ways of the LORD are foolishness to the world, because the wold can't comprehend it.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

"that's not true" isn't good enough. why isn't it true? think harder. "the ways of the lord are foolishness to the world" is churchspeak that might be an easy out when you're preaching to the choir, but it's a cop-out to everyone else.

you invited the discussion. you posted an article accusing those who don't subscribe to the author's narrow right-wing version of christianity of pushing a watered down gospel. if you're gonna come at other people's faith, you really should be better at defending your own.

-->

It's not a materialism message but it is a prosperity message. Jesus came so that we could have life and and gave it to the full or abundantly. That is prosperity!

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

In context, because Jesus said that he came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. He was referring to life on earth as well as everlasting life.

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

btw post 25 is just below this one. please i'd love your thoughts on the sermon linked there.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

we have come to vilify in the last 20 years.


>Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the
>eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the
>kingdom of God.



But it is applicable to the heart issues of pride and worry.




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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

Because that seems to be your implication

Or an argument that I am making.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

would ever be tempted into being prideful right?

This is like when people try to dance around the money/evil thing.

"The Bible ACTUALLY says the "LOVE" of money is the root of all evil. Not money itself. So it's okay to be wealthy!"


Well yeah muthafucker, but it's a lot easier to fall in love with money when you've got a bunch of it. When money is buying you opulent homes and cars, nice clothes, vacations, and access to other important people you just might be inclined to start giving money a special place in your heart.

Maybe you're just a trusting guy Case, but I've been around enough wealthy preachers to surmise that even though all of them aren't in it for the money and power, enough of them are in it for the money and power to justify the number of people who repeatedly bring this issue up. People aren't just coming up with this shit out of nowhere. Many of us have witnessed people being fleeced. Saying a few words about god doesn't mean that you lack an ego, and a lot of preachers have some giant egos.

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..." -The Bard

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12741652&mesg_id=12741652&listing_type=search

I wonder if it falls under the watered down umbrella.

(watered down umbrella... i like the sound of that)

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

i learned things in school that gave me new perspective on what i'd learned about the faith. specifically, once i learned that the Bible had been edited by a group of men - Catholics at that - and i started to question why certain books were chosen and others rejected. and that was just the beginning - the more i was able to wrap historical context around the scripture the less i believed it was God's infallible Word and the more i believed the scriptures were a tool of social and political control first used by Jewish leaders and later adopted and expanded by Catholics & Romans. and once that happened i was able to question every aspect of the faith. and frankly it didn't withstand critical thought. and after a few yrs of this soul searching and intense research i was left w/o any faith.

so that's what happened. it's NOT b/c i didn't get enough fire and brimstone on Sunday mornings. fire and brimstone definitely would turn me off though. especially since i know there are other options.

i'd definitely rather serve a feel good God than a fiery one. i mean, for what?

It's like I understand and am still feeling good about disagreeing. You need to keep searching for the truth. You're pretty much right also in a general sense about church history. Glory is finding beauty in an ugly thing, making it not ugly even.

other ppls souls?

i agree with above posters that MOST christians are cafeteria christians. among the people that i know that are most vocal about their Christian faith, there is absolutely NO difference in their lifestyle choices vs people i know that are not christian or even atheist.

how can you be evangelical if YOU dont even follow the rules of your faith? that just makes you a hypocrite, laughing stock and discourages people away from Christianity.

and im sure others are genuinely interested in answers to, yet you (and/or others) ever or rarely answer them. i'm not looking for gotcha moments or see you squirm. hell, i'd accept "i don't know" as an answer.

i only say this to say that by dodging every question in the interest of creating this "they're out to attack me" persona, misses the opportunity to educate people (who aren't going to inbox you directly or offline, lets be real) or at least provide some resources for (real) independent study.

edit:

i see you going through here and answering questions now. good sh*t.

I have often taken hours out of my days to answer many genuine questions, but I refuse to play the game with some of the SAME people that are only interested in creating a mess and then being disrespectful about the matter.

Yaknow.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

no matter who is asking.

You try answering 12 to 18 people with about 7 of them being straight jerks and 5 trying to convolute the conversation just to make a point. The other 4 are good to go and I still may overlook some by accident.

But I have made plenty of honest and sincere attempts to take my time and answer questions. But you say Never. Ok.

I even got people inboxing me hate mail because I didn't answer their questions fast enough, even if I didn't see the question.


Girl, I'm not about to let folks stress me.


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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

but Christianity has been compromising itself for tithes for years
nothing new

>but Christianity has been compromising itself for tithes for
>years
>nothing new
>


In your opinion, how has the church "been compromising itself for tithes for years?"


I'm just asking, not defending a position.





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"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."

War over this shit, I feel like they've already conceded the larger point that a lot of this is kinda of bullshit.

I mean, I know a bunch of Christians who say shit like, "I'd give my life for my faith." But really, they don't interpret their literally enough for that to ever actually occur. They can talk about persecution till they're blue in the face, but they aren't being harassed, at least not in the west. So yeah...the whole thing feels like one continual concession after another accompanied by a bunch of bitching and moaning.

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..." -The Bard

There, does that help little Casey feel better, hmm?

evangelicals are running in to trouble. You can dress it up as doctrine all that you want, but conflating Christianity with "free-market" (classical) liberal economics, unsubstantiated claims about losing religious liberty, and praising people like Falwell are signals that this woman doesn't understand why evangelicals are finding themselves increasingly at odd with the larger culture.


"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..." -The Bard