if there are too many times to count,
just pick one.

I won't snark you.

I really want to know about a time you felt persecuted.

the pastor seems cool, but many of the members talked about
being persecuted for believing in jesus.

the pastor at an ame church on sunday said the same thing in his sermon.


I didn't ask the question to them
because it sounds assholish.

but every time a christian says this,
I am curious about what they feel persecution means.

LOL

i'm curious too.

maybe ppl be making fun of them, but that's about it.

right now, today.

they say it's not easy to
pick up the cross and follow jesus.
but they persevere.

against what, though.

i want to know what they think they are up against.



>LOL
>
>i'm curious too.
>
>maybe ppl be making fun of them, but that's about it.
>

b/c...i mean, there is no other time it happens.

even the prayer in schools thing - i know kids can and do pray in school even where their teachers and admins can't lead them in prayer. if they wanna bow their head and pray to themselves no one stops them. at least no one stopped me when i've done that.

prayer at work - same thing - if an employee wants to pray to themselves while on the job and that prayer doesn't prevent them or their coworkers from doing the job at hand then it's all good.

i guess ppl might feel persecuted where they feel they can't evangelize at work or at school or in certain public settings. and that evangelizing is a key element of some folks practice of their faith.

>
>i guess ppl might feel persecuted where they feel they can't
>evangelize at work or at school or in certain public settings.
> and that evangelizing is a key element of some folks practice
>of their faith.

And generally make people feel uncomfortable in my pursuit for a feeling of superiority.

Give it back.

them. They feel unwelcome by much of the Media. That's part of the reason the support FoxNews in droves.

I think Black Christians probably talk that way more so symbolically, or as a matter of general church culture, though.

so it's just shit talking.

Christians aren't persecuted IMO...

they are joked like crazy tho..

and for good reason.

they think if they get into a debate about religion then it's persecution...when it's not.
I'm a Christian and never felt persecuted.

However, I will say that in certain situations, if you are the only one defending a particular belief or concept to others who don't believe, it can become overwhelming (on this board for instance, it's to extreme groups and the uber Christians are like 2 or 3 people, against the uber atheists who are like 10 or 15 people, so it seems like they are always ganged up on).

But I don't think people actively seek out Christians to harass them or to condemn them. I have never been some place and felt like I couldn't be myself or express my religion if I felt to do so.

^^^^ That all day, especially the kind of people who claim it while comfy behind a computer screen.

>they think if they get into a debate about _________ then it's
>persecution...when it's not.

Easier to defend one's point of view emotionally when they are "persecuted victims."

actually i was a JW (non baptized publisher)
and a baptist wanted to rumble me because he got mad that i said JW was a sect of christianity
so we threw hands off that shit

Pride in my school, not in my catholicism

Anyways in 9th grade i was at the park shooting around by myself when one of a group of arabic kids came up and told me that i was risking an ass whooping wearing that shirt because his friends "hate catholics". My mom lived in a mostly arabic part of dearborn at the time.

I shrugged and went back about my business, nothing happened, the end. I actually always liked that Dearborn had a unique cultural identity and at no point ever really thought there would be an actual problem.

The persecution that wasnt.

Recently, that crazy fuck from Gainesville FL came to Dearborn to rally anti-muslim fervor. The white people in dearborn basically harassed him until he left. That was beautiful to me because Dearborn is hella peaceful. Candlelight vigils by all community members after 9/11 and what not.

there are, however, countries where christians are literally killed for their faith, which is why all the desperate/pathetic claims of victimhood here (think fox news "war on christmas" headlines) is so ridiculous.

too many american christians see any resistance to their attempts to force their particular brand of faith (which is often antithetical to true "love your neighbor" christianity) into the laws that govern everyone as persecution.

instead of really testing the truth in the faith(s)


Since jesus suffered ect then its only right that the faithful suffer the same persecutions. Thats a very bad seed to plant


sets the precedence for the 'why do yall hate me so much' crowd, when there are folks elsewhere really being persecuted/killed.


religion breeds this type of pity party

i know some are going to go in about us not really being Christian (blah, blah, blah, etc) but we have in the past and are currently being persecuted for our faith and beliefs.

of course in Nazi Germany JW's were put in concentration camps and were the only people there who could leave whenever they wanted as long as they denoucned their faith. in this country we've had to go all the way to the Supreme Court numerous times to keep the right to not have to salute the flag in schools, preach door to door, etc. i personally know of people who've had the police called on them and/or arrested just for preaching. most of that persecution ironically came from other people claiming to be Christians themselves.

while things aren't nearly as bad here in the United States anymore there are many JW's around the world today who are being persecuted in one form or another. there's like 600 JW's in prison right now in South Korea because they're conscientious objectors , our property in the Ukraine is being seized unlawfully among other things. there's some countries were we're still banned outright.

>i know some are going to go in about us not really being
>Christian (blah, blah, blah, etc) but we have in the past and
>are currently being persecuted for our faith and beliefs.
>
>of course in Nazi Germany JW's were put in concentration camps
>and were the only people there who could leave whenever they
>wanted as long as they denoucned their faith. in this country
>we've had to go all the way to the Supreme Court numerous
>times to keep the right to not have to salute the flag in
>schools, preach door to door, etc. i personally know of
>people who've had the police called on them and/or arrested
>just for preaching. most of that persecution ironically came
>from other people claiming to be Christians themselves.
>
>while things aren't nearly as bad here in the United States
>anymore there are many JW's around the world today who are
>being persecuted in one form or another. there's like 600
>JW's in prison right now in South Korea because they're
>conscientious objectors , our property in the Ukraine is being
>seized unlawfully among other things. there's some countries
>were we're still banned outright.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

you think knocking on someone's door to talk is harrassment? do you think that warrants pulling out a gun or knife on someone?

>you think knocking on someone's door to talk is harrassment?
>do you think that warrants pulling out a gun or knife on
>someone?

Having been on the receiving end of some pretty hard sell tactics from JWs I can see how some people might react strongly to others knocking on the door. Is it justified? No. But not everyone is civilised and not every JW understands polite refusal so in the middle there is confrontation, but hardly persecution as I see it.

the definition of persecution is "hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs". does that go out the window because you've knocked on someone's door? i'm not talking about people being angry or bothered by the fact that you're at their door. that's fine and they're within their rights to say whatever they want, but threating violence or actually inflicting violence (that happens too) is crossing the line big time. there's no justification for that.

it may not seem that to u...

and this is a man who is about to marry a JW

if you provoke it...it's not persecution

trying to rely on the literal definition without context is dishnonest

if they were to be left alone...the hostility wouldn't exist...

yes it's an overreaction but still

by that definition...JWs persecute those they disfellowship and the worldly...

but luckily...we all know better than that

mistreat...yes...

persecute...no

>it may not seem that to u...
>
>and this is a man who is about to marry a JW
>
>if you provoke it...it's not persecution
>
>trying to rely on the literal definition without context is
>dishnonest
>
>if they were to be left alone...the hostility wouldn't
>exist...
>
>yes it's an overreaction but still
>


to me, i'd say that provoking someone would be bothering someone who has already expressed to you that they don't want to be bothered and you continue to bother them anyway. that is not this. we don't know who we're going to come upon on a daily basis. how would i know who wants to be left alone if they didn't tell me previously? even if that was provication, it's still certainly not justified. and before you ask, yes we do keep track of who says that they want to be left alone. we do not go back to those homes.


>by that definition...JWs persecute those they disfellowship
>and the worldly...

that is not even close to being the same thing at all. people who have been disfellowshipped knew beforehand what would lead to that. that's like saying someone who gets suspended from the NFL for breaking a pre-existing rule is being persecuted. come on.

>the definition of persecution is "hostility and
>ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or
>religious beliefs". does that go out the window because
>you've knocked on someone's door? i'm not talking about
>people being angry or bothered by the fact that you're at
>their door. that's fine and they're within their rights to
>say whatever they want, but threating violence or actually
>inflicting violence (that happens too) is crossing the line
>big time. there's no justification for that.

I wouldn't call reacting poorly to a door to door salesman persecution. I never said it wasn't crossing a line, but it's not persecution to want someone off your own doorstep.

If they had patrols in the streets looking for you with guns, then yeah.

No, it doesn't require any violence, but of course knocking on someone's door and trying to convince them to change religions is harassment. There's just no need to engage with people like that in 2015.

People really do need to understand that "the message" is out there and *incredibly* easy to find for anyone that is in the least bit interested.

How often does someone open their door and say "Well, fuck me... No... I hadn't ever heard about how Jesus died for my sins! Come in and educate me!"

just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it harrassment. i have zero interest in politics, but i don't feel i'm being harrassed when someone comes to my door to try to get my vote for a particular candidate. all you have to do is say no thank you.

believe it or not, people are more receptive than you think. we get interested people who want to talk all the time.

If it's any consolation, I find political canvassers, realtors and double-glazing salesmen very nearly as annoying... as if I hadn't heard of your party or noticed that I needed a whole new set of windows until you knocked on my door...

Home is home IMHO, it's supposed to be private. Sure, some people live their lives with open doors and I'm sure that's wonderful, but many people go home when they want to be cloistered from the outside world. Away from work stress, away from unsolicited interruption... just you, your family and friends that were invited over. Unless you're a delivery man or checking the electricity meter, you're going to have to have a really good reason to burst the weekend bubble and not catch a little bit of snark. Telling me about a God I am told about every day in some way or another really isn't a good enough one.

Canvas for your politics or religion in the street - no problem with that whatsoever.

>If it's any consolation, I find political canvassers,
>realtors and double-glazing salesmen very nearly as
>annoying... as if I hadn't heard of your party or noticed that
>I needed a whole new set of windows until you knocked on my
>door...

totally understandable.

>Home is home IMHO, it's supposed to be private. Sure, some
>people live their lives with open doors and I'm sure that's
>wonderful, but many people go home when they want to be
>cloistered from the outside world. Away from work stress, away
>from unsolicited interruption... just you, your family and
>friends that were invited over. Unless you're a delivery man
>or checking the electricity meter, you're going to have to
>have a really good reason to burst the weekend bubble and not
>catch a little bit of snark. Telling me about a God I am told
>about every day in some way or another really isn't a good
>enough one.

i would say that inside your home is private. not sure that your doorstep is private. you have the option to ignore it or let the person know that you're not interested. totally fine with that. i'm not even mad at people who want to cuss you out and get upset. that's their right too. what i'm talking about it brandishing weapons, actually taking shots at people or turning a dog on them. those are all above and beyond and are never justified by being annoyed.

>Canvas for your politics or religion in the street - no
>problem with that whatsoever.

some people find that annoying too. depends on the person.

The idea was that people who took Jesus and t the scriptures and The Walk seriously were in the extreme minority, even among those who might refer to themselves as Christian. I remember one thing I used to crack up at was when preachers would say that the Devil is sitting right in church on the front pew every Sunday.

So I think when many Christians talk about persecution, they tend to be referring to the type of resistance they get from people for expressing or practicing their beliefs. Most of these things nonbelievers probably wouldn't ever label as persecution. Stuff like sneers when witnessing to people, people wanting to debate the validity of their beliefs, maybe even threats. This type of stuff is probably less prevalent in the Bible Belt or Middle America. But in alot of the big progressive urban centers, and among alot of YTS who have education and higher incomes, you see that kind of seething antipathy more.

To your larger point, I think you confuse what I call Ethnic Christianity with Personal Christianity. EC is like the person who was born into a household where Mom was Christian and the whole family had to go to church 2 times a week. That's a family religious heritage and has nothing to do with what you actually believe - like being Jamaican or Irish or something like that.

Personal Christianity is just that - a personal belief. That's what those Christians are talking about when they refer to themselves as a beleaguered minority.

In alot of ways, American Protestant culture has alot in common with Marxist states in that there's a prevalent cultural idea that there are very few real/legitimate Christians/Marxists/Communists and that we must all be on the lookout for the Enemy's plans to bring us down. Christianity sees "The World" (a big catchphrase in the Black church) as the enemy, and Marxism sees the Capitalists and Counter-revolutionaries the same way.

Maybe that's a cultural relic from the early days of extreme Christian persecution in the Roman world. Or perhaps it come from the early days of the Reformation in Western Europe when it still wasn't entirely clear if Protestantism would survive.

because as someone that is now outsider
(in more ways than I can count)
it is difficult to see myself as anything but
an outsider surrounded by christanity.

praying at city council meetings.
listening to politicians "debate" whether my marriages should
be recognized by the gov't since god won't like it.
listening to ppl bitch about the war on christmas
even though christmas starts in October.

not to mention how often ppl witness to me about the lord.



this explains, I guess, why various liberation movements
are scoffed at by so many ppl.

just the mention of it
is seen as a threat to the mainstream culture.
it's an attack on their identity.

and for some, a failure to attack those movements
may be viewed as a moral failing that god will judge them for.

crazy.


>American Protestant culture has alot in
>common with Marxist states in that there's a prevalent
>cultural idea that there are very few real/legitimate
>Christians/Marxists/Communists and that we must all be on the
>lookout for the Enemy's plans to bring us down. Christianity
>sees "The World" (a big catchphrase in the Black church) as
>the enemy, and Marxism sees the Capitalists and
>Counter-revolutionaries the same way.

In the Northeast, it's not like that at all.

i've never lived in the northeast.
so, maybe.

things and are highly esteemed is at the base of alot of what you express here about Christianity.

that may be part of it, maybe even a large part,
but that's not it entirely.

presidents also play to the whims of christians.
a large part of the republican platform is about
abortion and gay ppl.

not to mention more insidious strangleholds on the national dialogue.
(the dog whistles, the family values camp, etc.)


>things and are highly esteemed is at the base of alot of what
>you express h ere about Christianity.

They also are spread out over most of the more thinly populated parts of the country, which is the majority of the land mass. Nonreligious people seem to huddle together in dense urban centers, ceding much of the control of the rest of the country to the religious.

I actually think most Black Christians are deeply suspicious of the YT Christian power stricture, though.

>They also are spread out over most of the more thinly
>populated parts of the country, which is the majority of the
>land mass. Nonreligious people seem to huddle together in
>dense urban centers, ceding much of the control of the rest of
>the country to the religious.

No. The urban center populations are also wildly religious. That's part of why there are so many churches in all of our urban centers and in the surrounding suburbs. Also the various Catholic dioceses that include urban centers are huge.

>I actually think most Black Christians are deeply suspicious
>of the YT Christian power stricture, though.

Sure, some are. But the Black xtians tend to agree with those white folks on social issues, except maybe as specifically related to race. And hell, I grew up in a very Black and Xtian house where my parents watch all of the major televangelists - white ones - and all of the major Xtian TV networks - white ones. I know other black xtians who do that too. So I dunno.

Not with all of the powerful Catholics and Jewish ppl in office up there. Plus didn't the mayor of NYC try to shut down some art show that had a painting of Mary or Jesus that was made of shit? (See: The Holy Virgin Mary by Chris Ofili)

And when Sinead O'Connor tore up a picture of the Pope in NYC on SNL there was outrage - including from within NYC.

topic.

And Hasidim couldn't care less what anybody else believes or does.

Plus the Sinead O'Connor thing was 20 years ago. That would go over much more smoothly now.

I was willing to entertain this idea about the northeast,
just based on the electoral map.

but then I thought about the christians going apeshit about
the islamic community center after 9-11.

anyway, the whole catholics not counting as christians thing
is sorta killing your argument.

>topic.
>
>And Hasidim couldn't care less what anybody else believes or
>does.
>
>Plus the Sinead O'Connor thing was 20 years ago. That would
>go over much more smoothly now.

Only us stupid folks in flyover country are religious - the enlightened, smrt ppl on the coasts are either non-religious or can keep religion in check so that it has no impact on public life. Us dummies is so dum that we lissen to Jeezus and how he be telling us to vote cuz us so dum.

Generally all of us in the middle and south is dum and they so smrt on the coasts.

check at all.

Your issues are showing.

I too dum cuz I live in the Midwest and grew up in the Bible Belt.

And earlier I forgot to add that you're likely disregarding Catholics as xtians bc you need to twist the facts support your idea that only us dummies is so dum that we elect Xtian ppl to office or want our elected officials and others to make decisions in consideration of their religion.

9/11 mosque thing. They were trying to score points against Obama.

but there were definitely lots of actual NYC residents against it

he's also riding for benghazi and he's insane so there's that too

got it.

>9/11 mosque thing. They were trying to score points against
>Obama.

Black and Latin and Asian and Democratic and liberal Christians had no problem with it, and it wound up happening, as a result.

.

was because alot of the protestations of Catholics are intertwined with ethnic identity. The Irish and the Italians often see attacks on Catholicism as attacks on their ethnic groups. That's a holdover from the days when Catholic and particularly Irish persecution was very real from WASPs and Protestatnts (that basically ended when Kennedy got elected President.) I never hear Mexican Catholics, as an example, get up in arms about any of this kind of stuff - it's mainly the white ethnic Catholics that do.

to march in the St. Patrick's Day parade under their own identifying banner

man that Ofili shit was GREAT. i went to that exhibit (totally not the most offensive thing in that show btw**) and it was just re-exhibited at the New Museum as part of a huge Ofili exhibit which was simply breathtaking

**maybe not offensive but totally gross. one of these was on display http://www.marcquinn.com/work/list/tag/self+%28blood+head%29/

we* are on ash wednesday at lunch time. you walk around the city just like weren't you fucking the stripper in the bathroom of the spot off wall street last night.

we = northeasterners/nyers

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

And not just in flyover country.

So I think when many Christians talk about persecution, they tend to be referring to the type of resistance they get from people for expressing or practicing their beliefs. Most of these things nonbelievers probably wouldn't ever label as persecution. Stuff like sneers when witnessing to people, people wanting to debate the validity of their beliefs, maybe even threats. This type of stuff is probably less prevalent in the Bible Belt or Middle America. But in alot of the big progressive urban centers, and among alot of YTS who have education and higher incomes, you see that kind of seething antipathy more.

^^ this gets marked as persecution, yet what the LGBT community and women go through is trivialised. There's a reason why nonbelievers feel confident not labelling those trifles as persecution, it's because the same Christians crying persecution won't admit when their own do worse to others.

known him for a bit, but we ain't really seen each other when we were. now when we were kids we were cool. christianity was the type that always wanted to tell people what to do, and i'm the kind that'll tag along just to see what happens but overall non-comittal about everything.

by high school christianity had had enough of me. it was like, if you ain't gonna do what i say can't come around no more. then when i just shrugged of christianity got all pissed. it was weird. started calling me names and stuff. i mean it didn't really hurt my feelings too much, but thinking back it was such a manic reaction. at the time i was just like whatever.

so well over a decade later christianity hits me up like, been a long time we should hang out. i'm like cool and we plan to meet up at my local bar. at first christanity is resistant to the whole bar thing, but i'm like its really relaxed. it's also where folk hnow me and after so many years i want to be sure to meet in a public space where i'm known.

so we meet at the bar and i can tell immediately that christanity hasn't changed all that much, just circumstances. apparently christanity has done pretty well so christanity's is trying to impress me so christianity pulls out this card and starts buying me drinks. yeah that's weird cause christanity ain't drinking but i'm like whatever i like free drinks.

then there's a change in tone and suddenly i realize he's trying to sell me something. talking about how he's getting paid, and i'm like crap MLM shoulda known better. i try to tell christanity i don't really mess with that type of thing, and he starts going off about how i'm going to stuck in my mundane existance until i rise up and blah blah blah. i'm not interested but the bartender starts getting intrigued. i see christanity's eyse widen.

i've had enough so i say my goodbye's, but christianity just hangs out there. come to find out he got the bartender the owner and three regular customers in on his thing. they all lost money. so now i'm not allowed in my favorite bar anymore.

persecuted for christiantiy.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Would read again.

urging his parents to vote.

it was right before the Clinton and Dole election.

our vocally Republican teacher (I was living in the High Desert at the time) assigned that as our homework for the day.

since my homie refused to do it he assigned the whole class actual bullshit homework and told us we can thank the homie for it.

i was hella proud of and mad at my nigga.

>
>i was hella proud of and mad at my nigga.

?

.

No we respect personal space

Same would be for Christians except they believe other folk personal space is theirs
a lot like tourists

Lessons in mine/theirs are needed

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

and I didn't find the people rude at all. If I lived in a vertically-built city made up of islands that is occupied by ten million people, I'd value my space too.
Believe me, rude people are just as universal as well-mannered people.

and half the rudeness is interrupting your convo to let you know they aren't impressed because they are from NY

People don't use words correctly anymore.

A lot of Christians are consistently challenged on their views, especially after they share them in an over zealous and final way. (ie. Christ is the only way to heaven, you will go to hell otherwise.)

I suppose if you get angry and tell a Christian off, etc. they will probably take that as "persecution".

Spent a good amount of time, money and energy on the chick.

She gonna curb me cause I ain't muslim.

Like, word? You knew I wasn't muslim when we went to dinner, Yazi.

J/K.. Carry on.
.
.
.
"Today is your day to have a better life -- it's your right."