>I wasn't opining on how it should be. I am speaking to how it
>is. We all have different values so I wouldn't tell someone
>else how it should be.

Nah you were insinuating that what you see is the norm and as you say below i'm talking crazy talk.

>>>I also don't buy the notion that it boils down to what's
>>>effective.
>>
>>I mean what's the measure then?

Still didn't answer this.

>>>A mother and a nanny aren't equals and I don't
>>>think the best idea or most effective idea prevails.
>>
>>I say they should be. If one just thinks of them as hired
>help
>>it will dictate the nature of the relationship. Yes they
>are
>>being paid, but they are being paid to be an important part
>of
>>a child's life. They may end up spending more time with the
>>children than the parent, in which case they will be a
>better
>>judge of what's effective. If a parent hasn't hired a
>person
>>that they can trust to make those decisions based on their
>>experiences not just what they are told the grounds for the
>>tension and breakdowns are there from the start. They are
>>becoming an integral part of a family. Treat them as such or
>>yeah there will be resentments.
>
>
>I think you are talking crazy and I think very few people
>would agree with you.

See you did it again. Other people are like you. I'm crazy.

>You can certainly acknowledge the
>importance of the role of a nanny and not treat them like the
>hired help AND at the same time acknowledge that they are not
>parenting equals.
>
>Their input is valued and welcomed but
>ultimately they take your direction.


You're using this idea of 'parenting equals' to invalidate everything I've said because it just makes you feel wrong. And see this is the underlying part of the tension. The "I am the parent, buck stops with me" shit. The nanny will never be the parent. That's a fact. They will never replace the parent as the 'parent'. But fact they are spending more time with the kids than the parent. Quality time. The children may come to the nanny before the parent with questions. The children may even be more comfortable just talking to the nanny than the parent. They may tell the nanny things they would never tell the parent. And guess what, the nanny over time will sy/empathize with the children too. Over time they will develop a relationship with the nanny.

Now if you've created a bond and trust with the nanny, they will come to you with all of these things. They will tell you, your child wishes you'd spend a little more time with them. Or they can keep that to themselves resenting you as the child grows to. And all your 'well i'm the parent' stuff means nothing to them. This shit happens. If you think it doesn't because you don't see it around you, you need to look beyond.

> Your nanny has a say in whether you circumcise your kid or
>not? Whether corporal punishment is used? What religion your
>child will or not be raised in?

These are just dumb questions.

>Fact is I don't think you will find anyone else who would say
>that there is someome other than the actual parents who are
>their parenting equal.

Again, you're just trying to satisfy yourself rather than hear what I'm actually saying.

>I think that goes for the grandma who help out with the kids
>and definitely goes for a hired nanny.
>
>And mind you I speak on this as a person who was practically
>raised by a caregiver who was not my parents. I called her
>grandma and spoke at her funeral a few years ago. And as
>close as we were and as much as I loved her I never thought of
>her as my parents equal and I doubt she saw herself as such.

That's excellent. I'm not talking about parenting equals. I'm talking about someone with equal responsibility in raising a child. It's on par with the trust you'll put in teachers, except more intimate. Open lines of communication and trust in them to make decisions.

>>Over the person that's had years of experience with children
>>and spends more time with the children than the child? If
>>someone can't take honest advice from the nanny, they
>probably
>>shouldn't have one.
>
>You are not saying take advice from the nanny. You are saying
>the nanny has equal say and that is ridiculous.

Nope you're saying that to negate what I'm saying. Like seriously look at what you just wrote in response to what I just wrote. I literally said 'take honest advice' and you translated that to 'equal say'. LOL!!

>>No I'm asking the nanny about what she observes in the kids.
>>What she's doing that is effective, and what suggestions she
>>may have for them.
>
>that doesn't sound like an equal. That's seeking advice from
>an employee with first hand knowledge.

No shit because that's exactly what I just said. You're the one holding on to the literal of 'equal'. Why does the notion of equality with a nanny bother you so much? And I think its general equality not equality as a parent because if I said those words it isn't with all the meaning you're trying to put into it. So what is it about this equality with the nanny that you find so disturbing.

>Trust has nothing to do with deciding how to raise your kid.

Uhhh trust has everything to do with raising children. In fact I'd say trust is the backbone of all relationships.

>I think every parenting style is different and no two people
>would raise their child alike so when it comes to hiring
>someone to help you raise your child part of the job is being
>willing to execute your visiion of how you want your child
>raised.

Yes and then you have to be able to trust them to do so, but also have the trust in them to understand that vision enough to know if there are pieces of it that aren't working, and make adjustments that fit into your value base, and advise you of that so that you can come to a collective agreement on those adjustments.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."