>i think it's relevant.
>
>i'm curious about how you define and recognize Black culture.
>
>what does Black culture mean? or mean to you? what is it? what
>is it to you?
>
>you say jazz is Black culture. how is jazz Black culture?
>
>jazz is Black culture because _______________________.
>
>no snark-- i'd like to know and understand how you'd fill in
>that blank. if you reply to this-- more than anything, i'd
>like you to answer your own sense of how/why jazz is Black
>culture.
:
Its important to understand, and maybe I wasn't emphasizing this enough, that, on the point of whether its black culture, I'm questioning whether its a culture with exclusively black origins, not whether hip-hop is part of a rich black culture (obviously it is) or whether it would be the same without black people or black culture (obviously it would not).

When I look at how jazz or blues or funk came about, it seems so much more straightforward. Those movements were born among virtually nothing but black people, and others showed up after. When you listen to Kool Herc and his ppl tell stories of the first hip-hop gatherings in the Bronx and what the crowd looked like, or when you look at who was out there tagging/bombing in the 60s-70s, or where some elements that merged into b-boying came from, etc, it was majority black but much more diverse that those other movements (being NYC and not the deep south, this isn't surprising).

So is it part of black culture? Of course. Is it deeply tied to other aspects of black culture? Yes. In that sense, id call it black culture. But I think its also part of New York culture, I think its part of the culture of everyone who was engaged in it. To a New Yorker in the earliest beginnings, it was probably considered Bronx culture or what have you. To an Australian in 2014 its considered american culture. Similar to how we consider an italian dish to be Italian when at the time of its inception, italians would consider it belonging to whichever neighborhood in Italy birthed it...it starts with one or a few people, spreads around town, then fills the region, then fills the globe. The distinction between Italy and Southern France is mostly arbitrary/legal, not necessarily cultural. Why? Natural cultural spread and pollination. The distinction between that relationship and America-to-Italy is at that point just gradient/scale. Thus pasta is part of ziti-loving Jim O'Leary's culture who grew up on the stuff from his pasta-loving Irish mom in Rhode Island.

While things like jazz/blues/funk sprung right out of all-black gatherings, black churches or all-black segregated circles pulling almost exclusively from prior black movements, Hip-hop was an urban melange from the jump, and the elements came from everything from funk to chinese kung-fu to west-coast mexican pop-locking to Jamaican style dance parties to greek and puerto rican kids with spray cans etc. Even the earliest pioneers of sampling weren't all black.

Virtually everything that distinguishes blues/jazz/funk from other musical forms comes directly out of the black experience. There's nothing intrinsically or specifically black about graffiti or practicing kung fu moves you saw in a movie while listening to music. Black kids did it. So did other kids. Or sampling. Or even rhyming in rhythmic cadence within a song.


>>I still would be wrong to claim it for myself and tell others
>I
>>created it and they can't get it. Its just not how culture
>>works.
>
>*listening*
>
>as a Black woman, i don't reach the same conclusions.
>
>perhaps this is ground where there is a cultural point of
>difference and not simply "how things work"--
>
>i'm proud of my ancestry and feel connected to "cultural
>things", as well.
>
>but i do claim my culture and "cultural things" as my own
>because someone gave it to me-- they passed it to me as a gift
>(often with the express and explicit hope that the gift would
>continue, grow, express).
>
>it's mine.
:
I get that and respect that. I'd add that I think this feeling is found among people of all cultures to a degree, sometimes beautiful and sometimes unhealthy. That feeling that culture connects you directly to your ancestors and thus the feeling of possessiveness. I remember my little sister as a teenager getting really upset when her Mexican best friend since babyhood told her "nah, pesto tortellini is my favorite dish" (oversimplifying only slightly) and my sister felt like her gift from our elders was being put on the line lol. Add the fact that black people have had so much taken from you, etc etc.


>i inherited it. in some instances, with specific wisdom,
>stories, and input from those who gave me the gift.
:
I suppose this is where I push back but only slightly. I'm sure YOU inherited those things of your ancestors, but I'm not totally sure where I stand when it comes to anyone of an ancestry inheriting everything their ancestors were into. Because, while its a beautiful thought, it would also be a very very large amount of things and how does it happen and how many ancestors deep does it stop?

Generally though I think it's cool to just accept the idea so people can claim to be part of things we feel connected to in our roots. But I might feel connected to some shit from French, Caribbean, Swiss or Italian culture only to find out my ancestors had nothing to do with that thing, and that's only a delay in the inevitable reality that even if they did, I did not.

But the other part of this I push back slightly is with hip-hop being something ONLY black people inherited, or even something inherited at all when its so recent. Like, if Azaelia Banks wants hip-hop to be Black and Black only and wants to have higher claim to it by virtue of her Blackness than some of the original hip-hoppers who were Mexican or Greek or whatnot, I have a hard time seeing where that even makes sense, never mind how those OGs are supposed to accept that and defer to her on all matters hip hop.


>it's up to me to be a good steward. to remember those who gave
>the gift and to contribute to the continuation of the gift in
>a meaningful way that honors and remembers those who came
>before me and those who will live after me...people who i will
>*GIVE* "cultural things" to.
>
>so to say it's MINE--*i* is WE. and we is *i*.
>
>so YES-- if anyone can and can't say what is and isn't?--it's
>ME. US. the gift is mine/ours to do with what we will.
:
I feel you when it comes to griot, but graf? Not seeing it.


>i get the undercurrent of azaelea banks' frustration.
>
>if the gift is being exploited, misused, disrespected,
>misrepresented? YES Black people need to say so!!! they need
>to say so, no matter what race/culture/nationality the
>disrespect may occur. that's the decent thing to do. the
>respectful thing.
:
Absolutely! But

A: I think all hip-hoppers or ppl who care about it need to say so when a gift is being exploited/disrespected.

B: I truly don't believe she was simply mad about it being abused or misused. She's been going exclusively at white artists, including cats who are doing it with respect and trying to uplift (Macklemore).

C: Culture is like language. Loving it is a double edged sword, because it can't be contained once its breathed into existence and "corruption", adoption, dilution, splintering and transformation is an INEVITABLE part of its existence. That's how new culture and language arises. Gatekeepers of language purity tend to live in heavy frustration watching Latin get destroyed by the Gauls and Franks, turned into French who now cringe at the slightest grammatical faux pas.

Before hip-hop had its own name, it was just seen as a complete corruption of every name-having thing that it took from. Corruption of the poetry, corruption of musicianship, corruption of funk, of fine art, of typography, of dancing, of martial arts, etc. As much as we LOVE hip-hop, we cannot avoid seeing people do new shitty things with it until someone does something inspired with that new shitty thing and it becomes worthy of its own name. You could say, " easy for you to sat white man" but its not easy for me to say because my heart is in this. I just won't be in denial that culture is nothing more than a constant flow of morphing forms of expression and influence that lucks out and gets an official name at certain points of the journey. But I CRINGE when I hear about a hip-hop dance class or listen to 10 seconds of Iggy Azalea.

D: when is rhyming over music hip-hop and when is it so different that it's just part of the much much longer tradition of all kinds of humans rhyming things to music? Is Iggy hip-hop or is she just Iggy?



>it keeps everybody honest.
>
>Black people, consciously and unconsciously, have SHARED their
>GIFTS with the world.
>
>i think it's great that you feel connected to Black culture
>and art forms-- that you engage and participate. of course,
>you don't need my permission to do that. nor do i want you to
>ask or think you should have to seek permission from me or any
>other Black person. NO BLACK PERSON, at least not one that
>i've encountered (grant it, i don't know all Black people etc)
>wants or is asking specific non-Blacks or groups of non-Blacks
>to do or be anything other than who or what they are when
>encountering and submerging themselves in Black culture.
>
>the idea that cultural STEWARDSHIP is harmful is unfortunate.
>
>for me?
>
>if anyone wants to engage Black culture go for it.
>
>but YES i WILL say something when the culture is represented
>or misunderstood in crazy or problematic ways.
:
I feel you.


>mindblowing to me as well, that those who profess interest in
>the culture would be defensive about stewardship or requests
>that one, indeed, DOES represent the actual culture. but
>that's too much like right.
:
I'm not defensive at all about stewardship of hip-hop culture. Yes, I think its important for everyone's sanity to remind ourselves that this is what culture does. It warps, jumps ship, becomes contagious, splinters, etc. But me? I'm very sensitive about hip-hop and seeing it misrepresented because I love it. That also goes to the only thing I'm defensive about, and that's a woman 10 years my junior saying I'm stealing it from her and a bunch of people I respect co-signing her. The reason I took it a bit personally is because if a dude as respectful and honest as a Macklemore is in the crosshairs, then that's just now about saying all white hip-hoppers are frauds and thieves.



>
>note: people have done whatever they wanted and pushed a lot
>of provocative creative and expressive boundaries (Black and
>otherwise) in ways that DO represent and engage in
>conversation with Black culture.
:
Understood and agreed


>> If a Frankie Scambolini from down the block grew
>>up eating mostly tacos and beef teriyaki, never took to
>>Italian food like his black friend Bobby who loves ziti,
>then
>>the truth would be Frankie's culture is tacos and teriyaki
>and
>>Bobby's is ziti.
>
>i disagree.
>
>>It doesn't matter what their grandparents ate,
>
>from my cultural perspective as a Black woman, it DOES
>matter.
:
K



>>because the future defines a culture by what people actually
>DID
>
>i don't understand what you mean.
>
>nor do i think it's true that the future defines a culture by
>what a people may have actually done.
>
>if so, i think the difficult political and racial climate in
>the states wouldn't be so strident and heated. for starters,
>there would be justice.
:
I'm not talking at all about the glaring bias in history books etc.

What I'm getting at is everything that is considered X culture is based on what X people enjoyed doing etc. When noodles are brought to Italy from China , everyone in Italy was like "that's not Italian culture, that's Chinese" ...then more Italians take a liking to the noodles, start doing their own thing with them, and we look at Italian culture and include pasta in our picture .

It doesn't even have to be that elaborate. Culture is how people live. We don't define Irish culture by their ancient ancient Ethiopian roots. We define them by what they do. And that is changing. In the future, ideas about what Japanese culture is all about will be drastically different from how people 200 years ago defined it. Many of those new things that define their culture came from elsewhere, were adopted, and now that's their lifestyle and thus will be seen as their culture.

Heritage and culture aren't the same thing. Culture is what you do, heritage is what your predecessors did. Cultural heritage is what you receive from them. You will be absorbing new culture in addition to that heritage, from unique outside sources, and that will be what your grandkids argue about as their culture and heritage.