>I’m glad I took a beat because it allows me to see how
>folks are talking past each other.
>
>Some folks think this is a conversation about the War in Gaza

That is literally the point of his tragic protest. You cannot separate the two, no matter how badly you want to.

You sound like a pro-gun person after a mass shooting on some "now is not the time to talk about guns" shit.

It is absolutely the time.

This kid clearly had issues...but there was a major trigger to this you can't just ignore because you are trying to make a rhetorical point.

>while the rest of us are thinking about this as suicide as a
>form of protest.
>
>It would be great if we could s set the War in Gaza aside for
>a second

But, you can't do that. Whatever his mental state, he did this in response to what is happening in Gaza.

because I am in total agreement with this kid and
>everyone else here who are saying that a genocide is occurring
>in Gaza and it's happening with material US Support.

Why, do you think, you have posted more criticism of this poor kid than the US and Israel?

If you are in such agreement, why are you seemingly more triggered by his death than the thousands of innocent Palestinians?

They are being bombed relentlessly, starved, and shot at while trying to get flour.

But, what this kid did is somehow more important to you. At least, based on how much you want to talk about it to shit on him.

>
>So it really makes me want to cuss someone out when they
>equate being against Self Immolation as a form of protest with
>being pro-Israel. It’s lazy and unserious and I will ignore
>it going forward other than to say now go fuck yourself.
>
>It is because people here are only thinking about it in terms
>of the war in Gaza,

Because that is literally what this is about.

I keep asking people is
>self-immolation/suicide an acceptable form of protest for PETA
>campaigns, wanting the US to return to a gold standard, to
>protect the monarch butterfly from extinction, etc.

Yeah comparing dead innocent people to butterflies isn't a good look for someone who is claiming to be on the same side.




>
>It would be good for the discussion if folks acknowledge that
>if someone did this to save the Monarch Butterfly from
>extinction, we would all probably think there is something
>materially wrong with that person and no one would describe
>them as a “revolutionary” like folks did this kid in this
>point.


Again, this isn't about dead butterflies. This is about dead human beings. Bombed. Starved. Shot. Etc.

All with US backing, money, cheerleading, etc.

I haven't seen one person call this kid revolutionary. Not one.


I have seen some compassionate analysis. I have seen people say he tried desperately to raise awareness. I have seen vigils, etc.

And I have seen smooth brained blue maga types dismiss and shit on the poor kid. I've seen devils advocate type assholes who try and come up with comparisons to protests about butterflies.

I haven't seen one person call him a revolutionary. Maybe I missed something here, but it seems like you made that up in your head to justify shitting on him.


>
>I am making a value judgement that I think no one should
>commit Self-Immolation under any circumstances and in no
>instance should we encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble
>the act of Self-Immolation no matter how righteous the cause.
>This is my first major point.

The problem is you are the same guy who applauded some 130 year old senator for shitting on protesting kids.


You don't exactly have a good track record for compassion, empathy, etc on these issues.

You have a track record of siding with those in power, for some reason.


>I think in an honest discussion folks who are
>supporting/cheering this act would admit that what they
>believe this cause is worth suicide but there are other causes
>that aren’t worth the loss of life. That is, they are
>making a value judgement as well.


I haven't seen one single person say this was worth it.

I have seen people put more blame on those in power who are funding/committing/etc these atrocities.

But that would require criticizing those in power, rather than this kid. And that isn't your style.

>
>My second major point is that I do firmly believe that
>self-immolation is always the act of a fanatical extremist or
>someone pushed beyond their mental capacity to deal with
>external issues (which is the case with almost everyone who
>decides to take their life). I am okay with stepping away from
>the pejorative term “crazy” because folks find it
>dismissive which I get. Folks though also seemed to be
>bothered by calling it a mental illness but that’s only the
>case if you believe those dealing with mental illness aren’t
>dealing with real issues. If a guy kills himself because his
>girlfriend broke up with him that is not the normal or
>positive reaction for anyone but that doesn’t mean the issue
>he was dealing with isn’t serious or real and they are
>dealing it with real conviction.
>
>Anyway, I keep going back to examples of religious fanaticism
>in connection with this Airman’s suicide because I do
>believe the line between his sort of fanaticism and religious
>fanaticism is thin if it exist at all.
>
>Do we really think that it is a coincidence that the most
>known and cited exampled of SI was committed by a MONK. Or
>that Norman Morrison had a deeply religious background? Do we
>think this kid’s upbringing on a religious compound has
>nothing to do with anything? Is it also a coincidence when 7
>cents cites Huey Newton’s idea of Revolutionary Suicide the
>only people to actually kill themselves in the name
>revolutionary suicide are some of the JonesTown folks (and I
>say “some” because I acknowledge a lot of people killed in
>that massacre were compelled to do it).
>
>And I do think this Airman is very much in the fanatical
>extremist mold of Thich Quang Duc and Norman Morrison.

Or he was a kid yes with mental health issues to do this but also thought it would raise awareness.

And before everyone was in their social media silos- and the media wasn't garbage- this might have worked.

This isn't to say that it was or would have been worth it. But you are essentially saying this kid offed himself because he was basically a member of a cult.

That is...not true and an extremely fucked up view to have.

He was a troubled kid with seemingly a good heart who didn't have an outlet.



I also
>don’t think Mohamed Bouazizi belongs in this group. I read
>as much as I’ve ever read about Mohamed Bouazizi yesterday
>and I was expecting to find that he was a deeply religious
>person. I didn’t find anything to support that other than
>he was from a deeply religious country Tunisia. What I did
>find out and did not know was that his act seems very spur of
>the moment. Not planned out like the other folks mentioned. A
>rash act in a very desperate moment. I would go so far as to
>say, but don’t want to get distracted arguing this point,
>that his Self-Immolation was not a political protest at all.
>Like Chris Lighty and many other suicide victims, a person who
>was already in a bad place who did a very rash act in a moment
>they felt overwhelmed. Despite the political revolution his
>death sparked, I don’t think its accurate to describe his
>death as a form of political protest, it just looks like so
>many other unplanned suicides. Mohamed Bouazizi in my mind
>has more in common with George Floyd than Thich Quang Duc,
>that is, his unplanned death sparked a large scale political
>movement.
>
>Anyway, back to my point. I think people are having a hard
>time wrapping their mind around the idea that a person can be
>a fanatical extremist about a worthy righteous cause.

No, I think its that you - for some reason - are wired to defend those in power and dismiss those who question it in any way.

To light yourself on fire is fanatic, yes. Not sure what you think you win here.

We just
>had another post somewhere where folks acknowledged that if
>you internalized all the fucked up shit going on around the
>world, it would be unhealthy and you wouldn’t be able to
>function. I think this kid is an example of that. So yeah, I
>stand by the idea that this kid did not have a healthy mental
>state.
>

That isn't all you are doing though. You- and others- are downplaying a major root cause of this.

And that is the USA is funding/cheerleading/defending/etc these horrific acts.

And this is what is happening with the "lesser evil" in charge.

Where is the line? If it isn't genocide, what is it?


>Which kind of leads to my biggest (final) point about this. I
>don’t see how we have this many posts and no one acknowledge
>that this happened during the biggest mental health crisis
>among young people this Country has ever seen. Do we really
>believe that this death has nothing to do with that? Has
>anyone here NOT been touched by this crisis? Would you go
>around any of the young people you know who may be close to an
>unhealthy state and describe this Airman as a
>“revolutionary”?

Why are you more upset with this kid getting attention than the awful things that triggered his action, my good libera?


>
>In ALMOST all other instances (exception being when folks are
>dealing with terminable physical or mental conditions) we
>consider suicide to be a reflection of mental health but this
>is the one exception? The one that happens to line up with
>your politics?

You don't always have to play devils advocate, man.


Not everything is a law-school debate.



>
>That’s why I said above that romanticizing/celebrating what
>this kid has done is immoral/wreckless/irresponsible.
>
>And that’s why I am going to call bullshit on Walleye
>because he seems to suggest (in 66#) that my type of shunning
>of Self-Immolation is a form of “Good Liberals” pearl
>clutching regarding what it takes to cause real change in this
>country.

Its because you "good liberals" get more worked up by this than actual genocide.

Think on why you have spent so much time diving into this kid's mental state than you have other shit.



I think Walleye is trying to have it both ways in
>saying that he isn’t taking a moral stand whether
>Self-Immolation is right or wrong its just is what it is and
>will always be a part of history; at the same time
>acknowledging that murder is immoral as a form of protest; AND
>at the same time writing this “But the way it plays out is
>that every war is bad, except the current war which is
>necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the
>right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad
>and done the wrong way.”
>
>Again, maybe he meant something else, but I take that “Good
>Liberals” don’t want to get there hands dirty with what it
>takes to create change.

No, its that "good liberals" will downplay/ignore/etc any form of protest or criticism when the "lesser evil" is doing the killing.

That the left used to bang for shit...and how we got people like you celebrating a 145 year old politician shitting on kids and being more upset about one dead kid getting attention vs thousands who have not.

That's the good liberal.

I think Walleye is being slick and
>using lots of words but avoiding the telling us whether he
>thinks people should not commit Self-Immolation as a form of
>protest in a way I am sure he would condemn murder or rape as
>a form of protest.

I can't speak for him, but I take it as he wants you to have as much energy for governments slaughtering people as you do some kid getting attention because he didn't know how to handle his pain.



>I will once again say I will not advocate for any form of
>protest that I don't want for my own children to take part in
>and I think it's wreckless/immoral and irresponsible for
>anybody to do it for someone else's children.

I know you thought this was deep, but most of us have kids. None of us want that.

Also, none of us want our kids to be bombed, starved, etc. Maybe save some energy for that.

And for the
>avoidance of doubt, I don’t think the actual act itself is
>immoral, and actually think deserves sympathy and should not
>be judged too harshly (like any other person who has committed
>suicide).

And yet, that is precisely what you have done by ignoring/downplaying a big reason he did it.

>
>I’ve written enough but a few more final points I want to
>make:
>1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so
>pointless and meaningless. We won’t be talking about this
>death in 3 months. It won’t change the course of the war.
>It will have no impact on awareness and making who were,
>somehow, unaware of the genocide all of a sudden aware. With
>so many brutal images already coming out of Gaza, it will not
>add anything to shock the senses of people. The trade of 15
>minutes of news time and a long OKP discussion aren’t worth
>the loss of a life. I think if this kid did not grow up on a
>religious commune and didn’t come of age during the worst
>mental health crisis for young people, the kid would probably
>have just quit the Airforce and maybe go volunteer somewhere.

I haven't seen anyone disagree with this, but go off.

>
>
>2. I guess there is a part of this that ticks me off that
>ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this. In
>fact, I’d bet that if he asked any Palestinian how he could
>help this is absolutely the last thing that would asked of
>him. To put his death on the Palestinian people is messed up.

There's no way you are this fucking stupid. No one is putting his death on Palestinians, my good liberal. I guess maybe you did, by saying "no Palestinian asked for this!" as if that was...news.

They are putting it on his mental health AND the trigger- the genocide that the US is funding/supplying/defending/etc.

Have some smoke for that.




>
>
>
>3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it. I
>never doubted his conviction or what he saw as his motivation.
>I have no problem taking him for his word before the act. What
>I do wonder though is that in the seven hours after he set
>himself on fire and was still alive, did he maybe have a
>change of heart and wish he didn’t do it. Yall confident he
>did not??

You have given this a creepy amount of thought. How much thought have you given to the starving kids getting bombed?

>
>4. Comparing the rationality of his act to joining the
>military is asinine. There is personal upside to joining the
>military even though you risk your life. The military lifted
>both my grandfathers out of poverty and placed them in the
>middle class when there was no other opportunity for black
>men.

Oh shit, this explains a fucking lot. You come from a military family. A good liberal who also defers to authority and thinks everything is a topic for debate class, etc.

Despite this, you don't need to be this way.


Without endorsing anything the military does, you can see
>why countless people without opportunity I drawn to the
>military. The personal upside can be tremendous. You cn also
>change your mind if you don’t like it.

WTF does this have to do with anything other than your upbringing kicking in to reflexively defend the military, authority, etc??



With suicide there is
>no such upside or ability to change your mind.
>
>
>I've got a lot of words on this because I feel strongly about
>it (...and I haven't been drinking for a while and got a gang
>of energy and clarity), had a young frat brother recently take
>his life

I am genuinely sorry to hear that. I have also lost someone to suicide. There are no words.

I've never once thought to log on to a message board and shit on someone who committed suicide, though. We all mourn differently, I guess.



and also listened to this story about a recent
>suicide cluster at a New England.
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/podcasts/the-daily/mental-health-education.html
>

It isn't guns, its mental health! That's what you sound like.


It can be both. He can be a troubled kid who was (understandably) deeply impacted by what is happening, and didn't know how to handle it.

Throw some energy/thought/criticism to the governments doing this.


Or continue to frantically post about this one kid who dared question authority and anyone who wants to talk about one of the biggest reasons why he did this.

And the other kids who your girl clapped back on, etc.





>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"