I’m glad I took a beat because it allows me to see how folks are talking past each other.

Some folks think this is a conversation about the War in Gaza while the rest of us are thinking about this as suicide as a form of protest.

It would be great if we could s set the War in Gaza aside for a second because I am in total agreement with this kid and everyone else here who are saying that a genocide is occurring in Gaza and it's happening with material US Support.

So it really makes me want to cuss someone out when they equate being against Self Immolation as a form of protest with being pro-Israel. It’s lazy and unserious and I will ignore it going forward other than to say now go fuck yourself.

It is because people here are only thinking about it in terms of the war in Gaza, I keep asking people is self-immolation/suicide an acceptable form of protest for PETA campaigns, wanting the US to return to a gold standard, to protect the monarch butterfly from extinction, etc.

It would be good for the discussion if folks acknowledge that if someone did this to save the Monarch Butterfly from extinction, we would all probably think there is something materially wrong with that person and no one would describe them as a “revolutionary” like folks did this kid in this point.

I am making a value judgement that I think no one should commit Self-Immolation under any circumstances and in no instance should we encourage, applaud, romanticize, ennoble the act of Self-Immolation no matter how righteous the cause. This is my first major point.
I think in an honest discussion folks who are supporting/cheering this act would admit that what they believe this cause is worth suicide but there are other causes that aren’t worth the loss of life. That is, they are making a value judgement as well.

My second major point is that I do firmly believe that self-immolation is always the act of a fanatical extremist or someone pushed beyond their mental capacity to deal with external issues (which is the case with almost everyone who decides to take their life). I am okay with stepping away from the pejorative term “crazy” because folks find it dismissive which I get. Folks though also seemed to be bothered by calling it a mental illness but that’s only the case if you believe those dealing with mental illness aren’t dealing with real issues. If a guy kills himself because his girlfriend broke up with him that is not the normal or positive reaction for anyone but that doesn’t mean the issue he was dealing with isn’t serious or real and they are dealing it with real conviction.

Anyway, I keep going back to examples of religious fanaticism in connection with this Airman’s suicide because I do believe the line between his sort of fanaticism and religious fanaticism is thin if it exist at all.

Do we really think that it is a coincidence that the most known and cited exampled of SI was committed by a MONK. Or that Norman Morrison had a deeply religious background? Do we think this kid’s upbringing on a religious compound has nothing to do with anything? Is it also a coincidence when 7 cents cites Huey Newton’s idea of Revolutionary Suicide the only people to actually kill themselves in the name revolutionary suicide are some of the JonesTown folks (and I say “some” because I acknowledge a lot of people killed in that massacre were compelled to do it).

And I do think this Airman is very much in the fanatical extremist mold of Thich Quang Duc and Norman Morrison. I also don’t think Mohamed Bouazizi belongs in this group. I read as much as I’ve ever read about Mohamed Bouazizi yesterday and I was expecting to find that he was a deeply religious person. I didn’t find anything to support that other than he was from a deeply religious country Tunisia. What I did find out and did not know was that his act seems very spur of the moment. Not planned out like the other folks mentioned. A rash act in a very desperate moment. I would go so far as to say, but don’t want to get distracted arguing this point, that his Self-Immolation was not a political protest at all. Like Chris Lighty and many other suicide victims, a person who was already in a bad place who did a very rash act in a moment they felt overwhelmed. Despite the political revolution his death sparked, I don’t think its accurate to describe his death as a form of political protest, it just looks like so many other unplanned suicides. Mohamed Bouazizi in my mind has more in common with George Floyd than Thich Quang Duc, that is, his unplanned death sparked a large scale political movement.

Anyway, back to my point. I think people are having a hard time wrapping their mind around the idea that a person can be a fanatical extremist about a worthy righteous cause. We just had another post somewhere where folks acknowledged that if you internalized all the fucked up shit going on around the world, it would be unhealthy and you wouldn’t be able to function. I think this kid is an example of that. So yeah, I stand by the idea that this kid did not have a healthy mental state.

Which kind of leads to my biggest (final) point about this. I don’t see how we have this many posts and no one acknowledge that this happened during the biggest mental health crisis among young people this Country has ever seen. Do we really believe that this death has nothing to do with that? Has anyone here NOT been touched by this crisis? Would you go around any of the young people you know who may be close to an unhealthy state and describe this Airman as a “revolutionary”?

In ALMOST all other instances (exception being when folks are dealing with terminable physical or mental conditions) we consider suicide to be a reflection of mental health but this is the one exception? The one that happens to line up with your politics?

That’s why I said above that romanticizing/celebrating what this kid has done is immoral/wreckless/irresponsible.

And that’s why I am going to call bullshit on Walleye because he seems to suggest (in 66#) that my type of shunning of Self-Immolation is a form of “Good Liberals” pearl clutching regarding what it takes to cause real change in this country. I think Walleye is trying to have it both ways in saying that he isn’t taking a moral stand whether Self-Immolation is right or wrong its just is what it is and will always be a part of history; at the same time acknowledging that murder is immoral as a form of protest; AND at the same time writing this “But the way it plays out is that every war is bad, except the current war which is necessary. Every past protest that succeeded was done the right way, but the current one that hasn't succeeded is bad and done the wrong way.”

Again, maybe he meant something else, but I take that “Good Liberals” don’t want to get there hands dirty with what it takes to create change. I think Walleye is being slick and using lots of words but avoiding the telling us whether he thinks people should not commit Self-Immolation as a form of protest in a way I am sure he would condemn murder or rape as a form of protest.
I will once again say I will not advocate for any form of protest that I don't want for my own children to take part in and I think it's wreckless/immoral and irresponsible for anybody to do it for someone else's children. And for the avoidance of doubt, I don’t think the actual act itself is immoral, and actually think deserves sympathy and should not be judged too harshly (like any other person who has committed suicide).

I’ve written enough but a few more final points I want to make:
1. As a practical matter, suicide as a form of protest is so pointless and meaningless. We won’t be talking about this death in 3 months. It won’t change the course of the war. It will have no impact on awareness and making who were, somehow, unaware of the genocide all of a sudden aware. With so many brutal images already coming out of Gaza, it will not add anything to shock the senses of people. The trade of 15 minutes of news time and a long OKP discussion aren’t worth the loss of a life. I think if this kid did not grow up on a religious commune and didn’t come of age during the worst mental health crisis for young people, the kid would probably have just quit the Airforce and maybe go volunteer somewhere.

2. I guess there is a part of this that ticks me off that ABSOLUTELY NO PALESTINIAN asked that young man to do this. In fact, I’d bet that if he asked any Palestinian how he could help this is absolutely the last thing that would asked of him. To put his death on the Palestinian people is messed up.


3. I am also unmoved by his statement as to why he did it. I never doubted his conviction or what he saw as his motivation. I have no problem taking him for his word before the act. What I do wonder though is that in the seven hours after he set himself on fire and was still alive, did he maybe have a change of heart and wish he didn’t do it. Yall confident he did not??

4. Comparing the rationality of his act to joining the military is asinine. There is personal upside to joining the military even though you risk your life. The military lifted both my grandfathers out of poverty and placed them in the middle class when there was no other opportunity for black men. Without endorsing anything the military does, you can see why countless people without opportunity I drawn to the military. The personal upside can be tremendous. You cn also change your mind if you don’t like it. With suicide there is no such upside or ability to change your mind.


I've got a lot of words on this because I feel strongly about it (...and I haven't been drinking for a while and got a gang of energy and clarity), had a young frat brother recently take his life and also listened to this story about a recent suicide cluster at a New England.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/11/podcasts/the-daily/mental-health-education.html



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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"