This is related to the thread on "Developing vocal rap skills..." (Lobby > Make The Music > topic #24908)

(1) Typically, rap/hiphop beats always have a kick and a snare. As in each bar typically starts with a kick and ends with a snare (or instruments the act as kick and snares). True or false?

(2.a) My main question is, for professional rapping, is it required that your syllables have to end on or before the snare? (like 99% of the time) (Note, that I say syllable as opposed to words) True or False? {I am most interested in the answer to this}

(2.b) If you do allow syllables to go over the snare, then sooner than later, you do have to end a syllable on or before the snare. True or false.

(3) If No. 2 is true, what are some SPECIFIC exercises that one can do to learn how to rap within that bar? When I say specific exercises, I mean that saying "just practice" is not helpful.


Thanks a lot.

PS: (My reply to this post would explore this topic a little further just so you guys can see where I am coming from; that way, we can have a constructive convo about this.)

Okay, this thread is not about how to come up with great lines or great metaphors or great punchlines or great rap melodies.

I will start by saying that this is a difficult topic to talk about. I mean, all (of the two) producers I have talked to, found it very difficult to explain this properly.

PS: If I say anything you disagree with, just add your two cents to correct me etc. But even better, give a specific reason why you disagree with it instead of giving a generic answer like "that's how life is."

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I just noticed, like in the last few weeks, that I don't really rap to the drums/percussions in beats. Apparently, I rap to other non-percussion instrument like piano or bass; in one particular beat, I was rhyming to the electric guitar. Which is impressive and all (lol). Like, you can tell which instrument I am rapping to cos when you turn off every other instrument except the one I am rhyming to, my shit would sound hot.

I couldn't see what a bad idea - NOT having the syllable end on or before the last snare of a bar was - until I had the producer take away every instrument except the kick and snare and I immediately saw how bad it was. (I mean, my shit sounded so good to me until the producer took those instruments away. I was sooo close to a grammy man! "I am $600 grand deep in this ... Don't tell me I don't deserve at least one grammy." by y'all-know-who Lol)


Seriously though, **I'm about to boil this down to a science/something technical** (while ignoring the artistic aspects as much as possible)::
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A voice is also a musical instrument so it has to go with the music. And in rap beats, the most important instruments are the kicks and snares. Hiphop beats are rhythmic by nature and kick and snares are the main instruments that give hiphop/r&b (and I think, dance) beats that rhythm.

So, (it seems to me that) the most basic rule to maintaining that rhythm is to rhyme within that bar: making sure syllables end on or before the snare. When you don't end on the snare, it seems that that is what most people tend to describe as "not flowing with the beat" or "not catching a beat" or "flowing too fast for the beat" or "flowing too slow for the beat." (I bet if I think about this hard enough, I can come up with an experiment to demonstrate this CLEARLY)

There are other ways to maintain the rhythm; but no matter how complex the rhythm-maintaining-scheme is, it still obeys that end-on-or-before the snare rule. I think that other ways to get more complex with it is to rhyme to (in addition to the drums that come in between the first kick and last snare in a bar) the other drums within the bar, or the bass within the bar etc.

Part of the reason I can't verify these thoughts of mine very well is cos I am just starting to pay much closer attention to the instruments of a song (particularly, the kick, snares and any other percussion instrument); and I am not very good at hearing or paying *continuous* attention to the kick and drums.

Plus on top of that, it's difficult to observe this properly on other artists' works cos some of them get really slick with it, that you can barely tell how on earth they are able to arrange it. Listen to Lauryn Hill's rap on "So High" remix.

Even Twista obeys this rule. Once, I concentrated hard enough, and I noticed it a lil bit in Slow Jamz; and I mean, he obeys it even within that stream of words that come out before he takes a noticeable breath.

And I guess that complex rhyme-within-a-bar schemes like Lauryn's makes it hard for me to know for a fact that 99% of MOST SYLLABLES HAVE TO END ON OR BEFORE THE SNARE.

And it's harder to observe this rap-within-a-bar rule especially if you are still training your ear to think of the words coming out of the artist's mouth as just a musical instrument (I pay a lot of attention to the meaning of the words, the metaphors etc; I am more of a lyricist).

It's easier to notice rappers obey the rap-within-a-bar rule in some other artists who use simpler flow schemes like 50 Cent, and harder for flyer artists like Lauryn Hill and Jay-Z. And in some beats, the kick and snares are not as obvious as a lot of the other instruments.

Now, it may seem as if the solution to this problem is as simple as saying something like "write fewer words" or "just listen to the beat and make it fit" or "rewrite the rhyme to fit the bar." Because, I don't think it is. I mean, it can't be the solution because lightly put, I have tried those and it doesn't seem to work. There's more to it. Like, some rappers are able to fit in more words per bar, others keep it simpler, others do even more interesting acrobats (uhh, lately, Lil' Wayne - anyone???)

I have been told to try freestyling. But aside from the fact that I don't know how to freestyle, I genuinely don't think that this helps. I feel that suggesting freestyling as a solution to learning how to rap-within-a-bar is same as learning to spit pre-writtens within a bar. Only, freestyling is harder cos you have to come up with words (that do or do not make sense) while paying attention to the kick and snare; and this is too much for my brain to handle.


Currently, I am trying to hum words or bunch of syllables and making sure to end on or before the snare. (if you are wondering what I mean by humming words, try humming to, say, Jay-Z's words in "Public Service Announcement"). I feel that with the rap-humming, I don't have to bother my brain about actually coming up with words. Then eventually, when I get used to stopping on or before the snare, I can start adding words to it (essentially, dividing and conquering). Then, of course, after I get it down well, I can start adding more complex rap-humming schemes.

I have only been trying the humming thing for less than 24 hours so I am not too sure if it works or not.

So, the main point of this post is, can y'all give me any more pointers as to what might help?

Thanks a lot lot lot.

.

Freestyling will help much more than you think. It is easier to catch and play with a beat when you're making up words in the moment than when you're reading off of paper. It's effects will carry over to how you write and how you perform your writtens. I was a doubter once too, but experience has taught me how useful freestyle is.

the difference between us is that i can freestyle and when i do
my flow is on point but as you mentioned, the lyrics aren't as captivating as my written pieces
freestyle lyrics become more entertaining and it all depends on what you want to achieve as a musician
do you want to move the crowd or do you want to stimulate the crowd?
to me it seems like you want to get them thinking
to look deeper within your composition and to actually realize that this cat is rhyming to the instruments
that there is more to this emcee than just a flow on beat with entertaining lyrics
however
how would that translate on stage?
unless you draw an avante garde crowd that is okay with smoking a joint and not really dancing or getting wild
than yeah, you'll do fine
but if you want to move the crowd you have to move with the drum

the trick is to find a balance of both
you want to get people thinking by using simpler tools in your tool box
for example
sometimes its best to put that long worded metaphor away for the same meaning in a shorter pun
there are sacrifices all emcees must make in my opinion
also, it takes days to perfect a song, if not weeks
mos def made a reference to this in one of his joints that slips my mind now
he said that he started on a rhyme and it took him something like two days to complete
write something
put on the beat
rhyme it out
listen to it
is it on beat? probably not all there
is there real energy in your voice?
is your delivery on point?
part of rhyming is knowing how to deliver
delivery and cadence plays a large role in flow imo and even though the words can be perfectly on beat if the delivery is not
it can still sound off
so you see after all the talk
it really comes down to practice and evolving with your material
hip hop is a box
you have to get inside it to really start rocking with it
the box is determined by the kick and snare
sadly that may be the truth
you can be crazy innovative with your lyrics
have the most important message in the world
but if you do it in the context of hip hop
you gotta get inside the structure, you can't over innovate
because if you do that it becoems spoken word, or something else all together

to help you, i will say this
keep doing your thing, keep writing what you are writing
and when it comes to record it, sometimes it helps to turn the beat down real low so you don't get lost in the instrumentation but stay focused on beat
pay real close attention to how you begin and end your sentences
and make small adjustments that will eventually evolve into a kick ass flow

hiphop as it is today is pretty much a system of complementary archetypes. for the most part it's formulaic and that's why it works.

ultimately, it's about the drums. as with most western music, the drummer has been the time keeper, and other rhythmic elements (bass, for instance) help develop the timing of a song, and allow the other instrumentalists (including the vocalist) to maintain time.

if you look at step sequencers on early beat machines like the tr-808, there's typically a layout split into 16ths in which events can occur. this represents what we call a bar, or a measure. of course, you can break it down even further, but for the sake of discussion (and to speak on what's physically possible) we'll keep it at 16ths.

those 16 beats per measure are what you should consider focusing on locking your syllabic rhythm into. actually, you could keep it a little more loose and keep it to 8 beats per bar, or 4 beats per bar, so you wont sound like a robot, but yeah. it's the responsibility of a rhythm-conscious MC to respect the timing conventions of hiphop and follow those guides.

the syllables in your lyrics should be considered as events that take place- loosely- on a grid of 4 to 16 beats per bar. for instance, you can count 1,2,3,4 evenly between each kick and snare on the average hiphop beat. play a song where an MC is keeping solid time, and do this exercise, and you will hear the MC's syllables falling very neatly in the vicinity of your count.

that's about all i got for you. don't follow pianos and other non percussive/rhythmic elements in a beat, man. the drums are your friend, stick with 'em.

also i don't think it's IMPERATIVE that you stay in the bar. but it'd be nice.

If you focus too much on ending syllables on the snare, you wil come off sounding robotic, unnatural and uncomfortable. However, if you're having trouble catching the beat in the first place, that's probably still a good starting place. Just be aware that once you get there, you will need to work towards sounding natural on the beat.

If every MC rhymed along with the kick and snare in the way you're talking about, rap would get boring very fast. You are correct in seeing the relationship between kick, snare, and the timing of words, but ending on the snare is just one of many possible relationships. The idea is that there needs to be SOME kind of relationship for things to sound correct.

Music is all about patterns. When you combine two patterns with compatible timing, a larger pattern will be formed. Your voice should form a larger pattern with the music. When you rhyme along with the guitar (or whatever else) you may be making a pattern with that instrument, which is fine, but it's not sounding good because there is no pattern between you and the drums. The WHOLE pattern needs to work. We tend to use the drum to guide us because as Aeon said, it usually controls the rhythm and timing of the song. If every element is in a pattern with the drums, they will be in a pattern with each other too. Rhyming with the non rhythm instruments can really improve your flow. It is not something you should try to avoid. You just have to make sure that when you do it you are still in a pattern with the drums.

So when I'm hearing your verse, I should be able to tell that there is a deliberate pattern between the lyrics and the music. Try messing around with some different patterns to get a sense of what I'm talking about. Try ending every line on the first kick of the beat. Try stressing the syllables on the off beats (the beat between the kick and the snare). experiment with other patterns. Once you start getting comfortable with that, you can try throwing multiple patterns into one verse. Many MCs shift from pattern to pattern in one verse. That is why with some of them you have a hard time hearing exactly how they are matching up with the kick/snare.

Like any musician, mc should use their pattern to play around within the pocket of the groove. basically you have your 4-count and you dont have to hit your flow on every kick and snare, make sure to punctuate according to the rhythm, but play with the patterns within that groove. Kinda like a bass player does

Overanalysing.

Music (esp. hip-hop) is based on innovation, not formulation.

>(1) Typically, rap/hiphop beats always have a kick and a
>snare. As in each bar typically starts with a kick and ends
>with a snare (or instruments the act as kick and snares). True
>or false?

True and false. The kick and snare part is true, but kicks don't have to start shit off (tho they usually do) and snares don't have to end the bar.

>(2.a) My main question is, for professional rapping, is it
>required that your syllables have to end on or before the
>snare? (like 99% of the time) (Note, that I say syllable as
>opposed to words) True or False? {I am most interested in the
>answer to this}

False. There are no rules. Some people very loosley refrence the beat at all (i.e. they might actually land on the snare once and again), some people stick to one rhythm no matter what for 8 bars then start going all over the place.

>(2.b) If you do allow syllables to go over the snare, then
>sooner than later, you do have to end a syllable on or before
>the snare. True or false.

False, again.

>(3) If No. 2 is true, what are some SPECIFIC exercises that
>one can do to learn how to rap within that bar? When I say
>specific exercises, I mean that saying "just practice" is not
>helpful.

I honestly don't think there's anything you can do besides listening to rap music to see where words stop and start. It begins w/ your writing, to me.

I think a guy like GURU is a great example. He's offbeat but so onbeat.

Dilla is rhyming off beat, but it still sounds ill, and not
awkward at all?

it's like his verse is another "rhythm"(wording?) within the song

???

>it's like his verse is another "rhythm"(wording?) within the
>song
>
>???
dilla's pattern may not fit the beat exactly but is still a pattern.
if you had the acapella to the song, you could re-blend with the instrumental in a way that was more "normal" but it would loose its swagger which comes from crazy swing of his rapping rythm.

it also helps to sound confident when you're rhyming "off beat".
detroit emcees got that style mastered aka rhyming in front of the snare.