WARNING: This post and this thread will have lots and lots of ******SPOILERS******.

I am having a lot of trouble figuring out and accepting Reloaded. Now the directing flaws aside (e.g. too much bullet time, etc.) I am trying to work out all the info given in this film.



SPOILERS NOW:

The whole original logic of the film (to put it really really simply)is that in the real world they are just normal people, but in the Matrix they can "hack" the system and be sort of Superheros, right? And then Neo stops the Sentinels in the real world with his "powers?" This means one of two things: 1) the worse explanation is that his powers as the One extend beyond the Matrix. that would make the whole franchise suck in my opinion. so let us give them the benefit of the doubt and move to 2) when they return to the "real world" they are actually still in the Matrix.

I know that most of the answers to all this mystery and potential plot twists lie in the damn scene with the Architect, but there is a lot of double-talk and counfounded speech to digest and work through. I feel I need to see it again to make an appropriate assessment of the film.


Basically I want to hear what y'all's theories are because I kinda feel disappointed in the movie overall. However, I also feel that there is potential for the film to redeem some of it's shortcomings if the story is good enough, and with all these twists and turns, I am no longer confident that I know exactly what that is anymore. And this gives me a little hope.


Post your theories here and let's pick this muhfuh apart.


Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

The Architect sounded like he was speaking Mandarin. They needed to slow that speech down to bullet time so you could catch all the shit he was saying

Yeah I believe you are correct in your assertion that Zion is in fact part of the Matrix. His conversation with the Architect let him finally understand that and that's why he was able to stop the sentinnels.

So...the two choices he had after the conversation with the Architect were to:

1. Have Zion destroyed (for the 6th time) and take a select number of inhabitants with him to rebuild it

OR

2. To save Trinity and then risk the entire human species being destroyed along with Zion? (this is where I got confused...help me please)

Another theory...that head counselor guy got a lot of screen time just to be another inconsequential character...do you think he's in on the whole Zion deception...or maybe he's the architect?

BTW...that freeway scene was the dopest shit I've ever seen in my life.

Just kidding...

>2. To save Trinity and then risk the entire human species
>being destroyed along with Zion? (this is where I got
>confused...help me please)

Zion is the last human civilization. With that gone, humans cease to exist. Now I'm gathering that Neo went to save Trinity because Neo saw that no matter if he saves Zion, it's going to go through the same thing over and over again. It's kinda like FFXI (or whatever that one was with Sin). They keep fighting Sin, but it keeps coming back.


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I believe that the Architect was implying that he would be willing to eradicate the human race, and lose them as a power source in order to incorporate Neo and upgrade the Matrix system to what I guess would be 7.0.
And I'm not sure whether Zion is part of another virtual universe created by the machines, or if they keep destroying Zion, allowing a few to survive to recreate the resistance (I'm guessing that implanted memories would have to play a part in this, but remember that even in the first movie, Morpheus stated that they were somewhat unsure what year it was, which could indicate that this war has lasted for far longer than a century. Given a lack of historical documents, or anyone old enough to remember life above ground, it must be relatively easy to manipulate people into the machines' version of history).

i got so lost at that speech. i thought my head was going explode. i'm pretty damn smart but that was too much. i have to think on it a few minutes to make a good theory.

Wow, I actually really liked the movie but now I'm confused as hell myself.

I thought Neo's powers had crossed over to the real world but your 2nd theory might be actually be better.

The real world is still The Matrix-HOT DAMN!

So the number of folks in the COunsil at Zion are exactly the number of folks The Architect said Neo could gather to build the new Zion after this one inevitably falls. Also we know that Oracle is the "mother" of the Matrix. now I am questioning the role of everyone in the film. If the Real World is just another Matrix or another layer of the Matrix then who is real and who are simply other programs? Morpheus? Trinity? Neo himself? This also means any one of them could betray the cause. And what is the deal with the new Agent Smith? Possibly an Agent from another layer of the matrix. he HAS to have some bigger role in this whole counfounded story.

I know there are things that I DIDN'T pick up on too.


Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

Dude we all just have to watch the third movie becuase we are all confused.

No will be able to explain it. But I still belive Neo is the One so that is why he will have to fight Agent Smith for all out supremacy. Agent Smith is like the guy who is trying to manipulate and control the Whole Matrix.

Imma stop now because I'm confusing myself!

>Dude we all just have to watch the third movie becuase we
>are all confused.
>
>No will be able to explain it. But I still belive Neo is the
>One so that is why he will have to fight Agent Smith for all
>out supremacy. Agent Smith is like the guy who is trying to
>manipulate and control the Whole Matrix.
>
>Imma stop now because I'm confusing myself!

ya the third movie will explain a lot i think... dunno if yall kno this, but after the credits theres a trailer for the third movie... real teaser, doesnt really reveal anything, but i will say that...


*** spoiler (in trailer)(***

agent smith seems to play a big role in the third movie....

after the 3rd movie, we will still all be confused?

We're gonna be Wachowski'd. It will be a new vocabulary word.

d

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The number on the council was the same number that could be chosen to rebuild Zion? Well hot damn. So that's why those on the council were waaay more concerned with Neo's progress than the tradtional military defense of the city AND they were all old as sh*t.

Did you see the trailer for Matrix 3 at then end of the movie? It was entirely focused on stopping Agent Smith. It implied that Agent Smith had somehow gained control over the Matrix. Someone in a voice over said "if you don't stop HIM then all is lost" or something like that.

Side comments:

* Man there were maaad black folks in Zion...and in powerful positions too. Zion was like the ATL or something.

* The Roy Jones and Cornell West cameos had me crackin up. Roy Jones actually had quite a few speaking parts...with his mumble mouth-ass.

>
>* Man there were maaad black folks in Zion...and in powerful
>positions too. Zion was like the ATL or something.

>* Man there were maaad black folks in Zion...and in powerful
>positions too. Zion was like the ATL or something.

Perhaps a reference to how black folks made up the first civilization? coming full circle type shit? just a thought.



Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

>The number on the council was the same number that could be
>chosen to rebuild Zion? Well hot damn. So that's why those
>on the council were waaay more concerned with Neo's progress
>than the tradtional military defense of the city AND they
>were all old as sh*t.
>
>Did you see the trailer for Matrix 3 at then end of the
>movie? It was entirely focused on stopping Agent Smith. It
>implied that Agent Smith had somehow gained control over the
>Matrix. Someone in a voice over said "if you don't stop HIM
>then all is lost" or something like that.
>
>Side comments:
>
>* Man there were maaad black folks in Zion...and in powerful
>positions too. Zion was like the ATL or something.
>
>* The Roy Jones and Cornell West cameos had me crackin up.
>Roy Jones actually had quite a few speaking parts...with his
>mumble mouth-ass.

ok, posted my post earlier before completely readin the thread.. whoops

>The number on the council was the same number that could be
>chosen to rebuild Zion? Well hot damn. So that's why those
>on the council were waaay more concerned with Neo's progress
>than the tradtional military defense of the city AND they
>were all old as sh*t.

DAMN, alright, I haven't read any of the posts past this one, so I'm not sure if this has been suggested already, but maybe the old white guy who lectures Neo in the beginning is actually the former ONE? Has that been brought up yet? Or, maybe, the ONE is somehow killed...I suppose it depends on the number of people in the council...if there's an additional male or female, that person is probably the OLD ONE. if not, the OLD ONE had to die somehow...which means NEO might have to die somehow in the third one so that life may continue. any thoughts?

the matrix program is reloaded so the people within zion would be reloaded err.. re-chosen by the one.

that is, of course, if zion is with in the matrix

Zion IS a part of the matrix. he says that the "choice" to free somebody's mind is now a part of the program, thanks to the Oracle.

He seems to have more and more powers inside the Matrix.
Actually, I think that he's actually now way too powerful
and has become godlike by now.

regardless of the storyline is that at the end of the 1st one, we are led to believe that Neo can reconstruct the Matrix as he sees fit - that makes him the One. Remember when he resurrects and then he bends reality and jumps into Agent Smith and blows him apart from the inside. Then he spits all this ish into the phone telling the machines that he is gonna tell the people and things are gonna change etc. then flies off dramaticallyt for the first time. well what happened to all that? I have the potential to do all this stuff and have all these powers all i have to do it come up with it, and then i spend the whole next movie doing kung fu and then using the two powers you have already seen: flying and stoppping bullets. wack.

If you get a chance watch the last minute of the first Matrix and listen to Neo's rant to the machines and then think about Reloaded. Seems like a lot of hype and setup and no payoff.

Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

i mean he just shrugs off agent smiths kung fu, fends him off with one arm looking completely disinterested in it. Now in the new one hes like he was before that.

m e l a n i s m

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Hence, *after brief fight with Smith* "Hmm. Upgrades"

Smith became a powerful virus

it wasnt smith. the trio of agents in reloaded are nameless...to my knowledge

but the one was supposed to be able to change the matrix in any way he wanted. Now he can fly and stop bullets (and nothing else) whoopdy doo. He could move faster than anything else at the end of the first one.

yeah but everythign at the end of the first movie was old ... the matrix adapated to him and upgraded

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Remeber no one knew whether there would be a Matrix 2 so the first one felt complete.

So basically, the machines helped the humans build and rebuild Zion, henceforth the technology and the ability to reenter The Matrix on their terms.

I think Agent Smith is taking over The Matrix and that is what we see in "Revolutions"

I think the Coucilman Neo spoke to was the last "One"

I think that the Council knew what was coming and that is why they wanted to focus their energy on Neo.

I haven't figured the purpose of The Matrix or the French guy.

m e l a n i s m

"You have to make the clitoris your best friend."
"What kind of friend is always hiding?"
--Luisa and Tenoch
From "Y Tu Mama Tambien"
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>I think the Coucilman Neo spoke to was the last "One"

Yes. I believe you are correct.

>I haven't figured the purpose of The Matrix or the French
>guy.

Not sure about the french dude's role outside of displaying the Oracles explanation of old programs that found a way to survive, but I would assume that the Matrix serves the purpose it was said to serve, only on a higher level, with perhaps more failsafes than we expected. i figured the Matrix is a multilayered construct with the first layer being the one we saw in the first movie which we know about, whose purpose is to appease the minds of the majority of the crop/population. Then the second layer, which is what we were led to believe is the "REal World. However the REal World is actually just another layer of the matrix for those that hack past the first wall (Neo, Morpheus, hackers, etc.), or in other words, those that do not accept the first matrix as reality.

Neo, being the exrta-special The One (vs. his failed predecessors) i would theorize is different because he will see past the second matrix (cuz he is the best hacker ever, i guess) and then he hacks this new layer of the Matrix thus being able to use his powers in the so-called "Real World."

Another Question: So is Neo's purpose to destroy the machines and deconstruct the matrix, or is his purpose to find a way for Machines and Humans to share the planet? Either way it would break "the cycle."



Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

>So basically, the machines helped the humans build and
>rebuild Zion, henceforth the technology and the ability to
>reenter The Matrix on their terms.
>
>I think Agent Smith is taking over The Matrix and that is
>what we see in "Revolutions"

yup. i agree. Neo wants to obtain freedom from the Matrix, while Smith wants take over the matrix. thus the battle royale that will be the climax of Revolutions.

p.s. Did you like it or not?


Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

aside form the first 45 minutes, I loved it

and as we talk through it, I feel better about it.

I think neo's purpose is much like the keymaker and the oracle. he has a function and it is to restart the cycle.

however, as the artchitect pointed out, he has love for/of another which the other "Ones" never had.

He had more to lose restarting the Matrix/Zion which is why he choose as he did.

I assume the other Ones chose to restart everything each time because they were detached from humanity.
m e l a n i s m

"You have to make the clitoris your best friend."
"What kind of friend is always hiding?"
--Luisa and Tenoch
From "Y Tu Mama Tambien"
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Or am I the only one anticipating a Trinity/Neo baby? Unless they've got Condoms in Zion, expect those two to have a child that's really The One.

teh whole resurection part made me want to vomit though

it seems to me the reason that neo's powers transfered have everything to do with his decomposition of agent smith at the end of the first movie. smith and neo were both fundamentally changed as a result, because they had absorbed parts of one another, become linked in some strange fashion, whatever. by absorbing part of a machine, neo gained the ability to translate some of his messiah powers into the real world, although at a terrible cost to his body. smith became able to exist in the real world because he had part of a real person in him.

the more important thing is, neo and, just as importantly, smith are wild cards THAT THE ARCHITECHT HAD NOT FORESEEN, that exist outside the bounds of his perfect logic, that his logic cannot account for. Get ready for that to be the theme of Revolutions--how these two wild cards bring down the Matrix (and not by teaming up--that'd be way too easy).

I disagree about the wildcard aspect

Neo isnot a wildcard so to speak because they anticipated him what they did not anticipate was his love (and attachment). the Ones that preceded him chose to restart Zion and the Matrix and continue the cycle but Neo went back for Trinity because he had an attachment that the others did not.

I think Agent Smith is a wildcard however in that he is taking over the Matrix by replicating himself over and over again.

m e l a n i s m

"You have to make the clitoris your best friend."
"What kind of friend is always hiding?"
--Luisa and Tenoch
From "Y Tu Mama Tambien"
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Bshelly, you may be right about the transferance of Neo's powers to the real World. But if you are, I will probably end up hating the whole trilogy. Because the fundamental idea of the trilogy is that we don't have powers in the real world, but in the Matrix we do because we can hack the system, in a sense. That is the idea that the whole movie is based on. All these computer hackers are seeing past the facade of their fabricated world. So the ONLY way I can see how I can accept Neo destrying those Sentinals in the Real World is if the Real World is just another layer of the Matrix that no one anticipated. Also there are too many references in The Architect's scene that ellude to this theory.


Back from the dead.

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Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

How do you really know what the whole idea of the movie is based on unless you are one of The Wachowski Brothers? Sometimes I think folk over-analyze movies too much. Everything doesn't have to be 100% logical thats why it's science fiction not science fact.

you gonna add something to the discussion?

Where in response #22 does he say it is just his opinion? He states his opinion as if it was fact.

Here's my theory: The Architect and, hence, the machine world accounted for everything that happened to Neo right up until he made the choice to go after Trinity instead of accept the Architect's stated terms for the survival of humanity. The machines can't conceive of or predict that Neo would make the choice he makes--their strictly utilitarian logic leaves no room for Neo's making a decision that places the entire species at risk for the sake of one woman who (they feel) is going to die anyway. They can't factor love into their equations, in other words.

So, by making that decision, Neo has become something their logic can't predict. For the first time, including the first five Chosen Ones, a human has done something outside of the grand design of the Matrix. That calls off every plan the machines made, throws a wrench in every scheme they have. Put it this way: if Neo doesn't now represent a new, fundamental challenge to their order, something unprecedented and frightening, why are they willing to destroy the entire human race and "accept a lower level of existence" for themselves? Neo's a wild card, something they couldn't predict or control, just like Smith.

As for his real world powers, I kind of hope it's not the "anothe level of the Matrix" story. I trust the brothers to come up with a good reason why Neo was able to do what he did without resorting to the "world pulled over the world pulled over the world pulled over your eyes" thing. I think the bond between Smith and Neo is obviously key to everything that happened in Revolutions, so I have to believe that the link between the two of them, having been so developped, matters in a way that is fundamental to the resolution of the story.

the oracle told neo he had already made the choice not to rebuild, he had to just find out why

Note: I was trying to piece together some things so I checked out a few fansites. These kids are THOROUGH!!!!


Dialogue between Neo and the Oracle
*Neo walks towards the Oracle. She is sitting on a bench in a park, feeding birds*

The Oracle - Well, come on. I ain’t gonna bite you. Come around here, and let me have a look at you. My goodness, look at you! You turned out alright, didn’t you? How do you feel?

Neo - I, uhh...

The Oracle - I know you’re not sleeping. We’ll get to that. Why don’t you come and have a sit this time?

Neo - Maybe I’ll stand.

The Oracle - Well, suit your self.

*Neo hesitates at first, but then sits down on the bench*

Neo - I felt like sitting.

The Oracle - I know. So, let’s get the obvious stuff out of the way.

Neo - You’re not human, are you?

The Oracle - Well it’s tough to get any more obvious than that.

Neo - If I had to guess, I’d say you’re a program from the machine world.

*Neo looks over to Seraph*

Neo - So is he.

The Oracle - So far, so good.

Neo - But if that’s true, that can mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control.

The Oracle - Keep going.

Neo - I suppose the most obvious question is: how can I trust you?

The Oracle - Bingo! It is a pickle, no doubt about it. The bad news is that there’s no way you can really know if I’m here to help you or not. So, it’s really up to you. You just have to make up your own damn mind to either accept what I’m going to tell you, or reject it.

*The Oracle reaches into her bag and pulls out a red candy*

The Oracle - Candy?

Neo - You already know if I’m going to take it.

The Oracle - I wouldn’t be much of an oracle if I didn’t.

Neo - But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

The Oracle -Because you didn’t come here to make a choice, you’ve already made it. You’re here to try to understand why you made it.

*Neo takes the candy*

The Oracle - I thought you would have figured that out by now.

Neo - Why are you here?

The Oracle - Same reason. I love candy. *the Oracle eats one of the red candies*

Neo - But why help us?

The Oracle -We’re all here to do what we’re all here to do. I’m interested in one thing, Neo: the future. And believe me, I know, the only way to get there is together.

Neo - Are there other programs like you?

The Oracle - Oh, well, not like me. But... look, see those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees, and the wind, the sunrise, and sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing there job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You’d never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time.

Neo - I’ve never heard of them.

The Oracle - Oh, of course you have. Every time you’ve heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you’ve ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens, is the system assimilating some program that’s doing something they’re not supposed to be doing.

Neo - Programs hacking programs? Why?

The Oracle - They have there reasons, but usually a program choose exile when it faces deletion.

Neo - Why would a program be deleted?

The Oracle - Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it. It happens all the time, and when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to the source.

Neo - The machine mainframe?

The Oracle - Yes, where you must go, where the path of the one ends. You’ve seen it, in your dreams. Haven’t you? The door made of light?

*Neo nods*

The Oracle - What happens when you go through the door?

Neo - I see Trinity, and something happens, something bad. She starts to fall, and then I wake up.

The Oracle - Do you see her die?

Neo - No.

The Oracle - You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time.

Neo - Then why can’t I see what happens to her?

The Oracle - We can never see past the choices we don’t understand.

Neo - Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?

The Oracle - No. You’ve already made the choice, now you have to understand it.

*Neo shakes his head*

Neo - No, I can’t do that. I won’t.

The Oracle - You have to.

Neo - Why?

The Oracle - Because you’re the one.

Neo - What if I can’t? What happens if I fail?

The Oracle - Then Zion will fall.

*Seraph places his hand on The Oracles shoulder. The Oracle and Seraph nod to each other.*

The Oracle - Our time is up. Listen to me Neo, you can save Zion if you reach the source, but to do that you will need the Keymaker.

Neo - The Keymaker?

The Oracle - Yes, he disappeared sometime ago. We did not know what happened to him until now. He’s being held prisoner by a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us. He is called the Merovingian, and he will not let him go willingly.

Neo - What does he want?

The Oracle - What do all men with power want? More power.

*The Oracle hands Neo a piece of paper*

The Oracle - Be there, at that exact time, and you will have a chance.

Seraph - We must go.

The Oracle - It seems like every time we meet, I’ve got nothing but bad news. I’m sorry about that, I surely am. But for what it’s worth, you’ve made a believer out of me.

*The Oracle pats Neo’s arm*

The Oracle - Good luck kiddo.

*Seraph takes the Oracle away*

Dialogue between Neo and the Architect

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I’ve been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven’t answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “Others? What others? How many? Answer me!”*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “Five versions? Three? I’ve been lied too. This is bull****.*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly’s systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “You can‘t control me! **** you! I’m going to kill you! You can‘t make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “Bull****!”*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you’re going to do, don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.

The Architect - We won’t.

When the architect discusses the mother of the matrix Neo thinks it is the Oracle but the architects response is "please" as if to say to Neo not even close. So if it's not the Oracle then who?

like the mere mention of her name brings on bad thoughts. the oracle is the one he was talkin' about. she is in exile too.

he might have been sayin please like "please, let me finish"

that much is very clear.

Or perhaps he was saying she hardly is an "oracle" after Neo called her that.

He said 'please.' in a scoff sort of way. like 'nigga please'.. she's not the mother

they given her, but not her role.

the Oracle is the mother but the name ORacle is ridiculous to the Architect

nah the way i heard it, he said "please" like "nigga please" as if not say "not even a little" or something of that nature. i don't think she's the mother of the matrix...

"nigga please"...he definitely said it like that. plus since shes a program too, i think her role is smaller than we think.



Von Pea - "
"come on down" w/ Elucid and "we just..." w/ spec boogie and bennie guinness

Von Pea & Co. - "The Beatmaker" the album
coming in June (pushed back for quality control)


(updated May 1st)

plus = Tanya Morgan.

do you have a transcript of the convo with the frenchman?

i locked this thread given that there was already a matrix 2 post

but perhaps this is an elegant solution to the spoiler problem

comments/complaints?

post away or inbox me

shock

lol

t'was illegal's whining that made me reconsider

happy now?

don't get mad at me...

Just playin'. But that was my intention. Folks were gettin pissed about Spoilers in the other Matrix thread, I wanted to get into discussions about folk's theories on what the "truth" of the film was.

Thanks for not locking it, shock. Thanks for the support illegal. I appreciate it.

Seriously though... what did you think about the flick?

Peace.


Back from the dead.

§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§¤¤¤¤§

Disgust is an appropriate reaction to most situations. ~Jenney Holzer

Every battle is a chance to see another cat lose to me/I don't write battle raps. I write eulogies. ~Blueprint

Every dog has his day, and even more so in rhymin'/So I decided that I'd never play the fire hydrant. ~Blueprint

this weekend

that is, if i finish this damn essay

if neo is going against the plan of the higher order of matrix folks (architect, oracle, etc) why was he given a choice between which door to make a deal through?

im pretty sure he's still just following whatever plan they have.

he is the 0.1% that didnt accept the program. he is the anomoly. but its his job to go back and save zion, go to the source and repopulate zion.

the machines dont want to destroy zion completely, they need humans.

also explains why everybody in zion was black and brown


SHMEA?!

just let your soooooulglooooooow

I'm believing was Smith, ready to mix his blood or something
with Neo's...in order to absorb neos capabilities and whatnot.

Which is why he was the only one left.


He behind it.



=)

but that WAS smith. i personally think the cutting was just a fascination with him actually being in a human body, since the agents don't bleed. it seems that way from the look on his face when he was doing it.

But then he wiped the cut away. Least thats what it looked like.

Agent Smith HATES humans and made that clear in the first movie, so being in a human body, hating it and marring it just reiterated his hate. He hid the cuts, the knife and intended to kill Neo but I think his plan was bigger.

>
>
>I'm believing was Smith, ready to mix his blood or something
>with Neo's...in order to absorb neos capabilities and
>whatnot.
>
>Which is why he was the only one left.
>
>
>He behind it.
>
>
>
>=)

he did it in order to get his blood on Neo's hand. this is the same hand Neo holds up at the end when he stops the sentinels from killing him and his crewmates and thus collapses and falls into a coma. I think that "blood" was the real reason those sentinels fell, not b/c neo's powers in the Matrix someone carryover into the real world.

going for da loot again....

so, i don't think it's *just* about the money.

i learned this on charlie rose via an interview with the cast.

1) I enjoyed the dance scene. Zion is supposed to be the last human city, the last hope. What's more human than dancing and music? Once the crew returns to Zion, we're introduced to their humanity. Morpheus' ex-girl left him for butt-chin, Link's wife is all upset over him not being around, Neo and Trinity just wanna fuck, and there's an annoying guy running around (which isn't explained yet?). So the dancing/music/sex scense is merely a collage of humanity - it did go a bit too long, but I understand its placement and appreciate it.

2) If this was merely the 6th cycle, then would not there have already been 5 Agent Smiths that developed the multiplicity power? And wouldnt they already be running around? Being an Agent, wouldn't Smith know that would happen to him? Or does Everything reset after each cycle?

3. If that happened(the complete reset), then wouldn't the Oracle be a mere program(performing the same task over and over, like the key master) and not the "mother of the matrix?" And since the Oracle predicted that Trinity would love Neo - and none of the previous "Ones" felt the love...then who decided that Neo and Trinity would love, and thus "end" the cycle?

4. Why did "Smith/Bane?" cut his hand and then just simply tell Neo "oh...good luck." If it is Smith that is Bane, then wouldn't that be effing with the cycle, since he survived the Zion attack? And if Smith is Bane, and can change BACK to the person he took over, then why can he bleed and be human? If Smith could take over a human, but still maintained human attributes, then Neo would have easily killed some of those Smith clones. And why would Bane have survived the attack, if he was still just human -- this part is confusing the more I think about it.

5. The race representations. Every Agent, the French Guy and The Architect are white guys. Every program that helps the humans is a minority: Oracle, her guardian and the Key Master. Zion is filled with minorities: Lock is the commander, the head of the Council was a woman...

The only "bad guy" that wasn't white was the one Asian dude that had the shield and sword at the restaurant.

6. What was the point of Cypher in the original movie, if the Machines could just burrow to Zion and destroy it with ease? Why bother? It would seem like they could have just as easily kidnapped Morpheus without Cypher, thus leading to Neo's realization that he is the one?

That's it for now, I'm sure I'll be back -- I'm a huge Matrix fan, and I LOVED this movie. I plan on seeing it again in a few days, hopefully it'll clear some things up.

>
>4. Why did "Smith/Bane?" cut his hand and then just simply
>tell Neo "oh...good luck." If it is Smith that is Bane, then
>wouldn't that be effing with the cycle, since he survived
>the Zion attack? And if Smith is Bane, and can change BACK
>to the person he took over, then why can he bleed and be
>human? If Smith could take over a human, but still
>maintained human attributes, then Neo would have easily
>killed some of those Smith clones. And why would Bane have
>survived the attack, if he was still just human -- this part
>is confusing the more I think about it.


he was gonna try and kill neo, by stabbin' him in his back, but the boy called neo and eliminated the element of surprise. he was cuttin' his hand to experience the new human sensation that he previously never experienced.

they are still in hte matrix, even in zion, which is another level of the matrix. that's why neo and smith still had certain powers.

These Theories came out of a lenthy discussion had at the movie conclusion with friends who also attended the movie with me.
If you agree/disagree with my rantings thats fine, all these are most personal view of what the movie was about.


My Matrix Reloaded Theories
___________________________


Neo- Is a Jesus like character, in reloaded he has more advance power due to what I believe is the result of both Neo and Agent Smith ramming through each others bodies at the end of the first Matrix. I figure that they most have uploaded and downloaded new abilities from each other, which seems to have resulted in a shared connection with each other (They can sense each others presence). At a key part at the end of the film Neo is able to minipulate the sentinels from outside the Matrix; this seems to be an upgraded skill.


Morpheus-Morpheus parallels John the Baptist in proclaiming that Neo is "The One", just like John the Baptist predicts that Jesus, the Son of God, will come and take the sin of the world.
This piece is taken from an article that can be found here http://personal.centenary.edu/~rgroenlu/matrix.htm.

John the Baptist, the last of the prophets and the forerunner of our Lord, was a man of the desert. The son of a priestly line, born of aged parents as if by a miracle, brought up as a Nazareth, that is, dedicated from birth to God's service with lifelong obligations never to shave, take wine, or indulge in human pleasures. He lived in the wilderness, (Qumran) a rugged and magnetic figure, clothed in the skin of a camel, living on locusts and wild honey.

He is the most startling figure in the Gospel narrative, a man of mystery, not as other men, bronzed by the desert sun, with piercing words of ominous malediction, uncompromising and aggressive. No greater contrast can be imagined than the appearance by the river of this prophet of fire and the figure of Jesus as 'the Lamb of God.'

Crowds followed him, held by his hypnotic power and rugged eloquence and lashed by his bitter invective. "You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth fruits meet for repentance. The axe is laid to the rotten trees." The wheat is being threshed and the stubble burnt in the empty fields. It was the voice of the old dispensation, the last echo of Moses and Elijah, the final challenge of the fire and thunder of the God of the ancient Jews.

But John also prepared the way for Jesus, and with all his fierceness exercised a vital and realistic ministry. With it went a surprising humility and tenderness, for he recognized his own limitations and that he was but a forerunner and a road-builder; and when the time came, he graciously made way for our Lord. He shrank even from the thought of baptizing Him, and spoke of Him with wonder and devotion. I am not the Christ, he said, I am but a voice. "He that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear."

This information came from http://www.dreamwater.org/walknmud1/jesusdiscovered.html


In the Matrix RL Morpheus's undying faith in Neo as "The One" is questioned by many in Zion.



Agent Smith- Because of the exchange of body contact with Neo, Agent Smith too incurred an upgrade. Smith's duplication to me parallels the actions of a computer virus that is able to infect and replicate its self within Programs. I believe that it was this new found power that got him release from the Matrix Agency; he had become a hazard to the system. This scenario parallels a computer program that is infected with an unwanted virus and tries to expel the damaging process within it with the help of an anti-virus program (Which could be the unaffected Agents).


The Oracle- "The all knowing", To me "The Oracle" represents a database program where mounds and mounds of Information are stored. I believe that is her function in the Matrix, to provide information relating to problems; with all the choices made available by The Oracle's database it is still up to you to choose your own destiny regarding the many choices given. Neo asked questions "The Oracle" answered to the best of her "program's" capabilities.


Seraph- His role is to at as a Security program to protect "The Oracle" from malicious programs/Viruses as displayed by his fighting (Analyzing) Neo before entering to see "The Oracle".


The Keymaker- His role is to generate Keys (passwords) for entry in to "Back Door" areas of the Matrix.

The Twins- Are the Aberrations of old programs in the Matrix

The Architect- Is the creator of "The Matrix" (Kind of like God)

The Source- Is like a program's Source Code, with it you can view how the program works and make alterations to the code and change the overall functions and abilities of the program.


The Title, Matrix: Reloaded- At the end of Matrix Reloaded Neo is given two choices by “The Architect” and Zion gets destroyed and must be rebuilt. To me this is like when a computer program completely crashes and must be “Reloaded” and settings must be enter from scratch.


Again just a few of my theories of the film :)

there are no unattractive people in Zion. What a place.

Of course they were all hot. They were bred that way. The Architect gave the previous Neos the chance to choose 16 women and 7 men to start the new society. Go through 6 generations of breeding the top 16 hottest chicks in the species ... you do the math.
________
my bills thru the roof, can't do numbers like the roots

sounds like polygyny too...... (1 to 2 ratio.....)

what you think Mr. Chromosome?

It's in one of those short films. His orgin is explained in one of the 8 short films that came out a few months ago. All the short films will be available on a dvd in two weeks.

What do you guys think about this dialogue, from the very beginning of the first Matrix, with respect to the things that happened in Reloaded, the role of Trinity, Morpheus, etc.?


(Cellular)
Cypher: Yeah.

Trinity: Is everything in place?

Cypher: You weren't supposed to relieve me.

Trinity: I know, but I felt like taking your shift.

Cypher: You like him, don't you? You like watching him.

Trinity: Don't be ridiculous.

Cypher: We're going to kill him, do you understand that?

Trinity: Morpheus believes he is The One.

Cypher: Do you?

Trinity: It doesn't matter what I believe.

Cypher: You don't, do you?

Trinity: Did you hear that?

Cypher: Hear what?

Trinity: Are you sure this line is clean?

Cypher: Yeah, 'course I'm sure.

Trinity: I better go.


Why would Cypher, pre-betrayal, tell Trinity that we are going to kill him ? Why would Trinity take this statement so calmly? Did Cypher just mean that unplugging Thomas/Neo when he's so old would kill him, or was he actually talking about giving Neo an old-fashioned? Forgive me if this is old news or irrelevant...

how do we know that the number of people, 23, to be selected from the matrix to rebuild Zion matches the number of people on the Zion Council. i think it's a compelling theory, but is there proof? did someone count? was it stated in the flick? maybe i just missed it.

Why would Cypher, pre-betrayal, tell Trinity that we are going to kill him ? <<I take it to mean we will have to kill him before the agents get him or the process of freeing himwas going to kill him>>

Why would Trinity take this statement so calmly? <<She is a soilder in a war. You become jaded when fighting a war. She has no emotional attachment to Neo at this point.>>

Did Cypher just mean that unplugging Thomas/Neo when he's so old would kill him <<Age has nothing to do with being freed from the matrix. It 's rather your mind and body can handle it.>>

or was he actually talking about giving Neo an old-fashioned? <<a what?>>

maybe overanalyzing, but age IS a factor. Morpheus says so to Neo in the first movie:

Morpheus: "No. But if you could, would you really want to? I feel I owe you an apology. We have a rule. We never free a mind once it's reached a certain age. It's dangerous, the mind has trouble letting go. I've seen it before and I'm sorry. I did what I did because...I had to."

> or was he actually talking about giving Neo an
>old-fashioned? <<a what?>>

an old fashioned refers to an old-fasioned beat down... sorry for being obscure

Isn't the Oracle and I wonder who she is.

>So
>the dancing/music/sex scense is merely a collage of humanity
>- it did go a bit too long, but I understand its placement
>and appreciate it.

Ditto.

>2) If this was merely the 6th cycle, then would not there
>have already been 5 Agent Smiths that developed the
>multiplicity power? And wouldnt they already be running
>around? Being an Agent, wouldn't Smith know that would
>happen to him? Or does Everything reset after each cycle?

I think the latter.

>3. If that happened(the complete reset), then wouldn't the
>Oracle be a mere program(performing the same task over and
>over, like the key master) and not the "mother of the
>matrix?" And since the Oracle predicted that Trinity would
>love Neo - and none of the previous "Ones" felt the
>love...then who decided that Neo and Trinity would love, and
>thus "end" the cycle?

Choice. The purpose was there with every generation but choice is what the machines could not bank on. Thus, they reset the program and let the other Neos choose to see what would happen. This latest generation of Neo chose love and transcendence.

>4. Why did "Smith/Bane?" cut his hand and then just simply
>tell Neo "oh...good luck."

Agent Smith hates humans, he hates their smell and so on so I think the cutting was like defacing what he hates. Also, I think planned to kill but then decided to bide his time and do something bigger.

>5. The race representations. Every Agent, the French Guy and
>The Architect are white guys. Every program that helps the
>humans is a minority: Oracle, her guardian and the Key
>Master. Zion is filled with minorities: Lock is the
>commander, the head of the Council was a woman...
>
>The only "bad guy" that wasn't white was the one Asian dude
>that had the shield and sword at the restaurant.

Who created this postmodern world that destroys everything human? What oppressed group still has some kind of moral authority? The race/gender issue is purposeful and telling.

>6. What was the point of Cypher in the original movie, if
>the Machines could just burrow to Zion and destroy it with
>ease? Why bother? It would seem like they could have just as
>easily kidnapped Morpheus without Cypher, thus leading to
>Neo's realization that he is the one?

From the scene with The Architect I think all the Neos was a experiment to see if they could predict "choice".

>>So
>>the dancing/music/sex scense is merely a collage of humanity
>>- it did go a bit too long, but I understand its placement
>>and appreciate it.
>
>Ditto.

Finally, someone agrees with me!
>
>>2) If this was merely the 6th cycle, then would not there
>>have already been 5 Agent Smiths that developed the
>>multiplicity power? And wouldnt they already be running
>>around? Being an Agent, wouldn't Smith know that would
>>happen to him? Or does Everything reset after each cycle?
>
>I think the latter.

so who's in charge? Just the Arcitect? I always assumed the Agents would be in on it, or was the destruction/change of Smith another "radical" that they would be unable to predict or stop, because of choice? For isntance, perhaps the first five Neos just flew away or something. Then - wouldn't the Architect have known it happened, and thus - not given Neo the choice to save Trinity, and just let everything reset because Smith would pose such a danger as a free-roaming virus?



>>4. Why did "Smith/Bane?" cut his hand and then just simply
>>tell Neo "oh...good luck."

>Agent Smith hates humans, he hates their smell and so on so
>I think the cutting was like defacing what he hates. Also,
>I think planned to kill but then decided to bide his time
>and do something bigger.

But, if Smith can retain the attributes of humans, and thus was able to be drawn into the "real world," wouldn't he be capable of dying? I again, don't understand how an Agent can bleed/be human and Not be mortal. And, since Zion is likely part of the Matrix, he would just still be capable of his Agentpowers inside of the real world/Zion.



>>5. The race representations. Every Agent, the French Guy and
>>The Architect are white guys. Every program that helps the
>>humans is a minority: Oracle, her guardian and the Key
>>Master. Zion is filled with minorities: Lock is the
>>commander, the head of the Council was a woman...
>>
>>The only "bad guy" that wasn't white was the one Asian dude
>>that had the shield and sword at the restaurant.
>
>Who created this postmodern world that destroys everything
>human? What oppressed group still has some kind of moral
>authority? The race/gender issue is purposeful and telling.

Very telling. And I like it.

>so who's in charge? Just the Arcitect?

The agents are just extensions of the "mother", programs that take over when necessary to maintain the status quo.

>not given Neo
>the choice to save Trinity, and just let everything reset
>because Smith would pose such a danger as a free-roaming
>virus?

Artificial intelligence cannot control or predict choice. There is no real logic in human emotion. Agent Smith, as a virus, can be scnned and cleaned up/removed but not the emotional aspect of humanity and that's what I think that whole monologue in that room was about. You can only control someone if you can predict their actions.

>But, if Smith can retain the attributes of humans, and thus
>was able to be drawn into the "real world," wouldn't he be
>capable of dying? I again, don't understand how an Agent can
>bleed/be human and Not be mortal. And, since Zion is likely
>part of the Matrix, he would just still be capable of his
>Agentpowers inside of the real world/Zion.

In Reloaded, Agent Smith did say that something happened when Neo went into him, he changed. His abilities evolved and perhaps thats what allows him to appear human. I agree that the bleeding is unexplainable but I think I know why he cut himself.

when he got his "reading" by the Oracle, at first he wasn't the one, then if that was true, how did he become The One?

she told him what he NEEDED to hear. he didnt believe he was the one, so he didnt feel he should let morpheus die for him. but when he went in to get morpheus, is when he realized he WAS the one...

she said he was waiting for something. he asked her what and she said "i don't know, maybe another life"

he gets shot, dies and comes back...as the One

what i took from that line was for another reloading of the matrix.

this is why i believe the oracle exists outside the matrix

She never said he wasn't the one. He said i'm not the one am I? She said somnthing like I'm sorry kid but you don't have it in you. So she never said yes or no. But the other person said, she said what he needed to hear to save Morpheus.

how is that or how did that become possible? they can't bring guns in and out, so how did they get that key piece thingy in and out? the message from the oracle thingy.

another clue to that the whole thing is still the matrix, even in "real" life.

No, I don't think they trasmitted the physical object into the "zion world" I think by carry the object in his pocket, it allowed them to download the information/data from their system. After downloading it they transferred data on to an object very similar to the one in the matrix world.

out of? I don't think they got that much tech on them ships to do all of that.

but that's goin' under the assumption that zion is the "real" world, when it's just another level of the matrix.

Well i said "zion world" to indicate it may not be the real world.

<<but how would they know what to fashion the object>>

What? They have hard drives and media storage. How do you think they had training sessions in the first movie? Remember everything in the matrix is just a program made of data. It's not that hard to make media storage devices. Seems like everybody out of the matrix is very techy.

Star Trek, The Fly, etc. The Matrix is no different.

they can bring things in
hence the clothes and the guns

No they can't teleport physical objects. The Clothes and guns are just programs. Everything in the matrix is a program. It's all just codes.

I figure ive got a grasp on alot of it, however the few issues that still bother me after the second viewing are...

1)Where in the movie did they link the council member's to the chosen 23 that the architect mentioned? In the movie, there's 12 member's of the council shown seated and I didn't notice them mentioning the fact of an actual number of council members.

2)Zion. Real or not? Im open to the possibility its another layer in the matrix, however, with all the scenes of the fields of humans, freeing neo etc.

>I figure ive got a grasp on alot of it, however the few
>issues that still bother me after the second viewing are...
>
>1)Where in the movie did they link the council member's to
>the chosen 23 that the architect mentioned? In the movie,
>there's 12 member's of the council shown seated and I didn't
>notice them mentioning the fact of an actual number of
>council members.
>
>2)Zion. Real or not? Im open to the possibility its
>another layer in the matrix, however, with all the scenes of
>the fields of humans, freeing neo etc.

I wonder the same thing. Can any one clear up this chosen 23/architect connection?

Zion, I think, is either fully a part of the Matrix, or is at least partly governed by it.

This may be minor but I want to know: is the women in the red dress from the first movie (the one that Mouse created for the agent training program) the same one who eats the chocolate cake ordered/programmed by the Merogivnian(sp?)? if so, how could that be?

they had some similarities(the 1940's hairstyle/dress/haircut). But face wise they were different.

Its sort of requires the suspension of belief

but if a virus like smith can effect someone's conscious on the real world

you have to believe that neo is so connected to the matrix that he can effect machines in the real world just the same maybe that is why he is truly the "one"

SO smith being an anomaly a virus he is the only real threat to everything because he is an errant program that duplicates so it cant be stopped except by the one who is in effect an anomaly

kinda cool how humans and computer mimic each other

I really liked everything happening on two levels like when you watch them talk they aren't just talking they are programs running scripts in that aspect I think the W brother deliver a great film I was not disappointed at all I'm going to see it again

>SPOILERS NOW:
>
>The whole original logic of the film (to put it really
>really simply)is that in the real world they are just normal
>people, but in the Matrix they can "hack" the system and be
>sort of Superheros, right?

I don't think so. I think the movies begs to explore what we perceive or project. It also is a continuation of what Blade Runner explored. These characters (sci-fi) are more real but often confused as to what world they are in, and how they should act with respect to it. If anything, The Matrix explores postmodernity. Who was I? Forgotten, bewildered and now unpredictable.

In Blade Runner, the replicants are totally authentic reproductions. Roy Batty from Blade Runner is Agent Smith, not human, coveting humans, yet, hating them and wanting power over them. Their hatred of their existence and need for control is their downfall. Man, without Phillip K. Dick and Ridley Scott there would be no The Matrix!

>And then Neo stops the Sentinels
>in the real world with his "powers?"

The merging of worlds and the end of an elaborate illusion perhaps?

The idea of postmodernity is that it is unreal, fleeting, the result of the modern world gone awry. Everything is a layer down from or above everything else. This is a world we create, from all the things we created and forgot in the past. Nothing is connected and this new world is nothing but a reflection of all those images and creations, all the cycles or generations.

I totally got the scene in that room. My sister (ADHD) says she was distracted during those scenes when she knew it was deep but her mind just would not go there. I got it and realized that the machines had summed it up that "choice" was the human flaw that they could not control and Neo was the latest reminder, growing strong with every cycle. Seemed like the machines were just giving up.

the whole ressurection scene was beyond cheesy
it would have made more sense if she had died

Because Neo performed CPR on her by massaging her heart.

How many people are in Zion?

If 23 are designated to repopulate Zion, then how is it possible that the council is the 23 picked by the last 'the one'?

they mentioned that somewhere in the movie.

they free people from the Matrix - Morpheus, Neo and Trinity were all born in the Matrix, not Zion.

i remember reading an article stating that Joe Pantoliano's character would be making another appearance in either Reloaded or Revolutions, but not coming back to life or anything...just appearing in a different way or sumthin like that...

as for my Matrix experience, i came out of the flick feelin a little unfulfilled, like i missed somethin...but after reading through these posts im startin to see a boatload of shit that just plain went over my head. i *really* wanted to analyse the Architect's speech, cos i think that portion of the movie deserves some over-analysis (thanks for the transcript)...im generally inclined to believe the multiple-layer theory, otherwise how can u explain Neo's Matrix-esque attributes in the supposed "real world"? tho i do have one question..

..why did Neo slip into a coma after using his powers on the Sentinels?

also another interesting sumthing i noticed, when Smith is in human form and is cutting himself gettin ready to stab Neo, he cuts himself in a couple of straight lines down his hands. cut to nearing the end of the movie when one of the ship's is destroyed by a Sentinel bomb, when the crew member realises they're gonna be hit and runs thru the ship yelling "incoming! incoming!", and accidentally falls, killing the pilot of the ship b4 the Sentinels could, when his blood hits the screen, it flows down in a few straight lines, like dude cutting his hand. this might also allude to the fact that they're actually still in the Matrix construct.

that said, who can be sure exactly WHAT happened that lead to the creation of the Matrix, and what's exactly outside in the real world? i've seen the Animatrix explanation ("the first renaissance" piece) and it seemed like a logical series of events...i dunno. it just seems that if indeed there is a world within a world within the REAL world...how can u be sure of anything?

i thought it was pretty nice to see Morpehus' reasoning and zeal be brought down by the one person he has absolure faith in. it'll be interesting to see where he goes from here in terms of his beliefs...in many ways he seems blinded by his absolute faith in Neo, so...yeh...all interesting...

also wonder what part Zee will play in all of this? she was sposed to play a bigger part in the third movie...

V.

i was n't sure.

nope, she's alive. it was her ship that arrived right after neo stopped th squidies and passed out wasn't it?

*****************************

Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
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you should be replying to his post instead of mine...

it was the hammer that arrived after the neb was destroyed.

nirobe's(sp) ship is the logos

that agent smith carrier was said to be the only survivor, but was it just from the ships destroyed? because dude from oz wasnt acting like his girl was just killed, although who cpuld possibly miss Zion that place is lame as hell. They did show one of those lame looking mech things in the revolutions trailer, and if zion wasnt destroyed count on revolutions sucking just as much as this one.

V.

agreed conlusion 1: Zion is not the "real" world, its just another level of the Matrix

- Then EVERYTHING that's happened in the movie thus far is pre-destined/PROGRAMMED. Because WE, the audience, have not been introduced to the real "real" world yet.
Which leads to a question that will fuel both the haters and the appreciators, or rather a statement that has to be questioned. The Architect CONTRADICTED himself. He eluded to the fact that ZION is a part of the matrix aka a program, so then why is he analyzing Neo's reactions to what he's saying, and the "choice" he has to make, if the program is already written, therefore he should know what conclusions he, himself, programmed. Unless, the matrix is now breaking away from control of the machines and even taking control of them? now thats some shit. If this isn't addressed in part 3, then theres something to start hating on, cuz it will make no sense. The point of the first one was that we understood Zion to be "real" and that morpheus, neo etc. had a "real" goal to "free" humans from the control of the machines, but now that the "liberated humans" are STILL in the matrix, whats the point????
Now i think im seeing DrNO's displeasure from the movie. The first one had a point, a goal that in REALITY could be achieved, the liberation of humans. AS of the end of Reloaded, there is NO reality, thus NO goal.

check this site:
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I.T.A.K.K.S.

"Don't let the Facts get in the way of the Story" - Bill O'Reilly

"Free people are Free to make mistakes, commit crimes" - Donald Rumsfeld

That line sticks with me. The Wachowskis are attempting to explore what sci-fi folks have been writing and making movies about for decades. From the jedis in Star Wars to the replicants in Blade Runner, these folks have tried to mesh science, society and spirituality in interesting ways and in the case of Reloaded, The Matrix is a real world, a postmodern world.

The Matrix is the consequence of modernity: architecure, technology, external power, etc. The world appears real but it only reflects what people project or perceive. Neo is not a program. He can choose and it is choice that is not pre-destined or predetermined. I think the movie also speaks to people's level of programming or conditioning, how far down the rabbit hole they go before they stop (awareness). Zion is the most awake. At the top are the "batteries' fueling The Matrix.

Morpheus believes that Neo has transcended all of that. He is the (chosen) One, the force that revolves around it all.

>had
>a "real" goal to "free" humans from the control of the
>machines, but now that the "liberated humans" are STILL in
>the matrix, whats the point????

The only real way to be free is to free the mind. That's what Neo was able to do. He was able to liberate himself and transcend his programming. Remember when Neo was just a guy with a regular name, working a regular job but inside his head was a thought that everything was an illusion? I don't think that illusion was physical. This is what so many sci-fi books and movies are trying to explore: the condition of postmodernity, a world that exists to maintain the a status quo, layers upon layers of conditioning or programming and the protagonist who attempts to free his mind/spirit.

Neo represents some kind of quantum phenomenon, his life is a process of manifestation growing exponentially in each cycle, getting stronger gathering steam. His reality has transcended even Zion. This is part sci-fi, part Tao and Buddha, and even part Christianity. It's all that in a postmodern world where nothing is as it seems.

The next step is the void, emptying out all the mess and I hope starting again.

i'm not a big sci-fi fan so i might have to be more familiart with the post-modernity stuff. but i kinda understand what you're saying, but i still see Neo as PART of the program, therefore he is Controlled. And I don't see how a peice of a program can FREE itself from the Program. Is this whats happening, if so HOW? What about my question about programs taking over machines, or at least becoming Less controlled by them. This would be the same as the Machines being MADE by humans, but then no longer were under humans control, and actually took control of the humans. This happened before the Matrix, and then maybe in between that and Reloaded, the Programs got more powerful, well they obviously did. Yea, im starting to think this is true, because all the Exiled programs are no longer under control of the Architect, and Agent Smith is no longer under his control either, he was "released" and Neo going inside him and them downloading/uploading released Neo as well. Aight, i changed my mind, i can see how this works, what you think about this?

check this site:
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The Future of Rap
I.T.A.K.K.S.

"Don't let the Facts get in the way of the Story" - Bill O'Reilly

"Free people are Free to make mistakes, commit crimes" - Donald Rumsfeld

>i'm not a big sci-fi fan

I didn't think I was either but I am my mother's daughter (she's a sci-fi fan and computer programmer).

>but i still see Neo as PART
>of the program

We are all programmed/conditioned but Neo is transcending it while others remain hard-wired or somehow a slave to the system.

>And I don't see
>how a peice of a program can FREE itself from the Program.
>Is this whats happening, if so HOW?

Conceptually, Neo is human, as are others but part of being a battery included being mentally hardwired from birth and once that reality is over there is still a process to be free of that system of control. They/we are still experiencing various levels of conditioning. So the human is part of the system (not a program) until he/she is able to transcend it like Neo.

I think people are confused as to what is human or a program inside The Matrix. The Oracle can only be seen inside the Matrix because she is a program but she's a helpful one.

>What about my question
>about programs taking over machines, or at least becoming
>Less controlled by them.

The program goes down with the machine. They can't destroy what they are dependent on. Humans are different, I think, their minds are controlled and they can choose to be free of the system, depending on whether or not they are hard-wired or not. The confusion is around who is actually inside and hardwired and who is not but still somehow acting out the purpose that was set in the system. Neo was able to set his own course, reprogram his own thinking and transcend the system...not all at once but a degree at a time.

>Yea, im starting to think this is true,
>because all the Exiled programs are no longer under control
>of the Architect, and Agent Smith is no longer under his
>control either, he was "released" and Neo going inside him
>and them downloading/uploading released Neo as well.

I still think the programs like the Oracle are allowed to exist and are dependent on the system. Agent Smith is a rogue but not yet a threat to the system and not to humans who are outside of the Matrix. But he wants control of it all and now he has some new abilities because of Neo. It remains to be seen what those new abilities will allow him to do.

"The program goes down with the machine. They can't destroy what they are dependent on. Humans are different, I think, their minds are controlled and they can choose to be free of the system, depending on whether or not they are hard-wired or not."

- what about the machines, they were once dependent on humans, humans created them. and they have destroyed them 5 (6?) times already. we weren't told HOW the machines came around to controlling humans--and being able to destroy them--and i think the same has now happened to the machines, by the program, and we're not told that either. part three is supposed to be focused on Agent Smith vs. Neo, so its the liberated Program vs. the liberated Human, and i dont know whats goin on with the machines. ????



check this site:
http://www.itakks.com
The Future of Rap
I.T.A.K.K.S.

"Don't let the Facts get in the way of the Story" - Bill O'Reilly

"Free people are Free to make mistakes, commit crimes" - Donald Rumsfeld

There's a two part short film that explains how the machines took over.

Basically, man created them to work.
Their intelligence improved.
They formed their own society and wished to be treated equal.
Out of fear, the humans rejected their plea and attacked them.
They retaliated, we lost.

Programs are separate entities that preform specific job. Like just to simply move the mouse to click on something, there are several programs working(one to show the movement on the screen, one to decipher the actual movement of the mouse etc). And still, those programs are working under other programs(the web browser, and on the highest level, windows).

The Matrix is just one big virtual world, kinda like a videogame Grand Theft Auto for instance. To make sure everythings running smoothly, they have programs running to govern aspects of it. However, unlike grand theft auto where the programs are simple(push left on controller, make guy on screen walk left, for the Matrix they have to give them minds of their own, Artificial Intelligence, to do their jobs. And like anything, with a mind of its own, it can make its own choices.

And realistically, there's no difference between a program in the matrix, and machines in real life (lets say the Terminator for instance. Because the way the Terminator 'thinks' is just one big program stored physically.

I don't think the Architect ever alluded to Zion just being a part of a program. Rather, he implied that Zion and it's inhabitants were real, just that they were being manipulated to weed out 'The One' so he can make the Matrix stronger. Thus, although the Zionists were 'real', they were still controlled by machines. And the council guy's conversation with Neo foreshadowed that. You're right in that the idea of Zion being a matrix within a matrix makes little sense. Why would they let Neo fall in love with Trinity then?

I'm still confused as to what the Oracle's role is. Is she working for or against the machines?

I mostly hate it because the fight scenes were boring, the pacing was poor, the cgi was too blatant, the new characters were boring and the acting was sub par.

* the french cat: his significance? we think, since he said that the *PREVIOUS* "the One's" were "much more considerate" meaning he dealt with this stuff for a loooooong time, that he is a programer of the sentenals.

Why? because he obviously was a programer ("I wrote it my self" - when talkin of the choclate cake) and if you looked at the floor during his scenes, there was a star shaped sign VERY sim-ualar to the sentenals.

Plus when the albino cats get ghoast, so to speak, they look bery simillar to the sentenals. But since homey got away, i think he is gonna play a big part in the next one at some point.

*the "real" world is indeed another, "back up" part of the matrix, hince Neo's power at the end.


*a good majority of the characters are just programs and viruses. (i.e.: Oracle's bodygaurd = anti virus program, smith = virus)


*that the next one is gonna blow all the mothafuckas who though this stuff they were talking was a bunch of bullshit are gonna get they domes blown by the "revalations".












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> Plus when the albino cats get ghoast, so to speak, they
>look bery simillar to the sentenals. But since homey got
>away, i think he is gonna play a big part in the next one at
>some point.

This theory is very interesting. You're right about their similarity. I never noticed that until I read this post.

neo being offered the candy by the oracle during their meeting? the candy looked like the "red pill" that morpheus offered neo in order to learn the truth. maybe it symbolized that neo was about to learn the the real truth?

I caught that too. Here's what popped into my mind: candy=empty calories SO truth=empty? Meaning, that what Neo thinks of truth so far since eating the red pill in the first movie has been empty. He asks Oracle, "why are we here", or something like that and she replies "Because I like Candy" (or something like that). The truth so far might taste good (or feel good) for Neo, but it doesn't have any real substance. Hence, the red pill being just candy. I think that would support the whole Zion is still in the Matrix theory already stated here.

and it being another level of the Matrix are the human energy fields.

-Why would the machines have to simulate an underground city and the false sense of human energy fields if only a small number of humans would see it? 99% of their supposed energy source would still be happily in the Matrix.

-Furthermore, why would they reveal to those humans they are breeding them? What would be the point of that? Level after level of fake existence to keep 1% of the human crop alive?

-Or are the humans even being used by the machines for power? If so, like the two movies have strongly suggested, why would they even bother fabricating this second Matrix for those who freed the first?

_______________
There is nothing wrong with knowing that you are better than most and being proud of it

on my second viewing.

Architect: "blah blah blah. An empathetic machine. blah blah blah...she could be called its mother."

Neo: "The Oracle?"

Architect: "Please."

Conclusion: The Oracle is not the "mother" of the Matrix and did not betray Neo. The mother of the Matrix is your girl Belucci, who has the ability to understand human feelings. There's gonna be some really interesting explanation for why the Oracle did what she did.

Oh, and I'm buying into my wild card theory even more now. What separates this "The One" cycle from the previous five are two things: 1) Neo's choice againt the Architect's preferred plan, causing the entire plan to be placed in jeopardy, placing the existence of the Matrix in jeopardy, and rendering Neo a wild card with special, unforeseen powers, and 2) Agent Smith. There's never been a Smith before in the previous five uprisings against the Matrix, I gurantee, because the existence of Smith threatens to destroy the entire system. If you watch the preview for Revolutions, it's clear that one of the main plot lines revolves around how Smith, a virus, is infecting and destroying the Matrix, and that only Neo can stop him and thus save the Matrix and everyone plugged into it.

just like the Key Master - designed specifially to do a job. I think we discussed above about the Oracle not being the Mother...Persephone? Thats a good guess, but then why she shackin up with Frenchie?

so they can predict or learn new outcomes to each new 'one' etc...just a thought.


monterey jack

'Nothing says "Obey me" like a bloody head on a post'

The kissing scene seemed so superfluous that I feel like there has to be more meaning to it. She also alluding to a possible later attempt to break up Neo and Trinity ("such things cannot last" or something to that effect). Is she, in fact, the mother of the Matrix?

maybe she downloaded sumthin from Neo from touching him..?

V.

Since the Matrix seems big on having the names mean something... (Neo being an anagram for One, etc) maybe Persephone means something.

In Greek mythology, Persephone was kidnapped by Hades and taken to the underworld. Eventually her mother (Demeter, I think) persuaded Zeus to bring her back up, provided she had not eaten while she was with Hades. Hades persuaded her to eat 4 pomegranite seeds before she left. So, Zeus comprtimised, and Persephone had to stay with Zeus for 4 months a year. In that time, Demeter wept, and the world went barren (winter). When she left, Demeter was overjoyed, and the world went all pretty and isht.

Now, it seems as if Persephone (in the movie) left the French guy, who is obviously evil and controls some relics of the old (analogous to Greek?) Matrix. After PErsephone left them, maybe it is a symbol of things about to get pretty again.

Or something like that.

Fuck it, I'm hungry.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

could someone explain this? wheen are people given this choice? how does it go about? im sort of lost on this point

My brain hurts a little but I do have a handle on some things. Some thoughts :

• Neo is "The One". At first I looked at this in a sort of biblical sense. Like Neo is some sort of savior. But let's think of it in computer terms. Instead of Neo as "The One", what if it is more like Neo is "The 1", such as binary code.

• during the architect scene, there are a bunch of Neos up on the screens, reacting differently each time the architect speaks. Someone offered the explanation that those were previous "ones". This could be, but if its true that there have been only 5 previous Ones, then why were there more than 5 Neos on screen. And why do they all look alike? My theory is that those Neos on screen each represented a possible reaction from Neo that the Matrix expected. Only one time do all the Neo's on screen do the same thing, after which the Architect comments that denial is the easiest emotion to predict. So I don't think those were the previous Ones, but rather different routes Neo could have taken in the convo.

• Also, just because in the Matrix 3 trailer, we hear a voice saying someone must stop "him" or all is lost while Neo is fighting Agent Smith on screen, it doesn't necessarily mean this voice is talking about Agent Smith. She might not even be talking to Neo.
Anyway, I have faith that the 3rd one will clear all this up.

Right as the keymaker is "dying" he hands them a key and says something to the effect of 'this will take you home'...
I forgot if anyone ever used that key, or will it come into play later? What did that mean?

"that door will take you home" he then gave the key to Neo, and told him that he would know which door to choose.

>So I don't think those were the previous
>Ones, but rather different routes Neo could have taken in
>the convo.

given xxx choice (say, go right or left, but in this case, accept the matrix as real)

99.9% of folks will just go ahead and go left. why, cuz the signs say go left, the road goes left, etc.

sooner or later, there is bound to be that one special person who says fuck that and goes right.

given enough time, ad enough people, you'll have a lot of cats who went right, and then it starts going over into the other 99.9%, or just fucking up the plan in general.


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heh..thanks. putting it in "real" terms cleared it up

will be adam and eve.

two things no one brought up:


forget smith entering zion as that hand cutting fellow,

what was the man smith duplicated himself into and the other guy phoning themselves out of the matrix doing in the matrix?

after one of them said "did you see that agent? i've never seen anything like that" the other (the one who left through the phone first before smith came) said "this is all that matters now" (holding up an envelope which he put in his pocket)


also, for some reason i feel that the idea of zion just being another level of the matrix is too obvious a solution...did anyone notice how throughout the movie there was so much emphasis that neo is "only human" ...it is mentioned more then once..

"this" was the communique from the oracle

Any ideas? Why does the Architect need to rebuild Zion if they want it destroyed?

So he can weed out the next 'One' to make the Matrix stronger (by disseminating his code into the source), and then the next, and so forth until there are no 'Ones'.

... I don't think anyone has talked about this yet, but does anyone remember who the annoying kid said the spoon was from?

What was it's significance???

he said it was from one of the orphans

"There is no spoon"

Remember?


Back from the dead.

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How did Smith get into the hallway?

CORPORATE MOFO
reloads
THE MATRIX
by
Ken Mondschein

Going into The Matrix: Reloaded, I wasn't worried if the fight scenes or special effects would measure up to the first film—it was the metaphysics that bothered me. The first Matrix was such a neat allegory of Gnostic philosophy, I was more concerned with how the Brothers Wachowski could successfully extend the metaphor into three films than whether they could pull off even more virtuoso examples of cinematic ass-stomping. What was mindblowing about the first movie, after all, wasn't the fight choreography or bullet time, but its brave assertion that the banal, day-to-day reality we live in isn't the real world. In that sense, all the wire-fu was just the candy coating on the red pill the filmmakers were offering to every high school student and cubicle slave in the world. (Though, since I study martial arts myself, I found the idea of kung fu as being metaphorical for something happening in hyper-reality, a la Thibault's mysterious circle, to be pretty darn appealing.)

Thankfully, Reloaded more than allayed my fears, even if it seems that half the reviewers either didn't understand what the Wachowskis were getting at, or else were only paying attention during the highway chase. Watching the movie, I was personally less impressed by the fists of digital fury than by the Brothers' evident familiarity with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the theology of Origen of Alexandria. Seen in the light of the books they're referencing, the movie's plot is brilliant; of course, to the non-initiate, the characters' actions and dialogue seems arbitrary and incomprehensible, and the exposition is just filler between car crashes. It would seem, therefore, that a bit of exegesis of The Matrix: Reloaded is warranted. But be warned: If you haven't seen the movie yet, don't read on. There are some major spoilers.

Much like that other great Keanu Reeves vehicle, Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, The Matrix: Reloaded centers around the hero's journey into the Underworld. Frazier, in The Golden Bough, notes that it is a prophetess—in this case, the Oracle—who sends the hero off on his journey, from where he returns with special knowledge. And, of course, that's just what Neo does, though it would have been a while lot more amusing if he'd had Alex Winter along. (The Oracle probably isn't entirely benign, by the way, even though she may not consciously intend any harm: She is, after all, the one who sent Neo on the path to the Core.)

Neo's first task is to rescue the Keymaker (Randall Duk Kim, doing his best Rick Moranis impression) from the Merovingian, who is a daemon—in both senses of the word—left over from a previous version of the Matrix. (The Merovingians were the ruling Frankish dynasty; they were succeeded by Charlemagne's family, the Carolingians, and then by the Capetians, who thought they were descended from Christ.) The guy in the health food store where I buy my granola and soy milk thinks that The Merovingian was one of Neo's predecessors, but all the explanation I need, as well as the way I understand his obvious fascination with human pleasures, is found in Genesis 6:4—"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. . ." According to various sources, including Kabbalah, this mating of men and angels (here, a computer program from an earlier version of the Martrix) is what produced various monsters, such as the vampires and wraiths that serve the Merovingian. Dante, bringing a Christian sensibility to the proceedings, placed these monsters in his Inferno. Thus, though the Merovingian is sort of an antediluvian remnant of the former world, he's also (as is shown by the fact that his wife is named Persephone) kind of like Hades, the holder of the keys to the underworld. What the Keymaker does, much like the golden bough the Sybil gives Aeneas, is open doors and permit Neo access to the underworld—or, in this case, the Core.

After the requisite battles and explosions, Neo gets into the Core and finds The Architect. Considering that The Architect built the Matrix, you might think that he's God. Of course, he's nothing of the sort. In Gnostic theology, it is Satan, not God, who has created the world in order to imprison humanity. It is also the Architect who is unleashing the Sentinels to destroy Zion; that is, beginning the Battle of Armageddon. It is my prediction that in the third and final film, it will be revealed that there is a power behind the Architect, and that he is the one who sent the One into the Matrix. It is also my prediction that this guy will look a lot like Neo.

The important thing is choosing what to believe from the raft of condescending exposition that the Architect inflicts on Neo. He says, basically, that though ninety-nine percent of humans believe in the illusion of the Matrix, there is that troublesome one percent (comparable to the few awakened Gnostic true believers) who refuse to believe in the created world. This tends to produce massive amounts of instability, and crashes the system. (Not coincidentally, most of the people in Zion seem to be black or Hispanic, which makes perfect sense: If you're a white suburban Matrix resident, driving your Matrix SUV to your Matrix golf club, why doubt the nature of reality?) The solution is that they allow the dissidents to escape to Zion, which they can then periodically destroy. They have also created the Prophecy of the One, who is in fact a device sent by the machines into the "real" world so that his knowledge of humanity may be integrated into the system in order to further perfect the Matrix-illusion, and then allowed to re-start Zion so that the cycle can begin again. The idea of multiple creations and a cycle of created and destroyed worlds is, needless to say, also found in theologies as wildly variant as the Mayan and the Buddhist.

The idea that the Prophecy—and Zion—were just another means of control is lifted right out of French philosophy. The first movie made use of Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation; this movie seems to be dipping into Foucault and Derrida, who wrote that the systems of power and control are all-pervasive, and language is one of the ways they make their influence felt. The Prophecy is, like all prophecies, speech, and thus language. More importantly, it is a religion, and, as John Zerzan writes, the purpose of a religion is to manipulate signs, that is, words, for the purpose of control. Zion is the longed-for millennial promised land; by keeping the war between good and evil foremost in their hearts, even the freed humans are kept from doubting their own world, from thinking too hard about why things are the way they are.

Understanding why things are the way they are requires an understanding of another holy text: Asimov's Laws of Robotics. The machines, as demonstrated by Smith's need to try to kill Neo even after being "freed," don't have free will. (Likewise, in Gnostic theology, angels and other such divine beings also don't have free will—only humans do.) The bit about the machines needing human bio-energy to survive, as Morpheus (the dreamer) explained in the first movie, is bullshit. The machines keep humanity alive but imprisoned, even after taking over the world, because they were created to serve people. In other words, the machines would like to destroy humanity, but they CAN'T. Instead, they need a human to make the choice.

As the Architect reveals, Neo is not the first One, but rather the sixth. Why the sixth? The answer is that Neo's five previous incarnations represent the Five Books of Moses that make up the Old Testament. Neo (representing Christ, and thus the New Testament) differs from his five predecessors in his capacity to love. In the work of Origen of Alexandria and other Church Fathers, it is love ("eros" in Greek) that compels Christ to come down from the heavens to redeem humanity. Furthermore, "neo" means "new"—as in "New Covenant." In Neo, the machines have finally found the iteration of the One who will make the illogical choice of saving Trinity and dooming humanity.

This is the Architect's real purpose in giving Neo a choice between two doors. At once all human and all machine, rather than being a device to refine the Matrix into a more perfect simulation of reality, re-found Zion, and thus continue the endless cycle of death and rebirth—as the Architect says he is—the purpose of the One is to be manipulated into destroying all of humanity. However, not having free will themselves, the machines are not able to comprehend it in others—and thus Neo, being also human, is a bit of a wild card. It is Neo's destiny—as was Christ's in Origen's theology—to break the cycle of death and rebirth, and offer humanity a new future. This is shown by the fact that, by the end of the movie, Neo (and also, incidentally, Smith) gain power over machines in the "real world"—which shows that he has power not only over the first—level simulated world of the Matrix, but also the second-level simulation of Zion.

Miscellaneous touches I liked:

Neo and Trinity are shown making love beneath an arch. In religious iconography, being shown beneath an arch is a traditional sign of divinity. Masaccio's fresco at the right, for instance, shows the Holy Trinity beneath an arch.
The fact that The One comes from the machine world is a brilliant way to write around the fact that Keanu Reeves can't act.
Neo's own gift of prophecy is explainable by the fact that, like the Oracle, he comes from beyond the Matrix—that is, the world—and thus exists outside of time, much like God in St. Augustine's theology.
I saw the movie sitting next to a really cute girl.


Things to be wrapped up in the third movie:

Who's behind The Architect?
Neo will need to make a choice—but what is this choice?
The climactic Battle of Armageddon between Good and Evil will have to take place—but what will happen afterwards?
What's Agent Smith's role in all this? His ability to multiply is reminiscent of the demon Jesus exorcised ("my name is Legion"), but I bet he's going to wind up being an ally of Neo's.
How is Neo able to zap the machines in the "real world"?
How did Tank die?
Will Link live to see Zee again?
Will Niobe leave Jason Lock and go back to Morpheus?
Will priestly cassocks become a fashion trend for men?
What pivotal role will be performed by Neo's adoring acolyte?
How will Bane sabotage the human defense of Zion? Will Neo kill him?
What led Morpheus to the Oracle in the first place?
Is the "real world" only another level of simulation, an outer matrix, indicative of matrices upon matrices, onionlike in their layering upon each other?
What're they going to do about the fact that Gloria Foster, who played The Oracle, died?
Will Neo wake up and say, "Bill, dude, you won't believe this bitchin' dream I just had. . ."?

thats really good. really cleared up some of the Architect/Oracle conversations.

Also, the part about machines needing humans is definitely connected to the conversation Neo has with the Councilman in the engineering rooms.

Can you post a link?

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

that was soooo nice to read

it totally changed the way i think about this movie

Lemme breakitdown... the matrix revol. will reveal that the matrix is indeed a brand spanking new online virtual reality/sim city type video game from Microsoft, that has been playing with and against all the characters in the three movies. The Users names: Architect, Maplewood, NJ ;
Parsiphonie(sp) Hyattsville, MD; and Oracle; Stone Mountain, GA.


Retail Price: 49.99

your welcome.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

-infinitly hood

*sits in lotus position*

(from the other post)...the stuff keeps coming up in my head all the time I talk about Reloaded/The Matrix (only saw Reloaded once)...I like the idea of Neo straddling two worlds at once. Both worlds are running side by side, the visible and the invisible. Neo is the ultimate warrior because he is able to straddle both.

In The Matrix the invisible world (Matrix) generates and supports the visible world from inside, like the physical one is thrown across the Matrix like a cover for protection and to keep the game of hide-and-seek going on and on (until Revolutions).

This entire illusion runs on ones and zeros (ons and offs) like the computers the "pilots" use to navigate. When the visible world is one the Matrix is off, like yin and yang. Like The Architect alludes to, this invisible world contains all the information that ever existed or ever will exist. There is no time, no past, no future, just one present moment that keeps going on and on. This is almost like the spiritual world except it is presented as artificial intelligence.

The Animatrix tells the story of how humans began to worship the machines/technology like gods so this idea of a technological/spirit world makes sense.

So Neo crisscrosses between worlds, bringing his Matrix/spirit body out into the real world, while becoming more accustomed to the other side. He is becoming familiar with both sides to the point of being able to transcend or merge them together. Neo can go there (the Matrix) to fly, to recharge, to become empowered, and continue on his path while helping others along the way. It's in this way that Neo is able to foretell the future (Trinity's death) and perhaps change the present based on that knowledge.

Finally, I think the two doors in that room are in all of us. We can choose power or love. It's our choices that define who we are.

Either Trinity or that lady that kissed Neo is the "mother" of the Matrix, (I'd lean towards the later) but I definitely think the architect was on some "kid please" ish. If it was the kissing lady would also explain the kissing of Neo and Niombe as a way to further understand human emotions (love), which would ultimately lead to Neo's ability to break the cycle, and her need to understand the want for power in hanging out with frenchy.

I'm pretty sure that Zion is a 2nd level of the Matrix. That would fit perfectly with the whole illusion of choice thing frenchy talks about. Zion is a sort of safety net thing, catching the people who reject the matrix…I guess the difference with Neo is that he is going to break out of both (assuming that there are only two) levels.

I think the reason all these programs don’t do what they’re supposed to is because they are A.I., and pretty much have free will. I also think the movie makes more sense if you look at it from a programmer’s view than a religious person’s.

I don't understand who the guy you get a brief glimpse of when they enter...he didn't look like the key maker dude, but then again I only saw this once and it went by pretty fast.

I liked the movie a lot. It ties in well with the Animatrix and the video game. Kinda reminds me of Xenogears with the whole reoccurrence of the one and the last “the one” being different (kinda like the whole “contact” thing with Fei) Its also the hardest I’ve ever thought about an action flick…I can appreciate that. The rave scene was a little too long and the end was a little too short, but I liked when they were in Zion for the most part…they also seemed to employ a lot of minority actors.

In the first episode he wanted to be free of the Matrix. Now how did achieved it. How?

he said it in the movie.

How can the Oracle know what Neo was dreaming about OUTSIDE of the matrix? How does she know he's having trouble sleeping (since he only "sleeps" in the real world)?

Zion is another level of the Matrix.

Overall, I liked the movie.

Peace

Wendell

Well actually, the Oracle knowing about his dreams doesn't support the theory that Zion is part of the matrix quite as well as some of the other evidence. But it is still significant.
One could argue that since he plugs into the matrix with his mind, and dreams all take place within the realm of the mind, somehow the Oracle could be able to read Neo's thoughts.
But yeah, Zion isn't what it was cracked up to be in the first movie. That much is given.

probably a trend. or something programmed. who knows what control/surveillance the machines have?

i thought this was dope:


The following was written by aj naito.
I think this is what is the matrix. Since we are humans we
believe that the movie must be about people. But actually it is about software and mainframecode.
The main computer has been caught in a loop cycle for
5 iterations, and it is trying to find a variance that will break this cycle by utilizing a random bit anomaly piece of software (Neo), to allow it to fully completeits cycle.
It has tried this before, but has always failed
and in its attempts. It is trying to factor in all variables of its program to make absolute sure of complete success before it attempts to actually implement the complete procedure, like an good piece of software (debugging iteself - "it is the why that is important").
Beta software waiting to go gold. The only factor that was not counted on was an anomaly of two programs intersecting and one becoming a self-replicating virus bent on absolute destruction(Smith), and the anomoly (Neo) complementing his program with
protectorate software. This is a brilliant movie, that once
you wrap your head around, is really just an ultimate version of Tron with no human watchers (Jeff Bridges), of a computer SuperNoc running through a simulation with all possible factors being worked first, before it initializes the
program for real. If Neo completes his role and meets his
ultimate purpose as software, then our hero allows the computer to see all variances that it will need to contend with, so that it can fully implement the real program on our world.
Matrix - main base operating system.
Zion - secondary operating system for software that can no longer can function in main sytem - but can be utilized to build new a matrix system.
Neo - Random bit anomaly software for breaking loop cycle - utilized by the Oracle and Architect software to be a random variable to upgrade itself - upgraded with protectorate code from Smith (Anti-Virus).
Trinity - complement software to aid in Neo's completion of purpose. Morpheus and crew - collector programs
for mainframe to try to enable the end of the loop cycle.
Architect - Mainframe operating system.
Oracle - old Macro Software that has been part of all 5 iterations of the loop and can see all variances.
Oracle's Protector - Mainframe hard code software.
Merovingian - old Neo that did not fully implement objective in beta 5.0.
Merovingian's wife - old trinity code.
Twins, and Merovingian's guards - old base black ice protector code.
Head Counselor in Zion - Advisor for Mainframe that advises
Neo along his upgrade to not touch the main bios (engineering) systems.
Key Maker - come on now, to easy, a simple keygen.
Smith - self-replicating virus - now capable of moving to either system - infused with anomaly code from Neo.
I truly loved this movie and it is so amazingly deep compared
to the first if you know what it really happening. I hope this helps anyone who walked out of the theater like 95% of the crowd I saw it with, scratching their heads thinking, "What the f**K, that was stupid I don't get it."
I am stating that what I am saying is absolute, but if you watch the movie and listen to what they all truly are saying it seems pretty obvious. Be wary all, your hero is
our destruction, enjoy...

'veeerrryy interesting..' - Tim Hardaway

That actually makes the movie make more sense when looking at it in those terms..

Say buildingblock - can you provide the transcript of the frenchman's bit in the restaurant?

The more and more of these different explanations I read, the more I appreciate the movie. Sadly I think I like the ideas of the Matrix more than the actual movie.

Yep, that French dude was the original Neo. The fine ass wife said something to Neo like "a long time ago, he was just like you".

Nope, the Oracle is not the co-developer of the Matrix. Old boy was like: "nigga please", instead of "please allow me to continue"

My wife is trying to figure the shit out now. It's fucking her up.

Peace

Wendell

But he's a program, right? Does that mean Neo is a program, or that programs can serve as the one too?

I would think if anything he was more like Agent Smith.

the oracle, i beleve, found out that a process could be created to keep the matrix in place. a wild goose chase for the "free-minded" in zion, a way to have the one reload the matrix.

the matrix program is flawed...not all of its inhabitants accept the programing. this creates a anomoly within the program, this being the one or neo.

the one, i believe, has the potential to destroy the matrix. therefore, the oracles prophcey was created to guide the one to the end and the begining for all, the matrix reloading.

if that is true then the "real world" would be a part of the matrix, or another layer of control. this is because, according to the architect, the one would have to choose the next inhabitants of zion...the 14 females and 7 males(or whatever).

this i believe is the real shit now. neo has become aware of this second layer of control and now is able to manipulate it just like the first layer of the matrix. that is why he can feel the sentinels aproching.

but i have a question now. the existance of both man and machine is intertwined. man exists for the matrix, the matrix exists for man. how is all going to play out

Yess.. Another One...

The thing i don't get.. and what i thought was really corny..

Why does he reaches in her body and kinda fetish like, massages her heart to make her alive again!? Is it to show That He knows now that, not only in the 1st matrix he can Ignore the rules and jump From Building to building.. but now also he knows that the 'real world' is only a 2nd matrix and therefore also there he can fly as fast as superman and.. shit, why not reach into someones body and make her alive again! What will Happen with Trinity now the Whole Plot from the architect to let trinity die is Cancelled by Neo!? Is she gonna play a Major part in revolutions!? and is she indeed the "mother of the matrix"?! Or do you believe Persephone is That "mother" since architect talked about an EMPATHIC machine, when he talked about the 'Mother'!? My guess would be, that persephone is, as stated in the reply 1 or 2 above, she is 'the old trinity' who once was with frenchy like trinity now is with neo and wants to feel some plain ol' love.. My guess would be that trinity's role in revolutions will be much bigger than frenchy's wifey.. WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH TRINITY AND WHO IS SHE!? SHE's STUCK IN MY HEAD GODDAMNIT! AAAAH!



ps.

Excuse me for Randomly putting in Capital Letters.. The Matrix programmed me to Be someone Who likes that and does so.. I'm not the kind of person Who goes INFINITELY AGAINST THE GRAIN -black Thought- and asks myself HEY WHAT IS THE MATRIX And tries to understand everything.. I Just go Left when the road Goes Left..

we more than likely touched on every single possible outcome INCLUDING the real one.

Doesn't that take out the suspense of what actually does end up happening?

no one has mentioned neo clicking his heels three times and going home....