>I was saying
>that he had not whittled away to nothing at the time of MX's
>assassination.

Check this out: http://www.ink19.com/issues/april2003/printReviews/evolutionOfNationOf.html

"Elijah Muhammad was only the figurehead of the Nation of Islam. His ability to shape the evolution of the Nation was quite limited, and his ideology quickly became stagnant. Thus, it is no wonder that when Malcolm X disavowed Muhammad's ideological tunnel vision, many left the Nation with him."

>Also, if E.M. was a figurehead, who was the actual leader
>during this time?

Not leader but leaders. There were plenty of spokesmen/leaders speaking on behalf of Elijah Muhammad at the time of Shabazz' death.

>Mentioning an organization and telling on them is 2 different
>things.

I provided a link...people can read.

>>>So yes, Black people were the puppets that were seen
>pulling
>>>the trigger, but who was the puppeteer?
>>
>>So are you denying that some of the assassins were not from
>>No. 25?
>
>This is also misleading because you typed the question in the
>form of a double negative. So I will re-type the question the
>way that I think you meant to ask it, and you can let me know
>whether my re-phrasing is accurate or inaccurate.

There was no need to re-type anything. You knew what I meant.

>Some of the
>assassins may've been from Mosque # 25, some of them may not
>have been. Talmadge Hayer I believe was from mosque # 25, so
>at least he was one that I would have to say yes to.

No. 25 was involved. NOI do not do anything without a directive. Even if they had been working for the FBI they could not have just acted on their own. My point is that the assassins were getting directives from the FBI and NOI. It was the same directive.

This reminds me of a time some "spies" from a local newspaper signed up for classes at a new center where I was director. The newspaper had previous published some damaging articles about the org and I told my supervisors that I thought they were plants. Sure enough the paper published another negative article but praised the new center. The plants disappeared. I learned a lot from that experience...about politics and the b.s. people will do to maintain a status quo.

>>Like a witness protection program it was part of the deal.
>>
>
>No, it wasn't part of the deal; IT WAS PART OF THE JOB. No
>need for them to hang around there anymore, their work was
>done (i.e., MX was dead and confusion, fingerpointing, and
>misblaming was abound concerning who was responsible for his
>death) so time to move on to the next assignment.

There was plenty of chaos before he died and it continued afterwards.

>Fishy, huh? What I got out of those links is that Farrakhan
>gave a leadership position in the NOI to a man who was wrongly
>convicted for the death of MX. Abdul Aziz (then Norman
>Butler) stood trial for the murder of MX and was convicted but
>he wasn't even at the Audobon that day. That day, he had gone
>to the hospital for a doctor's appt. for treatment for his
>injured leg, which was confirmed by witnesses and hospital
>records. But yet, he was still convicted of MX's
>assassination.

And that's not fishy?

>You can disagree all you want. Malcolm couldn't prove it;
>Betty couldn't prove it; and you can't prove. The only thing
>anyone can do is have suspicions and make accusations, but no
>one can prove anything so no one really knows.

After talking with my colleague whose family was at the Audobon when Shabazz was murdered it was clear that any voices that could prove anything were silenced out of fear. My "boy" jambone just posted an excellent video that just touches on that fear. You should check it out.

>What documents did he show you? What was the source of these
>documents?

Some publications within the NOI at the time and right after Shabazz' death.

>First of all, E.M. identified these women as his wives and he
>took care of them and their children as such (one of these
>women, Tynetta Muhammad and her son, Ishmael (also, E.M.'s
>son), hold leadership positions in the Nation to this very
>day). MX knew about this so-called immorality when he was on
>silent probation and was trying to get back into an active
>position in the NOI. So for him to claim to be leaving
>because of some "sexual immorality" sounds suspect to me.

Well, in this country what Muhammad did is immoral AND illegal. Ask the Mormons.

>Okay, I know the pilgrimage to Mecca is a requirement of
>Muslims in the NOI if it is within their means.

Man, it is more than just the haijj (that was an example). There are plenty of requirements for folks who truly follow Islam that is not a requirement in the NOI.

>Secondly, this wasn't Malcolm's first time seeing white
>Muslims. He made a trip to the so-called Middle East years
>before the 1964 trip and unless all the white Muslims had left
>town that day, it is likely he saw white Muslims and knew that
>there white Muslims existed.

I think what Shabazz was saying was that it all came together for him during the haijj.

>Thirdly, I refuse to believe that MX was naive enough to
>believe in this ritual meaning much of anything.

WTF??? What b.s. is this? Plenty of Muslims around the world take haijj very seriously.

>And lastly, I assume that you believe the NOI should practice
>a non-race prejudiced based Islam like the Islamic Arabs
>enslaving and committing all kinds of abuses and atrocities
>against Black Afrikans in the Sudan.

But you cannot generalize Islam or any religion. Corruption was everywhere. You should check out The Power of Nightmares:

"This film explores the origins in the 1940s and 50s of Islamic Fundamentalism in the Middle East, and Neoconservatism in America, parallels between these movements, and their effect on the world today. From the introduction to Part 1:

"Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. And both had a very similar explanation for what caused that failure. These two groups have changed the world, but not in the way that either intended. Together, they created today's nightmare vision of a secret, organized evil that threatens the world. A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most powerful. " The Power of Nightmares, Baby It's Cold Outside." - http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

BTW - I am not a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, nor do I represent any religion or philosophy. I hate corruption and recognize that there is duality in most things. People have to make a choice.

From an excellent article about "The Power of Individual Choice". I especially liked this part:

"Individual choice is very important. There is no way one cannot choose. Each volition comes with a resulting effect. That is why it is so powerful. The world we experience is the result of what we have made collectively. Seeing this, Donna and I have begun to choose differently. We are not saying our way is "the right way" for everyone. It's only right for us, given the circumstances we find ourselves in, at this particular point in time."