most of you are saying W. Kawhat who? Bell is a pretty well known comic in the bay area and recently opened up for Chappelle and company on the Block Party tour. i came across this on his MySpace blog:


Tuesday, February 07, 2006


Sarah Silverman is a racist.
Current mood: indescribable
Category: Movies, TV, Celebrities

I put this sentence at the end of a bulletin I posted recently. And the funny thing was the amount of responses that I got to that comment and not to the bulletin itself. (Though at this point I don't even remember what it was about either.) I put it in randomly. It was a thought rolling through my head at the time, but not because it was a "joke". I actually do believe it.

ANYWAY... Here's my point. First of all despite what people may think since I am a comedian, I don't have any INSIDE information as to her racism. (I have only met her once BRIEFLY several years ago, and like much of that alterna-stand-up crowd, she seeeeeeemed nice at the time... but then why wouldn't she?) I just saw her movie, Jesus is Magic, and I was... well... not so much stunned as I was disappointed in how racism is apparently becoming chic amongst the hipsters. (I guess if they can make Coldplay hip ANYTHING is possible.)

Watching her act I was just left cold by how racist jokes are apprently OK when they come out of a mouth of a beautiful woman who allegedly coats them in IRONY, but somehow when Larry the Cable Guy does his red state/redneck jokes(some of which are racist), David Cross and Lewis Black speak out aganst him in Rolling Stone. Rolling Stone is the same magazine that places the mantle of both Lenny Bruce AND Richard Pryor on Silverman's shoulders.

To quote Eddie Murphy in RAW, "GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!"

Sarah Sliverman NO PERCENTAGE of either Lenny Bruce OR Richard Pryor. (I have to believe that she would admit to this.) Those tw GENIUSES used the topics of race and sex to criticize the status quo AND to further the discussion of these topics along, not to just titillate as she does.

There is NOTHING wrong with titillation as long as it is not dressed up as intelligent social criticism.

It's not that I don't think she is funny. I GET THE JOKES. In fact, that is most of my problem... After listening to all of her racist jokes in her movie, I walked out thinking, "I GET IT, SARAH! All the stereotypes about black people are TRUE. Thanks for the update." I'm sure many would say that I am missing the ironic twist... YOU'RE CORRECT! After five or six of her jokes supporting the same stereotypes that have been perpetuated in the U.S. for four hundred years, I COMPLETELY MISS THE IRONY. Her comedic point of view on race seems so simplistic and unevolved. I would think her act was BRILLIANT... if she was twelve... or if it was out of the mouth of a comedic character who is CLEARLY an idiot... you know, like Andrew "Dice" Clay. His first album is still hilarious

The experience of watching her movie was all made the more pathetic for me due to the fact that these jokes are performed in front of a mostly white audience. (I say mostly, because I did actually see ONE black guy in the audience. And yes he was laughing... maybe because he came with white people.)

The ultimate tragedy of this is that Hollywood clearly not only condones this, but sees it as brilliant. In a time of incredible comics like Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and... (Well, I guess that's all we have for now.) who are clearly links to Bruce and Pryor AND are working hard to advance society's conversation about race it is painful to see Silverman SOOOOO celebrated. I will conclude with what I often say in situations like these, if me and all my friends (comics, performers, musicians, and artists) were as successful as her I wouldn't even blink an eye at her antics.

And YES, I know her act isn't all about race, but anyone familiar with her knows that it's basically 70% jokes that put down women and 30% jokes that put down minorities.

I'll leave it to someone else to cover that other 70%.

"A bunch of horrifyingly bigoted homophobic bullshit not coated in any sort of irony."

but for one thing, a much larger portion of her act is about her own stuff (female, jew) than about other races. So Kamau's misrepresenting it factually.

Silverman's humor comes not from how shocking the things she says are, but because it's a satire of the way that racism becomes almost banal in contemporary society. What's funny is the contrast between how hateful the things she says are and how much we want to like her because she seems like a nice, pretty girl. The joke is on us and our expectations.

As opposed to say Carlos Mencia or Andrew Dice Clay, where the joke is "this is what we're all thinking, but are too PC to say." Which of course is bullshit.

She's also a much more talented comedian than those two guys, and she's night and day more talented than Larry the Cable Guy.

>but for one thing, a much larger portion of her act is about
>her own stuff (female, jew) than about other races. So
>Kamau's misrepresenting it factually.


And YES, I know her act isn't all about race, but anyone familiar with her knows that it's basically 70% jokes that put down women and 30% jokes that put down minorities.


What I find interesting is when white people tell non-white people why they shouldn't be offended at her jokes. Sorry ya'll dont get to decide what I find racist or offensive and yes you can "get" her schikt and still find it racist or hurtful. Personally i havent seen enough of her act to form an opinion on it.

"What's funny is the contrast between how hateful the things she says are and how much we want to like her because she seems like a nice, pretty girl. The joke is on us and our expectations."

The fact that she's a pretty girl saying crazy shit is her schtick. To say that we want to like her and all that is great but she adds nothing to her insight. She is what she is and to me that's not all that funny.

That she is a pretty lady is part of her act, just as Richard Pryor being black is part of his act. Would you say that Richard Pryor's whole career is just based on him being black, and if he wasn't black no one would care?

Again, "What's funny is the contrast between how hateful the things she says are and how much we want to like her because she seems like a nice, pretty girl."

People didn't look at Pryor and think, wow I can't believe a black guy is saying that! What was funny was the material, not the contrast of what was being said and who was saying it. Someone else can say Pryor's material and it still works.

You yourself wrote that her appeal is that she's a pretty girl saying hateful shit. If I stand around spouting her act, it doesn't work because the material isn't funny.

She definitely relies on a one-dimensional schtick.

I always thought the point of her act is that it was absurd that anyone was allowed to get by on the logic that she constantly lampoons.

You're really reaching to find some use for her shock nonsense.

>Silverman's humor comes not from how shocking the things she
>says are, but because it's a satire of the way that racism
>becomes almost banal in contemporary society.

What she says *is* shocking, that's why she gets laughs from it.

And I think what you're saying works for the female-oriented stuff, because for the most part people don't pay much attention to the rampant misogyny and sexism around us all the time (I mean, look at the debate in the Lesson about Bubba Sparxxx and the "n" word, not a single person seemed to object that he was making the billionth song about women's butts, just that he used a single, racially charged word). Misogyny and sexism is truly banal, and it helps that she is a woman herself, but the race related humor is a different thing altogether.

>>Silverman's humor comes not from how shocking the things
>she
>>says are, but because it's a satire of the way that racism
>>becomes almost banal in contemporary society.
>
>What she says *is* shocking, that's why she gets laughs from
>it.
>
>And I think what you're saying works for the female-oriented
>stuff, because for the most part people don't pay much
>attention to the rampant misogyny and sexism around us all the
>time (I mean, look at the debate in the Lesson about Bubba
>Sparxxx and the "n" word, not a single person seemed to object
>that he was making the billionth song about women's butts,
>just that he used a single, racially charged word). Misogyny
>and sexism is truly banal, and it helps that she is a woman
>herself, but the race related humor is a different thing
>altogether.

I think the racism that goes on in the United States today is mostly quiet and banal-ized (at least for us white people). Which is the problem.

> What's funny is
>the contrast between how hateful the things she says are and
>how much we want to like her because she seems like a nice,
>pretty girl. The joke is on us and our expectations.
>

My problem is with the assumption that we don't expect to hear this from a nice, pretty Jewish girl. As a heterosexuall female, I don't have that assumption about her. She's not that cute. I think that the prettiest girl are the meanest because they can coast by in a lot of areas of their lives because they are pretty.

If anything that feeds into another stereotype about pretty/good-looking but not that bright women which she exploits without exploring.

>I think that the prettiest girl are the meanest because
>they can coast by in a lot of areas of their lives because
>they are pretty.
>
>If anything that feeds into another stereotype about
>pretty/good-looking but not that bright women which she
>exploits without exploring.

There's nothing else for her to do aside from suggesting it.

So maybe he's not the most credible source on comedy.

> I was disappointed in how racism is apparently becoming chic amongst the hipsters. (I guess if they can make Coldplay hip ANYTHING is possible.)

Heh heh... Coldplay...

--Maurice

>I was disappointed in how racism is apparently becoming
>chic amongst the hipsters. (I guess if they can make Coldplay
>hip ANYTHING is possible.)

It's true, racism *is* chic among hipsters (to a certain extent). At a point, it just becomes too difficult for an upper-class white person to really explore racism meaningfully, because you end up just feeling guilty and helpless, and so it becomes easier to just mock yourself and make "ironically" racist statements. And when you hang out with, generally, nothing but other white people it becomes a little in-joke between friends -- hey, I say racist stuff but I'm not a racist, right? Haha, oh racists, when will they ever learn!

So hipsters can say some terrible stuff and have a laugh about it, because everyone knows you're not *really* a racist and it's just a joke, but at the same time you're just revisiting the same tired shit. I guess you can make some kind of case for making light of those things that people generally don't like to talk about, but I still think it's kind of hurtful, and the real challenge is moving past those traps. That's what Silverman fails to do, at least according to this comic, is actually present anything beyond the shocking slur.

I don't know, I think it comes back to the hipster obsession with trap hop as well. And it *is* kind of telling that I can get away with making racist jokes (I'll admit to mainly making fun of jews, in a blatantly stereotypical way "so you heading back home to continue manipulating the world's money supply? have fun") but if I make similar jokes about women I generally get stares of disapproval and little laughter. And if I make jokes about white people, same thing. Blacks, latinos, Asians, though, those can always get big laughs. It's a weird phenomenon, no doubt.

i try to keep a 25,000-1 white-non white joke ratio. it keeps me out of trouble (most times).

it was some shit like, "i wouldn't mind being a black woman, but i like being pretty"

and like dude, i get THE JOKE and i see how she's tryna hold a mirror up to society, but that shit is malicious.

and it's not just her. i have seen several white comediennes (griffin, garofalo included) say some cruddy shit about black women celebrities and black women in general. oprah is a FREQUENT target.

whatever, though. she's a big jew.

Its not like she could go out,say the N word,or any other epiteths,and get a reaction.White society has become to smug in its own holier than though bullshit for that.
____________________
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

like, i couldn't get over the fact that she just stood there and called black women ugly. of all the comedians throughout all the years who have had racially-charged material, i'd never heard that particular "stereotype" even hinted at. the shit caught me off guard and i just wondered "do white women really think black women are ugly?" i mean, she had to hear it somewhere to know it would push buttons.

But I also think that all racial groups have that thinking-that anyone who looks slightly different is ugly.Look at the black women that the media portrays as beautiful-Halle and them all have very white features basically.More pointed noises,straight longer hair,etc.Now look at the one African looking model-she's "exotic".Not beautiful,just exotic.

I don't have a problem with Sarah Silverman using that joke simply because it does dig as something deeper in the thinking of the audience.I may think she's a reallt shitty comic,but anything that can bring out biases in people is at least worthwhile.
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

"I don't have a problem with Sarah Silverman using that joke simply because it does dig as something deeper in the thinking of the audience.I may think she's a reallt shitty comic,but anything that can bring out biases in people is at least worthwhile."

But does it? The only difference is that she has a liberal audience who says, "Oh she doesn't mean it, she's pointing out the flaws in the world." Everyone pats themselves on the back and says, "I know what she is making fun of. Ooh that racism is so wrong." She doesn't dig any deeper into their own biases.

Essentially, she is the 'Crash' of stand-up comics.

Like, watching Birth of a Nation can reveal people's biases, but that doesn't elevate it from being the racist tripe that it is. Sure, I chuckle at Bubba Sparxxx misogynistic songs, and even Murs for that matter, but that doesn't remove the terrible misogyny that is in them.

The challenge is moving past it and doing something new, and even I know that's incredibly difficult, but that's still the challenge.

But blaming a bad comedian for not challenging the audience enough is like blaming Tom Waits for not singing spirituals
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

And people can stop placing the crown on her head as comedy's next savior when, as the comedian who made the blog correctly said (in my opinion), her act really isn't that far removed from an Andrew Dice Clay.

But I'm not sure she gets that.If you ask her her favorite comedians and idols,she'll probably say Bruce,Carlin,Pryor,etc.She took the basic parts of their acts-Saying something dirty,disgusting,racist,etc,but she never expanded that.She's not good enough to


Its like asking an artist who only paints in blue cause Picasso did his best stuff in it.
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

If she is going to go the racism route then she better make damn sure she challenges people and digs deeper. If not, then she is almost worse off.

but again,she's not good enough or smart enough to get that point.

She's no better than the comedians who do white people drive like this,black people drive like that jokes
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

But like other people have said, the race stuff isn't really the thrust of her act, anyway, but still...

acting like she is actually saying something or sending a message.

We're agree she isn't good. I don't think Mencia or the Cable guy are funny either.

They're the other extreme of people who think Larry the Cable Guy is a decent human being
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

... I agree with a lot of these people who love her on many other things. That's why it's disappointing when she's championed as an edgy comic, when she's just making shock jokes like so many others. I mean, I know people who despise Andrew Dice Clay with a passion but think Sarah Silverman is just the bee's knees.

Although I've been hedging in a lot of the posts I made in this thread, because I do think her female oriented stuff is funny and legitimately a little edgy and progressive.

Maybe the real issue is that in order for jokes like this to work, you need to have actual group membership for you to be able to pass them off as funny. I mean, look at Margaret Cho -- how people don't just roll their eyes at some of her blatantly racist humor is always beyond me. She's the perfect parallel to Sarah Silverman, really.

___________________________________________________________________________________________
A
Michael Scott
Joint

The comedians who did that(Pryor,Carlin,Bruce,Rock,Hicks) were basically social commentators who told jokes.They wouldn't be out of place on a round table with any sociaologists,philosphers,etc.These guys weren't comedians as much as they were brilliant thinkers about people.


Silverman comes from the group that listened to them,understood that they were great,but don't get WHY.They think the dirt is the reason its funny,when in reality,its funny cause it goes deeper.She's not talented to enough to do that.That's why it can be forgiven,because she really doesn't know better.
____________________
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

Wouldn't you say that the fact that she knows exactly what to hit and how to hit it shows that she's probably conscious of the flaws that went into the moulding of that particular state of mind?

"Wouldn't you say that the fact that she knows exactly what to hit and how to hit it shows that she's probably conscious of the flaws that went into the moulding of that particular state of mind?"

At best she says offensive things to show how silly the stereotypes are which is something pretty much anyone can do. Some of them are clever but most of them IMO are lame and purely shock value. You think anyone who holds those stereotypes gets anything from her act (besides laughing with what they should be laughing at).

She preaches to the choir using shock value. I don't consider that inventivem talented or being "conscious of the flaws that went into the moulding of that particular state of mind"

She uses serious issues to get cheap laughs.

is the WHOLE POINT OF THE JOKE.

The statement is clearly not meant to be taken literally. If it was, it wouldn't even be a joke.

I mean if anything, she's clowning white people. Thats exactly what I got out of the joke. It's not funny at all, just acerbically sharp.

but instead of other comics gimmicks, she's not shocking with cuss words, she's not screaming at her audience, and she's not beating you over the head saying with how shocking she is by reminding you that she's being shocking.

i think she's comparable to Andrew Dice Clay in that she slips into this caricature of this horribly inept ditz with these outraeously offensive ideas. i also think that she, like ADC, is good at it because she's a better comic actress than a stand-up.

if you say you "get it" and yet you still find her to be racist then what i hear you saying is, "I know she's not really racist...but I still think she's racist because she's pretending to be.".

what topics does W. Kamau Bell typically cover in his act? I wish I could ask if he is funny or not, but that is a pretty subjective assesment and your sensibilities and mine could be totally off.

His biggest chunk is on how his dad is black, but his mom is BLACK. His dad being kind of bourgie and his mom being militant. It's funny. He's sort of what you would expect from a black San Francisco comedian... bright, funny, not too Def Comedy Jam-y, but deals with race a fair bit.

He used to do a bit about how big burritos are in San Francisco that had a line that I loved... "You've been talkin' a lot of shit, burrito."

He's a good guy and he's funny.

Nick... you remeber anything else he does? Or Jasper, you still lurking?

This doesn't add to what you've said, but just co-signs. But yeah, I wish I'd had a mom like his, lol.

those 2 can always pull together the social commentary and racist stereotypes

Cuz she ain't nothing but a Crackerjack box full of race jokes.

With no Crackerjack.

First of all, I guess I have to thank Big Nick for putting me on blast like this... Ah the wonders of technology.

Second of all, I still stand by what I said. I just want to clear up a couple of points...

1) If my post leads you to believe that I think that Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle are the only brilliant comics working then please allow me to apologize. I was trying to say that there are not many )living) comics who can successfully be compared to the brilliance of Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor (as members of the media have done with Silverman). They are the only two (nationally known) comics that I know of who deserve this kind of praise.

There are many, many other brilliant comedians. Not being able to be compared to Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor does not preclude you from being brilliant.

2) Eddie Murphy was never in my opinion trying to be ironic. Silverman clearly (in my opinion) is.

3) If anyone wants to see a clip of my stand-up go here

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/premium_blend/episode_guide/season_9/901.jhtml

Am I funny? Yes, you can decide for yourself. I haven't done that burrito joke in years, cuz it was stoopid.

My myspace page for this post and others is at

www.myspace.com/wkbonline

Ironically the person I have the biggest complaint with on this message board is the one person that I know (Ah Jesse, what happened to us?)... although maybe that's not true irony either. I'll have to ask Sarah.

Please...not Larry the Cable Guy

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VICTOR E. PANTHER

>Please...not Larry the Cable Guy
>
>____________________
>http://www.myspace.com/cantball
>
>
>VICTOR E. PANTHER


lots of people... famous and not so much... Marc Maron, Mitch Hedberg (The jokes are still working overtime.) Dave Attell, Robert Hawkins, Dwayne Kennedy, Bill Burr, Bill Cosby (Yeah, he's still working.), Wanda Sykes, Brian Reagan, Bill Hicks (Screw it. Why should I just stick to living people?), Greg Proops, and Larry the Cab... Just kidding.

As you can see this comics are stylistically all over the map. This list is by no means exclusive. This is just the names I can come up with right now. And remember my perception of most of these people isn't just from watered down TV sets. It's from seeing stand-up the way GOD intended, LIVE!

W. KaWhat? Who? Whatshisname?

www.myspace.com/wkbonline

as you do Sarah Silverman?
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

Cross is a different comic altogether IMO.

but he also delves into the saying awful things to get a rise category
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VICTOR E. PANTHER

he's a much better comedic actor. Silverman's never delivered on that playing field.

I loved that burrito joke!

>(Ah Jesse,
>what happened to us?)

Apparently you decided the burrito joke was "stupid" and dropped it from your ACT!

and don't let these people tell you different...that girl has some 'cism problems in her head.

It ain't SHIT to Sarah Silverman.

Ain't nothing to her but shock value.

She ain't got shit to say to me, or for me to search my got-damn soul about.


Just...nothing to her but some limp-ass pinktoe race jokes.

She has NOTHING to say.


Meanwhile, I'm trying to keep my teenage BLACK MALE nephew on the right path. Blkfolx ain't got time to be dialoguing about these smug-ass NPR pussies, man--America tryin' to KILL me and my people, man.

Fuck her. No time. Bigger issues on the table.

And Kamau-whatzisname needs to fuckin' STAY FOCUSED. HELL WITH HER, man--go help your damn people. Take your eyes off these (certain and guilty) smartass whitefolx, man...all they doing is shakin' your balance and throwin' you off from where your anger REALLY needs to be. DAMN, nigga, get back on your fuckin' square.

Just in case you actually wanted to create constructive dialogue or something.

But, hell, I SAID what I wanted to say.

1. The observation about her being more of a "comedic actress" is right on the money.

2. I think it's always kinda pointless to criticize an artist for the racial make-up of their audience. Does the Roots playing in front of an audience of "Coffee Shop Chicks and White Dudes" lessen the value of their art?

3. I think she's very funny but she does need some new material.

>Meanwhile, I'm trying to keep my teenage BLACK MALE nephew on
>the right path. Blkfolx ain't got time to be dialoguing about
>these smug-ass NPR pussies, man--America tryin' to KILL me and
>my people, man.
>
>Fuck her. No time. Bigger issues on the table.
>
>And Kamau-whatzisname needs to fuckin' STAY FOCUSED. HELL WITH
>HER, man--go help your damn people. Take your eyes off these
>(certain and guilty) smartass whitefolx, man...all they doing
>is shakin' your balance and throwin' you off from where your
>anger REALLY needs to be. DAMN, nigga, get back on your
>fuckin' square.

Couldn't it be possible that THIS is my square? Couldn't be possible that in the ongoing struggle, no fuck that, in the ongoing WAR to end racism, that we all have different jobs and responsibilties and that anything that is done to help in any small way to repair the damage of half a millenium of oppression is a good thing? I believe Cornell West, himself, would agree with me on this point, pop culture critic that he (ocassionally) is. And don't get it twisted. It ain't like I sit on the Internet all day writing Sarah Silverman blogs. I wrote that two months ago. And I say again, just because you just read it yesterday, it doesn't mean that I was still thinking about it. (Until Nick dragged my back in Godfather 3 style.)

Good luck with your nephew. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

I believe all of this (ALL OF THIS!) begins and ends with respect.

Kamau Whatzisname

carlos mencia can do racial jokes and be funny.
bernie mac can do racial jokes and be funny.



when she does it
it just sounds lame.
or like shes trying too hard.

I think people gicving these shallow criticisms are just looking shallowly theirselves, because the truth is, if there were no sense of irony in anything she said, almost none of her "jokes" could be jokes. A lot of them would just be sexist or racist or anti-religious comments. They could not be jokes, not necassarily funny jokes but just jokes, without irony. I'm wondering if most of you critics think every single one of her fans are laughing because they actually believe all of these comments, which could not be jokes if you think that, because if that's truly what you all believe, I don't understand how you can ever appreciate any kind of irony or sarcasm. If you think every person who laughs at a ironic joke is only laughing because they truly believe in the joke's message, you're damn fools. And if you think it's specifically SIlverman and her fans, why? What makes them the people who are deeply believeing in what they laugh at?

They're not making shallow criticisms, they're pointing out that irony is a weak form of self-expression, which if anything takes more intelligence and honesty to realize than just saying, "It's ironic, leave it alone."

Honestly, I'm reminded of a song that's on "Fantastic Damage" by El-P. He tries to make fun of the lame misogyny that's so present in rap songs by making an over-the-top misogynistic song. I always have a private chuckle whenever I hear it because I think of how these guys, in trying to say that woman-hating is lame, can't do anything except hate women so much that it becomes ridiculous. They're incapable of making a song that is legitimately pro-woman and positive because they're still so trapped in the same mindset that they can't really think around it.

So that's the point -- irony and sarcasm are a weak person's tool of self-expression. If Sarah Silverman has nuanced and complicated ideas about race and race relations in the United States, the challenge is to make jokes about it without just repeating the same tired stuff. Instead, she just saysthe same tired stuff, only this time she adds, "But I'm doing it ironically to expose its failures!" Which isn't doing enough in the eyes of the people making critiques.

>...If Sarah Silverman has nuanced and
>complicated ideas about race and race relations in the United
>States, the challenge is to make jokes about it without just
>repeating the same tired stuff.

What if she's just doing it to be laughed at? What if there's no larger motivation than doing it so people laugh, some uncomfortably, at an idiot saying these horribly racist things?

Just because its shock value involving race people want to quantify and label it. The critics who praise her will often compare her, incorrectly and without merit, to Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor. Those of you like yourself who find it weak-minded and easy are just as incorrect, in my opinion, in assuming she's trying to achieve some kind of grandiose and lofty notions of breaking down social and cultural barriers through a set of ironic racist material. She's saying shit just to say shit to make people laugh and point at the dumb good-looking bitch on the stage with the foul mouth and dumb ideas.

EDITED TO SAY: I think you're criticizing her for things you're ascribing to her, not what is actually there.


Instead, she just saysthe
>same tired stuff, only this time she adds, "But I'm doing it
>ironically to expose its failures!"

When has she said this? Are you actually quoting her?

>What if she's just doing it to be laughed at? What if there's
>no larger motivation than doing it so people laugh, some
>uncomfortably, at an idiot saying these horribly racist
>things?

Well, yeah, that's fine. But then let's correctly compare her to the Andrew Dice Clay's of the world instead of the more lofty comparisons which have been placed on her. I mean, I think that's the real problem for most people in here is her reception more than her actual work. Her work is what it is, but some people are interpreting it as much more.

Are those people loving it disproportionately white hipsters? Is that worth commenting on? Most people I know who are really digging Sarah Silverman are white hipsters (although that could obviously be a more a problem with who I'm spending my time with than anything), and I always think our struggles with race are kind of weird. One of my first posts in this thread was more about that, so I won't repeat myself, but suffice to say I find the white hipster attitude toward race and racism "interesting."

>Just because its shock value involving race people want to
>quantify and label it. The critics who praise her will often
>compare her, incorrectly and without merit, to Lenny Bruce and
>Richard Pryor. Those of you like yourself who find it
>weak-minded and easy are just as incorrect, in my opinion, in
>assuming she's trying to achieve some kind of grandiose and
>lofty notions of breaking down social and cultural barriers
>through a set of ironic racist material. She's saying shit
>just to say shit to make people laugh and point at the dumb
>good-looking bitch on the stage with the foul mouth and dumb
>ideas.
>
>EDITED TO SAY: I think you're criticizing her for things
>you're ascribing to her, not what is actually there.

Fair enough, I guess I am critiquing its reception more than the actual work, but like I just said, does that reception merit some critique? I think it does.

I mean, I understand Dice Clay's joke, even though it went over millions of people's heads, but at the same time after a while he probably should have dropped it, because the irony was gone. So on the one hand I don't really have a problem with ADC's work, but I do have a problem with his reception. I'm not trying to say that Sarah Silverman is on that level (I don't think she is at all), I'm just trying to point out how it might be appropriate to focus on the response in contrast to the work itself. In this case I think the response is very telling.

(And yeah, I don't have any Silverman quotes, I'm just attributing those defenses made in this thread to her, because without them her work is kind of empty.)

>> Her work is what it is,
>but some people are interpreting it as much more.



Assuming there is no greater motivation, I think those are unjustified comparisons like I said above. But if I am to take your POV, I would agree with you that she's falling well shy of making any substantial or important "point". And those comparisons to the people who have come before, while technically MORE accurate, would become even MORE inappropriate and incorrect.



>
>Are those people loving it disproportionately white hipsters?
>Is that worth commenting on?

For me, not really.



Most people I know who are
>really digging Sarah Silverman are white hipsters (although
>that could obviously be a more a problem with who I'm spending
>my time with than anything), and I always think our struggles
>with race are kind of weird. One of my first posts in this
>thread was more about that, so I won't repeat myself, but
>suffice to say I find the white hipster attitude toward race
>and racism "interesting."

Forgive the brevity above. I'm not trying to come across as flippant or in any way discredit what you find of consequence, but I'm not really too concerned with holding an opinion on anything aside from the material and/or the gal herself. I didn't read your comment above but I'll go back and read it because you make yourself clear when you write.



>
>I mean, I understand Dice Clay's joke, even though it went
>over millions of people's heads, but at the same time after a
>while he probably should have dropped it, because the irony
>was gone. So on the one hand I don't really have a problem
>with ADC's work, but I do have a problem with his reception.

You know, I think he DID try to lose it and found out just what you said that the ultimate joke was on him. He couldn't aim any higher than the low expectations and low brow he defined so well. Not to say he had THAT much more to offer but I think he's a fine comic actor who was capable of a bigger and more varied career than he has/had.

But you know what?? I think if he really honestly wanted to fully escape the "Diceman" persona he could've. So maybe I'm wrong in thinking that he tried to lose it and wasn't allowed to.



>I'm not trying to say that Sarah Silverman is on that level (I
>don't think she is at all), I'm just trying to point out how
>it might be appropriate to focus on the response in contrast
>to the work itself. In this case I think the response is very
>telling.

If I'm understanding you correctly then I will disagree with you here. Not in the area of focus like I explained above, but in the opinion of her talent. I think she's surpassed ADC in talent. He was a better stand-up, and I stress "WAS" because his late 90s stuff is excreble, but she, to me, is a better actor. I think by default of their appearance she has more range. They're both un-ethnic Jews (Is that racist? If so I apologize.) who carry themselves as somewhat altered personas. He can be a greaser or a hood visually while a good looking gal like her can be extremely varied in her roles. While that has nothing to do with talent I think she does more IN the varied roles she has and thus is more talented of the two.


I'll say it here: I like Sarah Silverman. I have always had an affinity for her. She's nice to the eyes and can act. She has made me belly laugh with some of her material. I have yet to see "Jesus Is Magic" so perhaps I'll hate her with a passion very soon yet, but as of now I ride for her.



>
>(And yeah, I don't have any Silverman quotes, I'm just
>attributing those defenses made in this thread to her, because
>without them her work is kind of empty.)

Gotcha.

>Assuming there is no greater motivation, I think those are
>unjustified comparisons like I said above. But if I am to take
>your POV, I would agree with you that she's falling well shy
>of making any substantial or important "point". And those
>comparisons to the people who have come before, while
>technically MORE accurate, would become even MORE
>inappropriate and incorrect.

Okay. I think we both agree on what her stand-up / career / talent ultimately is, we just have different ideas about what her responsibilities are with regards to that.

>For me, not really.

^^^ hates white hipsters ^^^

(Although, really, who doesn't. Shit, the only people hipsters hate more than each other is themselves. I can't pretend like I know too much about this "black self-hate" thing I've heard about, but I feel more than comfortable commenting on white hipster self-hate, and it's a deep, nuanced, nasty, ugly, beastly thing. It goes deep, man.)

>Forgive the brevity above. I'm not trying to come across as
>flippant or in any way discredit what you find of consequence,
>but I'm not really too concerned with holding an opinion on
>anything aside from the material and/or the gal herself. I
>didn't read your comment above but I'll go back and read it
>because you make yourself clear when you write.

Oh yeah, no problem, no offense taken. Don't worry, cuz we both know you can't get past ten or so posts on OKP without building up pretty thick skin. So yeah, it's just a matter of what we're concerned with, the work or the response, and the response isn't so important to you. That's cool. And thanks for the compliment.

>But you know what?? I think if he really honestly wanted to
>fully escape the "Diceman" persona he could've. So maybe I'm
>wrong in thinking that he tried to lose it and wasn't allowed
>to.

When his audience noticeably changed from people who "got" it, to large groups of lonely, angry single men, I think he could have quit or come clean, but he chose to cash in instead. Cashing in isn't always bad, but when you're doing it at the expense of so many people like ADC was, it's disappointing.

>I'll say it here: I like Sarah Silverman. I have always had an
>affinity for her. She's nice to the eyes and can act. She has
>made me belly laugh with some of her material. I have yet to
>see "Jesus Is Magic" so perhaps I'll hate her with a passion
>very soon yet, but as of now I ride for her.

I like some of her stuff, the female oriented stuff in particular, because I really feel that PolarBearToeNail's explanation of her work is perfect in that regard, but when she crosses over into the real race heavy stuff she can misstep at times. Bignick's review of her work is more how I feel about it. And in the end I can honestly say it wouldn't matter that much to me, just some more shock humor, except for the response that she gets, which is overly positive, so that's why I'm harping on that. I'm just trying to understand what makes people build up these jokes, which I see as flat shock humor, to much more than they are. I think their motivations for doing that can be interesting and teach us something about the people around us.

"What if she's just doing it to be laughed at? What if there's no larger motivation than doing it so people laugh, some uncomfortably, at an idiot saying these horribly racist things? "

Then what the critics say is right. If you say all she is is a shock comic, fine. I think it isn't funny and I don't think she's talented. Anyone can do that. Other people can think she's funny but she shouldn't be compared with great comedians.

The issue starts with people saying she is like Lenny Bruce or Pryor and that she's ironic. If people admit she's just shocking then there's no discussion. People then just differ in their response to shock humor.

Then what the critics say is right.

I don’t understand this part. Which cirtics are you referring to?


If you say all she is is a shock comic, fine. I think it isn't funny and I don't think she's talented. Anyone can do that. Other people can think she's funny but she shouldn't be compared with great comedians.

I completely disagree with you and yet I totally agree with you. I think she’s talented and funny. I too think she shouldn’t be compared with great comedians.


The issue starts with people saying she is like Lenny Bruce or Pryor and that she's ironic. If people admit she's just shocking then there's no discussion. People then just differ in their response to shock humor.

THAT’S exactly what I was trying to say with my post you replied to. I’m of the mind she’s not trying to do anything bigger and therefore I won’t criticize her just because some people think she is, and that she’s succeeding at it to the levels of Bruce & Pryor. People obviously TOTALLY differ in their response to shock humor, which is what I think Silverman’s race material is. For some people race is a taboo subject for a white girl to shock with.


Exactly. Most of her "jokes" are that a pretty "open-minded" girl is saying crazy shit. THe only irony is that she knows better than to say these things but still says them. Very few of her jokes are "jokes". When she deals with feminine or Jewish issues she does a much better job at getting to the irony of it, but even then a lot of times she just says random shit like in her song where she sang "I love you like Jews love money." That's not funny. That's just shocking to hear her sing it. The only "irony" is that she and her audience know better than to say or think such things.

I couldn’t describe it better nor will I try. You and I agree, at least I agree with you, on the presentation and summarization of what it is, but we differ on our opinion of is it funny or not.


Here's another difference:
Sarah has a joke where she says something like "I was raped by a dentist which was bittersweet because I'm Jewish". It's dark comedy. She takes a stereotype and fucks with it. Do I think it's all that funny? Not really but I can appreciate the irony.

I don’t even get that one.

Her saying "I wouldn't mind being black but I like being pretty." is just not funny or ironic. What's funny? What's ironic? What's the joke? It's like if her previous joke was: I wanted to date this one guy, but he wasn't a dentist. How is she playing with the stereotype? What is she bringing to the table? What is ironic besides the fact that she should know better than to say that?

As for the rest of your post, it seems like you are acting like people saying she isn't funny is an indictment against people who think she is funny. Some people like shock humor. Other don't. It's fine. Doesn't mean you are bad or believe it. The issue here IMO is people saying that Silverman gets credit for being ironic or edgy when really most of what she is is little more than shock value.

After reading that joke and thinking a bit I had a brief idea that’s far-fetched and perhaps a cop-out but bear with me if you will. Her saying such terribly racist things straight faced like the “black girl/pretty” joke above in hopes of getting a laugh may not be “funny” but perhaps its not meant to be? We don’t only laugh at funny stuff. I’ve been in movie theaters when the most horrific violence suddenly and unexpectedly flashes on the big screen and it’s greeted with guffaws and loud laughter. So maybe it’s the shock humor shtick taken to brutally shocking lengths and she’s just figuring “laughter is laughter is laughter…”. I admit it’s a stretch…

If this was the NBA draft, I'd be Steven A. saying that she's overrated and you'd be Hubie Brown saying she is good at what she does and has upside potential.

"Her saying such terribly racist things straight faced like the “black girl/pretty” joke above in hopes of getting a laugh may not be “funny” but perhaps its not meant to be? We don’t only laugh at funny stuff. I’ve been in movie theaters when the most horrific violence suddenly and unexpectedly flashes on the big screen and it’s greeted with guffaws and loud laughter. So maybe it’s the shock humor shtick taken to brutally shocking lengths and she’s just figuring “laughter is laughter is laughter…”. I admit it’s a stretch…"

I think that's a lot of what it is. Shocking can be funny. Part of South Park's initial appeal was seeing little kid's laugh. People have been more interested in Bob Saget's stand-up now because it is blue and it is shocking to hear him talk like that (even though he was always like that, even before Full House). It's my opinion though that the difference is that shock is most of Silverman's appeal. It's too much. Some people ascribe "irony" to it when really most of it's only shocking.

>I think that's a lot of what it is. Shocking can be funny.
>Part of South Park's initial appeal was seeing little kid's
>laugh. People have been more interested in Bob Saget's
>stand-up now because it is blue and it is shocking to hear him
>talk like that (even though he was always like that, even
>before Full House). It's my opinion though that the difference
>is that shock is most of Silverman's appeal. It's too much.
>Some people ascribe "irony" to it when really most of it's
>only shocking.

Honestly, if there *is* one thing that I earnestly endeavor to change, it's the death of irony. Too many people are just completely trapped, only expressing themselves in ironic or sarcastic terms, and I really think it prevents them from building to bigger things, because they can never really express themselves. I mean, it has its place and all, but some people definitely get trapped and start drowning in it, unable to reach for anything bigger.

So yeah, I think irony is a cop-out a lot of the time, and people really just use it when they can't think of anything better to say.

>Honestly, I'm reminded of a song that's on "Fantastic Damage"
>by El-P. He tries to make fun of the lame misogyny that's so
>present in rap songs by making an over-the-top misogynistic
>song. I always have a private chuckle whenever I hear it
>because I think of how these guys, in trying to say that
>woman-hating is lame, can't do anything except hate women so
>much that it becomes ridiculous. They're incapable of making
>a song that is legitimately pro-woman and positive because
>they're still so trapped in the same mindset that they can't
>really think around it.
>
>So that's the point -- irony and sarcasm are a weak person's
>tool of self-expression. If Sarah Silverman has nuanced and
>complicated ideas about race and race relations in the United
>States, the challenge is to make jokes about it without just
>repeating the same tired stuff. Instead, she just saysthe
>same tired stuff, only this time she adds, "But I'm doing it
>ironically to expose its failures!" Which isn't doing enough
>in the eyes of the people making critiques.


The term "bridge the gap" springs to mind immediately.

"A lot of them would just be sexist or racist or anti-religious comments. They could not be jokes, not necassarily funny jokes but just jokes, without irony."

Exactly. Most of her "jokes" are that a pretty "open-minded" girl is saying crazy shit. THe only irony is that she knows better than to say these things but still says them. Very few of her jokes are "jokes". When she deals with feminine or Jewish issues she does a much better job at getting to the irony of it, but even then a lot of times she just says random shit like in her song where she sang "I love you like Jews love money." That's not funny. That's just shocking to hear her sing it. The only "irony" is that she and her audience know better than to say or think such things.

Here's another difference:
Sarah has a joke where she says something like "I was raped by a dentist which was bittersweet because I'm Jewish". It's dark comedy. She takes a stereotype and fucks with it. Do I think it's all that funny? Not really but I can appreciate the irony.

Her saying "I wouldn't mind being black but I like being pretty." is just not funny or ironic. What's funny? What's ironic? What's the joke? It's like if her previous joke was: I wanted to date this one guy, but he wasn't a dentist. How is she playing with the stereotype? What is she bringing to the table? What is ironic besides the fact that she should know better than to say that?

As for the rest of your post, it seems like you are acting like people saying she isn't funny is an indictment against people who think she is funny. Some people like shock humor. Other don't. It's fine. Doesn't mean you are bad or believe it. The issue here IMO is people saying that Silverman gets credit for being ironic or edgy when really most of what she is is little more than shock value.

I'm not a Boston fan at all, and I don't really care, but like-minded people need to build here on OKP instead of just tearing everyone down. Care to join my "No Nukes" campaign? I think it might really be going places soon.

I don't know if you can put everything back in the box once you open it. I also have to admit to like having it as a deterrent for now even though we should never use them. At the same time, I should follow your lead and be pushing something more important than canning Danny Ainge on my blog. I was working on a standup bit last night and kind of thought how silly that is. We're all in a celebrity obsessed world to keep us from focusing on the bigger issues out there.

And I agree. We need more building up than tearing down here on OKP. Some times you just have to agree to disagree.

I think this type of arm-chair cultural criticism is all part of the bigger culture that is always spiraling all over the place, but with some pushes and prods from every little participant can eventually lead somewhere, just like Kamauwhazisname said in one of his posts above this (quoting Cornell West, too! Now I know I'm fighting for good!) So seriously, I think just engage honestly and earnestly in discussions like this is, to a certain extent, building in a positive way.

Otherwise, you're right, I might be off with the nukes thing. I think I'm going to switch to "No Pre-Mixed Peanut Butter and Jelly Jars!" because those things really piss me off when I see them in the supermarket. How fucking lazy can you be? Not to mention the neopolitan-ization which will inevitably occur, as all the jelly goes in the first week and you're just stuck with some crappy peanut butter with a little jelly stuck to the side. Anyway, that shit needs to stop.

i think she realized early on in her career that she could get laughs by combining the shock value of a nice jewish girl saying racy things with an ironic twist. she does it with race, sex, etc. some of the race stuff she does is clever. some of it isn't. my biggest beef is hipster comics that she's partially responsible for spawning. yes, they're out there. Jasper Redd and i talk about it all the time. i was just bitching to Jesse about it when i was in Frisco. (hella!) there are A LOT of white comics down here in LA who think it's cool to say fucked up, racist shit because they're being "edgy."

anyway. Kamau, i figured since you blogged this, you were cool with people reading this. i hope this doesn't ruin your chances of being in Jesus is Magic II.

I really don't mind that you reposted it. I just woulda like to have known you were gonna do it so I could my "guns" loaded and put my armor on. I should really be sleeping in the armor anyway.

W. KaChic Le Freak

www.myspace.com/wkbonline

>i think she realized early on in her career that she could
>get laughs by combining the shock value of a nice jewish girl
>saying racy things with an ironic twist. she does it with
>race, sex, etc. some of the race stuff she does is clever.
>some of it isn't. my biggest beef is hipster comics that
>she's partially responsible for spawning. yes, they're out
>there. Jasper Redd and i talk about it all the time. i was
>just bitching to Jesse about it when i was in Frisco. (hella!)
>there are A LOT of white comics down here in LA who think it's
>cool to say fucked up, racist shit because they're being
>"edgy."

Racial. sexual and religious jokes have ALWAYS been the basis of her routine. It's not like she was a prop comic who all of a sudden decided to start saying "nigger".

I kinda agree with the imitators she's spawned but you find that in EVERY form of art. Eddie Murphy begat alot of the hacks on Def Comedy Jam. Radiohead begat Coldplay, Travis and other "sensetive" bands. And so on and so on.


>anyway. Kamau, i figured since you blogged this, you were cool
>with people reading this. i hope this doesn't ruin your
>chances of being in Jesus is Magic II.

she raw joe
i saw jesus is magic
in a threatre full of silent white folks
i laffed outloud a few times
its just comedy man
the bitch talked about jews driving german cars for gods sakes

>its just comedy man

we get that. doesn't mean that someone can't still be offended though.

nm

The standard of beauty is currently European. "European", by definition is starkly "not African". Their geographical positions (in the context of what we know about continental arrangements and climates and their effects on people's biological variables) attest to that fact further.

It looks like you were personally offended. Maybe that joke *is* for you. Usually when I feel that way, I know I've stepped onto my own shaky ground and I know must soon muster the courage to confront the issue. And usually when a comedian brings that out for me I listen even harder because it's likely common and it's likely unnecessary for me to be worried about it too much. So, I check.

the standard of beauty in European dominated socieities is considered to be European by the media and those who have their fucking heads in the sand.

"The standard of beauty is currently European. "European", by definition is starkly "not African". Their geographical positions (in the context of what we know about continental arrangements and climates and their effects on people's biological variables) attest to that fact further.

It looks like you were personally offended. Maybe that joke *is* for you. Usually when I feel that way, I know I've stepped onto my own shaky ground and I know must soon muster the courage to confront the issue. And usually when a comedian brings that out for me I listen even harder because it's likely common and it's likely unnecessary for me to be worried about it too much. So, I check."

If you read this as someone mocking the liberal Silverman fans and their explanations of why what she says isn't racist, its as funny as anything Silverman's said.

i thuoght she was hilarious at first...

but as time went on and i noted that while she is particularly vicious in nature of her jokes against other races,her jew jokes tend to be relatively light hearted and nowhere near as insulting. jews love money, haha... mexicans are filthy....what? big divide there, right?

its hard not to believe that this is her way of being able to get away with some things she may actually think but isnt ab le to say, so masking it as comedy and building a career on it is the way to go.

if you ask me, she's still remarkably funny, and i am a big supporter of everyone being an equal oppurtunity target..... but when everyone else gets told they are "ugly" and "filthy", she needs to step up the insulting tone of jews- r -*gasp!* tone down her material against everyon eelse. basicaly i would just preffer to see greater blanace one way or the other.

She has material about her grandmother and the holocaust that's about as dark as anything that could possibly be said onstage.

how do yawl think sarah silverman's act would do in front of an audience filled with minorities? cuz to stand in front of the very people you make fun of is the true test of the comedy.

I think she would do poorly if they were unsophisticated, comedy-wise. But I think she'd also do bad in front of an unsophisticated white audience. You have to either know what she's up to, or pick it up quickly.

there are plenty of people who are sophisticated comedically who just don't like what she does.

i'm sorry

a holocaust joke, making fun of her own history, is one thing

but she isnt taking shots at jews in her holocaust, "nazis are cute when their little, but thats it" jokes.... she is poking fun at a historical event

she jokes about minorities on a personal level... thereis a very real difference here.

She's got more jokes that can be considered offensive to Jews than probably any other group.

the first time you hear it you think "this is offensive and NOT FUNNY"

the 98th time you hear it you think "this is shtick and its still NOT FUNNY"

from the L.A. Weekly:

>Don’t hate Sarah Silverman because she’s beautiful. Hate her because she’s beautiful and extremely funny. Jaw-droppingly, did-she-just-say-what-I-think-she-said? funny. Like this: “I was raped by a doctor...which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.”

When you see her around town at Largo or the Improv or Upright Citizens Brigade, it’s like Springsteen showing up at an open mike. She blows everyone else away. “I hate it when comics are born into the alternative scene and adopt this bitterness and superiority toward mainstream clubs even though they have no experience themselves to lead them to these conclusions — snarky comics who never even worked the road but think they are above it all. That’s so gay.”

Her observations are delivered with an invisible wink that assumes you know what she really means. In other words, she always plays to the highest common denominator, a rarity in the “what’s up with that?” world of standup comedy. It’s also the the type of dangerous humor that has landed her in a vat of hot water on occasion. (Try Googling “chinks” and “Sarah Silverman.”)

“I can’t say shit just so it will make people mad. I have no desire to do that. It’s just that sometimes shit I think is funny bums some people out.”

Jokes about racism are not racist, but they depend on the audience seeing a larger context of the point she’s making. And having to explain what makes a joke funny...well, that just makes it not funny.

Lately, more and more people are getting the joke. Silverman’s one-woman film Jesus is Magic was an indie hit, and now she’s getting her own show on Comedy Central called The Sarah Silverman Program, set to debut this summer or fall. She plays a character named Sarah Silverman. “It’s ridiculous. I think that may be the most accurate description.” And working for a corporation like Comedy Central? “On the one hand, they are the man, but on the other, their notes have been 85 percent really, really, helpful, I have to say.”

And she’s not above dispensing her own advice. To young, upcoming comics (Silverman started doing standup in her teens), she advises, “Just get up as much as you can and hang with your comic peers and make each other laugh. It should be what you want to do anyway. Also, I can’t stress this enough — lots of fucking and sucking.”

So, if Kathy Griffin is queen of the D-list, what list does Sarah Silverman rule? “I’m on another D-list, but it stands for diarrhea. Sorry, it’s been a long day. They’re not all gems. Diarrhea is in my bag of tricks. It’s a diarrhea crutch. A crutch literally made of human diarrhea.”

Now that she has her own show, which she co-produces, will she turn into another Roseanne and fire her writers? “Yes. Definitely.” But is she poised to become America’s next sweetheart? “Um, did I mention I’m Jewish?”
________________________________________________________________________________________
Hey there
Lay there
Won't you take me home?
I'll write your name in a song

When you see her around town at Largo or the Improv or Upright Citizens Brigade, it’s like Springsteen showing up at an open mike. She blows everyone else away. “I hate it when comics are born into the alternative scene and adopt this bitterness and superiority toward mainstream clubs even though they have no experience themselves to lead them to these conclusions — snarky comics who never even worked the road but think they are above it all. That’s so gay.”


For someone so supposedly openminded to still be using gay as a negative (especially someone who lives in Hollywood) is hypocritical IMO. Because you can't tell me that there was some irony in her using it as a derogatory term.

She'll be a conservative in ten years.

and it really doesn't make her funny. Sorry.

like a normal person who is trying to be funny but has no idea what they're doing.
===========================================
-Me

<----What OKP is listening to this week.

because that's just wrong.

you're not.

nobody debated whether murphy, pryor,
or george carlin were funny, even though
they all did really fucked up, sometimes
even nasty humor.

you'd be laughing your ass off, thinking
'damn, that's fucked up.'

if you're thinking 'damn that's fucked up,
and maybe racist too' and are like..not
laughing?

shit ain't funny.

even lesser comedians like c.rock or
chappelle - nobody had to debate if
those cats were funny.

funny is instantly recongnizable, and
generally not up for debate.

and a 'genius' comedian cannot be
concocted for long. they tried to do
that with stephen wright and dennis
miller. both cats are funny, but the
true geniuses? hip la writers who sip
wheatgrass and do yoga cannot concoct
them for the masses.

go to biloxi mississippi and they'll
tell you pryor is a genius, just like
folks in tokyo and bamas in chile.

this chick? i'm doubting, hard.

::: goes to further investigate
ol' girl in case i'm wrong :::


<--- NEW ART!! NEW ART!!! NEW ART!!!
* all comments made about women apply to the formerly single TOREZ only