Spike Lee's She Hate Me is the most undeservedly slandered filme since, uh...the LAST Spike Lee film....

Give me any criticism you got and I'll show you where youre wrong....

ANY!

All the criticism I've read is absolute bull...and the valid ctriricism I have read is minute...

Spike Lee is a fucking genius and his films keep getting better and better....

Come on, sucka! (c)Della Resse in Harlem Nights...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

so you pretty much know everything i'm gonna say...

youre kinda exempt by default...

but if you got 'em, I'll take 'em....no homo....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

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----------------------------

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complete and total garbage.
and i'm a huge Spike fan.

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

my netflix mini-review sums it up.
"A complete and total misfire."

everything a good movie is supposed to be..it wasn't. the story was boring and convoluted. the script was horrible. the acters seemed to be on totally different pages. it was annoyingly preachy. and it was way too long.

you're still giving me opinions with no support....

"the script was horrible"....what was horrible about it?

"the acters(sic) were on totally different pages..." how so?

come again?

take off the fabric and let's talk abt this movie f'real.....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>you're still giving me opinions with no support....
>"the script was horrible"....what was horrible about it?
>"the acters(sic) were on totally different pages..." how so?
>come again?
>take off the fabric and let's talk abt this movie f'real.....

what are you talking about? you asked why i thought the movie was bad. and i told you. i'm not going to go through the She Hate Me script line by line and explain to you why the writing was bad.

the movie sucks. everyone with eyes knows why.

.

No nudity from Monica Bellucci or Dania Ramirez

We wuz robbed

Besides that, the 2 different plot lines didnt merge 2gether very well. The score didnt fit the scenes very well on several occasions & it was WAY 2 long.

Wrap that shit up Lee!

>Wrap that shit up Lee!

yo. the sign is real simple, Lee. it says wrap. it. up. you better wrap that shit up, Lee.

his films dont tend to be short....

and give me an example of the plot(ther was only one)failed to merge....


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>his films dont tend to be short....

And I dont mind when they're good

>and give me an example of the plot(ther was only one)failed to
>merge....

Only 1!?!?! You're kidding right? Or did you miss the whole whistle blowing thing. Either that or you missed all the lesbians being impregnated. 2 completely different subject matters.

there is a reason why he would agree to such an arrangement....

Jack is destitute....his assets have been frozen....no one will hire him...

why?

cuz he blew the whistle on a large corporation and they ruined him in retaliation....

what's hard to comprehend about that?


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>there is a reason why he would agree to such an
>arrangement....
>
>Jack is destitute....his assets have been frozen....no one
>will hire him...
>
>why?
>
>cuz he blew the whistle on a large corporation and they ruined
>him in retaliation....
>
>what's hard to comprehend about that?


The movie wasn't great, but wasn't bad at all. I believe heads here had a bad opiuion on the film before even watching it.

Cuz it's not handled well. It pops up @ the start. Then we see some flashbacks of Watergate. Then we have a big hearing. In between all of this we've got something else goin on entirely different.

>there is a reason why he would agree to such an
>arrangement....
>
>Jack is destitute....his assets have been frozen....no one
>will hire him...
>
>why?
>
>cuz he blew the whistle on a large corporation and they ruined
>him in retaliation....
>
>what's hard to comprehend about that?

Nothing. But apparently its hard for you 2 comprehend that I (& many others) dont feel that it was handled very well. It just pops up @ random throughout the film & it comes off very preachy.

the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all spike hates women)

the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how interesting would the story of the security guard at watergate have been? Very)

the ridiculous representation of lesbians (either gorgeous, rich women, or butch, manly, rich women), and the idea that so many of them would go for this, and the idea that all lesbians really like sex with men

I'll have to watch it again and get back to you with more, it's been a while

>the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all
>spike hates women)

what was wrong with the ending? and how that prove misogyny?

Meanwhile every ones love Malena and Irreversible....okay, player...


>the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how interesting
>would the story of the security guard at watergate have been?
>Very)

why does a storyline of a film have to be monolithic?

>
>the ridiculous representation of lesbians (either gorgeous,
>rich women, or butch, manly, rich women), and the idea that so
>many of them would go for this, and the idea that all lesbians
>really like sex with men

how familiar are you with lesbians and people of alternate sexuality? judging from the criticism Ive heard about the representation of lesbians,the people who are complaining dont know much about lesbians...it sure seems like you dont...





The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>>the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all
>>spike hates women)
>
>what was wrong with the ending? and how that prove misogyny?

cause these women agree to have a 3 way relationship (the ultimate male fantasy)

>Meanwhile every ones love Malena and Irreversible....okay,
>player...

Irreversible was about how horrible the rape was, I don't really see the relation


>>the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how
>interesting
>>would the story of the security guard at watergate have
>been?
>>Very)
>
>why does a storyline of a film have to be monolithic?

it doesn't, it just has to work, and in she hate me it certainly did not

>>the ridiculous representation of lesbians (either gorgeous,
>>rich women, or butch, manly, rich women), and the idea that
>so
>>many of them would go for this, and the idea that all
>lesbians
>>really like sex with men
>
>how familiar are you with lesbians and people of alternate
>sexuality? judging from the criticism Ive heard about the
>representation of lesbians,the people who are complaining dont
>know much about lesbians...it sure seems like you dont...

I was raised by lesbians, lol, my mom worked in the women studies department at the local college so I was constantly being babysat by lesbians

shit I live in portland oregon, there's a lesbian everywhere you turn

I can't believe I'm trying to prove my lesbian understanding cred online

>>>the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all
>>>spike hates women)
>>
>>what was wrong with the ending? and how that prove misogyny?
>
>cause these women agree to have a 3 way relationship (the
>ultimate male fantasy)

I took that more as Spike's message that a father should be in his kid's life. Of course he still had dozens of other kids that he wasnt gonna have an active part in the lives of but

>>Meanwhile every ones love Malena and Irreversible....okay,
>>player...
>
>Irreversible was about how horrible the rape was, I don't
>really see the relation

Yeah you're not the only one

>>>the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how
>>interesting
>>>would the story of the security guard at watergate have
>>been?
>>>Very)
>>
>>why does a storyline of a film have to be monolithic?
>
>it doesn't, it just has to work, and in she hate me it
>certainly did not

And Bingo was his name-o

you should KNOW tha all lesbians arent the same and not all lesbians are anti-dick or even that every woman who's had sex with a another woman or in a relationship with another woman isnt necessary a lesbian....

Julie Cypher, anyone?

and dont you think that Tristan Toarmino would have corrected whatever issues there were in the portrayal of lesbians?

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

what I'm saying is spike did the 2 extremes

male fantasy lesbians, and butch lasbians

he was doing what he's usually one of the best about avoiding

portraying stereotypes instead of charachters

Oy vey!

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

Why did you like it?

I didn't care about the characters, the plot was all over the place, and the ending was just silly. Not only was this movie preachy, but it was ridiculous as well so it was like watching someone just spout off passionately on some nonsense. Passionate nonsense. That's how I'd describe it.

The plot was refreshingly complex and original....

The acting was excellent...

Lee's visuals are always the shit...

the humor and drama meshed well...

I cared about the chracters...

the movie held my attention...

it was thought provoking...sparked conversation afterwards...

the music was good...

it was funny...

the cast was well chosen...

the narrative flowed smoothly...

the surreal parts were imaginative and entertaining....

it was socially relevant...


I like Lee's style as a filmmaker....the biggest problem with criticism of Spike Lee films is that ppl continually choose to IGNORE what KIND of filmmaker Spike is. He is NOT a mainstream director....Do you understand that?

Lee's shit is always going to be off-kilter, left of center....he does not make popcorn movies....you have John Singleton for that...

you accept David Lynch, you accept Taratino, you accept The Coen Brothers, you accept Jim Jarmusch,...shit, you even accept fucking Vincent Gallo....but Spike's shit is too out for y'all???....

GTFOOHWTBS....(and AF, dont say that those guys are BETTER directors...)

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>GTFOOHWTBS....(and AF, dont say that those guys are BETTER
>directors...)

well, i don't want to say that they're "better" per se... Spike has his own style that works well for him, and it's been proven that nobody has been successful in biting that style

but Spike's "style" also has so many inherent flaws that being a Spike fan is to be placed in a position of constantly apologizing for his excesses and weird tics ("well... you know he never really ends his movies well." "it's Spike, yo... all his films are too long." "he has that character in all his films.")

so far, it's worked well enough that we've been able to look at some of these qualities as "idiosyncracies" rather than as outright flaws, but with She Hate Me, he went too far with it... some of the bad storytelling is inexcusable.

we've talked enough times about the "show don't tell" thing, but i'll just mention it here in case someone else wants to pick it up: why did Spike choose to show AND tell?

if Spike is a bad filmmaker, then all of those guys are bad filmamakers becuase they do the same shit if not more, to even higher degrees...

but where Spike gets panned, these mf's get praised.....

and the "Show, dont tell" argument doesnt hold water here....


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

and the "show and tell" argument is WAY valid...

I want some of that psychedelic kool-aid you're sipping on.

I don't even know if I would call David Lynch a better director than Spike. Lynch could NEVER make as impactful a film as "X" (although I could have done without the schoolchildren ending). Heck, sometimes Lynch is barely coherent.

none of them.

>you accept David Lynch, you accept Taratino, you accept The
>Coen Brothers, you accept Jim Jarmusch,...shit, you even
>accept fucking Vincent Gallo....but Spike's shit is too out
>for y'all???....
>
>GTFOOHWTBS....(and AF, dont say that those guys are BETTER
>directors...)

How is criticising this movie criticising Spike Lee?

Personally I consider Spike to most likely be the greatest filmmaker of the last 20 years, and no question he's in the top 2. That doesn't mean that great filmmakers don't make crappy movies from time to time.

She Hate Me was a bad movie, for all the reasons listed in this thread. Did Spike have some good ideas? Sure. Did he execute those ideas to the fullest of his abilities? HELL NO. Spike can do better than this shit.

And frankly any movie with an animated sperm with the lead actors face on it, getting tired as it swims, has an awful lot of making up to do for that alone. This film is not good, sorry.

the goal was to impregnante these women...

these women are desperate to conceive....

the method is not foolproof....only one sperm cell can do the job....

and....dude is whooped...

the animated sperm conveys all of this in a lighthearted manner....

lighten up, have a sense of humor....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&id=kurlyswirl

I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

or killing a room full of people...that makes total sense, right?


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
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I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

if you wouldnt let those thing I mentioned strop you from enjoying a film, then why would the animated sprem color your decision, whether you thought it was stupid or not....its a trivial thing to get hung up on when judging the merit of the film...


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

It wasn't like it was a one time thing, so I wouldn't call it "trivial." Besides, there was a whole lot more to hate about the film than that. The animated sperm was one of my lesser issues with it.

And yeah, of course finding an aspect of a film stupid is going to affect my enjoyment and will factor into my judgment. How can it not? Doesn't mean I'm going to completely write it off if the rest of it is good.

>if you wouldnt let those thing I mentioned strop you from
>enjoying a film, then why would the animated sprem color your
>decision, whether you thought it was stupid or not....its a
>trivial thing to get hung up on when judging the merit of the
>film...



~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

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I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

This movie doesn't even have one...It's like Spike couldn't make up his mind. And the others are right. Just because this movie sucked doesn't mean folx think Spike sucks.

>This movie doesn't even have one...It's like Spike couldn't
>make up his mind. And the others are right. Just because
>this movie sucked doesn't mean folx think Spike sucks.

Exactly. But the peeps that ride 4 it like 2 fall back on that excuse once they run out of reasons on how the rest of us some how missed out on this excellent masterpiece.

If DeNiro and Scorcese had done Clockers as originally planned, it wouldn't have been half the movie that Lee made.

I disagree with a lot of your feelings which is just the nature of the film. It's subjective. I thought the plot was convoluted and silly. The dramatic moments were funnier than the silly moments. John Turturro was horribly miscast as Monica Bellucci's father. They look like brother and sister.

Like most directors, I think Spike has fallen off in his later years. I love his early stuff but I think he'd be better off taking scripts from other writers (like he did with Clockers and Get on the bus) and adding his spin to them.

why?

I just thought it could have been a lot more than it was. It would have been better if it had focused on Jesus and not spent so much time with Denzel. I think the trials of a college athlete can be very interesting (I still want to write an hour long drama about it) but Spike didn't do it justice.

The movie is about fathers and sons not fucking basketball or college athletics. It deals with what happens to the father and the son when the father leaves the house.

You had your own agenda and got mad when Spike didn't make the movie you want to make.


Why have Denzel in a movie and focus the movie on a non actor?

"You had your own agenda and got mad when Spike didn't make the movie you want to make."

The movie Spike made wasn't good IMO. I was happy he didn't make the movie I wanted because I can still do my idea. (Unlike the film version of Friday Night Lights which was always my dream and which was not fully realized IMO by Peter Berg) I've gone in a lot of time expecting one thing, not getting it but being pleasantly surprised with what I saw. He Got Game was disappointing on its own merits. My boredom became annoyance because I thought there was a better movie in there waiting to come out.

I love how if you don't like a Spike Lee movie, you suddenly get attacked for it. Like the man is bigger than opinions, everyone should love his shit.

>The plot was refreshingly complex and original....

Agreed. Minus refreshingly.

>The acting was excellent...

Decent 4 the most part. No one stood out.

>Lee's visuals are always the shit...

Even the dog talking in Summer of Sam?

>the humor and drama meshed well...

At times

>I cared about the chracters...

I did as well

>the movie held my attention...

The women in it held mine

>it was thought provoking...sparked conversation afterwards...

Like what in the hell was Spike thinking?

>the music was good...

At times but way 2 many scenes had unecessary music in it that didnt fit well.

>it was funny...

Was it supposed 2 be?

>the cast was well chosen...

Spike always gets the right peeps 4 the right roles

>the narrative flowed smoothly...

No

>the surreal parts were imaginative and entertaining....
>it was socially relevant...

Ok

>I like Lee's style as a filmmaker....the biggest problem with
>criticism of Spike Lee films is that ppl continually choose to
>IGNORE what KIND of filmmaker Spike is.

Disagree

He is NOT a mainstream
>director....Do you understand that?

Anyone that watches his films understands that.

>Lee's shit is always going to be off-kilter, left of
>center....he does not make popcorn movies....you have John
>Singleton for that...

Nothings wrong w/ non popcorn movies. It's just nice when they focus on a certain topic & stick w/ it. Or if they have subplots they're somewhat related 2 the main topic.

>you accept David Lynch

I dont

, you accept Taratino, you accept The
>Coen Brothers,

you accept Jim Jarmusch,

He's starting 2 fall off

...shit, you even
>accept fucking Vincent Gallo....but Spike's shit is too out
>for y'all???....

You're generalizing this based on 1 movie? Bad idea.

he had one sex scene after another over and over and then cut back to the corporation story which didn't even take up the most screen time. That's not intercutting...I'm wondering what the fuck the script looks like because you never are quite sure of spaces of time in between shit happening.

The acting was terrible, but I blame that on the director as well. The script sucked. Why was I listening to speeches about ovulation?

The music was.....forgettable. I aint finna be humming a bar of that nonsense any time soon....cause I can't remember it.

The movie bitededed in so many more ways than one, and you know shit about filmmaking. You're so busy saying "you don't know about lesbians" this and that, and you're speaking about all these terms and things that this film clearly does not have to anyone who has studied it. I'm a novice and even *I* blatantly see what's fucked up.

And I love Spike Lee. And there were obviously some good ideas Spike had that I *wanted* to work in the film, but they obviously just didn't.

He can do better.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
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I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

>Spike Lee's She Hate Me is the most undeservedly slandered
>filme since, uh...the LAST Spike Lee film....
>
>Give me any criticism you got and I'll show you where youre
>wrong....
>
>ANY!
>
>All the criticism I've read is absolute bull...and the valid
>ctriricism I have read is minute...
>
>Spike Lee is a fucking genius and his films keep getting
>better and better....

I've been saying this! Missed this in NYC because it played for less than 3 weeks. Caught it on DVD, very interesting film, and considering it's length, it's NEVER boring. I thought the sperm with Mackie's face was kinda overdone, but whatever, a small gripe in a good (3.5) film. Criminally overlooked, underrated, and hated on by people who never gave the film a fair shake from the start. Oh, and it's one of Blanchard's best scores, too.

Spike couldn't pick a story and stick to telling it, then couldn't even wrap up the two stories he tried to tell. Of course, his problems with ending movies isn't anything new... but either you do the Enron allegory or you do the lesbian sex farce. Either, or. Not both.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

could you not follow thwe story....

lemme recap.

Jack works at big corrupt corporation.

Jack gets some heavy dirt on coproration.

Jack blows the whisle.

Jack gets not only fired, but ruined professionally and financially in retaliation.

Jack is destitute.

Jack's ex-fiancee is bisexual, something she found out for sure while engaged to Jack.

She wants to have a child, so does her female partner.

She wants Jack to impregnante them both.

She knows Jack is down and out...lessening his resistance to an offer sweetened by cash.

The desire of gay people to raise children has increased by leaps and bounds. Fatima(Jack's ex)knows a few lesbian women who would like to bear their own children.

They are all willing to pay Jack to impregnante them.

Fatima sets up shop.

What so hard to understand abt that?



The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

if you it had ended with "Fatima sets up shop. complications ensue" that would have been fine by me.

but the way the whole corporate intrigue storyline just pops up again after being completely thrown to the wayside for what felt like 3 hours... i felt like i had been abruptly shunted into a different films.

and then you have characters who exist for no reason other than to make a point and speechify... John Turturro's character leaps to mind first. and let's not even get into the drug-addled casting choice that would put him in the role of Bellucci's dad.

and Bellucci's character was another strange digression. (did Spike receive French funding to finish this film? that's the only reason i can think of for La Bellucci and Jamel Debbouze being so awkwardlt crowbarred into the film)

And I agree, it was a bad choice.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

i mean, obviously Turturro in that role doesn't make sense under ANY circumstances, but i'm at least glad that the decision was driven by desperation rather than, ah... nepotism?

you expected it to just go away?

the Mafioso thing worked for me....becuase this is clearly a "Murphy's Law" kind of experience he's having...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>if you it had ended with "Fatima sets up shop. complications
>ensue" that would have been fine by me.
>
>but the way the whole corporate intrigue storyline just pops
>up again after being completely thrown to the wayside for what
>felt like 3 hours... i felt like i had been abruptly shunted
>into a different films.
>
>and then you have characters who exist for no reason other
>than to make a point and speechify... John Turturro's
>character leaps to mind first. and let's not even get into the
>drug-addled casting choice that would put him in the role of
>Bellucci's dad.
>
>and Bellucci's character was another strange digression. (did
>Spike receive French funding to finish this film? that's the
>only reason i can think of for La Bellucci and Jamel Debbouze
>being so awkwardlt crowbarred into the film)

Bellucci is Italian. I'll see just about anything she's in & I'm sure I'm not the only one. That might've been the reason she was selected. Jamel Debbouze is credited as a producer.

And French people love her the same way you described.

I haven't seen this yet, and I like her, but it's possible for actors that I like to be crowbarred oddly into a film.

i believe she lives in France, is (was?) married to another French star and she acts mostly in French films

Jamel Debbouze is credited as a producer? for real? damn... i wonder how that came about. i still think it was just to make the film more marketable in Europe because they realized that it wasn't gonna do shit in America.

>i believe she lives in France, is (was?) married to another
>French star

Yeah Vincent Cassel. Lucky muthafucka.

and she acts mostly in French films

There about 2 star in another French movie together. Hopefully its better than Irrevesable.

>Jamel Debbouze is credited as a producer? for real?

So sez IMDB

damn... i
>wonder how that came about. i still think it was just to make
>the film more marketable in Europe because they realized that
>it wasn't gonna do shit in America.

Wouldnt doubt it.

guess they were just rumors since i haven't heard any follow-up, and they just had a kid anyway

what's the new movie they're doing together? a sequel to Secret Agents?

>what's the new movie they're doing together? a sequel to
>Secret Agents?

Hadnt heard about Secret Agents. Did you see it? Any good?

The new one they're doing is this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450843/

I've been trying 2 watch a trailer 4 that & the Agents one but no luck. They both link 2 French sites & I cant find a trailer anywhere.

And while I'm post jacking you (& anyone else) should check out the storyboards on her next project that she's doing w/ Clive Owen & Paul Giamatti. It looks & sounds insane.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0465602/

Storyboards

http://www.latinoreview.com/scriptreviews/shootemup/promoreel/index.html

Either you make a movie that is an allegory for the business scandals of our time, or you make a fantasy fuck movie. What you don't do is mix metaphors, write ridiculous dialogue and scenes, include sidebars featuring guys dancing around in Presidential masks for three minutes, include a fantasy sequence involving John Henry's face on sperm, a half-ass trial sequence, then tie it all up with John settling down with the two women in the end and say, taa-daa. What?

She Hate Me was 2 hours and 18 minutes of a mess. Period, point blank. You can list all the scenes you like, but it was still a shitty, shitty movie, and a major letdown from Spike.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

you "CANT" do these things in a film...

if thats the case then you shouldnt be watching Spike Lee films...

give me an example of a a good Spike Lee film, then...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

Do The Right Thing
School Daze
Clockers
She's Gotta Have It
Mo Betta Blues
Malcolm X
Crooklyn
Get on the Bus
4 Little Girls (documentary)
25th Hour
A Huey P. Newton Story (stage production)
John Leguizamo's Freak (stage production)
The Original Kings of Comedy (documentary)
He Got Game

Any more questions?

btw, the other time Spike tried the "two-story" approach -- and failed -- was Jungle Fever. He should have learned his lesson then.

And you should really stop with the "y'all don't like 'She Hate Me' so you must hate Spike Lee" angle.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

>Do The Right Thing....the happenings of a neighborhood on the hottest day of the year/racial tension

>School Daze...the class struggle betwen the Jigaboos and the Wannabes/the relationship between Dap and Rachel/the relationship between Julian and Jane/Half-Pints attempt to go over AND lose his vriginity/the SOiuth African divestment issue

>Clockers...saw this film once...dont remember much, didnt like it...

>She's Gotta Have It

>Mo Betta Blues...the relationship between Bleek and his women/the sruggle btween Bleek and Shadoe/the struggle with club management/Giant being a liabililty to Bleek and the band/Bleek hiding behind music as a way to dodge his emotional shortcomings...

>Malcolm X....Malcolm rise in the crime world/relationship between Malcolm and Archie/Malcolm's awakening/Malcolm rise to prominence/Malcolm betrayal/Malcolm's second Awakening/Malcolm's assassination

>Crooklyn....ssam as Clockers

>Get on the Bus....too many to get into here...

>25th Hour....last day of freedom/who set Monty up?/Naturelle and Monty/Monty and his friends/Hoffman and Paquin/NYC after 911?/where does Monty go from here?

I could do the rest of the list but come on, man...really...

>>Do The Right Thing....the happenings of a neighborhood on
>the hottest day of the year/racial tension

That was ONE story with many characters. There is a difference.

>>School Daze...the class struggle betwen the Jigaboos and the
>Wannabes/the relationship between Dap and Rachel/the
>relationship between Julian and Jane/Half-Pints attempt to go
>over AND lose his vriginity/the SOiuth African divestment
>issue

Again, ONE story with many characters.


>>Clockers...saw this film once...dont remember much, didnt
>like it...

Of course not. That's one of his best movies. Adapted from a novel, by the way, which was ONE story with many characters.

>>She's Gotta Have It

I'll get this one. It's about an African-American woman's desire to live her life as she pleases and express herself sexually. Again, ONE story with several characters, made up of several events, which add up to make THAT PARTICULAR story.

>>Mo Betta Blues...the relationship between Bleek and his
>women/the sruggle btween Bleek and Shadoe/the struggle with
>club management/Giant being a liabililty to Bleek and the
>band/Bleek hiding behind music as a way to dodge his emotional
>shortcomings...

Again, ONE story. There wasn't a subplot about a conspiracy to snuff jazz musicians. There wasn't a sidebar about the evil nature of the music business. It was ONE story about a jazz musician. ONE story.


>>Malcolm X....Malcolm rise in the crime world/relationship
>between Malcolm and Archie/Malcolm's awakening/Malcolm rise to
>prominence/Malcolm betrayal/Malcolm's second
>Awakening/Malcolm's assassination

Again, ONE story. What you're listing is many EVENTS, the PLOT of which makes ONE STORY.

>>Crooklyn....ssam as Clockers

ONE story about the only girl in a family.


>>Get on the Bus....too many to get into here...

Again, the STORY was about these men and their journey to the Million Man March. Many characters, many issues, but ONE story.

>>25th Hour....last day of freedom/who set Monty up?/Naturelle
>and Monty/Monty and his friends/Hoffman and Paquin/NYC after
>911?/where does Monty go from here?

All PLOT, which is different than STORY.

Now, as for the two you conveniently ignored:

Jungle Fever

A story about a successful black man who has an affair with a white woman. And also the story of how he deals with a crackhead brother. See? Those are two different stories.

FAILURE.


She Hate Me

A story about a whistleblower who loses his job and resorts to impregnating lesbians. Again, two different stories. Not two different PLOTS, two different stories. Get it?

FAILURE.

The STORIES in She Hate Me were weak. Nothing you can write, or cite, is going to change anyone's mind here. You might as well throw in the towel.
________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

She Hate Me has only one plot.

Make up your mind....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

I didn't like She Hate Me but I didn't even understand that plot/story post.

It really isn't.

Plot and Story are two different things. It's not a foreign language, guys.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

Many people consider plot and story synonymous so it becomes confusing. While some say Subplot, others say B-Story. There's no real single defining language for film.

The way I see it, She Hate Me has a single narrative thread: A young man struggling to survive in the world while keeping his moral code. This is the plot of the movie. Can Jack do the right thing?

The problem wasn't that this thread diverged into multiple stories, the problem (for me) was that they weren't connected and nothing in one story was really dependant on the outcome of the other. However, people who like the film don't care about that. They are just along for the ride and don't really care if the story from Act 1 disappears for most of Act 2, only to reappear in Act 3 even though its reappearance is not motivated by anything that happened in Act 2. They are following the story/plot/thread of will Jack do the right thing? or Can Jack accept the decisions he's made? There is one story: this guy's life is crazy, what's going to happen next?

If you don't find his life compelling (as I didn't) then this movie sucks because then there is no driving force. (A Thin Red Line is also like this: if you don't get into the different stories, there's nothing really to keep you tuned in. I love that film but again can see why people would disagree) I would still say that She Hate Me is a poorly conceived film however I can't tell people that it doesn't work because film is completely subjective.

people's problem was that it was two movies awardly crammed into one. What you just wrote there is the first act setting up a movie about a guy whose life falls apart but he then decides to make money impregnating women. We have the inciting action, and he gets into the main action of the movie (knicking up lesbians) from which the hijinks/complications ensue.

But in She Hate Me, that was like half of the film. And then the second half went in a completely different direction. The movie didn't work for me and was poorly conceived (no pun intended). I didn't find it compelling at all which made the mish-mashed plot lines all the more tedious.

Fatima(Jack's ex)knows a few lesbian women
>who would like to bear their own children.

A few? She had a damn caravan. & they all had the cash. Pretty unrealistic.

not possible, huh?

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>not possible, huh?

All willing 2 fuck & have a baby w/ the same guy? Sure.

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

That piece of shit had been directed by somebody other spike lee? Would you still defend it?


-------------
Sig Semper Tyrannus

hell yea....

but if someone else actually directed the film, then it would be different and Id have to see te result to give you a real answer...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

i mean, we got to sit through that whole pointless story about the fucking XFL??? like anybody even remembers what the fuck the XFL was!

Las Vegas Outlaws in this bee-otch!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that movie sucked. As did the XFL. Coincedence?

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

***watches it land on Scropion. Walks away contented.***

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

Though arguing that "She Hate Me" is a gigantic donkey turd is worth dying, worth killing, worth dying, worth killing, worth dying, worth killing...

Spike Lee fandom can be a powerful force, leading its followers to accept and praise a lot of weird stuff that they would have dissed the crap out of had it come from any other director

(not that that's particularly different from the fans of just about any other director, of course... but even Woody Allen fans draw the line SOMEwhere)

you guys rip everyhting Spike does down to the glasses he wears but when other directors do THE EXACT SAME SHIT, you guys fall to your knees in praise....

all this bitching about the animated sperm...but yet I dont hear shit about the anime in Kill Bill..

let's not even get into this realism crap(actually, let's...)you mean to tell me that its COMPLETELY inconceivable that 20 lesbians would have $10,000 to spend and were willing to be impregnated naturally by a man with good genes in order to fulfill their desire to have a child?

but even so, this is a movie, a film....its not a damn documentary...

g'head with that...

I'll save your stereotyping of lesbians for later....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

that other directors (specifically QT) do exactly what Spike does... but i've never seen Qt come with any sloppy storytelling like Spike does... whatever Tarantino's flaws may be - and there are quite a few of them - the inability to write a tight script isn't one of them

and you can't compare the anime sequence in Kill Bill to the animated sperm... those were two completely different contexts and created completely different effects (i've never complained about the animated sperm btw, even though i did find it somewhat silly)

the rich lesbians thing... i DO have something of an issue about that, but it's never something i really thought about before cats on this board started talking about it. i'm more interested in why they seemed so excited about heterosexual intercourse with black men

I damn sure didnt see it...I saw fear, uncertainty, doubt, and disdain...

we are assuming incorrectly that all of these lesbian have never had sex with a man, which is clealry no the case of the Kerry Washington, Bai Ling, Paula Jai Parker and Monica Belluci characters....

and the whole "training section of Kill Bill 2......*SMH*

the watch story in Pulp Fiction....entertaining but also unecessary....

and as enjoyable as Pulp Fiction was it was horribly disjointed...

as was Jackie Brown....that had enough shit for a few movies as well....as do any of QT's shits...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

but they still seemed a bit too much into it (apart from maybe Sarita Choudhoury's character)... even that scene where he has to disrobe so they can look at his dick... it's so unnecessary. why are they so interested in looking at his penis rather than at, say, his medical records (maybe they looked at that too... been a while since i watched it)

but that scene was supposed to be some sort of sexual challenge... but they're not supposed to be interested in *sex* with him, are they?

i know lots of lesbians have had sex with men before... and lots of them didn't like it as much as these chicks seemed to (some of them may actually like dick, sure... but why did ALL of them have to?)

>and the whole "training section of Kill Bill 2......*SMH*

what's wrong with that sequence?

well, if anything is wrong with it, it's the fact that it's homage. QT likes to (mis)quote the old adage that "bad artists do homage while great artists steal"... QT has stolen quite well in a lot of previous scenes but here he was doing homage.

but then again, the entire film was a homage so if you've gotten to that point in the movie, you must have already come to terms with that

>the watch story in Pulp Fiction....entertaining but also
>unecessary....

i wouldn't say it was unnecessary... it was definitely indulgent. but then again, that is the flavor of the film.

did we NEED the whole Christopher Walken speech in order to set up the fact that this watch means a lot to Butch? no. that could have been established in like 2 seconds.

but Pulp Fiction is not necessarily a film that is based on plot... it's character-driven, and the point of that scene was to let this Christopher Walken character ramble on about sticking a watch up his ass.

>and as enjoyable as Pulp Fiction was it was horribly
>disjointed...

how? i don't see any disjointedness at all.

you could make a case with Kill Bill, but Pulp was pretty fluid... that's part of its appeal for most people, the fact that despite the fractured nature of the narrative, by the end all the ends tie together

>as was Jackie Brown....that had enough shit for a few movies
>as well....as do any of QT's shits...

umm... Jackie Brown. that film had a few problems but i'm not sure if disjointedness was necessarily one of them. i think the issue was that the characters were not as strong (or at least, as idiosyncratic) as some of QT's other films and he's left to let the plot push things forward... and plot is not necessarily something he's good with. actually, i'm almost certain that he's just not *interested* in plot.

the women are the only reason to LOVE that movie...dania ramirez alone...jim brown, q-tip, and the guy who was duke's brother were all cool to...but the movie was ...bad...but i'd watch again...for dania...

i don't even think spike knew what he really wanted the movie to be, or be about....it's surely didn't come thru clearly onscreen..it's very shock and awe-ish...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

seriously...i think spike got lost about that part during the course of the movie...

The whistleblower stuff should've been separated from the sex comedy stuff.

They sort of fit together but not really well.

I do agree with you that it gets undeserved criticism, though. I enjoyed it. Some of these cats act like they can't recognize a bad Spike joint when they see it (Girl 6, SOS).

Spike only puts so much shit into his movies b/c he doesn't know what kind of hell he'll have to go through to get another movie off the ground.

>Spike only puts so much shit into his movies b/c he doesn't
>know what kind of hell he'll have to go through to get another
>movie off the ground.

that's total bullshit. Spike said himself on the podcast that he's been at it for 20 years and he's been lucky enough to make a movie a year during that time. he knows his projects aren't gonna make a ton of cash so he offsets that by coming in on time and under budget. except of course for Malcolm X.

you'll have to come up with a better excuse than that.

of this film...

just saying "it sucked" repeatedly doesnt enlighten me to the flaws in the this film....

I think once timw has elapsed and the next Spike Lee movie is out to hate on, then people will feel differently about this film....like they did with Bamboozled....

When Bamboozled came out, folks decried like it was a crime in cinema, now that Laffy Taffy is one of the most popular songs in the country...people are getting a clearer vision of what the film was saying...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

and "Laffy Taffy," Ying Yang Twins, L'il Jon, Field Mob... none of that stuff changes the fact that it was a bad film

sure, the ideas it was trying to convey were valid, and are probably more relevant today then they've ever been

but it's still a BAD FILM

You just hate Spike

i actually like Spike a lot. for a long time he was my favorite filmmaker, barring none. but i'm sorry... i cannot give him a pass for making bad films.

regardless of how much i admire Spike for the movies he made in the 1980s and part of the 90s or how important i think he is for giving a prominent voice to Black filmmakers for the first time in film history (no, blaxploitation doesn't count), the fact is that he has some serious flaws as a filmmaker. and some of his films suffer from these flaws more than others.

i can't think of ANY criterion by which i can call Bamboozled a good film - and mind you, i found ways to like Girl 6! in fact, Spike's name is the only reason that i was able to rationalize sitting through it to end... if the beginning credit had read "Directed by Random Film Student" rather than "A Spike Lee Joint" i woulda still thought it was just as bad... i probably wouldn't have made it all the way through, though.

These 'you better love Spike's movies or it means you hate black people' cats are off their rocker. It's a lame, ignorant argument that holds zero weight in my book.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

.

>of this film...
>
>just saying "it sucked" repeatedly doesnt enlighten me to the
>flaws in the this film....

i already did that. and it's not my job to enlighten you to the flaws of the film.

it's a complete and total misfire. every thing that is supposed to be good about movies...it's not.

>
>i already did that. and it's not my job to enlighten you to
>the flaws of the film.

isn't that what he's been asking all of you? The point of the post was for you guys to enlighten him....am I wrong here?

>>i already did that. and it's not my job to enlighten you to
>>the flaws of the film.
>
>isn't that what he's been asking all of you? The point of the
>post was for you guys to enlighten him....am I wrong here?

so, we have to follow this guy's rules on the message board now? besides,quite a few people in this post have describe why the movie sucks. he just refuses to hear it.

but YOU expended the energy to come in here and bitch about the movie...

so when I reply to you, Im talking to YOU not the other 6 people in this thread....

so if you gonna criticize the movie then do some with a clear and viable argument...

you might have a point and I might agree with you...

for the record, I dont think the film was perfect....it had flaws...but most films do...

overall, I enjoyed it and I can state explicity why I feel that way...

but to come in here and just say "itsuckeditsuckeditsuckeditsucked" but when asked for YOUR opinion ony why it sucked, you balk and make excuses....that's wack, son...

if its not worth discussing to you, then be out, dont discuss the shit if it aint worth discussing....

the world will continue to spin to its axis...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

>but YOU expended the energy to come in here and bitch about
>the movie...
>
>so when I reply to you, Im talking to YOU not the other 6
>people in this thread....
>
>so if you gonna criticize the movie then do some with a clear
>and viable argument...

and like i said, i already did that. i'm not gonna go through the script line for line and point out all the examples of bad writing to you.
besides, if you liked the movie, you probably wouldn't get it anyway.

idiot.

---------------------
do this don't do that.
http://www.myspace.com/thievinstealberg

you go back to :)~'n over on GD,instead of telling me what the fuck I should and should'nt be doing wit my computer....

you dont see me running in your posts telling you how pathethic you look swingin off bitches nuts in your posts, do you?

motherfucker, do you....don't worry about what the fuck I'm doin'...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

Yall made me post on my vacation. I'm type mad, god.


Let Orbit 'splain the 'She Hate Me' hate:

You see, the problem with 'SHM' lays in an awkward double standard we all carry in regards to black directors and black films.

You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside the box" and create work that is out of the norm, unconventional, or obtuse.

This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.

That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others. Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for any artist.

Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:

'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking brilliant.

'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever. Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie director" actually directing a movie where race is not the centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.

Hating ass negroes pasted 'Summer of Sam' with:

"who he think he is"

"stick to what you do best"

"What the hell is Spike doing trying to direct horror?"

And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).

When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
"Steven, you made a bad film."

When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we say:
"Spike, you made a bad film"

We say:
"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost it....."

This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.

Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and profound in its own way.

White people, their friends, and toms said:

"who does Spike think he is?"

"That was too offbeat for me"


This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like 'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking suck, thank you very much). '

Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white, dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:

"What was Spike's point?"

"What was Spike trying to do?"

"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"


Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too offbeat and esoteric.


Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in a non cool way).


This is what 'She Hate Me' suffers from. The wrong filmmaker made it.

Hell, take a film like....'Black and White'. You remember...film "about" race...had a wild cast...Brooke Shields, Robert Downey Jr, Mike Tyson, Raekwon, Claudia Shiffer, Ben Stiller...mad people.

Remember that?

Directed by a white director(I 4get his name, but who cares). Had all sorts of sexually lurid scenes with a scattered, uncoventional sequence of events. Very racy.

My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really wasn't very good.

I saw it back in like 2000 when it came out at the insistence of several reviews I read that lauded it for being "radiant" and "brave" and "profound" and all sorts of dumb shit like that.

I saw it, and saw a bad Spike Lee ripoff, that had shock scenes in it just for the sake of generating shock value, not for the sake of truly communicating anything honestly interesting or telling about race.

I see 'She Hate Me' as at least as good, if not far, far, far, far, far, far, better than 'Black and White'. 'Black and White' was universally praised. 'She Hate Me' is universally shat on.

The race of the directors is the only difference.

'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.

And I dug the hell out of it, along with 3 or 4 other people on earth.


I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out, as long as white people don't like black people. As long as those white people have a following of black people who tries to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.

Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers should be able to be different and obtuse just like white filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.

Mang.


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Black and White got destroyed in the reviews. All of the good reviews were either paid players like 60 second film review or people hyping the film before they saw it. I don't really remember seeing many good reviews for that film.

It's actually a great comparison for She Hate Me. People who want to like it will like it. Most people won't.

On rotten tomatoes, SHM was 4 out of ten, Black and White was 4.5 (and Ebert loved both).

And 'Black and White' does have higher review scores across the board. The fact that they are marginally higher means little. They are higher.

And that is almost besides the point, because on *these* boards, I don't know of a more hated film released in the last year than 'She Hate Me'. In fact....that isn't totally true. Other films have been hated as much, but the efforts you all go through to bad mouth this film are without equal.....that is why the poster made this post...he/she remembers all the 'SHM' posts quite vividly.

>Black and White got destroyed in the reviews. All of the
>good reviews were either paid players like 60 second film
>review or people hyping the film before they saw it. I don't
>really remember seeing many good reviews for that film.
>
>It's actually a great comparison for She Hate Me. People who
>want to like it will like it. Most people won't.
>
>On rotten tomatoes, SHM was 4 out of ten, Black and White was
>4.5 (and Ebert loved both).
>


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

1) "You see, the problem with 'SHM' lays in an awkward double standard we all carry in regards to black directors and black films. You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside the box" and create work that is out of the norm, unconventional, or obtuse. This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time."

I don't disagree so I don't really need to address this. White directors get more of a pass than black directors although I personally call people on experimental shit that doesn't work whether it is Gerry or She Hate Me (not that Van Sant is as good as Spike).

2) "'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking brilliant."

I love this film and think it should be shown in schools to spark discussion. I can see people's flaws with it as a movie but I think it's really more than that. I see the same thing with Thin Red Line. I wouldn't recommend that to everyone but I absolutely love it. But it's not a typical movie and people are going to fault it for that (whether that's right or wrong is a different discussion altogether)

3) "'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever. Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie director" actually directing a movie where race is not the centerpiece of the film....it bugged them."

I didn't like this film. I never got into it but the issue of race not being involved isn't an issue IMO because 25th Hour is great IMO and doesn't hit on race at all.

4) "that no one says anything similar when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others."

I think a lot of people have been down on Spielberg's latest stuff. Just check out the War of the Worlds post.

5) "When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
"Steven, you made a bad film."

When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we say:
"Spike, you made a bad film"

We say:
"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost it....."

I don't like when Spike or Spielburg are too heavily involved with their scripts anymore. Spike loses focus on his plot and Stevie is soft. The fact that Spielberg is always ending his shit with ridiculous happy endings is beyond old. And I'm also tired of "GIVE ME AN OSCAR ALREADY" Scorcese as well so I'm the wrong guy to pin this on. Still, I concede that others might do what you said so I left this alone. No need for me to address the point since it wasn't directed at me.

6) >This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.

Never saw it so I can't comment.

7) "This is what 'She Hate Me' suffers from. The wrong filmmaker made it. Hell, take a film like....'Black and White'."

Here's my issue. Are you talking about critics, people here, or the black movie-going audience. Because people here don't like Black and White. A few idiot critics did. You said Black and White was "universally praised" which is not close to being true. Also, I think it does a disservice to SHM to compare it. Black and White was garbage. SHM was experimental and tried to follow a couple of seemingly separate stories and combine them. I can admit Spike's ambition with SHM even though I think he failed completely. Toback just made a dumb fucking movie.


8) "I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out, as long as white people don't like black people."

Again, you started pointing the finger at the people on this board, so who are you addressing? Is the issue white people not liking black people or the black audience being too limiting on their directors? Is the problem the people on this board or the filmgoers of America? This discussion goes far beyond SHM and I don't see it being argued well in this thread so I avoided even bringing it up.

But you still had to be called out before you responded appropriately.

True story.

I'll reply to all that later.


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

I knew that as soon as I saw Raekwon (if I remember) and crew finger-fucking Chyna Phillips in the woods during the opening credits.

And you know us black folk are harder on our creatives than anyone else, especially if they've been coming with the good stuff for almost 20 years. What Spike *tried* to do and what he actually did in She Hate Me are two entirely different things. The concept was intriguing, but for whatever reason, the execution was problematic, and ultimately failed, imo. And I have no qualms about saying that. Doesn't mean I hate Spike, or black people. I just didn't dig what he was trying to do this time out. He'll get 'em next time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

>I knew that as soon as I saw Raekwon (if I remember) and crew
>finger-fucking Chyna Phillips in the woods during the opening
>credits.

No, it wasn't Raekwon. Sort of tips me off to how seriously I should take your opinion here. Thanks for tipping us off to not seeing the movie. One of your friends saw it, probably one of your white friends, who mistook the actual person you are talking about for Raekwon, ran back to you and said:

"Hey Jamal. That film was like...sooooo laaayme. Reeekwown the Sheff was like totallly finger fucking Chyna Phillips in the woods."


>And you know us black folk are harder on our creatives than
>anyone else, especially if they've been coming with the good
>stuff for almost 20 years. What Spike *tried* to do and what
>he actually did in She Hate Me are two entirely different
>things. The concept was intriguing, but for whatever reason,
>the execution was problematic, and ultimately failed, imo.
>And I have no qualms about saying that. Doesn't mean I hate
>Spike, or black people. I just didn't dig what he was trying
>to do this time out. He'll get 'em next time.
>___________________________________________________________________________________________

----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Now kindly slap yourself for typing that dumb shit.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

*dap*

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

you started out arguing that She Hate Me was a work of genius, but now you're content to settle for saying that it's at least as good as mediocre to bad films by white filmmakers?

Know your place, bitch.

**SMACK**

He/she cosigned my POST, you fucking dickhead. Cosign suggests that he/she agrees with my *overall* argument -- that the 'She Hate Me' hatred is unwarranted and is the product of a double standard.

And let's actually get into what I said:

"I see 'She Hate Me' as at least as good, if not far, far, far, far, far, far, better than 'Black and White'."

I presented TWO opinions, and it is the latter that is actually *my personal* opinion. I presented the former one to broaden the proposition, so that you dickheads could't railroad the argument into a "SHM vs. Black and White" post, which is what you usually do when you can't actually debate any of my *overall* points.

This is why two of four replies to my post are about 'Black and White' and not the other points I made -- that is the only point anyone of you can actually even come close to refuting. My *overall* argument is actually 100% correct. The cosigner understands that. You don't.

And you still lawst, by the way:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=1908199


>you started out arguing that She Hate Me was a work of
>genius, but now you're content to settle for saying that it's
>at least as good as mediocre to bad films by white
>filmmakers?



----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

what Im saying and what he's saying is what I've been saying from jump...

Spike gets held to an impossible standard that other directors dont get held to....

He makes dope films.

Period.

But he chooses to color outside the lines and instead of allowing your minds to go with him, you refuse and dog the fuck outta him...

He's not a bad filmmaker.

Jesse Dylan is shitty director.

not Spike...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

I never said Spike was a bad filmmaker, I said that I thought She Hate Me was a bad movie.

I can appreciate the reach Spike was trying to make but I don't think he succeeded. He isn't a bad filmmaker because of it. He's a good filmmaker who made a bad film.

talking about a general standard Spike may or may not be held to changes the focus of the argument too much...

either you argue unconditionally that She Hate Me is an excellent film

or

you argue that it really isn't *that* great, but that we would have cut the film a break if it had been made by a white director

but i'm not quite sure you can go both ways at the same time

I enjoyed the film thoroughly...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

okay… then we’re back on track. but if you’re gonna argue for the excellence of the film, then the double standard issue only weakens your argument

to be honest, though, if i have ever applied a double standard when assessing Spike’s work it has actually been **in his favor**… i continue to tolerate and rationalize a lot of Spike’s odd storytelling tics whereas i would have written them off as incompetent had it been any other director.

mainly because i believed (and still do believe, actually) that since there has never been a strong, SUSTAINED Black American film movement, Black filmmakers are going to have to construct their own film grammar from scratch, and yes, it’s gonna be a little awkward going at first.

but after a few films, there’s really no way you can continue to explain away the fact that Spike has some serious problems with storytelling – his inability to properly end his stories is the most obvious deficiency, but there are others.

i really can’t accept the whole “you’re rejecting She Hate Me because it’s a Black man doing something different from the norm” argument. Carl Franklin’s One False Move is one of my favorite films and it was very different from what Black filmmakers were doing back then (or even now) but it works. because Franklin tells the story effectively. no excuses necessary.

Carl Franklin is a linear director...where as Spike tries to explore film as an artform....

I neve rhad a problem following Spike's stories....my only consistent complaint with him is sometimes he overloads his films with characters, some who aren't necessary....

Im still tryintg to understand why the whistleblowing bother you guys so much...

its BACKstory....its explains how the character got in the stituation he's in....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogiz

it’s only art when you’re cutting all over the place and jumbling up the chronology for no reason except for because you can? well, then you should be loving Tarantino then!

(actually, even his fragmented chronology usually serves a purpose. i should say that you love… um… what’s that damn movie called? the one by the director of Y Tu Mama Tambien and starring Sean Penn, Naomi Watts and Benicio Del Toro?)

besides, One False Move’s plot is just as fractured… only it doesn’t employ flashbacks.

i know that’s not what you meant, btw… but i still have a problem with you saying “Spike Lee explores film as an artform.” whenever i hear someone appealing to a filmmaker’s “artfulness” or “experimentalism” it’s usually the beginning of an apology for poor storytelling skills.

Hitchcock explored film as an artform more than almost anybody else and he ALWAYS told a straightforward story with a beginning, middle and end. to me, this is the most basic tenet of narrative filmmaking and if Spike is not good at that, it’s a problem. it’s NOT about “exploring film as an artform.”

>I neve rhad a problem following Spike's stories....my only
>consistent complaint with him is sometimes he overloads his
>films with characters, some who aren't necessary....

and you say this as if it’s just a **small** problem

>Im still tryintg to understand why the whistleblowing bother
>you guys so much...
>
>its BACKstory....its explains how the character got in the
>stituation he's in....

you know what? i’m glad you brought that up, because i actually wanted to say something about that.

initially, i LOVED the whistleblowing thing, even when i knew it was just a set-up for what would presumably be the “real” plot of the story. i liked the fact that Spike took the time to construct this elaborate story because the average Hollywood film would usually try to get us to the meat as fast as possible and just perfunctorily show us the protagonist losing his job at the beginning with no explanation for it.

the problem is that the story resurfaced again after being ignored for 5 hours and it was distracting. and the more i think about, Spike should not have even included it in the first place.

if he wanted to tell a story about a dude impregnating lesbians or trying to win back his nouveau lesbo ex, then THAT is the story he should have told and saved the rest of that other bullshit for a different film.

Mamet always says that you should get right into the heart of your story as quickly as possible, and give the audience JUST enough information needed to understand the basic situation. it’s like when you’re telling a joke, you start it “a black guy, a white guy and a Chinaman walk into a bar…”

you don’t start the joke with when the white guy woke up, and the Asian guy got into a fight with his wife and the black guy’s dog ran away so they all decided separately that they needed a drink, so the Asian gentleman got into his car but stopped at the mechanic’s first and the white dude got into a taxi and told the driver "take me to the bat!" and the black guy…

none of that "back story" is gonna make the joke funnier or easier to understand. so we leave it the fuck out.

and this is a problem that Spike has, and this is the same problem you talk about when you say Spike includes too many characters. and no, this is NOT a small problem. it is a big problem. it is a major misunderstanding of how a story works.

granted, there’s more than one way to tell a story, of course… and i applaud Spike or anybody else who tries something new. but if it’s not working, i’m not necessarily gonna give you props for just trying. what’s the use of being “experimental” when the end product isn’t “good”?

>(actually, even his fragmented chronology usually serves a
>purpose. i should say that you love… um… what’s that damn
>movie called? the one by the director of Y Tu Mama Tambien and
>starring Sean Penn, Naomi Watts and Benicio Del Toro?)

i meant the director of Amores Perros

and i STILL can't remember the name of the damn film... 16 oz or some shit.

it sucked.

And I don't remember it being that bad. In fact, I think I wrote a review on here touting it as the film of that year.

Of course that was probably because Spike Lee had nothing to do with it.

/sarcasm
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
get my kicks
on channel 6

>Yall made me post on my vacation. I'm type mad, god.
>
>
>Let Orbit 'splain the 'She Hate Me' hate:
>
>You see, the problem with 'SHM' lays in an awkward double
>standard we all carry in regards to black directors and black
>films.
>
>You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside
>the box" and create work that is out of the norm,
>unconventional, or obtuse.
>
>This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright
>laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.
>
>That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous
>films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the
>nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others.
>Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his
>films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to
>experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for
>any artist.
>
>Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:
>
>'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black
>manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in
>some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black
>filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted
>it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking
>brilliant.
>
>'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever.
>Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their
>black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie
>director" actually directing a movie where race is not the
>centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.
>
>Hating ass negroes pasted 'Summer of Sam' with:
>
>"who he think he is"
>
>"stick to what you do best"
>
>"What the hell is Spike doing trying to direct horror?"
>
>And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that
>are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar
>when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority
>Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).
>
>When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
>"Steven, you made a bad film."
>
>When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we
>say:
>"Spike, you made a bad film"
>
>We say:
>"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost
>it....."
>
>This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.
>
>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did
>so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward
>development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and
>profound in its own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"
>
>
>This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but
>outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard
>Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs
>those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like
>'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking
>suck, thank you very much). '
>
>Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was
>dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white,
>dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out
>the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:
>
>"What was Spike's point?"
>
>"What was Spike trying to do?"
>
>"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"
>
>
>Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life
>Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too
>offbeat and esoteric.
>
>
>Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of
>Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would
>been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the
>Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar
>buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in
>a non cool way).
>
>
>This is what 'She Hate Me' suffers from. The wrong filmmaker
>made it.
>
>Hell, take a film like....'Black and White'. You
>remember...film "about" race...had a wild cast...Brooke
>Shields, Robert Downey Jr, Mike Tyson, Raekwon, Claudia
>Shiffer, Ben Stiller...mad people.
>
>Remember that?
>
>Directed by a white director(I 4get his name, but who cares).
>Had all sorts of sexually lurid scenes with a scattered,
>uncoventional sequence of events. Very racy.
>
>My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really
>wasn't very good.
>
>I saw it back in like 2000 when it came out at the insistence
>of several reviews I read that lauded it for being "radiant"
>and "brave" and "profound" and all sorts of dumb shit like
>that.
>
>I saw it, and saw a bad Spike Lee ripoff, that had shock
>scenes in it just for the sake of generating shock value, not
>for the sake of truly communicating anything honestly
>interesting or telling about race.
>
>I see 'She Hate Me' as at least as good, if not far, far, far,
>far, far, far, better than 'Black and White'. 'Black and
>White' was universally praised. 'She Hate Me' is universally
>shat on.
>
>The race of the directors is the only difference.
>
>'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is
>different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social
>commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.
>
>And I dug the hell out of it, along with 3 or 4 other people
>on earth.
>
>
>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.
>
>Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers
>should be able to be different and obtuse just like white
>filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.
>
>Mang.
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.
>
>"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night
>and that he and I live to fight another day."
>
>(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

>You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside
>the box" and create work that is out of the norm,
>unconventional, or obtuse.

Which black filmmakers are you talking about besides Spike? And who is this phantom "we" that do not like them? Basically, what black-directed movies are you talking about and who are the critics that are bashing them. Shouldn't be too hard to answer.

>This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright
>laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.
>
>That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous
>films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the
>nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others.
>Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his
>films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to
>experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for
>any artist.

Again -- this "we" that is routinely pardoning white directors -- I don't know who that is. You're going to have to name names.

And just because the critics don't get Spike has nothing to do with many of the posters in this thread. A lot of people (myself included) are in here saying they love Spike's whole body of work, but they're going to call a spade a spade and say SHM was a bad film. So don't argue with racist critics, argue with the OKPs posting in this thread.

>Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:
>
>'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black
>manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in
>some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black
>filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted
>it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking
>brilliant.

Haven't seen it, fully intend to. I'll watch anything Spike makes because I honestly think he's probably the greatest filmmaker of the last 20 years.

>'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever.
>Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their
>black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie
>director" actually directing a movie where race is not the
>centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.

Again, haven't seen it, but everyone I've ever talked to said it was great. And I thought "25th Hour" was amazing, and the best picture of the year when it came out, so it's not like I'm getting upset when Spike isn't railing on race issues.

>And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that
>are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar
>when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority
>Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).
>
>When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
>"Steven, you made a bad film."

I think Spielberg is one of the most overrated directors in the history of director-dom. Private Ryan and Schindler's List were good, but not that good -- nowhere near Spike's films, in my book.

And just because the majority of Americans have horrible taste in film and fall all over themselves for a happy ending doesn't mean that the posters in this thread do. Again, who are you talking to? Mainstream white critics or the actual posters in this thread?

>When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we
>say:
>"Spike, you made a bad film"
>
>We say:
>"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost
>it....."

I've never said this, and I haven't seen this expressed once in this thread in regards to SHM. Everyone is saying that this film was bad for any number of reasons. Nobody is saying "Spike lost it." They're just saying that no director hits a home run every time out, and Spike struck out with SHM.

>This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.
>
>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did
>so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward
>development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and
>profound in its own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"

What white people are you referring to? I'm white, and this might be my second favorite Spike film after Do The Right Thing. Every white person I know and who I've recommended it to enjoyed it as well. My DVD copy has gotten plenty of play in my town. Again, who are you attacking, mainstream white critics or the posters in this thread?

>This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but
>outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard
>Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs
>those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like
>'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking
>suck, thank you very much). '

Well -- here I can't say too much for the posters in this thread, but I think Jim Jarmusch is criminally overrated and I have yet to solve what the appeal in any of his films is. Richard Linklater is interesting, but he's no Spike Lee. QT makes some good popcorn movies. And I hate Todd Solondz' movies with a hatred only reserved for a select group of truly deserving people.

>Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was
>dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white,
>dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out
>the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:
>
>"What was Spike's point?"
>
>"What was Spike trying to do?"
>
>"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"

This is pure conjecture. Pure hyperbole. It means nothing. But to play along, I'll tell you what I'd say if Spike made that movie, "Goddamn, it was slow, boring, visually unappealing, intentionally esoteric so indy kids could jock it, and a complete waste of an otherwise interesting character." That's because that's exactly what I said when Jim Jarmusch made it.

>Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life
>Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too
>offbeat and esoteric.
>
>Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of
>Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would
>been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the
>Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar
>buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in
>a non cool way).

Again, pure conjecture. I can't say you're wrong, but you can't say you're right. You're just making stuff up here. Do better.

>My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really
>wasn't very good.

This is all I've ever heard about the film. Actually, I usually hear much stronger word against among those few who bother to watch it. I haven't bothered to watch it due to overwhelming bad word of mouth coming back to me. So what the fuck is your point? As the other poster already pointed out, to say it was "universally praised" is just ridiculous. You're going to need a better example.

>'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is
>different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social
>commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.

And I can stomach all of these things if I feel that they're incorporated into a GOOD movie (For example Bamboozled or He Got Game). The only thing I liked about the film was the ideas behind it, but they weren't developed or supported well enough for me to really get into them. The entertainment of the ethical debate -- sexuality v. business ethics -- got old after about 15 minutes, because the film didn't do enough to complicate them. I wanted it to succeed, but it just didn't.

>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.
>
>Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers
>should be able to be different and obtuse just like white
>filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.

I fear you're making a straw man and railing on that instead of the actual debate that's occuring in this thread. Here -- I'll agree that the majority of white America, that the majority of asshole film critics, and a majority of yahoos working in Hollywood might fall prey to your criticism -- they're racist, dumb, short-sighted, and have difficulty look past the color of the skin of the director. They won't let black filmmakers experiment.

But what the fuck does that have to do with the debate going on in this thread? Or the fact that many people, who are otherwise Spike's fans and supporters, didn't like She Hate Me? If you want to argue the film's merits, you're going to have to argue about the film and not the racism of middle America.

You liked it -- cool. I'm glad the film succeeded for someone. But don't try and say everyone who didn't enjoy the film is a racist. That's just fucking dumb.

I was actually going to respond until read this and my alarm went off:

>You liked it -- cool. I'm glad the film succeeded for
>someone. But don't try and say everyone who didn't enjoy the
>film is a racist. That's just fucking dumb.

Right, because that is exactly what I said.

Okayplayers use them so often when discussing with me, I have an innate alarm for them. Do better.



----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.

Let me requote and capitalize for emphasis "I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out, AS LONG AS WHITE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE BLACK PEOPLE."

What part of that statement is NOT implying that the negative response to the film is based on racism? If I'm misreading that quote, please illuminate me.

And here's another one just for fun:

>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did so in
>a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward development
>and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and profound in its
>own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"

What part of that quote isn't implying that the reception of Spike's films is based on white people's inherent racism? Again, if I've misread, please illuminate me.

And I'm glad to know that while you're eager to pounce on other posters in this thread for ignoring all your arguments, you feel perfectly justified in dismissing my entire post because of the tacked on, two line conclusion. I'm not arguing with your rep on OKP, I'm arguing with the post you made in regards to She Hate Me.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365957/

Only thing worse than watching this movie is arguing about it.

Spike had a stinker. Let it go. Inside Man trailer looks tight.

RED
http://arrena.blogspot.com

Didn't know about that...I need to check that trailer out.

Shaun G.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/insideman/

Looks very cool.

i dont see any inconsistencies in the plot.... the movie made ppl think about what r their core values... what would u do if placed in a similar situation... ethics, yo... ethics.... dope flick if ya ask me...

does it function well as a film? as a story?

that's my primary question.

the movie was a well written mess. the character's were well done but the direction of the story was bad. most movies have something to do with the title......yeah he said it in the movie, but if his ex is willing to help him make money so he can keep his lavish pad, how does she hate him?

also, the ending was crap. Him falling in love with the lesbian couple was just.....too porno for me. the kissing scend between them was just ridiculous. why didnt Spike concetrate more on the reasons why he was fired and locked out of the large firms. that could have been a great movie right there, instead of it being the bakbone too the ponro movie it came to be.

and am I really supposed to believe that a man would rather father twenty something kids, or produce that many children, then work at micki d's. come on! Live at home, get a messenger job. that was so stupid. he should have spent more time dealing with this guy's depression after losing his job and being locked out of big companies before he threw this character into sperm donation.

spike doesnt voice his characters, he just uses them as toys for him to churn out the same old rhetoric hes been wheeling out for almost two decades
the ending to this was fucking atrocious! spike could have made a good film about corporate business ethics and the effects it has on its employees and its relation to the american public or whatever but no, he just had to get on his sopabox about one of his usual now-tired obsessions, which this time was homosexuality and his ill informed preconceptions about it
i dont think this film was insulting to women, i dont totally think it was even insulting to lesbians, they wanted a kid, he gave them the sperm, it was basically a business transaction, but that whole thread was only there so spike could do his little sweetback-tribute
(i dont think he was suggesting that lesbians could be 'converted' cos none of the women went over to the hetero side did they?)
this could have been a good film but its just another case of spike losing all sense of narrative discipline and pacing (and those forced speeches thrown in for no real reason, totally unnecessary to the character or plot by john turturro during his convo with john armstrong and those embarassing speeches during the court case were ridiculous)
spike didnt know what type of film to make with she hate me, this film was a mess

>spike doesnt voice his characters, he just uses them as toys
>for him to churn out the same old rhetoric hes been wheeling
>out for almost two decades

What rhetoric do you speak of?

What "same old rhetoric" was being "wheeled out" in '25th Hour', 'He Got Game', 'Crooklyn', 'Clockers', 'Summer of Sam', 'Mo Better Blues'.......


This is what I mean about Spike hate. Its completely unfounded.

a)He tackles a diversity of issues, and so there is no "same old rhetoric": Do The Right Thing's issues were completely different than Jungle Fever's, which were completely different than Get On The Bus's which where completely different than Bamboozled's. There is no "same old rhetoric". Spike deals with an entire spectrum.

b)He uses characters for a purpose no more than any other director. He's just the only one who gets slammed for it.


c)You're a hater.



>the ending to this was fucking atrocious! spike could have
>made a good film about corporate business ethics and the
>effects it has on its employees and its relation to the
>american public or whatever but no, he just had to get on his
>sopabox about one of his usual now-tired obsessions, which
>this time was homosexuality and his ill informed
>preconceptions about it
>i dont think this film was insulting to women, i dont totally
>think it was even insulting to lesbians, they wanted a kid, he
>gave them the sperm, it was basically a business transaction,
>but that whole thread was only there so spike could do his
>little sweetback-tribute
>(i dont think he was suggesting that lesbians could be
>'converted' cos none of the women went over to the hetero side
>did they?)
>this could have been a good film but its just another case of
>spike losing all sense of narrative discipline and pacing (and
>those forced speeches thrown in for no real reason, totally
>unnecessary to the character or plot by john turturro during
>his convo with john armstrong and those embarassing speeches
>during the court case were ridiculous)
>spike didnt know what type of film to make with she hate me,
>this film was a mess

Spike is heavyhanded. Spike is weak on plot and thematically all over the place.

this we all know.

now that that is out the way, She Hate Me coulda been a great flick.

and i'm not talking about the AIDSvaccinegate scandal plotline.

i'm talking about the hands-on sperm donor plotline. not really, but that coulda worked as a driving plot device.

it woulda been hella politically incorrect. it woulda made little sense. it woulda pissed off hella folks and rightfully so. but who watches Spike joints for plot?

the relationship between Anthony Mackie and Kerry Washington's characters was worthy of a full film. her ambiguous preferences in terms of sexuality and commitment and his inability to accept them had hella merit. the scenes where they argue about the ending of their relationship and the flashback of him actually busting her in the act had hella emotional weight to it, and were acted perfectly. they showed how much potential this flick had.

spike coulda kept all the wacky shit. even the three way kiss. this is a spike joint after all we're talking about. i think he just put the other whistleblower issues in there to soften the zaniness up. if woulda been more open about it being farcical the flick woulda been much better.

-30-

Ike Manhood.

and had a better evenness of tone
but spike lee being spike lee, he cant resist chucking in a 'message' even when there doesnt need to be one
spike might be the most dogmatic filmmaker of the past 20 years