I've noticed that people living in lower class areas tend to lose their virginity earlier than mddle or upper class areas. For example, most of my Black and Arab friends from "ghettos" lost their virginity a long time ago, whereas many of my white friends lost their virginity this year (grade 11) or not yet at all. Also I saw a statistic that Black teenage girls in America were more likely (I forgot the exact number) than white girls to have kids before marriage. Does anyone know why people living in poorer areas have more sex? It doen't make sense to me.

Sad but true. For the most part, poorer people loose their virginity earlier than those who are richer. But that is not a reflection on every member of the poorer community at all. Hell some of the rich kids arround here mess arround more than the poorer ones.

I didn't mean to make a generalization like that. True, there are always exceptions, but from my personal experience, those exceptions are few and far between. Do you have any idea why this is the case though?

i don't think its fair to say that promiscuity is a result of poverty...

on the levels of black and white...i personally feel that *black* people mostly black men have to live up to that *label* of being sex gods, etc....

but that's just my pov..

there is no definate, cut to the chase exact answer for this sort of question..its a deeper psych that must be evaluated that exclude's *social* class..

in any event its too much to get into..peace

and then the type of culture that is most likely in poor areas (you understand what i mean) is generally what makes kids get in between the sheets earlier

and i think it can be other things influencing it as well.. in norway the average age of loosing virginity is 16-17 i think, but in france it is 14. I think it's more the french culture, not because france is any richer or poorer.. and norway is more americanized than france, that can also be why

i see what your saying

i even agree...

my limitied scope sees animals AS sexual beings..

we all got horny...its apart of nature...age is irrelevant..

as humans we transgressed to a level of "correctness" in which some/many feel the need to surpress sexuality...which to me is nothing but utter bull shit

it just amazes me that "sex" is even a cause for debate...

both my parents grew up in families where many things were forbidden to talk about, and theyve made sure it isnt like that in their family. sex is natural ... (different cultures sees sex differently and i can get that, but those who see it as a no-no and makes it into some mystical thing i can never get)

hehe and here i am a virgin talking about it

>we all got horny...its apart of
>nature...age is irrelevant..
>
>as humans we transgressed to a
>level of "correctness" in which
>some/many feel the need to
>surpress sexuality...which to me is
>nothing but utter bull shit
>
>
>it just amazes me that "sex"
>is even a cause for
>debate...

Really. Sex is a natural instinct of all living things.
Stoopid humans

"So foolish minded/sooo foolish minded/but I go crazy/when I can't find it"-Marvin Gaye

BUT YOU CAN F-CK FOR FREE.... THATS WHY

Knee Jerk reaction is to start talking about the kids at Rockdale County (Georgia). Little suburban sex parties in which a whole crew of them ended up getting syphillis.

Plus richer folks got more access to birth control and information about birth control.

This sort of thinking underlies the whole poverty breeds more poverty. Not just through institutions (like becuase they are poor they can't send their kids to college), but in mindset.

That is a dangerous argument.

one
k. orr

this is a dangerous argument indeed...

>Plus richer folks got more access to birth control and >information about birth control.

what about planned parent hood?

"teen" grants?

many "poorer" folks have an access to pp..i know i did..it was my safe haven.."free" bcp.."free" gyn appointments.."free" pregnancy test..."easy" access to said information, treatment, etc...

plus there are key cultural differences about birth control and abortion especially.

- lower class folks
less likely to get health care
less likely to get prenatal care
less likely to have an abortion
less likely to have open discussions about sex at school
cultural things against birth control

It's not just that PP is in the hood. I mean there are community centers and libraries in the hood too, doesn't mean they get used to their fullest potential.

one
k. orr

>plus there are key cultural differences about birth control and
>abortion especially.

examples?

there are lots of pregnant Hispanic teenagers. It's considerably higher here than in other cities. They did some research and found that Mexican families for religious reasons were very much against various forms of birth control. Those values were not lost on the kids even in this MTV fast food fueled generation.

So you go to LBJ or Travis HS, and then compare them to the highschools in Eanes. (the richer more suburban schools), and there is a marked difference.

This was a big issue here because some guy at a state agency said something to the effect that Latino families do not pass as much negative judgement on young ladies having babies, because of
- catholicism's stance on birth control
- general world view that children are great
- general experience of having children at a "young" age (where young is compared to their richer/whiter counterparts)

His statement caused a lot of controversy and discussion about generalized statements about Latino families.

Or you could keep trying to play devil's advocate and ignore evidence from social science.

one
k. orr

>less likely to have an abortion

--I'd like to see statistics on how many teenage girls of all cultures are GETTING pregnant, not just how many give birth. I bet the rates are almost the same, but white girls find ways to have abortions. I can name 4 girls (white) that I know off the top of my head that have had abortions, and those are just ones I went to high school with. But I cannot name even one black (or Mexican or Puerto Rican or Chinese or anything) girl I know that had an abortion. Maybe this makes no sense to anyone else, but seeing that line above just really made me think.

--I think this whole discussion just reinforces the fact that the US NEEDS national healthcare for everyone.

--And Bush needs to get off his conservative protestant high horse and just admit that what the country needs is sex education and contraceptives, because teenagers ARE having sex, and as much as that scares everyone, if they're going to do it, do it right. But that goes back to the old issue of giving out condoms in high school. Condoms don't promote sex among teenagers. If you're not having sex, getting a free condom is not going to make you have sex. If you are having sex, a condom is going to (if used properly) prevent diseases and pregnancy (in most cases). I mean, I've been out at concerts and shows and been given free condoms. Did I think "Wow!! A free condom. Hmmm...who's looks good to me tonight?" NO.

--Sorry, I went on longer about this issue than I meant to, and didn't read all the replies, so if I just repeated something said further down, sorry. But Bush really steams me up.

Mizzery

"There is only one race, and that is the Human Race. Everything else is culture."-James Olmos

AIM: Mizz1825

Young people's lack of information about sex education in lower class communites is one reason they're having sex earlier but I also believe that they learn from their surroundings. Just as they can learn information if it is provided to them, young people can also learn disinformation by example. If enough people in the community are having babies early, early sexual activity may seem like a normal transition into adulthood.

it's not that easy to get out of poverty, stats on social mobility in America, home of "The American Dream", are not pretty. If you're born rich, you have a real good chance to stay that way, if you're born poor, you have a much harder chance of getting ahead. You tend to wind up in poorer schools, which means it's tougher to get motivated and tougher to get into a good college, you may not have as much info on other options, or as much info in general. Plus there's the idea of social capital and social networks, i.e. getting a job isn't just about being the most qualified applicant, it's about knowing how to do the interview and knowing somebody at a company even. The only arguments I really don't like is when people seem to imply that poor people don't want to get out of poverty, that they don't know how to spend money, and it's hopeless to try to fight the "culture of poverty". Some of this is stating the obvious, but I don't think it's wrong to argue that social mobility isn't all it's cracked up to be in America and that some things (especially education) need fixing, I think it sucks when that argument is used to say "poor people are hopeless and wouldn't know what to do with more information or money."


Nasty like the freaky deaky at your local sleazy speakeasy - MF Doom

>it's not that easy to get out of poverty,>

agreed..but i KNOW many (my family including) who HAVE done this, nothing is easy, even so it is STILL duable..

>stats on social mobility in America, home of "The American >Dream", are not pretty.

tell me about it

>If you're born rich, you have a real good chance to stay that >way, if you're born poor, you have a much harder chance of >getting ahead.

for the life of me i can never fathom that argument..

how is it that immigrants can come to this country and become industrious people?

>You tend to wind up in poorer schools, which means it's tougher >to get motivated and tougher to get into a good college, you may >not have as much info on other options, or as much info in >general.

i used to say the same thing to my mother everyday, and she used to tell me that teacher's can do but so MUCH, no matter how good or bad, no one can give you "sufficient" information, it is up to YOU to go out there, find and educate yourself..

more importantly i went to kennedy high school, it wasn't a top notch school, probably one of the shittiest schools in the bronx. but i know many black and hispanics people that i graduated with that went to mit, penn state, binghamton and the like...i even got accepted to binghamton which has one of the best nursing programs in ny, but i couldn't go..wanna know why? my moms made too much according to the gov't..and the tuition was just to steep for us to afford

>Plus there's the idea of social capital and social networks, >i.e. getting a job isn't just about being the most qualified >applicant, it's about knowing how to do the interview and >knowing somebody at a company even.

agreed

>The only arguments I really don't like is when people seem to >imply that poor people don't want to get out of poverty, that >they don't know how to spend money, and it's hopeless to try to >fight the "culture of poverty". Some of this is stating the >obvious, but I don't think it's wrong to argue that social >mobility isn't all it's cracked up to be in America and that >some things (especially education) need fixing, I think it sucks >when that argument is used to say "poor people are hopeless and >wouldn't know what to do with more information or money."

lets be real here...

i see what your saying

but there are some, even many that are satisfied with their life style..

but i do agree that inner city schools are under funded, etc...

yeah, some poor kids will overcome the bad schools and general lack of opportunities available to them. And yeah, some rich kids will just not care and manage to screw up the ample opportunities that are given to them to succeed. There are exceptions to the rule, and it's obviously not random chance that causes them to buck the odds, there are a lot of great success stories. But by and large, social mobility in America is not nearly as those who want to preserve the status quo would have you believe. And I'm not saying you're advocating that either, I'm just saying that I don't think rich kids are born smarter, or more ambitious, they just are socialized into it, and given more opportunities to maximize their potential, while most poor kids aren't. This is sorta a post jack I guess, and there are elements of race and class tied up in this. But well, I can just envision somebody like Milton Friedman talking about how inheriting wealth is just like inheriting a great voice or somesuch. Being born into a well-off family confers a whole bunch of advantages, some that are recognized, some that aren't, but they add up to a tremendous advantage for those who are born wealthy over those who are born poor.


Nasty like the freaky deaky at your local sleazy speakeasy - MF Doom

cool...

i see what your saying

When I was seven, I lived in the "projects", a low-income housing development. I was social and I was often pressured to engage in play sex. We called it "clothes burning" and we rubbed a lot but that was all our bodies could do. In fact, there were plenty of opportunities to engage in play sex. A year later I was back in the 'burbs and some middle-class kids were doing the same thing but on the down low & less frequent.

For many folks sex feels good and even when it doesn't it is often a welcome distraction...it's an escape from painful experiences. The stronger these emotions are, the more people are unable to effectively deal with these feelings, the stronger the obsession with sex. I've read that addictive sexual attraction often masks feelings of inadequacy, low self esteem, and a lack of perceived control. Addicitve sex signals a craving for meaning, purpose, and value.

Despite peer pressure, I waited until college to have sex. In fact, a woman/single mother who had her share of kids and lived in the same projects I once lived in told me never to have sex. "It'll ruin your life."

Also, I discovered that my peers in the 'burbs could afford contraceptives and their parents were more willing to talk about sex with them. Quite a few of the older girls knew they could get abortions if the contraceptives didn't work. I remember being part of a group of 5-6 young women co-workers who grew up middle-class/upper middle-class. All of them had at least one abortion and a couple had more than one. I was the only one in the group who had never gotten pregnant. I found that shocking.

In high school I did not engage in real sex because I wanted to go to college, get out of my hometown and start a new life. This was my priority. It was more important than sex. When I was 18, I decided to lose my virginity. I made a bet with my roommate...it was a happening that I had control of and it didn't ruin my life. In retrospect, several of my childhood girl friends got pregnant before high school graduation (a few before junior high school) and none of them were from poor families.

>I've noticed that people living in
>lower class areas tend to
>lose their virginity earlier than
>mddle or upper class areas.
> For example, most of
>my Black and Arab friends
>from "ghettos" lost their virginity
>a long time ago, whereas
>many of my white friends
>lost their virginity this year
>(grade 11) or not yet
>at all. Also I
>saw a statistic that Black
>teenage girls in America were
>more likely (I forgot the
>exact number) than white girls
>to have kids before marriage.
> Does anyone know why
>people living in poorer areas
>have more sex? It
>doen't make sense to me.
>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

"It's quite an experience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

to say or believe that poor people (regardless of race) have more sex upper middle or wealthy people is buying into a stereotype and treading into some dangerous waters. the fact is that wealthy people have more avenues to sex information and birth control than than poor. don't think for a second that there aren't any over-sexed wealthy people out there. there are far too many instances of sex parties and orgies given by wealthy high schoolers. and let's mention that teenage date rape among wealthy teens is and has always been statistically off the meter.

"In retrospect, several of my childhood girl friends got pregnant before high school graduation (a few before junior high school) and none of them were from poor families."

I am speaking from experience rather than from statistics so I guess this is for the original poster.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

!5{erience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

I don't believe that to be true... while that may be your experience and there maybe truth in it... it isn't the case worldwide... with poverty comes lack of education, lack of elbow room, lack of social obstacles in terms of self restrictions... doesn't mean it's so... in fact, most porn stars are from weathly families... I know that wasn't the point of the post but I think whenever your poor... people tag everything on you...
here are few examples...
drugs...
and while the city catches the heat on TV, it's the county cats who keep it popping... meaning they are the fiends and users... but because they drive Camry's they don't get tagged with that...
guns...
and while cops in the city constantly reference black men with guns... on weekends, they go hunting with their white friends... what's the difference? About $30-60 a year.
welfare...
we all know who's the number one abuser of well-fair don't we...
white people.
Horrible guitar music... while we can say White Snake and White Lion all day long... Clef walks around in perfect health. What the hell is going on?

Porn stars aren't necessarily addicted to sex. People with low self esteem, a feeling of low self worth or lacking meaning in their lives are more likely to engage in gratuitous sex...these characteristics transcend social status and income levels. That was what my first post was about. I was talking about my experience in a poor community and a middle-class/upper class one. I grew up in both and I compare that to other urban and suburban folks I've met. My point is that there are reasons people engage in gratuitous sex that crosses different lines.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

"It's quite an experience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

>People with low self esteem, a feeling of low self worth or >lacking meaning in their lives are more likely to engage in >gratuitous sex...

really?

not necessarily all, but i can understand that many turn to sex when they need to succeed, need love or whatever it is.

Perhaps you read it on okayplayer, nettrice.. because i also read it not long ago. made me think about it, too, because people and need for attention, confirmation, success (all of those things) has been on my mind lately

>not necessarily all, but i can
>understand that many turn to
>sex when they need to
>succeed, need love or whatever
>it is.
>
>Perhaps you read it on okayplayer,
>nettrice.. because i also read
>it not long ago. made
>me think about it, too,
>because people and need for
>attention, confirmation, success (all of
>those things) has been on
>my mind lately

I guess all of my "best friends" were young women who engaged in gratutious sex while I was cautious. These people also ranged from poor to upper middle-class. Ronnie, Cyndi, Jerri (not their real names)...all got pregnant before they turned 18. These girls represented what my father thought was my fate and I was determined to defy his predictions. When I was younger I too craved for meaning, purpose and value. I was in pain. The only difference between me and all my close friends was I sought out a different path, a path away from engaging in gratuitous sex. I explored and almost got away from the raod less traveled.

I think folks read my posts thinking I was judging poor people. Read my post again and see that is not the case. The original post was about poverty and promiscuity but I am writing about motivation, what motivated my friends and me. Rather than seek understanding on this thread I am trying to delve deeper into myself as well as take it deeper than surface level or income & ethnicity. What is promiscuity if it isn't just about the need to have sex all the time? This isn't class or income based.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

"It's quite an experience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

yeah but all porn stars don't have low self esteem... some geniunely enjoy sex... but I will liken it to this...
when 'certain' people use coke they are labeled party animals.
when 'other' people use coke they are labeled coke heads, fiends.
when certain people murder their kids... the question is ... what happened... depression?
when other people murder their kids... they are called animals...
when Elvis Presley married Priscilla she was 13
Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin!
Woody Allen, his step daughter...
they are called Genius.
R. Kelly is pervert.
What I'm saying is it's labeling... a sickness in it's own right.

>the fact is that wealthy people have more avenues to sex >information and birth control than than poor.

i disagree
as stated prior there are numerous free clinics for inner city youth that offer the SAME information, planned parent hood to be exact..if anything i would say as far as knowledge is concerned BOTH sides of the coin are fairly ignorant and fairly knowledgable about information pertaining to conception, contraception and the like...

a "rich" friend of mine told me that if i dousch after sex i won't get pregnant...a "poor" friend told me if i get that "pill" and take it within a matter of three days i won't get pregnant...

do these two people speak for their entire class?

NO...

point is these misconceptions and ideas run rampid amongst people of all ages, races, different social classes etc...

THIS is what shapes the mind set and ignites the product of certain things...
NOT race, or social class..

people love to go off on tangents and create "realities" that's limited to a "certain" group and totally ignore the "possibility" that the SAME things go on else where...

this is just a general statement..peace

>>the fact is that wealthy people have more avenues to sex >information and birth control than than poor.
>
>i disagree
>as stated prior there are numerous
>free clinics for inner city
>youth that offer the SAME
>information, planned parent hood to
>be exact..if anything i would
>say as far as knowledge
>is concerned BOTH sides of
>the coin are fairly ignorant
>and fairly knowledgable about information
>pertaining to conception, contraception and
>the like...
>
there's a major difference between going to planned parenthood and free clinics than to going to your own private physician. also, while pregnancy prevention is stressed by parents regardless of social class, a disportionant number of upper class make it a priority. (reasons: shame on the family, etc.,) the clinics are nice but a lot of young brothas and sistas make the choice to visit these clinics rather than be sent there by their parents.

>a "rich" friend of mine told
>me that if i dousch
>after sex i won't get
>pregnant...a "poor" friend told me
>if i get that "pill"
>and take it within a
>matter of three days i
>won't get pregnant...
>
>do these two people speak for
>their entire class?
>
>NO...
>
nobody ever suggested that wealth = intelligence. i simply said that being wealthy affords an access to more effective forms of birth control and information. for example: how many of your "rich friends" are using the norplant?

>point is these misconceptions and ideas
>run rampid amongst people of
>all ages, races, different social
>classes etc...
>
no argument here.

>THIS is what shapes the mind
>set and ignites the product
>of certain things...
>NOT race, or social class..
>
so, the tuskeegee experiments weren't based on race? you might wanna think about that one.

>people love to go off on
>tangents and create "realities" that's
>limited to a "certain" group
>and totally ignore the "possibility"
>that the SAME things go
>on else where...
>
so true.
>this is just a general statement..peace
>
as is mine. no harm done. peace

>there's a major difference between going to planned parenthood >and free clinics than to going to your own private physician.
i understand. and from MY experience i found it MUCH better than going to the family doctor, because that person DIDN'T know me, my moms, and it was easier for me to talk to the physician and also not worry about my moms finding out...

>also, while pregnancy prevention is stressed by parents >regardless of social class, a disportionant number of upper >class make it a priority.

true

>(reasons: shame on the family, etc.,) the clinics are nice but a >lot of young brothas and sistas make the choice to visit these >clinics rather than be sent there by their parents.

exactly..

>nobody ever suggested that wealth = intelligence.

nor was my comment suggesting that any one did..that was just a general statement...

>i simply said that being wealthy affords an access to more >effective forms of birth control and information.

again define "effective". do they have different grades of educational information at a planned parent hood than a private facility? from my personal experience they pretty much tell you and offer the EXACT same thing.

>for example: how many of your "rich friends" are using the
>norplant?

i know NO ONE using norplant, your point is?

>so, the tuskeegee experiments weren't based on race? you might >wanna think about that one.

there's NO comparison between saying if you jump up and down after sex you can't get pregnant, and the tuskeegee experiment..or maybe there's something IM missing?

>i understand. and from MY experience
>i found it MUCH better
>than going to the family
>doctor, because that person DIDN'T
>know me, my moms, and
>it was easier for me
>to talk to the physician
>and also not worry about
>my moms finding out...
>
anonimity is great, isn't it? but a lot of upper class teenagers have the right of doctor/patient priviledge. the parent's aren't notified unless there's a major problem.
>
>>i simply said that being wealthy affords an access to more >effective forms of birth control and information.
>
>again define "effective". do they have
>different grades of educational information
>at a planned parent hood
>than a private facility? from
>my personal experience they pretty
>much tell you and offer
>the EXACT same thing.
>
not really. from my experience there are various other methods of birth control that are offered to the upper class that you'll never hear about at planned parenthood. the reason being: COST.

>>for example: how many of your "rich friends" are using the
>>norplant?
>
>i know NO ONE using norplant,
>your point is?
>
my point is i do know of people who are on the norplant. and they're all poor, and of color. doctor's convince these uninformed sistas to use a product that's still experimental. you'll never see that at a private physician's office for the upper class.

>>so, the tuskeegee experiments weren't based on race? you might >wanna think about that one.
>
>there's NO comparison between saying if
>you jump up and down
>after sex you can't get
>pregnant, and the tuskeegee experiment..or
>maybe there's something IM missing?
>
you're not missing anything. as usual, you're right on point. what a woman. :)

>anonimity is great, isn't it? but a lot of upper class teenagers >have the right of doctor/patient priviledge. the parent's aren't >notified unless there's a major problem.

true..

>not really. from my experience there are various other methods >of birth control that are offered to the upper class that you'll >never hear about at planned parenthood. the reason being: COST.

like?

>my point is i do know of people who are on the norplant. and >they're all poor, and of color. doctor's convince these >uninformed sistas to use a product that's still experimental. >you'll never see that at a private physician's office for the >upper class.

but shouldn't that be partially on the fault of these women?
my doctor was trying to get me to take depo (to help my heavy bleeding) since i was like 17, i wasn't even thinking about nursing then, but i took it upon myself to research the info, and deny it...

BUT i see *now* how that argument ties into the tuskeegee experiment though..*wink*

i guess that's what happen's when your so busy trying to debate, instead of learn..i see what your saying

>you're not missing anything. as usual, you're right on point. >what a woman

don't lie...:)

>>not really. from my experience there are various other methods >of birth control that are offered to the upper class that you'll >never hear about at planned parenthood. the reason being: COST.
>
>like?
>
give me a sec. and i'll run some down to you.

>>my point is i do know of people who are on the norplant. and >they're all poor, and of color. doctor's convince these >uninformed sistas to use a product that's still experimental. >you'll never see that at a private physician's office for the >upper class.
>
>but shouldn't that be partially on
>the fault of these women?
>
yes...to a point. but clinic doctors rely on the ignorance of their patients also. that means they too, share a responsibility for their actions.

>my doctor was trying to get
>me to take depo (to
>help my heavy bleeding) since
>i was like 17, i
>wasn't even thinking about nursing
>then, but i took it
>upon myself to research the
>info, and deny it...
>
that means that you're exceptional. not everyone is going to take the time to do the research the way you did.

>BUT i see *now* how that
>argument ties into the tuskeegee
>experiment though..*wink*
>
ahhh...discovery. what a wonderful thing. *winkin' back at 'cha*

>i guess that's what happen's when
>your so busy trying to
>debate, instead of learn..i see
>what your saying
>
we all do it. it takes a strong person to admit it. remember that superwoman. :)

>>you're not missing anything. as usual, you're right on point. >what a woman
>
>don't lie...:)

no need for me to lie. we've been down this road before and we always come to an understanding. :)

>give me a sec. and i'll run some down to you.

cool...

but are you talking about the cost for the clinic as compared to the hospital or about the people that's able to afford it?

(me for example, i was covered under teen grants)

>yes...to a point. but clinic doctors rely on the ignorance of >their patients also. that means they too, share a responsibility >for their actions.

*nods head*

>that means that you're exceptional. not everyone is going to >take the time to do the research the way you did.

you got a point....considering my poverty status at the time, who would've thought:)

>ahhh...discovery. what a wonderful thing. *winkin' back at 'cha*

*winks* again..o.k that was the last one:)

>we all do it. it takes a strong person to admit it. remember >that superwoman.

your waay cool jahlove

>no need for me to lie. we've been down this road before and we >always come to an understanding.

true...that's y i luv u...

>>give me a sec. and i'll run some down to you.
>
>cool...
>
>but are you talking about the
>cost for the clinic as
>compared to the hospital or
>about the people that's able
>to afford it?
>
no, i'm talking the cost for top-of-the-line birth control devices that the average person who goes to a clinic can't afford. a lot of clinics (not all, but an alarming number) usually receive contraceptives that are inferior and in many cases, still being privately tested. living near research triangle park, i've seen what conceptives are offered to the upper class and which ones go straight to free clinics.
>
>>ahhh...discovery. what a wonderful thing. *winkin' back at 'cha*
>
>*winks* again..o.k that was the last
>one:)
>
c'mon, just one more wink? *wink* :)

>your waay cool jahlove
>
and you're a queen jen. that's why i love you so.

this is definitely a discussion worth getting into. The same statistics happen where i am from (Kenya- E. Africa), where poorer people tend to have more kids, and a whole cornucopia of things. Its not just an american thing, in fact i think if you look at most third world countries poverty for some reason results in high teenage pregnancies, hiv/aids (hence thabo mbeki's argument that poverty is a contributing factor to the high hiv/aids cases in africa). and i am not saying poor people tend to have sex more, or such bullshit arguments that dont wash, but i think it might have to do with the environment that poverty creates (y'all know what i am talking about, nihilism, drugs, blablabla). i think it correlates to self worth, or self esteem, or lack of hope that comes with being poor., or lack of knowledge that comes out of not having access to basic needs let alone supposed luxuries like information.
n.b: just because a few people have managed to move out of the ghettos does not make it an easy step. that kind of thinking is the reason why the black bourgeoisie refuses to help and support blacks in the poor neighbourhoods (the whole if i could make it anyone can mentality that does not leave space for us to help uplift our less successful brothers. and y'all know its time we started doing something because the state of the black world is progressively getting worse).

i always think about this subject in terms of the "gangster rap" side of hip hop like guys would be out hustling (robbing/scamming/dealing/etc.) then talk about "bitches/hoes/tricks"... i assumed that "sex" was the hustle for those women.
men thought they could deal their way out, women thought they could fuck their way out... or something.


______

"Toddlers live large, play hard, and
love big—and feel great, passionate,
messy feelings." - babycenter.com

"Money isn't real." - BLOW
______

>i always think about this subject
>in terms of the "gangster
>rap" side of hip hop
>like guys would be out
>hustling (robbing/scamming/dealing/etc.) then talk about
>"bitches/hoes/tricks"... i assumed that "sex"
>was the hustle for those
>women.
>men thought they could deal their
>way out, women thought they
>could fuck their way out...
>or something.
>
>
>______
>
>"Toddlers live large, play hard, and
>
>love big—and feel great, passionate,
>messy feelings." - babycenter.com
>
>"Money isn't real." - BLOW
>______
ALWAYS THINKING????THINK HARDER NOT ALL POVERTY STRICKEN PEOPLE LISTEN TO RAP AND NOT ALL RAP IS SAYIN ALL THAT
REALLY IF YOU GOT TO THE "GREAT WHITE SIDE OF TOWN" U HEAR THOSE SUBURBAN KIDS LISTENING & BUYING INTO THAT SO CALLED "RAPLIFE" MORE THAN THE "GHETTO CHILDREN" BECAUSE TO THESE KIDS THERE IS NOTHING THERE TO BE GLORIFIED THEY LIVE THE STRUGGLE ON A DAILY BASIS & THEY CANT FAST FORWARD THRU THE PARTS THEY DONT LIKE

>ALWAYS THINKING????THINK HARDER NOT ALL POVERTY
>STRICKEN PEOPLE LISTEN TO RAP
>AND NOT ALL RAP IS
>SAYIN ALL THAT

i know... i just think back to when certain songs came out and when guys i knew who, ummmm, "hustled" made comments about how their female counterparts were living... i remember guys playing ball on sat afternoons and girls standing around watching, chatting about who they could get with, which "player" was going to be somebody... but no girls were ever playing ball, thinking THEY could be somebody.

so yeah, it's not thinking hard, more reactionary thinking... like this post in general....


______

"Toddlers live large, play hard, and
love big—and feel great, passionate,
messy feelings." - babycenter.com

"Money isn't real." - BLOW
______

>
>>ALWAYS THINKING????THINK HARDER NOT ALL POVERTY
>>STRICKEN PEOPLE LISTEN TO RAP
>>AND NOT ALL RAP IS
>>SAYIN ALL THAT
>
>i know... i just think back
>to when certain songs came
>out and when guys
>i knew who, ummmm, "hustled"
>made comments about how their
>female counterparts were living... i
>remember guys playing ball on
>sat afternoons and girls standing
>around watching, chatting about who
>they could get with, which
>"player" was going to be
>somebody... but no girls were
>ever playing ball, thinking THEY
>could be somebody.
>
>so yeah, it's not thinking hard,
>more reactionary thinking... like this
>post in general....
>
>
>______
>
>"Toddlers live large, play hard, and
>
>love big—and feel great, passionate,
>messy feelings." - babycenter.com
>
>"Money isn't real." - BLOW
>______

My thing is if YOU KNOW why would u say something like that???
not categorize people

>My thing is if YOU KNOW
>why would u say something
>like that???
>not categorize people


it was not about categorization, but seeing another side... like guys have said things to me about girls being promiscuous therefore dirty/not to be trusted blah blah, but those same guys were doing shady things... and i knew such promiscuous girls. it seemed that what led to the girls to being promiscuous and the guys being shady were the same things (not necessarily poverty) but neither could see... when i hear certain songs, many labeled as "gangsta rap" it reminds me of the aforementioned guys and girls...

any point to my thoughts? maybe that when asking – " why do they _______?" the answer could be – "same reason you _______?"
anyways...


______

"Toddlers live large, play hard, and
love big—and feel great, passionate,
messy feelings." - babycenter.com

"Money isn't real." - BLOW
______

what he's talking about is a class thing.


Nasty like the freaky deaky at your local sleazy speakeasy - MF Doom

nothing is ever that simple... ever... again... the labeling thing is ineffective. Once we realize this... we can see it for what it is... individuals making decisions... whether good or bad.

So I'm only gonna post one thing. The argument he's making, that growing up poor means losing virginity earlier, more teen pregnancies, less knowledge of sex ed and access to/knowledge of birth control, is only a racial one if you make it a racial one. The fact that a disproportionate number of blacks and latinos grow up in poverty in America is a complicating factor, but the argument he's making is based on economic class (poverty) not race.


Nasty like the freaky deaky at your local sleazy speakeasy - MF Doom

>nothing is ever that simple... ever...
>again... the labeling thing is
>ineffective. Once we realize
>this... we can see it
>for what it is... individuals
>making decisions... whether good or
>bad.


nods head in complete agreement with u :)

more racist bullshit from you. you really need to stop. i think the issue is white girls having more abortions.take it from me, they have plenty of sex. i've been there.

and his statements are always qualified with the tired, "I've got lots of ___ friends"




____________________________________________

If there were time travel, wouldn't we have met somebody from the future by now? - Bill Simmons




"Oh You who believe ! Stand out firmly for Justice, as witnesses to God, even against yourself, against your children and against your parents. Against people who are rich or poor. Because God is the best of all Protectors. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you should deviate from justice. Verily God is well acquainted with all that you do."

Holy Quran, Chapter 4: Verse 135

How is what I said racist? I said in my experience. And I didn't say, "I have lots of _______ friends". Outside of school, I don't hang aroung with one white person (not bragging or anything, just stating the facts). My three closest friends are Iraqi, Djibouti, and Tunisian. How am I racist when I say, "from my experience, this is what I see", and then ask what might explain it? If my initial post came off racist, then it was all in you perception of it and not how I intended.

whatever homie.....

...poverty got mixed up with race. That's what concerns me. If you had said Black=Promiscuity then I can understand the fuss. Your original post was poverty...

Where did race come into the discussion? I'll go back...

Anyway, race has little or nothing to do with sexual addiction. People are poor for many reasons and the expectation that poor people are more promiscuous reflects other folks' realities and indicates a growing divide between those who have certain opportunities and those who have not. In the end, it come down to expectations, how people behave because of expectations and how we are all conditioned to play these expectations out (self fulfilling propehcy).

People with feelings of low self worth don't often seek out contraception or safe sex. For these people sex replaces or becomes a purpose or defines their lifestyle. Sex can be a life affirming experience but addiction is something else.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

!5{erience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

> If you had said
>Black=Promiscuity then I can understand
>the fuss. Your original
>post was poverty...

...and race was the basis of your original post:

>I've noticed that people living in
>lower class areas tend to
>lose their virginity earlier than
>mddle or upper class areas.
> For example, most of
>my Black and Arab friends
>from "ghettos" lost their virginity
>a long time ago

What about white or Asian people who are low-income or people of color who are middle/upper class?

>Also I
>saw a statistic that Black
>teenage girls in America were
>more likely (I forgot the
>exact number) than white girls
>to have kids before marriage.

My roommate in college was white, from a middle class family and had to drop out (she was on welfare) to have a baby...out of wedlock. She's not the exception.

> Does anyone know why
>people living in poorer areas
>have more sex? It
>doen't make sense to me.

First, you may have to figure out for yourself what expectations you have of people of color and what cues you communicate about race & class to others. How does this point of view affect your ideas about sex and income?

When responding to the original post I think I subconsciously understood that there was a bias and I addressed it from my experience living with both low income and middle/upper income folks. I ignored the bias and attempted to discuss deeper motivations behind promiscuity.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

"It's quite an experience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

than poverty.

More black people lived in poverty in the early 20th century than they do now. However, deviant sexual behaviors and their consequences (STD's, children born out of wedlock, etc) didn't start to become a serious problem until the mid-1960's. It might be time to look at the behaviors that are implemented with these environments and analyze exactly where the problem is (as if we didn't know already).

Most kids in poverty attend a public school. Public schools in upper communities are given more money bringing in better teachers(at least PhD wise)as well as more resources(programs etc). Poorer neighborhoods are given the left-overs or lil or nothing at all to work with. This includes sex education courses, health and fitness,also parental training courses:Like when students are given a baby(doll)and must play mommy or daddy to it for a 48 period. There are also PlanParentHood and other such facilities in upperclass(mid class) neighborhoods that give out FREE contraceptives to students.
Poor schools are barely given a sex ed. class.

Prime example: My first sex.ed class was in 6th grade, that course cont. until 8th grade. My brother(h.s. Junior) and sister(8thgrade) have NEVER had a sex.ed class. The difference, I attended a elementary school that was upperclass located in the heart of a hospital district were many doctors sent their children and most kids went on to Whitney Young H.S. My lil bro and sis attend(ed) the neighborhood school located in a low to somewhat mid class area.

If the playing field (education, career,etc) was leveled statistics might not exist.

what else is there to do???

NoIam playin
MAybe they should look up how many of them white girls not havin babys are havin abortions they can afford it!!

& when u aint got to much u are more likely to be with ya man thrua lot for a long time & end up havin a baby by that man
havin a baby does not=promiscuity

&alot of poverty strcken peoplecan not afford to get married
or choose not to for finacial reasons

zackly.

Interesting topic...
I think its simply the state of the world today where sex is accepted as a form of entertainment. its "what you do". i think that ALL people regardless of SES tend to overindulge in SEX (hah!). no but seriously, sex is promoted through every avenue. even magazine ads promoting shoes will make the ad have something to do with sex...

sign of the times <sigh>

poverty --> no education. Just think of South Africa.


◄▼►▲◄▼►▲◄▼►▲◄▼►▲◄▼►▲◄▼►


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But I didn't know how!
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"In retrospect, several of my childhood girl friends got pregnant before high school graduation (a few before junior high school) and none of them were from poor families."

just because you don't see evidence of being pregnant doesn't mean that they didn't get pregnant. studies have shown that white girls are more likely to have abortions than black girls.

Shemhotep

do you want three words to throw this entire theory out of the window?
"Girls Gone Wild".
not to mention,
Penthouse
Playboy
Adam and EVe film collection
Cheri
Club
Skank
Boobs
Hooters
... I mean c'mon I could go on forever... surely you don't think this multi billion dollar industry is run off of women with low self esteem who are poor? That is a completel myth. Completely.

Can you name those studies? I just mention that because I was recently reading studies that say the opposite. One of my teachers was just discussing the myth that Black girls don't have abortions.

Bohemian_Bomb
AIM: theedge413

"You're only afraid to die when you ain't livin right" - Talib Kweli

I lived in bad ass conditions in my youth. My friends in the burbs and nicer hoods were fucking before me . I know teen white kids having sex as young as 11. They had mention on Oprah the other day about 12 yo white girls giving guys head. Oral sex and vaginal sex are the same to me, a sexual act.


If you don't like it , too bad !

because there's nothing else to do. Here in il, in the suburb of ford heights (east chicago heights) it was reported last summer that they had the highest percentage of teenage single mothers in the country. and that neighborhood happens to be the equlivant of the south bronx back in '86.
it's kinda like the poorest people have the largest families. go figure

Researchers say that young ladies have sex at a early age because of low Self Esteem, rather than being poor. I have friends of both, rich and poor class, that lost their virginity at an early age. A good family life also helps. Well, there's my opinion.