i haven't experienced the (insert nationality here)-americans as they are living in the isolated pockets, so i ignore how they appear to other americans.

So i want to get to agree with you.. can we agree that for example the russian-americans (in general, specially those who haven't integrated very much) are a subculture within the american culture? They are not russians anymore, althou they do have russian heritage and try to keep their russian culture alive. They live in USA, but they are not the mainstream culture, they have their own sub-culture which is heavily influenced by Russia.

>thus the hyphen- they're not plain old norwegian, not plain
>old american, but, as u mentioned, a combination of the two,
>which often has characteristics completely independent of
>the others

Yep, i agree with that. However, on top of what you said, i still do think that USA has had a more "fresher" influence on them than their original culture (since their lives have been spent in America, no matter how pocketed they have been living), making them at best slightly more american than (insert nationality here). Except for the straight off the boat immigrants, of course.

can you agree with that?

>anyway, i think we're discussing a very small detail, but
>it's one that i've been quite emotional about in the past,
>in the process of reckoning out my whiteness in brown
>settings

i can understand that
were you almost doomed to marry a brown man? :) (we can take this to the inbox if you want)

I'll try to check out the post in the archives

>but i was truly amazed by the degree of integration i saw in
>europe- very drastically different from america.

Yes? I think it is very much because of what i said before, that racism isn't as institutionalized in Europe. It is more about the money.. and even on that topic, my country (and other scandinavian countries) is can be heaven to the poor man - we are a welfare state deluxe. Because of that, and the fact that immigrants are (but have been more in the past, i think) given financial backup in the beginning, few immigrants are allowed to enter, but many of those who do soon do it very well. The problems, at least within the pakistani minority, is more about cultural identity and being a minority than it is about the system holding you down (of course the system DOES favorize ethnically norwegians much, and being a minority automatically puts you in a europe-wide stereotype of being poor and therefore criminal, althou efforts are being used to stop it - you see job offerings saying "Individuals of immigrant background are encouraged to apply.")

There's been very loud country-wide debates about integration, with "foreign-fearers" often saying immigrants are accepted as long as they integrate as much as possible. Most won't fully integrate, many live a double-life where they are western at work but they live their own culture at home and with family.

There have been many debates about issues like how to deal with what is seen as a crime in norway but is more commonly accepted in other cultures (and then those acts being done by immigrants in norway).. they (intellectuals, representatives of immigrants and the police) have agreed to aproach it with very much respect but still following the norwegian law. In some cases it means they walk on a thin line.

There's been written long books about it. The conclution in a famous one is that cultural variety has to be charished and encouraged and accepted, and it WILL be, as long as the norwegian authorities and norwegian people show respect and understanding. Like he said it himself: "This conclution is written as propaganda for an open ghetto solution where the moral is decentralized and where the thousand flowers are allowed to flourish, where cultural conflicts occurs of necessity because anything else would require a brutal cultural unidirection that is directed by the state."

....but it depends on who is integrating. It is easier for an eastern european - to them it becomes almost like an european going to america, there is a larger difference for a person from sri lanka.

->       ->       ->       ->       ->       ->       ->
    you will always go where the arrow points.

pen jakke:          , , , (snip),
                         (snip), (tungtvann feat pen jakke)