>>Reply: Wisdom is the one identified as understanding in
>>Prov 8:14. Knowledge is never personified, so it is not an
>>issue. Yes, you do not peronify people, but people
>>personify things, and Jesus is the personifier of wisdom.
>
>Response: Bad arguement you cannot just pick and chose when
>you want to start personifing things, if by wisdom God
>performed some acts and wisdom is a person, then guess what
>you need to explain who are knowledge and understanding.
>And people cannot become personifiers I think you made up
>something there. YOu personify inanimate objects such as
>rivers,rocks etc, not people. Clealy, your theology is
>driving you to this conclusion.
>>

Reply2: I'm not picking it, I'm going by whether or not scripture does it! Simply because scripture mentions something does not make it personified. People are not being personified, the attributes are being personified IN Christ.

>>Regarding Wisdom being a she, that is only because CHOKMAH
>>is feminine in Hebrew. Is Solomon a she because he is
>>called congregator, which is feminine in Hebrew?
>
>Response: Ahh but here is the difference, Solomon is never
>refered to by a personal pronoun *she* wisdom is. Sorry.

Reply2: This argument does not help your position. Grammatically, the congregator is a she. The only reason it is not rendered as such is because Solomon is indentified as such. The translators are following the GRAMMATICAL gender, because Wisdom in Hebrew is feminine. Obviously you've never studied any Hebrew.

>
> Or how
>>about Naphtali who in Genesis 49:21 is called a female deer
>>who produces fawns!? Rather, we know the one spoken of in
>>Proverbs 8, though grammatically is feminine, has a natural
>>masculine gender. We know this because in verse 30, the
>>masculine AMON is used instead of the feminine AMONAH, where
>>Wisdom is called either little child or master worker,
>>depending on the translation (either are possible).
>
>Response: Titles can be feminine but Naphtali is not called
>her, or she or anything like wisdom is. By the way proverbs
>tells us that wisdom stands on the corner and shouts in the
>streets did Christ do this? And when it says to obtain
>wisdom are we to go grab Christ? and as far as it having a
>masculine gender does that mean now that Christ was both
>feminine and masculine at the same time? And are
>understanding and knowledge Peter and JOhn or are they Mark
>and Luke maybe they are Gabriel.

Reply2: Again, you must distringuish between the attribute and the one in whom it is personified. Christ, as a spirit, does not technically have gender, if you want to be technical. CHOKMAH is a feminine noun, so grammatically it MUST be rendered in the feminine. Thus calling wisdom SHE has NO bearing on the natural gender of the person. However, using the masculine AMON was a decision, showing the NATURAL gender to be masculine, while only the grammar is feminine.

>
>>Reply: Let us see if that holds true.
>
>Response: Before I respond to the bottom, I notice that you
>said let's see if it holds true but did not address the
>context of 1 Cor, that should be how we know if it holds
>true, but oh well. Guess I'll do that tonight when I get my
>Bible.
>>
>>The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1)
>>Wisdom was in the beginning (Prov. 8:22-23, Sir. 1:4, Wis.
>>9:9)
>
>Response: Actually in Proverbs it says that the wisdom was
>at teh beginnign of God's ways, JOhn 1:1 does not say such.
>By the way should'nt there at least be a quote from John 1:1
>of Proverbs 8?

Reply2: Yes, and thus Wisdom = beginning, just like Christ = beginning (Rev 3:14).

>
>>The Word was with God (John 1:1)
>
>>Wisdom was with God (Prov. 8:30, Sir. 1:1, Wis. 9:4)
>>The Word is an agent in creation (John 1:1-3)
>
>Response: And wisdom was also a girl standing on a street
>corner.

Reply2: GRAMMATICAL gender. It is just like in Greek... Though maybe you've not really studied Greek either. I'm starting to get that impression.

>
>>The Word provides light (John 1:4, 9)
>>Wisdom provides light (Prov. 8:22, Wis. 7:26, 8:13; Sir.
>>4:12)
>
>Response: Actually the Logos was the light itself and it
>also provided light wisdom is nto the light itself.

Reply2: Actually, Jesus reflects God's glory (Heb 1:3) as does Wisdom (Wisdom 7:26)



>>Word as light in contrast to darkness (John 1:5)
>>Wisdom as light in contrast to darkness (Wis. 7:29-30)
>>The Word was in the world (John 1:10)
>
>Response; Whatever book Wis is I probably don't hold it to
>be canonical, sorry. Need to stay inbounds here. ANd
>before you start argueing about some book being canonical
>let's hold it till later.

Reply2: Why? The LOGOS was adopted by John from Philo. We are considering the Jewish mindset.

>
>
>>Wisdom was in the world (Wis. 8:1, Sir. 24:6)
>
>Response: Sorry I don't know what WIS and SIR are, unless
>those are Hebrew titles, and i am without my BHS until I get
>home.
>
>>The Word was rejected by its own (John 1:11)
>>Wisdom was rejected by its own (Sir. 15:7)
>>The Word was received by the faithful (John 1:12)
>>Wisdom was received by the faithful (Wis. 7:27)
>
>Response: Buzz, out of scripture, unless those are Hebrew
>titles those are not regarded as canonical.
>
>>Christ is the bread of life (John 6:35)
>>Wisdom is the bread or substance of life (Prov. 9:5, Sir.
>>15:3, 24:21, 29:21; Wis. 11:4)
>
>Response: In Prov 9 Wisdom is also a girl. and SIr and wis,
>well ya know the rest.

Reply2: Is that the best you can do? Wisdom is a girl GRAMMATICALLY, that does not mean naturally. Jesus is called Wisdom in Greek, and the noun is feminine in Greek too! This means nothing, it is no basis for argument.


>
>>The parallels between Jesus and Wisdom cannot be missed.
>
>Respnose: Sure there are'nt any. By the way I erased the
>rest because I keep having the same answers if there one you
>really want me to respond to put it back up. Especially
>when I have my Bible in front of me.

Reply2: You are in denial. You dismiss points based on opinion and assumption, not on text. You make arguments that have no foundation, such as the feminine issue, ignoring the fact that to anyone who knows even a little Hebrew, this is a non-issue. The feminine/masculine thing is entirely grammatical, and it has no basis whether or not Jesus is male or female.

-Tony