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Topic subjectR.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
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6764, R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by poetx, Fri Oct-25-02 06:51 AM
Plane Chartered by Wellstone Crashes
2 minutes ago

EVELETH, Minn. (AP) - A plane chartered by Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., crashed Friday and everyone aboard died, a Transportation Department official said. Wellstone was one of eight people listed on the trip manifest.



i'll conspiracize later, but for now, just damn.

dude was definitely one of the most independent thinkers in washington.

peace & blessings,

x.
6765, that is so sad.
Posted by ororo_munroe, Fri Oct-25-02 06:53 AM
-
6766, Tragic...
Posted by alyzen, Fri Oct-25-02 09:04 AM
he was one of the only really principled members of the Senate -- always a fighter for the right causes, and by all accounts, a truly good-hearted person.

It's sad.
6767, I mean no disrespect...
Posted by dhalgren718, Fri Oct-25-02 09:12 AM
... but it's too convenient that the Senate hangs in the balance, and suddenly one of the most liberal Senators and his whole family is killed in a plane crash. Were this indeed a conspiracy, killing the man and his whole family would be a very telling message to the liberals to 'stay in line'.

I'm terribly sorry at his passing... without too much melodrama, I pray his death is not a harbinger for things to come.
6768, The Media is lying
Posted by undaground_ish, Fri Oct-25-02 10:28 AM
the plane didnt crash becus of bad weather. I checked weather for Eveleth,MN and theres no mention of freezing rain in the area. The forecast is for snow later tonite. There was NO freezing rain OR snow in Eveleth when the plane went down. Shit, even the fuckin weather channel didnt report any bad weather in the area, i checked at about 1 P.M. (PDT) and they showed weather for the last 6 hours and there was NO rain/snow in upper Minnesota, the ONLY rain/snow they showed was a small patch in the lower eastern part of Minnesota. These mufuckas straight lyin. And they said they were in contact with Wellstone and the plane up until *7* minutes before it was to land, so bad weather developed a mintue after they lost contact and caused the plane to crash?

About 20 minutes ago on CNN they said investigators were on there way to Eveleth, but changed their course becus the weather was too bad, bullshit. The weather in Eveleth right now is mostly cloudy with drizzle, last i checked planes dont stop flyin when its cloudy or theres drizzle.
6769, RE: The Media is lying
Posted by nyc_rootsfan, Fri Oct-25-02 10:33 AM
ok..its not like small planes crash all the time..
and its not like this guy was a threat to anyone..so whats your theory?

let me guess it revolves around the cia and or gwb..
6770, dun, you have to admit that this just screams
Posted by poetx, Fri Oct-25-02 10:44 AM
conspiracy, even if there is none.

* only senator to oppose the iraq war resolution (don't know if he was the only one -- i'll check on that. )

* he was the furthest to the political left of anyone in the senate.

* wife was in the plane (so there'll be no repeat of the mel carnihan deal where the deadman/wife ticket still beat our atty general asscroft).

* dems hold a one vote majority in the senate, and his race was being touted (as recently as the day before on npr) as not only a crucial one for control of the senate, but as a referendum on the whole iraq war

if we stop shy of one 'c' word, i'm sure we can agree that, for the current administration, this was at least another one: "convenient". meanwhile the faustian pact is intact for good ol' strom and jessie (although libbie is running to fill the spot he's finally vacating).

just mad convenient.








6771, it's true...
Posted by Spoken Conscience, Fri Oct-25-02 12:56 PM
...like everything else, I doubt that Bush had direct knowledge of what happened, but it is seriously fishy that this CNN story on the crash:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/25/plane.crash.minn/index.html

seriously contradicts the NOAA weather report for Minnesota here:
http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/KEVM.html

more specifically this chart:
Time
EST (UTC) Temperature
F (C) Dew Point
F (C) Pressure
Inches (hPa) Wind
MPH Weather
Latest 3 PM (20) Oct 25 35 (2) 33 (1) 29.98 (1015) Calm light drizzle
2 PM (19) Oct 25 35 (2) 33 (1) 29.99 (1015) S 3 light drizzle
1 PM (18) Oct 25 35 (2) 33 (1) 30 (1015) SSE 3 light drizzle
Noon (17) Oct 25 35 (2) 33 (1) 30.03 (1016) SE 3 light snow
11 AM (16) Oct 25 33 (1) 32 (0) 30.03 (1016) Calm light snow
10 AM (15) Oct 25 33 (1) 30 (-1) 30.05 (1017) Calm mist
9 AM (14) Oct 25 32 (0) 30 (-1) 30.08 (1018) Calm light snow
8 AM (13) Oct 25 30 (-1) 28 (-2) 30.1 (1019) Calm light snow
7 AM (12) Oct 25 28 (-2) 26 (-3) 30.11 (1019) Calm light snow
6 AM (11) Oct 25 30 (-1) 26 (-3) 30.13 (1020) Calm mist
5 AM (10) Oct 25 28 (-2) 24 (-4) 30.14 (1020) Calm
4 AM (9) Oct 25 28 (-2) 24 (-4) 30.15 (1020) ENE 3
3 AM (8) Oct 25 26 (-3) 23 (-5) 30.16 (1021) Calm
2 AM (7) Oct 25 26 (-3) 21 (-6) 30.17 (1021) Calm
1 AM (6) Oct 25 24 (-4) 21 (-6) 30.18 (1022) Calm
Midnight (5) Oct 25 23 (-5) 19 (-7) 30.18 (1022) Calm

CNN and the Washington Post gave good coverage of the actual crash, and implicit in WP's coverage is "this couldn't have happened". And let's not forget that Wellstone was the most liberal member of the Senate, and that there is no ready replacement for him in Minnesota, where an independent is governor. It all just fits together a tad TOO well...



6772, looks like some one is subscribing
Posted by delafro, Fri Oct-25-02 03:47 PM
to the Coulter theory of politics("kill the liberals to initimidate them"). Hoo boy.
6773, huh?!
Posted by Spoken Conscience, Fri Oct-25-02 04:06 PM
i AGREE that there was a conspiracy, don't get it twisted. i listed those facts to back it up. the actual data says the weather was clear, but the media claims there was a storm. the wash. post admits that the crash couldn't happen as the narrative has been written, yet still clings to the party line. people need to learn how to interpret facts.

6774, reports might change w/ time
Posted by LexM, Fri Oct-25-02 04:39 PM
u know how that goes

the first reports are usually either the most accurate or most inaccurate.

we'll just have to wait & see

_____________________________

6775, Yes, that's true, but...
Posted by Spoken Conscience, Fri Oct-25-02 04:50 PM
...they were LYING! do you understand? the weather reports clearly said it was smooth sailing, and CNN is talking like there were storms. read the wash. post story where it says that it's virtually impossible for that type of plane to ice up anyway. i wish you all had seen the guy on fox news shocked saying "i am a politician, i fly in that type of plane all the time, and it is the safest plane up there!" this reminds me of when the plane fell out of the sky over brooklyn last october. shit just don't happen that way!

6776, dude from missouri
Posted by delafro, Sat Oct-26-02 08:36 AM
who faced off against Ashcroft died the same way


here's some more stuff


previous assination attempt?
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/12/01/colombia.wellstone.03/


http://www.americas.org/news/nir/20001210_herbicide_douses_u_s_senator.asp



Mysterious Group Opposes Wellstone

http://startribune.com/stories/587/3382739.html
6777, good looks on the NOAA report.
Posted by poetx, Sat Oct-26-02 09:31 AM
i'll check the links, too...
6778, i don't think he was the only one
Posted by LexM, Fri Oct-25-02 04:38 PM
maybe the most vocal

but several senators voted against bush's resolution, including the 2 from maryland. (my senators also voted against operation TIPS). now how much they've actually spoken out, i don't know.

this is very very strange to me. almost like those high level govt. officials who retire & are found dead of "heart attacks" a few weeks later...

_____________________________

6779, or that Enron dude
Posted by delafro, Fri Oct-25-02 07:49 PM
who comitted "suicide"
6780, RE: i don't think he was the only one
Posted by pdafunk, Sat Oct-26-02 03:38 AM
i don't know if he was the only one, but a lot of dems said they'd support the war only if the UN okayed it, whereas wellstone was saying 'NO!'. gotta respect him for sticking by his guns. my hope is that other dems see what happened, realize what wellstone stood for, and keep his memory going by not blindly supporting bush.
6781, ok i see what you're saying
Posted by LexM, Sun Oct-27-02 04:05 AM
_____________________________

6782, on review, he was the only one to vote against
Posted by poetx, Sat Oct-26-02 09:29 AM
Bush who was facing re-election.


6783, good shit.
Posted by Guinness, Fri Oct-25-02 09:03 PM
these are at least thought out theories, unlike the lunacy that usually transpires in these corners.

but yeah, carnihan died in a crash a week before an election against bush's ace (ashcroft). and wellstone, the only candidate in a tight race who voted against war, dies a week before his elections.

as you said, the "c word" is probably "convenient", but i'm really crestfallen at the way this nation is being completely hijacked by the interests of big business, the wealthy, and the religious right. it's sickening.



6784, RE: R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by BMWK, Fri Oct-25-02 09:20 PM
From what I understand, Wellstone spoke out against Bush and didn't agree with his administration...speak out against Bush...pay the consequences....bloods and crips aint got shit on Bush...biggest thug in existence....plus the whole democrat, republic crap...I'm not a political person but I know a lot of shady shit goes on...






"I was taught to rhyme undeniably, and force niggaz to think
So if you need to dance so fuckin much then buy Nsync" - Ras Kass...

6785, Just like i said
Posted by undaground_ish, Sat Oct-26-02 12:07 PM
the media lied, specifically CNN, there was NO bad weather in Eveleth when the plane crashed. Also, can we say CONTRADICTORY!

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/102502_nw_senator_plane_crash.html

"Wellstone's pilot had reported no problems before the crash and there was no severe weather in the area at the time, the Federal Aviation Administration said. Because of overcast conditions, the plane would have been on instrument approach at the time of the crash."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/25/plane.crash.minn/index.html

"The plane went down in snowy, frozen rain and then burst into flames in a wooded area about 7 miles east of Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport. Officials said the last contact with the plane was at 10:20 a.m. CDT when the plane was about 2 miles from the airport."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

"The weather in the Eveleth area was so bad hours after the crash that a 12-person National Transportation Safety Board team was to fly from Washington into Duluth instead of Eveleth."

One more lie, the weather when the "National Transportation Safety Board team" was on there way to Eveleth was 36F, cloudy with light drizzle......yeah, sounds like HORRIBLE weather.





6786, One more thing
Posted by undaground_ish, Sat Oct-26-02 08:00 PM
how the fuck did they find the plane 7 miles frum the Eveleth airport in a wooded area, when officials said they lost contact when they were *2* miles frum the airport, whut the fuck did they do, turn the fuckin plane around when they were about to land, why would they do that? Shit dont make no sense. CNN is on sum bullshit.
6787, ok ok ok
Posted by foxnesn, Sat Oct-26-02 04:48 PM
lets think about this. now its easy to say it was a conspiracy because a democrat died who opposed the war. but isnt is just a possible, if not more likely that it WAS a freak accident. i mean politicians fly in those small jets all the time and plane crashes are bound to happen at some point.
6788, hey. all i did was lay out the
Posted by poetx, Sun Oct-27-02 03:57 AM
circumstances and point out, rather obviously, that, if any senator were to say, just happen to die in a freak plane crash, sen. wellstone (who was one of the most principled members in the senate, notwithstanding his staunch opposition to the war and damn near everything else on the bush agenda) would be one of the most 'convenient'.

i don't know that wellstone had done anything that would warrant assassination, but, i ain't ruling it out. in my mind, this could have been a freak of politics as easily as a freak of weather.


6789, i think thats a good way to look at it
Posted by foxnesn, Sun Oct-27-02 08:43 AM
cause its so easy to blame some crazy event on curropt politicians. but people die all the time and over time its going to effect somebody important.
6790, they represented for him @ the march
Posted by LexM, Sun Oct-27-02 04:07 AM
lots of folks had pictures & signs w/ him on there

sen. mckinnley referred to him in her speech
6791, excellent. i'm expecting a post on your
Posted by poetx, Sun Oct-27-02 07:25 AM
observations/thoughts from the march?


6792, in related news (cuz its all related), bush
Posted by poetx, Sun Oct-27-02 07:33 AM
has announced that the US will attack Iraq anyway, if the UN doesn't come up with a strong enough resolution. damn, way to represent our democratic freedoms, dawg.

he came out and said we're going to attack iraq.

his own cabinet, not to mention most of the people on the planet said this was wrong, and urged him to work through the un.

they grudgingly went to the un, made speeches, and presented a bunch of lies and half-truths (vis a vis iraq's current weapons capabilities and links to al-qaeda).

france, russia, and china (ie, 3 of the 5 permanent security panel members w/ veto power) said, we're not going to go for the okeydoke and give the us carte blance to do what its already stated it wanted to do (bombs over baghdad). they demur, and counter with the suggestion that inspections resume prior to any announcement of punishment for non-compliance with said inspections.

bush halfheartedly tries to curry favor w/ france, russia, china. after meeting w/ chinese president, the announcement is made that if UN, which is supposed to represent the world, doesn't do what ONE country in the world (us) wants, we will attack iraq anyway with our rag-tag coalition of ex-colonial empires, and arab-uncle-tom states.

good shit, indeed.
6793, RE: R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by northsidehoney33, Sun Oct-27-02 01:38 PM
up. Senator Wellstone was often the only voice of dissent in Congress.

I'm very scared to think about the void he is leaving-- who will set the moral bar?
6794, RE: Damn ya'll
Posted by Rexdale, Sun Oct-27-02 07:21 PM
I ain't got T.V. no more, so i'm not up to date, but with all these things happening (sniper, possible iraq war, this senator's death), for real, this is a SERIOUS TIME IN HISTORY ya'll, a brother is scared still. I might have to leave Canada and head to Africa and wait for shit to end there.
6795, There is a big void left from the untimely absence of S
Posted by DeRayeMustafa, Mon Oct-28-02 06:59 AM
I think they're trying to get Mondale to run in his place. Mondale had my vote against Reagan back in what, 83-84, but I was way too young to vote then. I guess Mondale will have my vot in '02 cause I ain't voting for Coleman.

By the way, I notice "Northside" in your moniker. Would that be the Northside of the 612? Just wondering. Its always good to see a local person in here! :)
---------------------------(*)---------------------------
Remember Innocent Until Proven Guilty? Is it just me or was that just a rumor?

©2002 DeRaye Lecarlos Miller
6796, Activist = Conspiracy Central
Posted by Expertise, Sun Oct-27-02 07:35 PM
It is indeed sad when any person loses their life in an accident, but lets be realistic here....Wellstone wasn't scaring anyone. Actually the people of Minnesota acted as if they were fed up with him and were about to give him the boot for Coleman anyway. Wellstone really didn't have that much stroke in the Senate, or else he would have had more followers than he did.
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6797, I dont think so
Posted by delafro, Sun Oct-27-02 07:52 PM
despite Bush's acceptance and special interests millions, Wellstone was most definitely hanging in there against Coleman.
6798, RE: I dont think so
Posted by Expertise, Sun Oct-27-02 08:16 PM
As if Wellstone wasn't backed by the labor and teachers' unions, along with the environmental groups? Get real.

The fact was, there was a huge chance that Wellstone was going to get knocked off. It made no sense to kill him when he was about to be a non factor at the end of the year anyway.
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6799, Dispelling disinformation
Posted by ahmsofunky, Sun Oct-27-02 10:13 PM
The Wellstone-Coleman battle was a dead heat. Let not the lie be told, not here.

6800, there isn't a lie.
Posted by Expertise, Mon Oct-28-02 06:05 AM
I never said Coleman was leading in the polls. I said there was a good chance that Minnesota was going to boot him out of office.
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6801, And you expect the war machine...
Posted by Archaic, Mon Oct-28-02 07:13 AM
to just leave things to chance?

Sorry, but that's not how these people operate.

And why some of you feel the need to give these folks the benefit of the doubt, time and time again, is beyond me.
6802, RE: And you expect the war machine...
Posted by Expertise, Mon Oct-28-02 07:34 AM
*LOL* this is so stupid. It's like you guys can never accept reality, so you have to create your own. Wellstone wasn't a threat in Congress. He was mostly a loner because of his far left extremist politics. The Republicans, in retrospect, would have LOVED for Wellstone to stay in the public picture because he wouldn't have gotten anywhere and would have brought the Democrats down. Even if he won reelection in Minnesota it would have fared bad for him because it looks like he isn't getting as much support as he should. He had already lied about a term limits pledge, in which he was only supposed to serve 2 terms, in which Coleman was eating him up for. Wellstone would have been better off alive than dead to the Republicans.

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6803, RE: And you expect the war machine...
Posted by Archaic, Mon Oct-28-02 09:26 AM
Stupid, ha? Look Adolf, I have an open mind. If the truth winds up that it was just a mechanical failure then I can accept that. But in my mind the jury is still out. Why? Because the media was so blatant in its lies about the weather. That plus the Republicans have been openly gunning for Wellstone for quite some time now. Therefore motive is established in addition to yet another fishy cover-up.

But you on the other hand seem to be ruling out any possibility other than the one presented by the media. Forget that it's already well established that the media has told at least one major lie regarding the plane crash. Forget that the death of Wellstone benefits the agendas of certain Republicans in power. Just believe anything that Dan Rather dishes out. That's what a good American would do...

I guess you're also going to tell me that it would be possible for the aprehended snipers to shoot their rifles with precision from the trunk of that tiny car...

And Santa Clause will be coming down each of our chimneys pretty soon as well...



6804, nice try
Posted by delafro, Mon Oct-28-02 09:08 AM
as far as money goes, Coleman had the huge edge. A for effort though. Most (well, at least a lot) of Wellstone's money came from small private donations.
6805, RE: nice try
Posted by pdafunk, Mon Oct-28-02 11:58 AM
did any of you hear about the $1 million anonymous donation to norm coleman's campaign a few days before the attack. thru a loophole, the organization didn't have to reveal where the funding came from. just wondering what y'all thought.
6806, link
Posted by delafro, Mon Oct-28-02 01:58 PM
http://startribune.com/stories/587/3382739.html




6807, are you sure??
Posted by love2000, Mon Oct-28-02 12:42 PM
From what I've read (and you can't believe everything you read), he scared a lot of people....

http://chicago.indymedia.org:8081//front.php3?article_id=15017
6808, That's funny
Posted by DeRayeMustafa, Mon Oct-28-02 01:14 PM
I live in Minnesota and as far as I knew a lot of Minnesotans still supported him.
---------------------------(*)---------------------------
Remember Innocent Until Proven Guilty? Is it just me or was that just a rumor?

©2002 DeRaye Lecarlos Miller
6809, Maybe
Posted by injyl, Mon Oct-28-02 05:21 PM

COLEMAN OR WHOEVER WAS RUNNING AGAINST HIM CAN BE LIKE JOHN ASHCROFT & LOOSE TO A DEAD GUY...

NO DISRESPECT TO THE DEAD GUY :(

*ITS LIKE EVERY WHERE I GO I SEE THE SAME POOO O OOOSTs*
6810, naw, they 'convenienced' his wife, too.
Posted by poetx, Tue Oct-29-02 05:10 AM
so there won't be any Jean Carnihan haps around here. (they're trying to re-animate Walter Mondale to run in his place, though).

Expertise, you're entirely right to point out that this is all speculation. I even said as much. The gist is that it could be indicative of a nefarious plot, or merely, a highly convenient set of circumstances for the folks running the country. Don't front like the republicans wouldn't have minded if he won, however. The Nation article referenced clearly that Wellstone was Karl Rove's number 1 (political) target. Even if you don't want to trust the Nation's reporting, from 'sources' within the republican party, you must concede that the amount of money that they've poured into Norm Coleman's campaign is indicative of an intense desire to oust Wellstone.

Does that intense desire necessarily translate into someone sabotaging his plane? Nah. But that's also not an impossibility. Just like that Enron official that just up and decided to kill himself, when he was already on record as a dissenter from their sheisty dealings and would have likely been courted as a gov't witness rather than a prosecution target. Did someone 'off' him? To my mind, probably, but we'll suffice it to say that if he did actually kill himself, the confluence of the facts surrounding the case made his death mad convenient for the Ken Lay's and Jeff Fastows who would have been implicated had he tuned states' evidence.

x.
6811, RE: naw, they 'convenienced' his wife, too.
Posted by Expertise, Tue Oct-29-02 07:54 PM
They poured money into the campaign because it is a swing state that could give the Republicans control of the Senate.

Of course they want to oust Wellstone, because he's a Democrat. The less Democrats, the better. But to claim it was a conspiracy because of Wellstone's "dangerous" politics is ridiculous, when Wellstone posed a threat to noone, can barely win reelection in his own state, IF he was to win in the first place, and alot of times was on the minority end of key legislative proposals.


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6812, don't get it twisted.
Posted by poetx, Wed Oct-30-02 06:58 AM
>Of course they want to oust Wellstone, because he's a
>Democrat. The less Democrats, the better. But to claim it
>was a conspiracy because of Wellstone's "dangerous" politics
>is ridiculous, when Wellstone posed a threat to noone, can
>barely win reelection in his own state, IF he was to win in
>the first place, and alot of times was on the minority end
>of key legislative proposals.

i'm not suggesting that wellstone was some kind of messiah or anything. maybe more of a john the baptist, as he was very much a voice in the wilderness of the right-centrist DLC which has left most of us with even less choice within this corrupt and self-preserving two party duopoly.

and, again, i wasn't saying that it was definitely an assassination, but more that the confluence of events are more than enough to have me thinking, "hmmmm..." like vintage arsenio. its speculation. but if it was cool for right-wingers to speculate over that whitewater cat who got suspiciously deaded when clinton was elected, i definitely find this to be within the bounds.

the similar death mel carnahan a couple of years ago just pushes my suspicion meter up, that's all. hey, if trent lott or strom thurmond go down, we'll call it even.

on the real, though, while too much speculation and cynicism can be healthy and diversionary, we definitely have to maintain some degree of cynicism about our government in this country. i mean, who would have dreamed (besides raving left-wingers) that the Gulf of Tonkin incident didn't go down as 'we' were told years ago?

the CIA, at the least, has a documented history of using assassination as a destabilizing tool internationally. this isn't "the gubmint tryna control my mind through the cable tv box" ish that i'm talking... a dead senator, at a time when the president is pushing hard for a completely unnecessary and unwarranted war (to distract from not only the administration's woeful mismanagement of the economy, but also the complicity of many of its key players) is a damn good thing to speculate upon.




peace & blessings,

x.
6813, RE: R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by undaground_ish, Tue Oct-29-02 07:14 PM
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct2002/well-o29.shtml

The death of US Senator Paul Wellstone: accident or murder?

By the Editorial Board
29 October 2002


There is a serious question about the sudden death of Democratic Senator Paul Wellstone that has no doubt occurred to many people: was Wellstone the victim of a political assassination?

It is possible that there will emerge a credible explanation of the October 25 plane crash that killed Wellstone, his wife Sheila, daughter Marcia, and five others near Eveleth, Minnesota. Initial reports, however, are disturbing. None of the typical causes of a small plane accident—engine failure, icing, pilot error—appear to be involved.

The plane, a twin-engine Beechcraft King Air A100, was apparently in good condition when it hit the ground and exploded into flames about two miles from the Eveleth-Virginia airport in the Minnesota iron range. The Beechcraft model has an excellent safety record, with only two fatal crashes—both in December 1997—in the past six years. Debris recovered from the crash site includes both the plane’s engines, which suffered blade damage, suggesting that the engines were running when the plane crashed.

While weather conditions were less than ideal, with some ice and freezing rain, two smaller Beech Queen Air planes had landed at Eveleth without incident two hours before the crash, when temperatures were colder. Wellstone’s plane was reportedly equipped with two separate de-icing mechanisms.

Visibility was limited but well above the minimum required—between two and two and a half miles. Although the approach to the airport was being made using instruments, the airport would have been in clear view of the pilot once he descended below the lowest cloud layer at about 700 feet.

The plane’s two pilots were both experienced, with the senior man, Capt. Richard Conry, 55, having airline transport pilot certification, the top industry qualification. Co-pilot Michael Guess, 30, was a certified commercial pilot. Wellstone was by all accounts a cautious flier, and there is no suggestion that the decision to fly that day was a reckless one.

The acting chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board, Carol Carmody, said there was a slight irregularity in the Eveleth airport’s radio beacon, but it was not yet possible to say whether this contributed to the accident.

The plane’s altimeter and “possibly one other gauge” have been recovered and sent to the NTSB lab in Washington for analysis, Carmody said. The plane was not required to have a cockpit voice recorder and was not equipped with one.

According to air traffic control records, the flight had proceeded without incident until its last moments. Wellstone’s plane took off at 9:37 a.m. from Minneapolis-St. Paul, received permission to climb to 13,000 feet at 9:48 a.m., and received clearance to descend towards Eveleth at 10:01 a.m., at which time the pilot was told there was icing at the 9,000-11,000 foot level. The plane began its descent at 10:10 a.m., passed through the icing altitude without apparent difficulty, and at 10:18 a.m. was cleared for approach to the airport. A minute later, at 3,500 feet, the plane began to drift away from the runway. It was last sighted at 10:21 a.m., flying at 1,800 feet.

Carmody said that the impact area was 300 feet by 190 feet, with evidence of “extreme post-crash fire.” The plane apparently was headed south, away from the Eveleth runway, when it hit the ground. “The angle was steeper than would be expected in a normal stabilized standardized approach,” she said. Some press reports cited eyewitness accounts of a near-vertical plunge.

Under different political circumstances it might be possible to dismiss the Eveleth crash as a tragic accident whose causes, even if they cannot be precisely determined, lie in the sphere of aircraft engineering and weather phenomena. But the death of Paul Wellstone takes place under conditions in which far too many strange things are happening in America.

Wellstone’s death comes almost two years to the day after a similar plane crash killed another Democratic Senate hopeful locked in a tight election contest, Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, on October 16, 2000. The American media duly noted the “eerie coincidence,” as though it was a statistical oddity, rather than suggesting a pattern.

One might say, paraphrasing Oscar Wilde, that to lose one senator is a misfortune, but to lose two senators, the same way, is positively suspicious.

Last year two leading Senate Democrats, Majority Leader Tom Daschle and Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, were targeted for assassination with letters laced with anthrax. The federal Justice Department—headed by John Ashcroft, who lost to the deceased Mel Carnahan in the Missouri contest—has failed to apprehend the anthrax mailer.

Wellstone was in a hotly contested reelection campaign, but polls showed he was beginning to pull ahead of Republican nominee Norm Coleman, the former mayor of St. Paul, in the wake of the vote in the Senate to authorize President Bush to wage war against Iraq. The liberal Democrat was a well-publicized opponent of the war resolution, the only Senator in a tight race to vote against it.

More broadly, with the Senate controlled by the Democrats by a margin of 50-49, the loss of even a single seat could shift control to the Republicans. The immediate effect of Wellstone’s death is to deprive the Democrats of a majority in the lame-duck session scheduled for late November.

Without exaggerating Wellstone’s personal significance—he was a conventional bourgeois politician and no threat to the profit system—there are enormous financial stakes involved in control of the Senate. Republican control of the Senate would make it possible to push through new tax cuts for the wealthy and other perks for corporate America worth billions of dollars—more than enough of an incentive to commit murder.

The neo-fascist elements within and around the Republican Party have already demonstrated their contempt for democracy, first in the protracted campaign of political destabilization against the Clinton administration, then with the theft of the 2000 presidential election. They are now preparing to slaughter tens of thousands of Iraqis in order to grab control of the second largest oil reserves in the world. To imagine that they would suffer moral qualms over a conveniently timed plane crash would be naïve in the extreme.

There is another curious and suggestive factor. Virtually every day the Bush administration issues warnings of terrorist attacks on trains, nuclear reactors, airports or government buildings, to keep the American people off balance and stampede the public into supporting the impending war against Iraq. Government officials are prepared to attribute virtually any act of violence—such as the Washington sniper shootings—to Al Qaeda. Yet there has been no suggestion that the destruction of Wellstone’s plane was the result of terrorism. Perhaps in this case they prefer not to inquire too closely into the causes.

In the current climate of war, repression and right-wing provocation, it is perfectly reasonable to ask whether Wellstone was the victim of a political killing. No investigation deserving of the name can exclude sabotage as a possible cause of the plane crash. And yet, given the cowardice of the Democratic Party and the advanced putrefaction of American democracy, the official investigation will in all probability conclude that Wellstone’s death was the result of an unfortunate but unexplainable mechanical malfunction.





6814, RE: R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by ahmsofunky, Wed Oct-30-02 04:45 AM
this is the last word right here. basically, the death of a senator under unusual circumstances warrants an open and honest investigation, something this adminstration is not known for.

6815, ok why am i JUST
Posted by LexM, Wed Oct-30-02 04:44 AM
seeing shit on the news about this??

usually the day after they're doing the sappy tribute.

i'm just seeing that kind of press this morning.

_____________________________


"The Bush team does not want you to know that Iraq does not pose a grave threat to the United States of America. Iraq has been effectively contained by the sanctions, and the weapons inspectors virtually annihilated whatever weapons program they had. Whatever they might have been able to squirrel away is now junk, because the chemistry of the stuff they were trying to make dictates that it ceases to be effective after a couple of years. They do not have any missile technology. They certainly do not have any connections to Al Qaeda - Saddam Hussein has been viciously and vigorously repressing Islamic fundamentalism in his own country... If Hussein were to give Al Qaeda weapons of mass destruction, they would use those weapons on him first... Also, the politics and cultural facts of the region, this pipedream of democracy in Iraq, that we're going to institute a regime change and create western style democracy, is laughable... If we were to give them western style democracy, they would immediately align themselves with Iran and create a strategic issue that is ten times as bad as the one we have now." ~





6816, Ted Rall: THE (POSSIBLE) ASSASSINATION OF PAUL WELL...
Posted by MicheleQJ, Wed Oct-30-02 06:04 AM
THE (POSSIBLE) ASSASSINATION OF PAUL WELLSTONE
Tue Oct 29,10:04 PM ET
By Ted Rall

George W. Bush's Legacy of Cynicism and Contempt

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/021030/7/2k5lk.html

George W. Bush and his henchmen stole the presidency. They threw thousands of innocent people into prison without even charging them with a crime. They're gearing up to invade Iraq without bothering to come up with a substantial justification. Now some Democrats and progressive Americans are asking the unthinkable about an administration they increasingly believe to be ruled by thugs and renegades. Did government gangsters murder the United States' most liberal legislator?


Talk of foul play began hours after Senator Paul Wellstone's plane went down over northeastern Minnesota on Oct. 25, killing him, his wife and his daughter, along with three staffers and two pilots. "Please tell me I'm wrong to be thinking what I'm thinking," a self-described "liberal Democrat" from St. Paul e-mailed me that evening. "I want to be wrong, but I wouldn't put it past the Republicans--THESE Republicans--to sabotage Wellstone's plane." Internet discussion groups and e-mail in-boxes quickly echoed her sentiment.


People expressed similar fears after Commerce Secretary Ron Brown and Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan (news - web sites) died in plane crashes--the latter weeks before facing an election challenge from future Bush Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites)--but the whispers of assassination following the Wellstone tragedy are more widespread and gaining mainstream currency far beyond the usual conspiracy nuts.


A Convenient Death


The Minnesota senator's death certainly comes at an auspicious time for the Republican Party. Wellstone's challenger, former St. Paul mayor Norm Coleman, was considered by both parties to be the GOP's best chance for recapturing the 50-to-49 Democratic U.S. Senate. Wellstone had been considered vulnerable for two reasons: his principled opposition to Bush's Iraq war resolution (the Senate voted 99-to-1 in favor) and a strong Green Party candidacy sure to siphon off leftie votes. Bush was so anxious to silence the Senate's most liberal voice (Mother Jones magazine called him "the first 1960s radical elected to the U.S. Senate") that he personally recruited Coleman to run against him. Bush then campaigned furiously against Wellstone, attending two fundraisers which raised over $2.3 million--more than he raised for any other Republican candidate, including his brother Jeb.


Republicans resorted to Nixon-style dirty tricks in the Coleman campaign. Coleman called Wellstone "extremist" and implied he was a communist. GOP workers phoned senior citizens to tell them that Wellstone was plotting to take away their Social Security (news - web sites). They called members of the National Rifle Association to tell them that Wellstone was plotting to take away their guns. They even ran newspaper ads depicting gruesome photos of late-term abortions.


Despite the money and sleazy tactics being used against him, recent polls showed Wellstone beginning to pull ahead. With Election Day looming on Nov. 5, many analysts were predicting a Wellstone victory and continued Democratic dominance of the Senate. Perhaps, the thinking goes, someone in the Bush regime decided Wellstone had to go.


Assassination by Aviation


If Wellstone's plane was sabotaged, it wouldn't be the first time that a political figure met his end in the friendly skies. A plane carrying Chinese leader Mao Tse-Tung's hand-picked successor, Lin Biao, crashed under mysterious circumstances en route to Moscow during 1971. The Chinese later claimed that Lin was defecting to the Soviet Union after a botched coup attempt against Mao; guilty or not, most historians believe that his plane was probably sabotaged. On March 3, 2001, a phosphorus bomb blew up a Thai Airways Boeing 737-400 minutes before the country's new prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, was set to board the jet.


Many American politicians--mostly Democrats and liberal Republicans--have died in aviation disasters. Senator John Tower (R-TX) Senator John Heinz (D-PA), Congressman Mickey Leland (D-TX); Ron Brown and Mel Carnahan are among those who have been killed in airplanes since 1989. "Elected officials expose themselves every day to these kinds of risks as they travel across their states or districts," Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) commented, noting the perils of frequently using small aircraft.

Anyone who has traveled on what is euphemistically called "civil aviation" can tell horror stories about sudden drops, lurches and violent thunderstorms. But it's also true that security at the regional airports and small terminals at major airports used for such flights--Wellstone flew out of St. Paul--is more easily penetrable than that at JFK and LAX. It would hardly be impossible to sabotage a plane chartered for an inconvenient politician.

Wherefore the Black Box?

According to aviation consultant Robert Breiling, the plane that carried Senator Wellstone--the King Air A-100 "business turboprop," also known as a Beech King Air--is remarkably safe, with 25 percent fewer fatal accidents than other planes in its class. Warren Morningstar, spokesman for the Airline Owners and Pilots Association, says: "It's a great airplane."

So why did Wellstone's go down? Weather is the lead suspect. Freezing temperatures, which can be severe in Minnesota, came early this year. "This airplane would typically be equipped with de-ice equipment but there are icing conditions that are beyond the measure of any equipment to remove," Morningstar notes.

Local pilots, however, doubt that ice was a problem. "There was little ice. It was normal. We see it all the time," said Don Sipola, a flight instructor with 25 years experience.

"Black boxes"--a flight data recorder and a cockpit voice recorder--are often crucial for discovering the cause of airplane crashes. According to Federal Aviation Administration (news - web sites) spokesman Paul Takemoto, the plane was required to be equipped with both. Contradicting the FAA, Carol Carmody, acting chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board (news - web sites), which is investigating the site of the crash, says that the plane apparently carried neither. Were the black boxes lost or were they never aboard? Someone may know, but thus far no one's saying.

A Reflection on Bush

Odds are overwhelmingly in favor of a natural or mechanical explanation for the crash of Paul Wellstone's plane. For one thing, substitute candidate Walter Mondale is expected to retain Wellstone's senate seat for the Democrats. That's predictable. The victories of last-minute substitute candidates like Missouri's Jean Carnahan in 2000 and New Jersey's Frank Lautenberg this year provide ample evidence that losing a candidate needn't mean losing an election. If anything, Mondale is more likely to win than Wellstone was, notwithstanding the inadvertent prediction of China's president Jiang Zemin (news - web sites), who offered his "deep condolences for the loss of the Senate."

The fact that we're having this discussion at all is a symptom of the polarizing effect that Bush and his top dogs have had on the United States since assuming office and even more so in the hard-right free-for-all that followed the Sept. 11 attacks. Presidents routinely cause their political detractors to take offense, but one would have to go back to Franklin D. Roosevelt's attempt to stack the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) or Richard Nixon's wiretapping and enemies list to find another American leader who crossed the line of acceptable discourse as extremely as George W. Bush has done.

Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) may have been a hard line conservative, but had Wellstone died during his watch you wouldn't have heard liberals asking whether the Gipper had had him offed. Bush is different. Asking mailmen to spy on ordinary Americans, creating military tribunals for anyone deemed an "enemy combatant," locking prisoners of war in dog cages, spending a decade's worth of savings in six months, allowing journalists to die rather than provide them with help in a war zone, smearing Democratic politicians as anti-American, invading sovereign nations without excuse--these are acts that transgress essential American reasonableness. A man capable of these things seems, by definition, capable of anything.

Ironically, Paul Wellstone would have been the last person to suspect Republicans of such a monstrous crime. One of his final acts in the Senate was to praise the career of retiring Senator Jesse Helms, his ideological counterpart on the Right. Like most idealists, Wellstone thought the best of humanity, that people would do the right thing if the choices were properly and clearly explained. Wellstone wouldn't have wanted to believe that he was assassinated.

Neither do I. So let's hope those black boxes turn up.

(Ted Rall's latest book, a graphic travelogue about his recent coverage of the Afghan war titled "To Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Back," is now in its second edition. Ordering and review-copy information are available at nbmpub.com.)


6817, RE: R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by MicheleQJ, Thu Oct-31-02 12:03 PM
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Bottoms/bottoms25.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0424-07.htm

http://www.counterpunch.org/pipermail/counterpunch-list/2000-December/004162.html

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14399

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29487



6818, Questions
Posted by undaground_ish, Thu Oct-31-02 04:12 PM
Was the plane equipped with a voice recorder or wasnt it?

On Friday, she said that she had been told the plane did have such a device, but she said Saturday that she had been misinformed. Under Federal Aviation Administration rules, cockpit voice recorders are not required on such planes.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3391129.html

Was it supposed to be equipped with one or not?

The Federal Aviation Administration said the plane was supposed to be equipped with a flight data recorder, which tracks the performance of the onboard systems, and a cockpit voice recorder.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/4372006.htm

Under Federal Aviation Administration rules, cockpit voice recorders are not required on such planes.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3391129.html

Was the weather bad or wasnt it?

The plane went down in snowy, frozen rain and then burst into flames in a wooded area about 7 miles east of Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport. Officials said the last contact with the plane was at 10:20 a.m. CDT when the plane was about 2 miles from the airport.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/25/plane.crash.minn/index.html

The twin-engine private plane went down in freezing rain and light snow near the Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport, about 175 miles north of Minneapolis. The cause of the crash was under investigation.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20021025/ap_on_re_us/plane_down

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/us_msp_closeradar_medium_usen.jpg

Wellstone's pilot had reported no problems before the crash and there was no severe weather in the area at the time, the Federal Aviation Administration said. Because of overcast conditions, the plane would have been on instrument approach at the time of the crash.

The plane's pilots called the Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport to get clearance for landing when they were about seven miles out, and they reported no problems, said Gary Ulman, who was on duty at the small airport at the time.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/102502_nw_senator_plane_crash.html

Did the plane crash 2 miles or 7 miles frum the airport?

The plane went down in snowy, frozen rain and then burst into flames in a wooded area about 7 miles east of Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/25/plane.crash.minn/index.html


The path of the wreckage, about two miles southeast of the airport, suggested the pilot may have aborted the landing, Ulman said.

Was the last contact at 2 miles or 7 miles?

The plane's pilots called the Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport to get clearance for landing when they were about seven miles out, and they reported no problems, said Gary Ulman, who was on duty at the small airport at the time.

Officials said the last contact with the plane was at 10:20 a.m. CDT when the plane was about 2 miles from the airport.

How can people believe anything frum these contradictory muthafuckas? The media knows people dont do their own research so they just say any damn thing.





6819, sig worthy
Posted by MicheleQJ, Fri Nov-01-02 06:20 AM
"How can people believe anything frum these contradictory muthafuckas? The media knows people dont do their own research so they just say any damn thing."



____________________

6820, i'm angry
Posted by The Casm, Fri Nov-01-02 10:02 AM
i'm just really angry and mad @ the US right now.
mad. Bush IS the Devil. Im' not talking about the Biblical devil, i'm talking about the Evil. he and his whole administration...

i'm just....angry....*shakes head*
6821, I WANT BUSH KILLED
Posted by The Casm, Fri Nov-01-02 10:12 AM
and honestly, I am afraid this is gonna represent an obstacle for me when I try to go to the US again, but fuck, I'm just so fucking angry @ that....and I want that devil killed! and may it be a very painful death....
6822, RE: R.I.P. Senator Paul Wellstone...
Posted by undaground_ish, Tue Nov-05-02 11:19 AM
up