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Forum nameOkay Activist Archives
Topic subjectRE: continued
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=6399&mesg_id=6515
6515, RE: continued
Posted by THE TROLL UNDER THE BRIDGE, Fri Nov-15-02 08:28 PM
>Response: One of the 12 is just another name to refer to the
>original apostles. Even though Judas had died. The 11
>apostles are also used in Luke 24:9,33 Acts 1:26. This is
>used when it gets more specific, one of the 12 is just a
>generic way of saying apostles thats all.

so 11 means 12 now like 1 means 3? i didnt do so well in math..only lvl 2 regents...so help a brovah out....

>My Turn: Here is a general question.

>Why Allah telling Satan to bow down before Adam (7:12-18)
>when in Islam such a worshipful gesture is due only to God?

you assume so...but all that is in the heavens prostrate to man....all is here under our care...all postrated to adam because adam is the crown of allah's creation...and we are his "children"...according to classical commentary (not yusef ali..nothing against him..but the further you are away from the source the more chance for error) all worship allah, and follow his commands...allah tells all to subject itself (not worship..worship is more than prostrating...if that was the case..we muslims worship the black stone..intention is the elixr as the sufis say. murder vs self defence) man, as a command from who they worship.....and man worships allah (in theory) because allah also says in the quran:

2.34 And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith.

the bowing down happens with trees (we cut them, make paper), the animals (they for the most part stay away from us like they were commanded, xcept those we domesticated), cars (put in gas and go)...etc..we have a responsibility to allah beyond just sajda (prostration0..we shouldnt practice scorched earth tatics..we should do things like plant trees, not practice usary...etc...but some worship money, women, men, etc....even those who prostrate:)

iblis (the cheif of the shaytans)...didnt want to because he figured he was better....sorta like jealousy because allah chose walking dirt over his "smokeless fire" (light perhaps?)

>Response: Again, this is different context inwhich Peter was
>speaking. Peter is tellng the jews in Acts 2 that all of
>those signs and wonders Jesus did were to prove his
>ministry. In other words they proved that he was the messiah
>and by his miracles the jews should have been able to see
>that. In Mk, what does Jesus mean when he says 'this
>generation'. He meant the generation of unbelievers who
>wanted him to perform signs and wonders knowing full well
>who he was. So Jesus knowing their hearts refused to do a
>sign for them (unbelievers) and walked away.

so did he or didnt he leave a sign (i know isa did, your hispanic jesus god dude to you maybe)....in acts which came after mark claim he did? who was right saul of tarsus, or mark?
dont slide over the question....one says yes and the other no....this is the holy (pure) bible..and if i put a cup of urine in a galon of koolaide...doesnt make it pure does it? and do these people let you know their intent....cause the muslims have hundreds of thousands of books with the intent and context of every statement made.....weather its on ma'arifat or usul...or weather it was mutawatir and applies to all of us in law...or weather it was a single narration and is just an example within a given context.....
>My Turn


>Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false
>Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him;
>but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set
>up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous
>indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
>The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend
>to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even
>greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public,"
>but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and
>lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear
>signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave
>Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

according to the scholors b4 us (ghazzali included)..tawaba (returning...turning around/repentence..like tawaf..the thing we do around the kaabaa) absolves any sin..if one was to die in a state of kufur (covering up/rejection...like kufs=socks..kufi="hat like thing") then shirk (polytheism) is unforgivable...allah gives us every second to change our ways and grants us alot of slack......see the context of the word forgiveth..meaning will not...allah is beyone time..so when the time comes for us to be forgiven on the day of deen (transaction/debt)...that wouldnt be absolved....in the moses case you can tell that was past tense...cause even from your bible stories you remember that allah did forgive them because they repented (made tawaba):)..its only too late when you die...catually on your death bed you still have a chance.....if you are sincere..allah's name isnt cruel (out of the 99 attributes he has)...but only allah can see ikhlas (khalas=enough, ikhlas sincerity..sincerity is enough)...even the "angels" (i hate that word...no such thing..but i wont confuse you with terms insha allah)

>Response: First of all you are not interpreting proverbs in
>light of its genre. Proverbs 'meshallim' are figures of
>speech, parables, or special contrived sayings. Proverbs
>give good advice for wise approaches to certain aspects of
>life, but are not exhaustive in their coverage. In other
>words proverbs are good advice to live a Godly life style.
>Is it true that when a person drinks to much they look like
>idiots? Yes. And isn't it also true that when people
>celebrate something they use wine for the occasion? Yes. And
>can't wine also be used to treat aligments? Yes. All of
>these points to truths.

soloman is touted to be the wisest king (of course to you behind you puerto rican/jewish friend jesus)...in your bible (and in the islamic tradition also..and the jewish tradition of course, because his sunnah was that of moses..although his religion (deen) was submission to 1 god...which is islam..all the messengers differ in sunnah only...they all worshiped iloh, illah, ya hwa, etc..or any other ancient peoples had for the main god/only god (main is via addition sorta like how muslims ignore the command from allah to HONOR THE WOMBS THAT BORE YOU!!..and smack up their moms..and abuse the honarable title of mother of their children..sad, but muslims arent immune to bad behavior..th quran isnt a shield...its a recitiation)..or those who had other traditions based on the fact of their circumstances that allah left them with (fitra...natural order..indians plant a tree when they kill one..bhuddists try to achieve a higher state of conciousness to avoid the tricks of this world...and they by allah's grace in what he told them to do will recieve this "eternal bliss" thing he promised for those who "do good"...but that doesnt absolve those who know better from doing better.....same goes for the "muslims"....
>Speaking of wine
>Is wine consumption good or bad?
>O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of)
>stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of
>Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may
>prosper," (5:90).
>(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are
>promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of
>milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy
>to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In
>it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from
>their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as
>shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink,
>boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?"
>Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of
>Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou
>wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of
>Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed,"

the parable of the muslim was given by one of the prophets companions to a fellow jewish citiizen after one jummah.....

this brother was returning from jummah on his beautiful horse...with his finest linens and great smells...he approached a jew who asked him if he was such and such (ibn hajr i believe, but i dont want to lie on him..any muslim who remembers please remind me...and may allah have mercy on you for that)..he looked at the man with his tar stained clothes, dingy appearance, and torn shoes and answered yes...the jew procieded to ask him if it wasnt his prophet who said (and i paraphrase..to not bore you).."this world is the prison of the believer, and the jennah (heaven...god i hate that word..no such place) of the disbeliever"...he said the muslim answered yes...so the jew asked him look at you in your fine clothes and me in my wrags, what prison are you in, and what heaven am i in?......the muslim pondered the question for a moment..then answered...when i think of the 5 prayers i must make a day, and the month i must fast from food and drink..and the laws i follow....i am in a prison...for me the goal is the next world....you, on the other hand have the freedom to do what you want...when you want in this world...only to have your prison in the next........

yes wine has good ualities (which allah says in the quran)..but here is not the place for that..its like drinking 40's at your neuro surgery internship......you can drink all the 40's you want when you retire...the sufis akin it to the kings property which he lets you have free reign over..but he says stay away from that sacred piece of land (haram litteraly means sacred).....you can have the whole forest..but stay from that acre...and of course man in is monkeylike nature goes for the acre and forgets the forest.....wine is fine in jannah...insha allah i would have earned it..
you left out a few of them....but thats ok...i dont like talking about this stuff much...and i do believe that this topic is being stretched...i hope you are sincere in your questions and i am not just wasting my time.....you dont have to become muslim...because (yasin 7-11)..basically says not everyone will...and thats the point...sometimes you have to live in a world with other people......people who arent like you..and in most cases respect if not agree with their view...hindus only reciently stopped having women jump on funeral fires...and bhuddists in thailand diverge from the teachings of saddata alot....(look it up, they almost arent)...but i think the point is this....matter of fact allah says it best in surah 109 ayat 6(ayat also means sign, and was the old word for stars...those stars seem scattered dont they...what if their was some order to their scattered appearance? that would be interesting).....good night...this post is too long..sorry