6470, RE: and this is all you should say|
Posted by DeRayeMustafa, Thu Nov-14-02 08:49 PM
>Response: Isn't it Ayat?
My Response: Actually there is no correct English way to spell the word Iya, Ayat, Ayah, Iyah, so if your point is to make me look as if I don't know what I'm talking about, one should look at ones self
>Response: well it says fight those who do not believe in
>God. Does not matter if they were people of the book, if
>they don't acknowledge the prophet get them. the verse
>speaks for itself.
No where in that verse does it say that if they didn't acknowledge Muhammad (Peace be upon him) as a Prophet to "get them". (And I know you didn't mean the words "get them" literally, but what you're implying does not apply)
But since your so up on your knowledge of Islam, then explain to me why this wasn't the case with the Abysinians who took in the Muslims, and please come better than debating how Muslims needed asylumn<--spelling isn't perfect, I know!
>Response: Does'nt matter because no where does that verse
>limit muslims to that time period.
My Response: Common sense, knowledge of Islamic history and the Qur'an and knowledge of the history of the Qur'an would tell you and explain that when the verse was revealed that it spoke specifically about that moment, but just like in every part of the Qur'an it teaches us, it sets the foundation of how we are to be in this world. It's not an open invite or an open declaration for Muslims to fight or attack non Muslims. I wouldn't expect you to understand this though, so there really isn't much sense in me continuing further.
>Response: nonsense, Jamal Badawi tries this same reasoning
>about self defense. But the problem is that muslims never
>define what self defense is. And in islam it is always much
>broader than what it appears to be. Many muslims argue that
>america is a culture aggressor by exporting its Hollywood
>values all over the world, and thus fight against America is
>done in self defense. Therefore there is no end to how a
>muslim group can define self defense and oppression and thus
>find an Islamic justification for violence. nice try.
My Response: Nonsense? How so? Teach me oh wise one. Explain to me about my own religion. I must have missed something, because even when I first read the Qur'an I understood that Muslims are never to be the aggressor. We aren't supposed to get smacked down and take it either, but it is not Islamic for one to be the aggressor. As far as the Muslim world seeing America as the aggressor, it goes further than Hollywood and pop culture. Are you aware of our years of involvement in the Middle east? Of the U.S. not only influencing through its exports (which to me is only a small part of the equation) but being directly envolved with keeping corrupt leaders in Muslim countries, financially supporting countries who openly oppose Muslims and Arabs alike? Nice try yourself.
>Response: Oh yeah how about:
>" fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it
>is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you,
>and that ye love a thing which is bad for you, But God
>knoweth and ye know not." sura 2:216
My Response: And what here don't you get? God commands one to fight and stand up for oneself and defend the religion, even though one may dislike it. That mankind, men, human beings may dislike a thing that is good for them and love something that is bad. God knows when man knows nothing. What about this don't you get? Americans in the military who go to fight the wars for this country I'm sure aren't just a bunch of trigger happy kids, but actually are going to defend their country, defend their freedom (or that's the pitch anyways) so what's the difference here. C'mon now man, pick you fights a little better than that.
>or how bout:
>"Let those fight is the cause of God who sell the life of
>this world for the hearafter. To him who fighteth in the
>cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall
>we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe
>fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight
>in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of
>Satan, feeble indeed in the cunning of Satan."
My Response Again: And? It's not saying, "Muslims, do nothing but fight! War is the only way!" These verses are speaking specifically about fighting for Islam. That doesn't mean that this is what the whole religion is all about. Islam is a complete way of life, so obviously this would be one of the other topics covered. You make it sound as if this is all the Qur'an talks about. The Qur'an covers much, much more than this my friend. Your argument is loosing its steam. I'm not understanding your point.
>Response: Thats ok because Mohommed made it up in medina
>when he attacked the last jewish tribe in medina on the
>suspicion that they plotted with the Meccan enemies agianst
>Response: Because you guys just keep saying that I am out of
>context but never show me real context in the debate. That
>self defense arguement does not work, one wonders how you
>can use self defese when muslims stomped across north
>africa. There is not that much self defense in the world.
Again, provide a source. I wasn't aware that Muslims stomped through Africa forcing people to believe. Speak to some Somali Muslims and ask them how Islam came into East Africa.
>Response: nice try Jizyah was a tax paid by Christains and
>jews to muslim rulers, as opposed to pagans who were forced
>to either accept islam or die.
Tell me how Muslims were treated in non Muslim lands. Tell me how Jews were treated and how Christians were treated in other lands then compare it to how they were treated in Muslims lands. There were many, many years of coexistence in Muslim lands. Remember Spain? How were Christians and Jews treated there by Muslims before the Muslims were murdered and expelled.
Come better or don't come at all because your arguement goes nowhere.