6469, and this is all you should say|
Posted by osoclasi, Thu Nov-14-02 06:55 PM
>....that your understanding of Islam is a bit skewed. What
>is your understanding of that Iyat?
Response: Isn't it Ayat?
What do you think it
Response: well it says fight those who do not believe in God. Does not matter if they were people of the book, if they don't acknowledge the prophet get them. the verse speaks for itself.
That Muslims are free to go and attack non Muslims
>now? No. You must first understand that during the time of
>the revelation of this Surah the Muslims were at war with
Response: Does'nt matter because no where does that verse limit muslims to that time period.
The Meccans waged the war and the Muslims were
>forced to defend themeselves, so when it says fight the
>unbelievers it is from a defensive stance, not that of the
>aggressor. Any Muslim would tell you that we fight not as
>the aggressor, but in defense, to defend Islam.
Response: nonsense, Jamal Badawi tries this same reasoning about self defense. But the problem is that muslims never define what self defense is. And in islam it is always much broader than what it appears to be. Many muslims argue that america is a culture aggressor by exporting its Hollywood values all over the world, and thus fight against America is done in self defense. Therefore there is no end to how a muslim group can define self defense and oppression and thus find an Islamic justification for violence. nice try.
>Muslims have been known to be aggressors this is not Islam.
>Then again, I rarely see any Christians turning the other
>cheek. We can go back and forth about what religion has
>done what throughout history until we turn blue in the face
>(which would be a little hard for me to do) but the truth
>is, we get no where. Just as your argument is going. Your
>not going to be able to prove Islam to be a violent
Response: Oh yeah how about:
" fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you, But God knoweth and ye know not." sura 2:216
or how bout:
"Let those fight is the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hearafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed in the cunning of Satan."
When, what was it 10,000 Muslims entered Mecca
>not one drop of blood was shed. Not one. This is your
Response: Thats ok because Mohommed made it up in medina when he attacked the last jewish tribe in medina on the suspicion that they plotted with the Meccan enemies agianst Muslims.
In my years of being a Muslim, I've never
>been taught to slay non-believers. Ever. So tell me
>something I don't know. Enlighten me as to why you, who
>read the Qur'an out of context as if it is some ordinary
>book, understand my own religion better than myself.
Response: Because you guys just keep saying that I am out of context but never show me real context in the debate. That self defense arguement does not work, one wonders how you can use self defese when muslims stomped across north africa. There is not that much self defense in the world.
>Forgive me if the tone of this sounds harsh, for I'm not
>coming at you like that at all, only trying to make a point
>clear. Fight those who believe not in Allah does not mean
>attack those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day. Two
>different meanings Fighting goes deeper than violence
Response: I notice you left out the part that says " and feel themselves subdued." what are you going to do, debate them into submission.
Also, the Jizyah was not a religious tax, it was a
>tax, protection, compensation for living within Islamic
>boarders. America has taxes too. Pick up your Abdullah
>Yusuf Ali Transliteration and read the Intro to this Surah
>and read C.93. Matter of fact, read about Islamic history
>and how Islam came to be during the time of Muhammad (peace
>be upon him)
Response: nice try Jizyah was a tax paid by Christains and jews to muslim rulers, as opposed to pagans who were forced to either accept islam or die.