5316, RE: Yo...where is the OKP Ummah? Greg Soundz?|
Posted by Quest4Knowledge, Thu Apr-10-03 04:12 PM
>dialogue here and other than Ioness,abduhu,Troll, and Delete
*ahem* I direct your attention to myself and Oso.
I really don't see anyone in here who seems to be trying
>to attack the subject matter the way I thought ya'll might.
Maybe with war stories still looming and people involved in their own personal lives theology has taken a back burner in peoples minds.
> I realize that in someways this topic is subjective,
Not for people who believe in any of "the big 3".
>there are some rock solid facts about the Qur'an and the
>Bible, and the Torah that need to be discussed in depth
>here. I'm interested in the relationship between the three,
So am I. I was actually surprised to see you make this post cuz I thought you had basically given up on Abrahamic monotheism and was just interested in Kemetic and traditional Afrikan spirituality.
>and where exactly there became a change that created deep
>schisms from a religion that damn near coulda incoporated
>ALL THREE principles as one at one point.
I think the doctrines themselves (the new revelations) were the "schisms". As the Bible notes itself, jews/hebrews/israelites were NOT tryin to hear what Christ was saying. And by the same token I don't think most christians by the 6th century were going to accept a doctrine that basically changes the fundemental basis of their belifs. The obvious exception is with the Ethiopians who I think sheltered or helped the Prophet or Muslims but by the time Christianity was the official Roman religion I believe there wasn't much room for outside reformation.
Another reason could be cultural circumstances. Islam came from Arabs (who I believe were mostly non-Christians) and not internally in the "Christian world" (esp. Romans) so I'm sure that would have made any attempt in "blending" the 2 (or 3 rather) even harder.
>Where the hell is Greg Soundz, Jennyfer...Intelligently 95?
Don't know about Greg, haven't seen Jennyfer in the longest (Oso is basically saying the same things that she probably would, anyhow) and I don't see why Intell would engage in this discussion since Im sure he believes all are false doctrines. Maybe Im wrong, tho.
>Or someone who can actually contribute without the non
I am non-partisan!
>So we understand that Christianity is a reform movement of
>Judiasm. We also understand thatIslam is also branches from
>Judiasm right (I could be wrong- but I think this is true)?
I think so. But I would add that modern Jews, Christians and Muslims have their own respective differences and probably see their personal faiths as indivisual and not some "branch" (despite the fact that they all have the same or similar roots).
I mean, there's the whole "outreach" program to jews from rightwing Christians, but I think the aforementioned cultural circumstances and specific differences in doctrine is what led to the complete branching away of them all.
>So then, aren't we (Christian and their derivities, Islam
>and it's derivitives, and Judiasm and it's derivites) all
>worshipping the same God?
To me, yeah. But to some people, no. For the reason I listed above about people today understanding their faith as indivisualistic and not trying to incorporate outsiders who are clearly a different religion.
Then there's the doctrine. Obviously the majority of Christians today believe God is triune, only allows forgiveness through recognizing the cruisifixtion/resurrection and does not have a messanger named Mohammad. Just like Muslims believe God should be called Allah, is One, and is not a human. And does not allow association.
Despite the VAST amounts of similarities and downright same principles, it is (IMO) futile to not recognize the largest 2 differences that speak to all 3:
-The Old Testament does not correlate with the Qur'an in an exact way when the issue of Abraham's chosen seed comes into the spotlight because the nation of Israel (though Issac and Jacob onward) is the fundemental basis of Old Testament life (as far people in the nation worshipping that specific God).
-The New Testament does not correlate with the Qur'an when it comes to the life, role and death/ascention of Christ/Isa.
Keep in mind that I am NOT saying these things to be divisive
but am saying them to address the few fundemental reasons why Islam, Christianity and Judaism (and their modern followers) have never been, are not and probably won't ever be fully intergrated. It's just the difference(s) in what PEOPLE believe today.
>I look at basic characteristics that disguish the three:
> Islam- Theology beyond the 5 pillars and Qur'an
>*Islam distances God from Humans
>*God is powerful and brings fear and awe (not a coincidence
>Bush used this phrase.
lol, like the last poets said ("white mans got a God complex")
>*Fear is appropiate in the power of God
>*Once fear is conquered, there is peace, and God is
>*Hadith as Gospel
>*Sufism, Shiites, sunni, 5%s, Nation of Islam,etc
I dont think most Muslims would consider 5%ers really part of the Ummah anymore than Christians would consider those Clocktower (JW) people "real christians". Maybe Im wrong, though.
> Christianity- The followers of Jesus
>*Non acceptance of Sadducees, Pharasees, and Zealots in
>favor of following Esseens (Baptist ascetics).
>*After Peter and Paul's influence (Highly influenced by
>Roman society- Paul frequented Antioch) the adoption of
>ancient Kemetic/Pharonic principles of Sun on the Cross
>(which was later used by Romans to depict the power of
>Ceasar, and was watered down to the title "King of Kings,
>Lord of Lords",or phrases like "Sun of God", or "My lord".
So do you believe the Bible is a victim of revisionism? Do you see the cruisifixion and resurrection as blatant plagarism?
>*Repentance, through Jesus as a way to salvation.
>*Catholicism, Protestantism,Eastern Orthodox...
>*Evangelism/Apocalypticism, as opposed to personal
>undertanding/struggle with God because of the "bail out" of
lol, I concur.
>*The 4 composities (Priestly, Duetoronomists,Je', Elohimists
YHWH is directly translated as LORD (all 4 letters capped) in the Bible (mostly if not compeltly in the OT, I dont think Christ is called LORD which speaks volumes about the 'trinity').
>*Mesopotamian story of Adapa, and it's relationship to Adam.
>*The creation stories
>*The temple periods, and the changing of Mitvah
>*Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, reconstructionist, Hebrew
>*Israel- One who stuggles with God
Interesting how you point this out. I think my understanding was that people saw israel (and the hebrews that would eventually inhabit it) as more physical until the NT where the "salvation" and personal knowledge of God becomes more important than following religious doctrine word by word and upholding physical property.
As always, I could be wrong.
>*God is everywhere
As for your comments on me being defensive, I'm not. Just engaging in debate. If I seemed that way it was because four different people quoted my original posts and attempted to counter virtually everything I said. It's no hard feelings.
Fox has got nothin' on us.
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