I think both of you have some great points and I'd just like to add my 50 cents.

First, most of this debate seems to stem from John Ogbu's theory of a black oppositional culture in American schools. It certainly trancends class, and as I think wis9 points out, you find the same results in suburban students that you would find with urban students. My point is that this is certainly a cultural problem, not just a structural one. Thus, I think Cosby's comments have much validity, although I wish he would not limit his comments to the urban black underclass and would also address suburban and affluent african american's cultural defecits as well.

Complex problems call for complez solutions. I think wis9's call for collaboration with foreign born blacks is a good idea, as is increased support for students in urban schools that k orr seems to suggest. I will address each point seperately:

Collaboration with foreign born blacks to effect educational pedagogy may be valuable, but in and of it self it would likely have limited results unless it is part of a larger plan to diversify and transform black leadership in the US. Black leadership is currently antiquated because it fails to recognize that the black experience in America is no longer one-dimensional. Not only should black leadership recognize cultural and historical differences within the american black poulation, they should also recognize the significant cultural differences between blacks in different socio-economic classes. That would be the first move in my opinion. Once we admit that we're not all the same, then we can begin to recognize our common agenda. I say this because I feel that all black americans suffer from a lack understanding of what our common experiences and common agenda really is. Educational aspirations and acheivement would certainly be a part of this agenda. Currently, it seems to me as a layman that this type of multi-facited black leadership just doesn't exist. In fact, I don't really know if there is any agenda for black leadership in the US, period.

Thus, the focus should be on promoting black unity, which I think will create an influence of positive cultural transformation through the synthesis of black experience, goals, and values. I don't think we could expect to simply transform educational pedagogy and in turn transform black achievement by seeing how education is done in the carribean or elsewhere in african diasporic societies. I think k orr's points about the significant differences in those communities are quite valid, and such collaboration would be largely ineffective unless we all got on the same proverbial page first.

I would also point out that black underachievement is sypmtomatic of the involuntary minority effect in societies, where immigrants that have arrived against their will to a nation traditionally do not acheive at the same levels as immigrants who came to said nation with economic interests. In the US we're talking about AA's and native americans (who granted, are not immigrrants, so to speak, but fit this paradigm). Japanese, chinese, korean, cuban (first wave), and european immigrants came to the US under very different pretenses, and their success is largely attributable to their fundamental purposes for being here. You will also find that refugees and other immigrants that came here to escape hostilities at home do not have the same levels of acheivement.

As for K orr's points on structural deficits contributing to black achievement, I agree wholeheartedly. I also take issue with wis9's assertion that the school's can't do much to help students who don't have the necessary support at home. As an educator myself, I have seen students beat the odds and succeed because they received the proper support at school or from other social institutions that their parent(s) does(do) not provide. I think that urban public schools could do much better if they were able to implement even half of the student support resources that you see in elite private institutions, where the social development of the students is considered primal in their efforts to positively affect said students' academic and intellectual development. The biggest problem with urban schools, and public schools in general, is that there is little to no effort given to creating positive and intellectual school cultures. This sort of attention is a key ingredient to academic programming in independent schools.

I would also like to point out that while we debate whether african americans do or do not value education, there is actually NO SIGNIFICANT GAP in educational aspirations amongst black and white americans of any class. While it is popular to suggest that the black urban underclass does not value education, the actual oppositional attitude that may exist is much more nuanced than a "Fuck school" or "Fuck education" attitude. Black kids do not initially think that academic achievement is impossible. More accurately, there are specific conditions that nurtures feelings of opposition (indifferent or racist teachers, low expectations, and yes, the media), and that is what should be researched. Talk of "no repsect for auhority" and "no value for education" fits only a marignal group of urban black students.

As for Harvard, I would agree that it is alarming to here these facts about the decendents of black american slaves. But also, Harvard interviews every one of the students they admit, fuh'sho'. Thus, they can see who they think is a good cultural "fit." I would bet this assimilation tactic works against many an urban scholar. Also, I think that this policy is a cop out if they're claiming to be a champion of equality or social causes. If that was the case they would implement policies that address the lingering affects historical racial oppression in America, which our foreign born comrads have largely not experienced.

In all, the problems of education in the black community are indeed complex and do involve oppositional culture as well as structural deficits. The solution, though, starts at the top, with black leadership. Cosby's right to call black folk out and challenge them to better themselves, but the solution should be mutlifacited, and education is only one piece. Cultural deficits as well as continued exploitation and oppression should be strategically addressed by a leadership group, and ordinary citizens alike.

In closing, I think the blame whitey accusations are overblown ,themselves. I taught in urban schools and kids weren't constantly telling me that the white man was the reason why they weren't doing their fuckin' homework. Sure, there were a couple of kids who took that route, but I think that the larger problem stemmed from a lack of understanding of what it actually takes to be a high academic achiever. I do think that racial identity plays a role, but not in as much of a "I don't want to learn the white man's english" role in 2004. It's more subversive and it involves a general lack of cultural capital in the balck community. To that end, uniting all diasporic peoples in this nation would be a nice step in the right direction in developing and sharing such capital, but simply trying to implement carribean and african educational models probably would not work in isolation because of contextual differences.

In the end, we need a little of everything I guess. Accountability, leadership, and help.

"Don't hang up on Karl
Malone!"