greetings,

i have to admit that i have not made my way through the whole thread, however, i feel compelled to reply to some of what has been said from my own personal understanding and relationship with "god".

first, i often find these conversations to be extremely frustrating, if for no other reason most ppl who sit around and talk about religion are trying to not connect with another person through their ideas, worldview, intepretation of their world (god) but instead say "look there is only way to do this thing, and i go it." whats even more frustrating is that it is often these ppl who are the most joyless, live the most unfullfilling, blind, and one dimensional existences.

second, the funny thing i realized after being raised a christian my whole life (if i missed weekly service more then 2 times before 16 i swear i can't remember it) and then being exposed to a world full of poetry, music, biology, chemistry, pysics, islam, hindu, whatever rocks ur world, is that is all related. . .that each of these pursuits offer the person who is using it an chance to look at their world and try to give it meaning, substance, something they can put their hands one. . .make their own. so for me this only makes me more frustrated when anyone (and i'm' not wholly innocent of this) tries to say look this is the only way.

that's all to say is this. . .my understanding of god and his faliable/infaliable nature is this:

>>I'm willing to go thru what
>>>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>>>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>>>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>>>understanding.

my father and i go back and forth about this all the time, he firmly beleives that colleged screwed me royally. its never made any sense to me that god, infaliable as we like to make him out to be, as perfect and static as we make him out to be. . .would see fit to speak to everyone in english. so if i'm born in savannah, georgia, or kingston jamaica, or cape town, south africa, or jikarta, malaysia, or calcutta, india, or dublin, ireland. . .or. . .any of these places with their unique cultural history and present circustance, unique languages, and then lets not even start talking about how people are different from culture to culture. . .it just makes no sense to me that god is going to talk to me the same way that he'd hit mr. tanaka off in tokyo. my point is this: for me god is a connection between all things i come in contact with, a way to honor my life, and ur life, and the life of anyone, anything i come across. . .nothing has to "make sense" cause they just are. . .cause honestly (and please please don't take this as a personal attack) if i were to try and "make sense" of you through the post that you have put up. . .i'd be lost, have no clue, cause your way of living makes no sense to me. . .at different points in my life i've found it painful, repressive, very biggoted and felt as though it excluded me (hmmm so you see how thanksgiving dinner at my fam's house went down't dont u).


>Please do because most of what people believe to be
>contraditions are not, you just have to put things together
>like a puzzle. Here a little there a little.

but what amazes me is that often when i encounter people who won't look at the contridictions i often wonder how they truly can believe that they are capable of seeing the whole puzzle, cause they only playing wit some of the pieces. i actually agree with you, the bible when taken as a whole, when you see what sort of "energy" (end product) it creates, understand its purpose, has no contridictions. but you have to admit that from page to page, you really ain't sure what u gonna get. . .cause it is very situational changing with time, and space, and actors. . .like well. . .real life. . .

>>from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.
>>
>>God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>>>people.

you can't have it both ways. . .either god created the universe, the actors and the props or he didn't.

>What first needs to be understood, is that God did not
>create evil, we created evil.

back to my above point: you can't have it both ways. . .i'm not sure how the avg christian got appointed god's council and where their got their charge to defend him so with such blind zeal (ok i admit thats prob a bit patronizing. . .i'm getting increasingly more frustrated). man, was created in god's image and i believe quite strongly we were created with all of the struggles that god goes through, the struggle with ego, the need to be powerful, the desire of flesh, the desire of . . .so in a world where we are so afraid to deal with ourselves (mini gods. . .remember made in his image) it makes sense that we would split god in half good (jesus/christ/whomever) and evil (poor ole satan) and BOOM go off and live our lives in similiar sketzophrenic ways.

God gave us law and the
>consequences for breaking those laws.

agreed. . .we must take responsibility for our actions. . .and i personally believe that we are here to do exactly that. . .its a process one that will continue long after this conversation, throughout time. god hasn't abandonded us, hasn't turned a blind eye to us, is here when we want "them" we just need to stop being theological, philosophical, cultureal bigots and get on wit it. damn!

leon

ps sorry if some of this wasn't all that inteligent. . .but u know religion. . .gotta love it. . .


courage is a curious, a many sided force, and real courage is always allied with the unshakable faith which forces one to go beyond the appearance of things. . .

james baldwin, "just above my head"