How Hip-Hop Holds Blacks Back
John H. McWhorter

Not long ago, I was having lunch in a KFC in Harlem, sitting near eight African-American boys, aged about 14. Since 1) it was 1:30 on a school day, 2) they were carrying book bags, and 3) they seemed to be in no hurry, I assumed they were skipping school. They were extremely loud and unruly, tossing food at one another and leaving it on the floor.

Black people ran the restaurant and made up the bulk of the customers, but it was hard to see much healthy “black community” here. After repeatedly warning the boys to stop throwing food and keep quiet, the manager finally told them to leave. The kids ignored her. Only after she called a male security guard did they start slowly making their way out, tauntingly circling the restaurant before ambling off. These teens clearly weren’t monsters, but they seemed to consider themselves exempt from public norms of behavior—as if they had begun to check out of mainstream society.

What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.

Many writers and thinkers see a kind of informed political engagement, even a revolutionary potential, in rap and hip-hop. They couldn’t be more wrong. By reinforcing the stereotypes that long hindered blacks, and by teaching young blacks that a thuggish adversarial stance is the properly “authentic” response to a presumptively racist society, rap retards black success.

The venom that suffuses rap had little place in black popular culture—indeed, in black attitudes—before the 1960s. The hip-hop ethos can trace its genealogy to the emergence in that decade of a black ideology that equated black strength and authentic black identity with a militantly adversarial stance toward American society. In the angry new mood, captured by Malcolm X’s upraised fist, many blacks (and many more white liberals) began to view black crime and violence as perfectly natural, even appropriate, responses to the supposed dehumanization and poverty inflicted by a racist society. Briefly, this militant spirit, embodied above all in the Black Panthers, infused black popular culture, from the plays of LeRoi Jones to “blaxploitation” movies, like Melvin Van Peebles’s Sweet Sweetback’s Baadasssss Song, which celebrated the black criminal rebel as a hero.

But blaxploitation and similar genres burned out fast. The memory of whites blatantly stereotyping blacks was too recent for the typecasting in something like Sweet Sweetback’s Baadasssss Song not to offend many blacks. Observed black historian Lerone Bennett: “There is a certain grim white humor in the fact that the black marches and demonstrations of the 1960s reached artistic fulfillment” with “provocative and ultimately insidious reincarnations of all the Sapphires and Studds of yesteryear.”

Early rap mostly steered clear of the Sapphires and Studds, beginning not as a growl from below but as happy party music. The first big rap hit, the Sugar Hill Gang’s 1978 “Rapper’s Delight,” featured a catchy bass groove that drove the music forward, as the jolly rapper celebrated himself as a ladies’ man and a great dancer. Soon, kids across America were rapping along with the nonsense chorus:

I said a hip, hop, the hippie, the hippie,
to the hip-hip hop, ah you don’t stop
the rock it to the bang bang boogie, say
up jump the boogie,
to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat.
A string of ebullient raps ensued in the months ahead. At the time, I assumed it was a harmless craze, certain to run out of steam soon.

But rap took a dark turn in the early 1980s, as this “bubble gum” music gave way to a “gangsta” style that picked up where blaxploitation left off. Now top rappers began to write edgy lyrics celebrating street warfare or drugs and promiscuity. Grandmaster Flash’s ominous 1982 hit, “The Message,” with its chorus, “It’s like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from going under,” marked the change in sensibility. It depicted ghetto life as profoundly desolate:

You grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way.
You’ll admire all the numberbook takers,
Thugs, pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.
Music critics fell over themselves to praise “The Message,” treating it as the poetry of the streets—as the elite media has characterized hip-hop ever since. The song’s grim fatalism struck a chord; twice, I’ve heard blacks in audiences for talks on race cite the chorus to underscore a point about black victimhood. So did the warning it carried: “Don’t push me, ’cause I’m close to the edge,” menacingly raps Melle Mel. The ultimate message of “The Message”—that ghetto life is so hopeless that an explosion of violence is both justified and imminent—would become a hip-hop mantra in the years ahead.

The angry, oppositional stance that “The Message” reintroduced into black popular culture transformed rap from a fad into a multi-billion-dollar industry that sold more than 80 million records in the U.S. in 2002—nearly 13 percent of all recordings sold. To rap producers like Russell Simmons, earlier black pop was just sissy music. He despised the “soft, unaggressive music (and non-threatening images)” of artists like Michael Jackson or Luther Vandross. “So the first chance I got,” he says, “I did exactly the opposite.”

In the two decades since “The Message,” hip-hop performers have churned out countless rap numbers that celebrate a ghetto life of unending violence and criminality. Schooly D’s “PSK What Does It Mean?” is a case in point:

Copped my pistols, jumped into the ride.
Got at the bar, copped some flack,
Copped some cheeba-cheeba, it wasn’t wack.
Got to the place, and who did I see?
A sucka-ass nigga tryin to sound like me.
Put my pistol up against his head—
I said, “Sucka-ass nigga, I should shoot you dead.”
The protagonist of a rhyme by KRS-One (a hip-hop star who would later speak out against rap violence) actually pulls the trigger:

Knew a drug dealer by the name of Peter—
Had to buck him down with my 9 millimeter.

Police forces became marauding invaders in the gangsta-rap imagination. The late West Coast rapper Tupac Shakur expressed the attitude:

Ya gotta know how to shake the snakes, nigga,
’Cause the police love to break a nigga,
Send him upstate ’cause they straight up hate the nigga.
Shakur’s anti-police tirade seems tame, however, compared with Ice-T’s infamous “Cop Killer”:

I got my black shirt on.
I got my black gloves on.
I got my ski mask on.
This shit’s been too long.
I got my 12-gauge sawed-off.
I got my headlights turned off.
I’m ’bout to bust some shots off.
I’m ’bout to dust some cops off. . . .
I’m ’bout to kill me somethin’
A pig stopped me for nuthin’!
Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, fuck police brutality! . . .
Die, die, die pig, die!
Fuck the police! . . .
Fuck the police yeah!
Rap also began to offer some of the most icily misogynistic music human history has ever known. Here’s Schooly D again:

Tell you now, brother, this ain’t no joke,
She got me to the crib, she laid me on the bed,
I fucked her from my toes to the top of my head.
I finally realized the girl was a whore,
Gave her ten dollars, she asked me for some more.
Jay-Z’s “Is That Yo Bitch?” mines similar themes:

I don’t love ’em, I fuck ’em.
I don’t chase ’em, I duck ’em.
I replace ’em with another one. . . .
She be all on my dick.
Or, as N.W.A. (an abbreviation of “Niggers with Attitude”) tersely sums up the hip-hop worldview: “Life ain’t nothin’ but bitches and money.”

Rap’s musical accompaniment mirrors the brutality of rap lyrics in its harshness and repetition. Simmons fashions his recordings in contempt for euphony. “What we used for melody was implied melody, and what we used for music was sounds—beats, scratches, stuff played backward, nothing pretty or sweet.” The success of hip-hop has resulted in an ironic reversal. In the seventies, screaming hard rock was in fashion among young whites, while sweet, sinuous funk and soul ruled the black airwaves—a difference I was proud of. But in the eighties, rock quieted down, and black music became the assault on the ears and soul. Anyone who grew up in urban America during the eighties won’t soon forget the young men strolling down streets, blaring this sonic weapon from their boom boxes, with defiant glares daring anyone to ask them to turn it down.

Hip-hop exploded into popular consciousness at the same time as the music video, and rappers were soon all over MTV, reinforcing in images the ugly world portrayed in rap lyrics. Video after video features rap stars flashing jewelry, driving souped-up cars, sporting weapons, angrily gesticulating at the camera, and cavorting with interchangeable, mindlessly gyrating, scantily clad women.

Of course, not all hip-hop is belligerent or profane—entire CDs of gang-bangin’, police-baiting, woman-bashing invective would get old fast to most listeners. But it’s the nastiest rap that sells best, and the nastiest cuts that make a career. As I write, the top ten best-selling hip-hop recordings are 50 Cent (currently with the second-best-selling record in the nation among all musical genres), Bone Crusher, Lil’ Kim, Fabolous, Lil’ Jon and the East Side Boyz, Cam’ron Presents the Diplomats, Busta Rhymes, Scarface, Mobb Deep, and Eminem. Every one of these groups or performers personifies willful, staged opposition to society—Lil’ Jon and crew even regale us with a song called “Don’t Give a Fuck”—and every one celebrates the ghetto as “where it’s at.” Thus, the occasional dutiful songs in which a rapper urges men to take responsibility for their kids or laments senseless violence are mere garnish. Keeping the thug front and center has become the quickest and most likely way to become a star.

No hip-hop luminary has worked harder than Sean “P. Diddy” Combs, the wildly successful rapper, producer, fashion mogul, and CEO of Bad Boy Records, to cultivate a gangsta image—so much so that he’s blurred the line between playing the bad boy and really being one. Combs may have grown up middle-class in Mount Vernon, New York, and even have attended Howard University for a while, but he’s proven he can gang-bang with the worst. Cops charged Combs with possession of a deadly weapon in 1995. In 1999, he faced charges for assaulting a rival record executive. Most notoriously, police charged him that year with firing a gun at a nightclub in response to an insult, injuring three bystanders, and with fleeing the scene with his entourage (including then-pal Jennifer “J. Lo” Lopez). Combs got off, but his young rapper prot&#eacute;g#é Jamal “Shyne” Barrow went to prison for firing the gun.

Combs and his crew are far from alone among rappers in keeping up the connection between “rap and rap sheet,” as critic Kelefa Sanneh artfully puts it. Several prominent rappers, including superstar Tupac Shakur, have gone down in hails of bullets—with other rappers often suspected in the killings. Death Row Records producer Marion “Suge” Knight just finished a five-year prison sentence for assault and federal weapons violations. Current rage 50 Cent flaunts his bullet scars in photos; cops recently arrested him for hiding assault weapons in his car. Of the top ten hip-hop sellers mentioned above, five have had scrapes with the law. In 2000, at least five different fights broke out at the Source Hiphop Awards—intended to be the rap industry’s Grammys. The final brawl, involving up to 100 people in the audience and spilling over onto the stage, shut the ceremony down—right after a video tribute to slain rappers. Small wonder a popular rap website goes by the name rapsheet.com.

Many fans, rappers, producers, and intellectuals defend hip-hop’s violence, both real and imagined, and its misogyny as a revolutionary cry of frustration from disempowered youth. For Simmons, gangsta raps “teach listeners something about the lives of the people who create them and remind them that these people exist.” 50 Cent recently told Vibe magazine, “Mainstream America can look at me and say, ‘That’s the mentality of a young man from the ’hood.’ ” University of Pennsylvania black studies professor Michael Eric Dyson has written a book-length paean to Shakur, praising him for “challenging narrow artistic visions of black identity” and for “artistically exploring the attractions and limits of black moral and social subcultures”—just one of countless fawning treatises on rap published in recent years. The National Council of Teachers of English, recommending the use of hip-hop lyrics in urban public school classrooms (as already happens in schools in Oakland, Los Angeles, and other cities), enthuses that “hip-hop can be used as a bridge linking the seemingly vast span between the streets and the world of academics.”

But we’re sorely lacking in imagination if in 2003—long after the civil rights revolution proved a success, at a time of vaulting opportunity for African Americans, when blacks find themselves at the top reaches of society and politics—we think that it signals progress when black kids rattle off violent, sexist, nihilistic, lyrics, like Russians reciting Pushkin. Some defended blaxploitation pictures as revolutionary, too, but the passage of time has exposed the silliness of such a contention. “The message of Sweetback is that if you can get it together and stand up to the Man, you can win,” Van Peebles once told an interviewer. But win what? All Sweetback did, from what we see in the movie, was avoid jail—and it would be nice to have more useful counsel on overcoming than “kicking the Man’s ass.” Claims about rap’s political potential will look equally gestural in the future. How is it progressive to describe life as nothing but “bitches and money”? Or to tell impressionable black kids, who’d find every door open to them if they just worked hard and learned, that blowing a rival’s head off is “real”? How helpful is rap’s sexism in a community plagued by rampant illegitimacy and an excruciatingly low marriage rate?

The idea that rap is an authentic cry against oppression is all the sillier when you recall that black Americans had lots more to be frustrated about in the past but never produced or enjoyed music as nihilistic as 50 Cent or N.W.A. On the contrary, black popular music was almost always affirmative and hopeful. Nor do we discover music of such violence in places of great misery like Ethiopia or the Congo—unless it’s imported American hip-hop.

Given the hip-hop world’s reflexive alienation, it’s no surprise that its explicit political efforts, such as they are, are hardly progressive. Simmons has founded the “Hip-Hop Summit Action Network” to bring rap stars and fans together in order to forge a “bridge between hip-hop and politics.” But HSAN’s policy positions are mostly tired bromides. Sticking with the long-discredited idea that urban schools fail because of inadequate funding from the stingy, racist white Establishment, for example, HSAN joined forces with the teachers’ union to protest New York mayor Bloomberg’s proposed education budget for its supposed lack of generosity. HSAN has also stuck it to President Bush for invading Iraq. And it has vociferously protested the affixing of advisory labels on rap CDs that warn parents about the obscene language inside. Fighting for rappers’ rights to obscenity: that’s some kind of revolution!

Okay, maybe rap isn’t progressive in any meaningful sense, some observers will admit; but isn’t it just a bunch of kids blowing off steam and so nothing to worry about? I think that response is too easy. With music videos, DVD players, Walkmans, the Internet, clothes, and magazines all making hip-hop an accompaniment to a person’s entire existence, we need to take it more seriously. In fact, I would argue that it is seriously harmful to the black community.

The rise of nihilistic rap has mirrored the breakdown of community norms among inner-city youth over the last couple of decades. It was just as gangsta rap hit its stride that neighborhood elders began really to notice that they’d lost control of young black men, who were frequently drifting into lives of gang violence and drug dealing. Well into the seventies, the ghetto was a shabby part of town, where, despite unemployment and rising illegitimacy, a healthy number of people were doing their best to “keep their heads above water,” as the theme song of the old black sitcom Good Times put it.

By the eighties, the ghetto had become a ruleless war zone, where black people were their own worst enemies. It would be silly, of course, to blame hip-hop for this sad downward spiral, but by glamorizing life in the “war zone,” it has made it harder for many of the kids stuck there to extricate themselves. Seeing a privileged star like Sean Combs behave like a street thug tells those kids that there’s nothing more authentic than ghetto pathology, even when you’ve got wealth beyond imagining.

The attitude and style expressed in the hip-hop “identity” keeps blacks down. Almost all hip-hop, gangsta or not, is delivered with a cocky, confrontational cadence that is fast becoming—as attested to by the rowdies at KFC—a common speech style among young black males. Similarly, the arm-slinging, hand-hurling gestures of rap performers have made their way into many young blacks’ casual gesticulations, becoming integral to their self-expression. The problem with such speech and mannerisms is that they make potential employers wary of young black men and can impede a young black’s ability to interact comfortably with co-workers and customers. The black community has gone through too much to sacrifice upward mobility to the passing kick of an adversarial hip-hop “identity.”

On a deeper level, there is something truly unsettling and tragic about the fact that blacks have become the main agents in disseminating debilitating—dare I say racist—images of themselves. Rap guru Russell Simmons claims that “the coolest stuff about American culture—be it language, dress, or attitude—comes from the underclass. Always has and always will.” Yet back in the bad old days, blacks often complained—with some justification—that the media too often depicted blacks simply as uncivilized. Today, even as television and films depict blacks at all levels of success, hip-hop sends the message that blacks are . . . uncivilized. I find it striking that the cry-racism crowd doesn’t condemn it.

For those who insist that even the invisible structures of society reinforce racism, the burden of proof should rest with them to explain just why hip-hop’s bloody and sexist lyrics and videos and the criminal behavior of many rappers wouldn’t have a powerfully negative effect upon whites’ conception of black people.

Sadly, some black leaders just don’t seem to care what lesson rap conveys. Consider Savannah’s black high schools, which hosted the local rapper Camoflauge as a guest speaker several times before his murder earlier this year. Here’s a representative lyric:

Gimme tha keys to tha car, I’m ready for war.
When we ride on these niggas smoke that ass like a ’gar.
Hit your block with a Glock, clear the set with a Tech . . . .
You think I’m jokin, see if you laughing when tha pistol be smokin—
Leave you head split wide open
And you bones get broken. . . .
More than a few of the Concerned Black People inviting this “artist” to speak to the impressionable youth of Savannah would presumably be the first to cry out about “how whites portray blacks in the media.”

Far from decrying the stereotypes rampant in rap’s present-day blaxploitation, many hip-hop defenders pull the “whitey-does-it-too” trick. They point to the Godfather movies or The Sopranos as proof that violence and vulgarity are widespread in American popular culture, so that singling out hip-hop for condemnation is simply bigotry. Yet such a defense is pitifully weak. No one really looks for a way of life to emulate or a political project to adopt in The Sopranos. But for many of its advocates, hip-hop, with its fantasies of revolution and community and politics, is more than entertainment. It forms a bedrock of young black identity.

Nor will it do to argue that hip-hop isn’t “black” music, since most of its buyers are white, or because the “hip-hop revolution” is nominally open to people of all colors. That whites buy more hip-hop recordings than blacks do is hardly surprising, given that whites vastly outnumber blacks nationwide. More to the point, anyone who claims that rap isn’t black music will need to reconcile that claim with the widespread wariness among blacks of white rappers like Eminem, accused of “stealing our music and giving it back to us.”

At 2 AM on the New York subway not long ago, I saw another scene—more dispiriting than my KFC encounter with the rowdy rapping teens—that captures the essence of rap’s destructiveness. A young black man entered the car and began to rap loudly—profanely, arrogantly—with the usual wild gestures. This went on for five irritating minutes. When no one paid attention, he moved on to another car, all the while spouting his doggerel. This was what this young black man presented as his message to the world—his oratory, if you will.

Anyone who sees such behavior as a path to a better future—anyone, like Professor Dyson, who insists that hip-hop is an urgent “critique of a society that produces the need for the thug persona”—should step back and ask himself just where, exactly, the civil rights–era blacks might have gone wrong in lacking a hip-hop revolution. They created the world of equality, striving, and success I live and thrive in.

Hip-hop creates nothing.

in gd...u should put this there.

and mcwhorter is at it again...

but this is trash at best.

Music, in my opinion, is a reflection of the society in which its set. So, the question must be asked, as it has been since rap's inception, is it the music that holds us back or a society which put black folk in this situation in the first place? Don't get it wrong, we're definitely responsible for our own actions but... where is the line?

Anyway, hip hop was my great liberator.

he didn't get the big piece of chicken.

something they can eat up and say 'see, one of them feels the same way'

this is like the war on drugs where u run street sweeps and claim to be making progress.

THE TRUE CULPRITS ARE...The media outlets that consistently put out stories about the negative aspects of a minority of the Hip Hop family.

Our friend has decided to talk about Melle Mel & his lyrics in the message, why not cite Africa Bambatta (the Godfather of Hip Hop) whose Zulu nation that embodies the TRUE principles of HIP HOP and its initiatives in stopping gang violence and teaching 'kids' in the innner city.

Why not talk about the efforts of Artists such as Krs ONE,Common, Talib Kweli and others in educating the youth about their history & current events?

What about the Stop the Violence movement? supported by the creme de la creme of the hip hop community? Remember the self destruction track???? well aight then!

Why not talk about lobbying the media to stop this relentless attack on our ART by criminalizing it within the psyche of the general public.Continuosly putting out stories about which artist was in possession of a firearm OR which tourbus had some marijuana.The funniest thing is that we are NOT THE ONLY people in possession of firearms.Aritsts from other genres of music possess them;politicians have them and this a problem accross the board.However it is easy to criminalize a genre of music by continously focusing on us:

1)because we're black

2)because we're successful

3)because it is a means to reinforce the stereotypes held by mainstream society.

There is a concerted effort to tarnish the image of blacks and that's why they focus on negative stories about us and our culture.I love Hip Hop and was raised listening to it.Through it I've learned more about my people and history than the school system or any other media outlet.It's opened my eyes to many things and given me a worldly perspective on many things.Not to mention an ability for people worldwide to view our plight as a people as well as the oppressive conditions we live in.That's one of the many positive aspects of the 'message' track that you decided to knock.

Anyway HIP HOP is a vibrant culture that encompasses many different beneficial aspects.....I think it's nonsensical to descredit a genre of music based on what is reported in the media or based on a couple of one sided examples.

I respect your right to have an opinion......but personally I aint feelin' what you sayin'

HOLLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


'Reek come into the party with a cape and a cane' REEK GEEZ (The Pros)

'never coming twice in one form'- Reek Geez (Organix)

What about artist such as the roots,common, de la soul, blackstar? I am tired of idiots like this generalizing a whole form of music simple based on the strength of one part.

We do not control radio,TV, or any other form of distrubution, black people do not control their own image.
some people want to see blacks as pimps,thugs, hustlers etc. That is all they have ever been taught about blacks in the ghetto,we make it bad for ourselves by listening to gangsta rap and doing drugs or having sex.

There is a bigger picture no one will admitt and everyone trys to overlook and this guy does a excellent job of overlooking the obvious.

Oh yeah and since all they focus on is gangsta rap what if we just focus on death metal,racist ska,mysogeny in pop by teens no less. It is this one sided journalism that feeds the media when it comes to black issues.

>>What about artist such as the roots,common, de la soul, blackstar? I am tired of idiots like this generalizing a whole form of music simple based on the strength of one part.

I think this article is discussing so called "mainstream " rap mainly....


>>We do not control radio,TV, or any other form of distrubution, black people do not control their own image.

You dont control the clothjes you buy and choose to wear, the way you act etc?? Just because people are portrayed a certain way in movies/tv shows etc dont mean that its gotta be personafied in real life as well....You do have a choice


>>There is a bigger picture no one will admitt and everyone trys to overlook and this guy does a excellent job of overlooking the obvious.

and what it that?

Peace

>You dont control the clothjes you buy and choose to wear,
>the way you act etc?? Just because people are portrayed a
>certain way in movies/tv shows etc dont mean that its gotta
>be personafied in real life as well....You do have a choice

i agree that we all have a choice, but goddamn man, our choice is far from a free one.. we are SO influenced by every facet of society.. if a certian group of people, say Black People, are portrayed negatively in the media ("the medium by which we're controlled"- mr. lif) then what is the Black population suposed to learn from or follow or imitate or idealize or value? the role models of today's youth are 50 cent and lebron james.. what the fuck are these cats doin for themselves or Black People? they are pawns, controlled by white america, and controlled by society.. they perpetuate white supremacy.. they are models teaching Black Youth to follow the path of rapping about hoes you want to fuck and how many cars you buy in a year and glorifying violent behavior.. they are models teaching Black Youth to play ball all day long, cuz you could have your OWN throwback jersey and a hummer and a mansion or two.. this is what those who control the media teach..

if Black People had a little bit of power, a little bit of autonomy in the industry, maybe the path to follow wouldn't be a dead end.. perhaps it would stress more positive messages such as communal involvement and healthiness.. and freedom and Black History...

peace
liveiLL

>>if Black People had a little bit of power, a little bit of autonomy in the industry, maybe the path to follow wouldn't be a dead end.. perhaps it would stress more positive messages such as communal involvement and healthiness.. and freedom and Black History...

I feel like Black people have a pot of power, potentially. Ufortunately, as a whole theyhavent figured out how to focus that power to gain from it....If you look at something like Buying power alone....instead of buying that expensive ass throwback, cause Bron Bron got one on, and used that money in a more positive way, a shift could take place and the power could be used to further the causes....But like you said, at this point, that shit just aint even an option.....

Peace

When I stated we don't control our image, I understand we have a choice But what if the only picture you see of your own people causes a type of confusion in the mind of young people. Think about it so called mainsteam rap music sticks to the money,cash,hoes formula right
A young kid in the ghetto has no father figure during the formative years and his single parent mother works hard and gives him every oppurtunity she can. Though his mother is teaching him right(Though I realize we have choices) eventual we look outside of ourselves when we are young to help shape ourselves and what do we hear and see that it is o.k. for us to womanize or that the drug game can be a stepping stone to a rap career.
The music won't make him directly go and sell drugs but might cosign the alienation that the child is already feeling, instead of hearing the message of a mos def or a dead prez, Kids get hit with some constant degrading material.

Now I'm not saying you should ban a certain type of music I just think that we need to see the whole of black creation so that we can make better choices. That goes for movies and TV as well(not just a one sided patrial of us as mad thug killers).
We are some of the most programed people in the world and through this programing in the scope of public image black creativity/intellect/expression has been redused to simply natural talent and nothing we can say we learned or perfected. Black people have been redused to the stature of pimps,hoes,gangstas,buffoons,grunts,heavies etc.
If you are constantly told a lie you start to beleive it is true.(i.e. WE have a choice but some of us don't realize it they think life is the ghetto and they were not ment to have anything but that,Many of my homies died with this Ideal and I understand how negative media that we don't control cosigns this type of learned hopelessness)

what happened to just kids being "kids"? his horror over the kids at the kfc or the kid in the subway rapping is LAUGHABLE!

hasnt he been to suburban america? seen the crazy kids of all colors actin' up?

c'mon.

and here's my question, who the FUCK gets to define what IS and what is NOT "civilized"?? is white america "civilized" for listening to kenny g? our country just killed a man's sons in another country, paraded the dead bodies around international television and thats civilized?? please

and theres so much else thats wrong with this article, but i dont have the patience right now

i think it would be safe to say that throwing food in a public restaurants and being disrespectful to the people trying to run the restaurant qualifies as uncivilized.

This week I am reading the Ahmir Thompson (Questlove) interview in The Believer (http://www.believermag.com/) and some of his comments apply here:

"...nine times out of ten, if there's depression, more social depression than anything, it brings out the best art in black people. The best example is Reagan and Bush gave us the best years of hiphop. I think had Carter and then Mondale won, or if Jessie were President from 84' to '88, hiphop wouldn't have existed. I think you would have more black Tom Waitses. Marsalis would be going double platinum. There would be more Joni Mitchells. The Roots would sell ten million."

What was most interesting to me about the article was Questlove's theory that crack is responsible for hiphop. I agree that crack era brought money into the 'hood, as well as danger, street cred (respect), and a false sense of power. Without crack there would be no hip-hop (as we know it). But hip-hop is just an art form and art is about expression, not necessarily education or awareness or even civic engagement.

In the past, hip-hop has been used as a call for action (Public Enemy) but that was more about the community-at-large, not the art. Art reflects life so if the life changes then so does the art. But something bothers me by John H. McWhorter's assertions:

>They were extremely loud and unruly,
>tossing food at one another and leaving it on the floor.

I see this every Friday night around Boston University. Plenty of "extremely loud and unruly" white kids (mostly middle-to-upper middle class) blast their hard rock music and disturb the relative peace of their environment. These white college students "clearly weren’t monsters, but they seemed to consider themselves exempt from public norms of behavior..."

Cleary McWhorter is expressing his Black fear, not concern for the Black community. This is yet another example of double standards.

>Early rap mostly steered clear of the Sapphires and Studds,
>beginning not as a growl from below but as happy party
>music. The first big rap hit, the Sugar Hill Gang’s 1978
>“Rapper’s Delight,” featured a catchy bass groove that drove
>the music forward, as the jolly rapper celebrated himself as
>a ladies’ man and a great dancer.

Many white folks clearly are more comfortable when Black people are happy, not angry or unruly.

some of our best cultural productions have come out of times when we better organized & winning the fight for self-determination.

the harlem renaissance is an obvious example. but we can reference much of the music of the 60's & 70's that most of us can agree was not only much more soul-ful than most of what we have today, but was taking many of our struggles & developments & putting them up for the world to see. some unapologetically, some just riding the bandwagon, but it was clear that during that time your music had to add to or acknowledge the tenor of the times to gain recognition.

i tend to think that hip hop's early ability to respond to reagan-bush era economics & the crack epidemic was an outgrowth of the culture that came before it -- a culture backed by a movement that felt powerful enough to challenge the system head-on. who's to say that if it had continued uniterrupted that it would have resulted in airwaves filled with marsalis-esque placidity? i think the picture would be quite different.

>the harlem renaissance is an obvious example.

The Harlem Renaissance did indeed come out of the "Great Depression". Gospel (slavery), the blues (Depression), or all the great post-depression Black music are examples. The Civil Rights era was on the tail of a period of great Black music. I agree with Questlove when he states that Black music has often been the survival tool for the Black community.

"It's not an expression of art for many people. It's not, Yo man, I can sing. It's, I need help, I need to survive, I need to make money; if I can't do this my life is over."

Even I, a rarely prolific visual artist, admit that some of my best art was made when I was most stressed or depressed. I remember talking to Chuck D about it when I interviwed him years ago. We were talking about the "game of empowerment" as it related to rap/hip-hop. His point was that we need to be able to profit and control what we create.

From Little Richard's "Long Tall Sally" to Jay Z's "Girls, Girls, Girls" we can see a long legacy of brilliance emerging from social depression.

i didn't say there was no merit to it just that the analysis was lacking.

as for the HR, we have to also give credit to the great amounts of political, cultural, intellectual & economic development that was happening at the time.

for heavy metal/punk/hard rock.

I mean, isn't that form of music as anti-social, anti-establishment and anti-life as "gangsta" hiphop is?

the author of this tried to excuse his/her singling out of hiphop by saying other societal poisons such as the sorpranos don't play a much of a role in peoples lives and the shaping of their identites but the fact is that the Ozzy Osbourne types with songs like "Suicide Solution" do play as much of a role in the lives of impressionable self-detrimental suburban white teenagers as hiphop does. this isn't a "everybody does it" thing because I don't excuse the idiocy in hiphop either. I don't support it in record stores and I turn when I see wack ass or just foolish videos. but this is hiphop shit really IS just a reflection of the larger american society. unfournately (as with every problem) when the country as a whole gets the cold.. we (Black people) get pneumonia.






---
Q4K -
OkayActivist Co-Moderator.

word.

when people are in the wrong they often point to other wrong doings to validate their point

write so much while understanding so little?

peace & blessings,

x.

"I'm on the Zoloft to keep from killing y'all." - Iron Mike

culture of poverty types:


McWhorter emerged onto the public intellectual scene in 2000 with the publication of Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America (Free Press), which contends that sociopolitical misconceptions pervasive among black Americans are much greater hindrances to black advancement and interracial dialogue than white racism. He analyzes the cultural ideologies that, since the mid-1960s, have held back so many black Americans from full engagement with mainstream society, and devotes special attention to an insidious anti-intellectualism that is the prime culprit in the school-performance gap between whites and blacks, which cuts across class and income lines. McWhorter also argues that affirmative action policies, while initially wise, today only nurture these self-destructive ideologies, and ought be abandoned “with all deliberate speed.”

The correlation of a lack of a fear of authority does not come by way of hip hop music, it comes by way of this country's laws.

Look, I am probably part of the first true generation of people who came up on hip hop music. Born in 1972, I remember music before hip hop but only sparingly. Rapper's Delight hit the scene when I was about 6 years old and I remember everything from that time on. NWA came out during the years many people consider a person's most influential, yet I wasn't spurned by hip hop to act with anti-social behavior.

What people have to realize is music is not the root to the anti-social behavior, and it is not necessarily all racism and government related. What I have noticed that is a major contributing factor for a disrespect of authority is that authority, because of today's laws, no longer has authority.

Children nowadays have more rights than adults. I always hear from the "time out" parents that if you hit your kids they will fear you and that's not right. Really? So what's right about a child having no fear in their parents? Now don't get me wrong, in no way am I advocating abuse. If your child fears you when they're doing nothing wrong, something's wrong. But believe me, if one day I should have kids, they will fear me when doing something wrong. And they should. That's where the fear and respect for authority comes from -- fear.

Nowadays, kids can threaten to have their parents locked up for disciplining them. Kids have no sense of fear of authority, and naturally, kids want to do whatever they want to do.

Then the time out advocates claim that your child will suffer in shame when you show them how disappointed you are in their actions. Really? If they do suffer, it will be for... let's see ... about a second. Children are naturally selfish. We learn from children to adulthood not to be selfish. Watch a small child and you will see a person who wants what they want when they want it and if they don't get it they throw a tantrum. That's nature. Take a bottle from a baby and they grab for it and cry. How many times have we heard small children yell "MINE" when you want to play with a toy of their's. We are naturally selfish and it's through discipline we learn how and when we are allowed to have and do what we want.

At a young age children do not respond to the same type of punishments you can dispense to teens. I remember when I was younger if you were to put me in "time out" I had enough imagination to make a game out of the shadows on the wall for 15 minutes. Time out would have meant nothing to me at that age. What I did respond to, however, was pain. When I became a teenager is when punishments such as no phone, or no television, or you can't go out really made a difference. And by then I had enough fear of my parents, who I was bigger than both, to obey those punishments. You can set punishments for a teen all you want, but when there is no fear of authority there you will get no response. That's why you start it early while your still able to intimidate. Believe me, it sticks over the years. And that's why the teens responded when the male came out -- because of fear, not respect. The respect is the bi-product of the fear when it comes to authority figures.

These teenagers aren't a product of the music they listen to, they're a product of the ability to call social services if they receive a spanking. They are a product of being able to take their parents to court for locking them in their rooms for the day for not obeying the rules. They are a product of the misguided theory that children can be reasoned with and that time out is punishment enough.

And here's a secret for you: It's not just happening in the black community.

this is some of the most intelligent insight I have ever read on these boards, you get the poster of the day award...

and by the way, I agree with EVERYTHING you said.....


"People make their jokes, and say we're off to see the Wizard
But me and Dorothy and Toto's on yo' ass when you visit"
-Kansas City's own Tech N9ne

If I see eight people of any age throwing food at each other in a public restaurant, I'm going to step to them and tell them to take that stupidity to their house. Everyone in the restaurant should have been confronting them. They were ALL scared. Of 14 year olds. Sigh.

ha.

let me ask you this.

at what point do you say something?

when an errant piece of food hits you upside the head?

kids throwing food at one another in a restaurant is that old dumb shit. maybe you would be scared to say something, but i ain't.

"Errant piece of food."

Thanks that shit had me rollin.

Sittin on the sideline and talkin shit is easier than jumpin in and taking an active role.he was probably searchin out some shit like this to write a piece on...

y'all must be cops or something.

instead of saying something about behavior he obviously had a problem with, he went home and wrote about it.

i think thats their point.

i wasn't there, so I can't call it, but I have personally calmed down young cats who got too out of pocket...depends on what they're doing...throwing food at each other isn't so bad, I guess, unless they're making a terrible mess that someone else will have to clean up. if they're throwing french fries at each other, cool. if they're throwing rotesserie chickens at one another, it's perfectly rational for an adult to step in and tell them to chill out.

youre an idiot

at least not in public where I don't know them from Adam. These young kids have no fear at all and have no respect for any kind of authority. You see he said they didn't even respect the security guard. So you think they gonna listen to your civilian ass? Please. You'd be lucky if one of them young punks didn't pull a gun out and shoot your dumb ass just because. These kids are that bold and have no fear. They have the "don't give a fuck" attitude, and if I don't know 'em, I'm for damn sure not gonna try to check 'em, at least not by myself, and at least not without a weapon to counteract anything they little dumb asses might try to react with....


"People make their jokes, and say we're off to see the Wizard
But me and Dorothy and Toto's on yo' ass when you visit"
-Kansas City's own Tech N9ne

ain't nobody stepping to 8 rowdy 14 year old black kids they don't know from jump in a Harlem KFC - whoever said that is either on some typical internet tough-talk or is just plain kidding themselves - you'd have sat there and wouldn't have said shit.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

like harlem is fucking liberia or some shit.

these weren't child soldiers packing ak-47s. these were a bunch of kids throwing food at each other.

i'm amazed at the level of fear in the world.

let me guess, if they punched you in the head and asked for your shoes, you'd walk home barefoot, right?

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

People scared of kids make me laugh.

When did the older generation of black folks get scared of CHILDREN?

every young black kid has a gun....watch out! hide under your bed, the black children are coming!

I tell loud ass rowdy kids to calm down all the time and guess what? They listen.

You speak with respect and you receive respect.

You speak with fear and you get ridiculed.

You speak because a manager ordered you to and you get ridiculed (like Mr. Rent-A-Cop).

don't play no games. trust me

"They say big men don't cry. but they didn't say it last week — not if they watched Kobe Bryant speak publicly with a moist remorse that was almost Clintonian. "

"Eminem wants to go at Jay Z because everyone recognise Jay Z as the best in the game whether you faggots like him or not." The Source

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

This idiot has obviously never heard a P.E. album. If anything, the Hip-Hop I listened to, and still enjoy(P.E., KRS-ONE, and other socially conscious artists) made me improve as a person. When I heard "Nation of Millions", I remember being totally amazed at the facts that these bothers were dropping. Without a doubt, Hip-Hop made a positive change in my life. I haven't been held back by it in the least, and I can name a bunch of brothers just like me.

>This idiot has obviously never heard a P.E. album. If
>anything, the Hip-Hop I listened to, and still enjoy(P.E.,
>KRS-ONE, and other socially conscious artists) made me
>improve as a person. When I heard "Nation of Millions", I
>remember being totally amazed at the facts that these
>bothers were dropping. Without a doubt, Hip-Hop made a
>positive change in my life. I haven't been held back by it
>in the least, and I can name a bunch of brothers just like
>me.




---
Q4K -
OkayActivist Co-Moderator.

But I haven't listened to Hip-Hop on a regular basis since 92' - which if you think about it, coincicdes with PE's Hiatus.

It did nothing for me in terms of changing my life - it was just music I enjoyed.

Thing is - in today's time - there isn't a PE for kids to listen to and (to me) today's kids respect 50 like they do PE.

Remember when MCs got respect for discouraging Drug Sales?

To me Gangsta Rap in the mold of Ice-T is a different Genre than today's Gangsta Rap - Ice-T told cautionary tales, which ended with a simple message "please stop" or "you'll die if you continue"

Today, Ice would probably be mocked for such phrases.

Truth be told - I think McWhorter is an idiot - BUT, it doesn't mean I'll spend any of my hard earned money on present day Hip-Hop ----- other than the Roots and Tribe.

Regardless of whether or not the author is correct - today's kids don't have a PE to listen to.

Even if they did - one PE doesn't redeem an entire genre, nor does it make it beyond reproach with regards to criticism.



Peace,





M2

At which sad community college?

http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/lingdept/Current/people/facpages/mcwhorter.html

ironically enough, I was skimming through one of his linguistics books, and he was arguing that there is really no such thing as "correct" English - he was talking about language evolution and the processes by which languages adapt and change, and he was arguing that when changes in word definitions or pronounciations occur and become widespread enough to be commonly understood and adapted in common usage, that they in effect become "correct" or accepted parts of the language.

I wonder what he thinks about "bling-bling" being added to the Oxford Dictionary though.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

That's just plain hatin'. He's just venting about all the things that annoy HIM about Blacks. If everything was okay, he'd be writing an article saying Blacks walking with a dip or being too rhythmic in their speech is holding the community back. I tell you what's holding the community back; lack of cash.

this coming from a man quoting a heroine addict.

if the people who love hip hop don't make attempts to criticize it for its shortcomings & possible dangers, are we making room for reactionaries like this dude to spew forth?

rarely have i seen posted on these boards what would be considered a fair criticism of the effects hip hop has on larger black culture. the ones that may get a little dap are those that point out its misogyny. & while those are never really all that deep (or maybe due to the fact), they are hardly summarily trounced like this one was.

to me the danger in continuing on this track is that we'll be forever wholesale defending hip hop because we let those who clearly are afraid or offended by its power & potentials define its faults. i can't think of anything that should not be viewed with a critical eye & we all have our opinions about what the problems are. i think it would be a good idea to let our criticisms be known (shit, allow ourselves & each other to even be critical), thereby safeguarding it from bullshit attacks like this.

if it does happen around these parts then alright. i just don't see a whole lot of it. then again, i may not be looking to tough.

> the people who love hip hop


mcwhorter doesnt strike me as such.

i called him out as a reactionary & said this was a bullshit attack.

for those of us who claim love or respect for hip hop, why are we so slow to criticize?

you know, the violence question is a hard one. since we are blamed for so much & are accused of being the most violent folks around these days (usually by the most violent people history has ever produced), it becomes very difficult to take it one. even if we don't agree with the analysis that gets thrown at us, where are our own? do we (young, hip-hop loving people) try to broaden the understanding of what it means to be violent? do we dig deep into just how culture effects us individually or as a people? how many of us say that nina simone's music is inspiring or that donny hathaway is healing, but the minute people talk about shooting in music we act like it has no effect. it's weird & *ahem* dishonest. i know my comaprisons might come off as a little flimsy here, but you get what i'm saying.

nina & donny's music disappeared for the same reason we now got 50 platnumizing. culture is one of the best forms of warfare out there. i just think it would be a shame if we don't examine it more closely.

>i called him out as a reactionary & said this was a bullshit
>attack.
>
>for those of us who claim love or respect for hip hop, why
>are we so slow to criticize?

the problem with the analyzations so far are that they tend to put hip hop in its own vacuum...which already handicaps and skews any discussion to one side with hip hop being used as the scapegoat. i dont know too many people that have tried to tie in the societal violence in general to hip hop's celebration of violence..the same can be said of mysoginy, and any of the numerous other ills that plague the artform...its a small reflective sample...i dont know that hip hop needs to be analyzed before a serious assessment of the violent culture that birthed hip hop...the problem with that though is if you dont analyze, its as if hip hop has been accepted regardless of right or wrong..

>
>you know, the violence question is a hard one. since we are
>blamed for so much & are accused of being the most violent
>folks around these days (usually by the most violent people
>history has ever produced), it becomes very difficult to
>take it one. even if we don't agree with the analysis that
>gets thrown at us, where are our own? do we (young, hip-hop
>loving people) try to broaden the understanding of what it
>means to be violent? do we dig deep into just how culture
>effects us individually or as a people? how many of us say
>that nina simone's music is inspiring or that donny
>hathaway is healing, but the minute people talk about
>shooting in music we act like it has no effect. it's weird
>& *ahem* dishonest. i know my comaprisons might come off as
>a little flimsy here, but you get what i'm saying.
>
>nina & donny's music disappeared for the same reason we now
>got 50 platnumizing. culture is one of the best forms of
>warfare out there. i just think it would be a shame if we
>don't examine it more closely.

how many of us say
>that nina simone's music is inspiring or that donny
>hathaway is healing, but the minute people talk about
>shooting in music we act like it has no effect. it's weird
>& *ahem* dishonest.


it's 'interesting' to me that people who argue that jay could sell revolution bc he can sell che t-shirts will also argue that jay couldn't sell the counter-revolution.





....

"your only recommendations for adding spice are southern chunky chicks who scream."

i still dont get the punchline of that joke.

of course im hoping your were metaphorically speaking.

go to almost any hip-hop conference...hell, any time two people who like hip-hop get together the convo often turns to criticism of lyrical content, image, etc.

do you mean published criticism?

we have plenty of that as well.

the fact is, the reactionaries will always be there.

& the reactionaries will always try to do their thing.

i don't think we do it alll the time though & i've yet to see it done effectively. if you have some examples please share. i'd love to see if they'd stand up to the zealouts who proliferate this place.

McGruder does a great job of criticizing the effects hip hop has on larger black culture - in fact Riley's entire characterization is the very personification of this.

The crucial point here is that McGruder is able to do so effectively bc he's coming from a perspective of love for and understanding of the culture, as opposed to critics like McWhorter who approach it from a position of ignorance of the culture and utter distain for it - which is why McGruder's criticims have a resonance that McWhorters' sorely lack.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

seeing as how i see it everyday. (i need to try to remember not to come here to often.)

let's just say i mean critical analysis & not just satirizing.

>seeing as how i see it everyday.

Just seeing it everyday doesn't necessarily mean anything - like Westley told Woody, "You can listen to Jimi, but you can't *hear* Jimi."

>(i need to try to remember not to come here to often.)

Yeah, you do.

>let's just say i mean critical analysis & not just
>satirizing.

Satire can be a valid form of critical analysis - and in the case of the Boondocks, it's certainly alot more valid than this uninformed tripe by McWhorter.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

i'm sure it doesn't seem as if i don't have the capacity to understand a comic strip. the point is i'm clearly looking for something different. though i understand its potential, i am not looking for satire, i am looking for well-written, thoughtful analysis. i do believe it's out there & have probably come across some. i'd still like to see more of that. i don't make any excuses for mcwhorter & have been just as critical as everyone else. if you have any links or references i'd love to see them.

You said you had yet to see an effective critique of hip-hop, and asked that if there were some examples to please share. I obliged and caught your attitide for no reason - I don't know you from jump & have no idea whether or not you read the Boondocks, so I don't know where the attitude is coming from, I was just trying to answer your question.

As for the Boondocks, it IS well-written, thoughtful analysis - but if you were strictly looking for a long-winded treatise by some Ph.D, then you should've said so in the first place.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

read my first post, then my second, etc. i was very clear in what i was looking for. if you want to argue for the merits of the boondocks as the kind of criticism that you'd prefer then continue on. but nowhere have i knocked the strip. & nowhere have i suggested that the critiques should be written by a someone with a doctorate or any other academic credentials.

the request was for those of us who love and/or respect hip-hop to go a little furthur with our criticisms, whatever our so-called intellectual standing. for me, this would include well-researched essays, articles, books, and so forth.

No, you were not very clear about what you were looking for. All you originally said is that you were looking for "what would be considered a fair criticism of the effects hip hop has on larger black culture" - that could include alot of different things, including satire like the Boondocks. If you were specifically looking for "well-researched essays, articles, books, and so forth", you should've said so from the start.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

© Waymon Tinsdale III, Strictly Business

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

this was bullshit. didn't even read more than half of it, couldn't take it seriously. but this part made me laugh out loud:

"So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance."

sounds like a skit that could be hilarious or the directors commentary to a collectors edition CB4 dvd.

"They say big men don't cry. but they didn't say it last week — not if they watched Kobe Bryant speak publicly with a moist remorse that was almost Clintonian. "

"Eminem wants to go at Jay Z because everyone recognise Jay Z as the best in the game whether you faggots like him or not." The Source

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

Yeah, I laughed at that line too... sounds like part of Chris Elliot's bit in CB4 when he was commenting on Gusto & co. in his documentary.

------------------------------------------------------------
It's only natural, actual facts are thrown at you
The impact'll blow trees back and crack statues
Million dollar rap crews fold, check the sick shit
Explicit, I crystalize the rhyme so you can sniff it

- Inspectah Deck, "It's Yourz"

were really a force
mcwhorter would have less of an argument
but in lieu of a more eloquent expression of what hip-hop is or isn't
folks like him have a captive audience with their misrepresentation of the form

objectively, he makes some valid points, they're just unbalanced

......................................................................................

May you be in love everyday for the next 20,000 days. And out of that love, remake a world. ~Ray Bradbury

There was an artist...who was disposed to strive after perfection...As he made no compromise with Time, Time kept out of his way and only sighed at a distance because he could not overcome him. ~Thoreau

Or is it benign - neither elevating or holding back - and is merely a form of entertainment?

People mention metal/ozzy osborne/punk rock/etc - sure, just like Hip-Hop those musics are anti-establishment in their own way.

But do people merely listen to it - or do they try to emmulate the music in a cultural fashion that is detrimental to their lives?

I think that's the question to ask when trying to determine if any form of music is truly detrimental.

In my college days, I used to work security at Rock Concerts for extra cash, - some of the people I tossed out of the venues were Redneck Bikers/Drug Dealers/General Miscreants - some of the people I tossed out were Doctors/Teachers/Fathers

I don't think any of them can blame their actions/lifestyles, be they positive or negative on the band they paid to see live.

Can the same be said for Hip-Hop?

That it has absolutely no effect, positive or negative on our nation's youth?

When I ask this question - I'm not talking about Suburban White Kids - I grew up around those kids, went to college with them and live around them now - and they listen to 50 on their way accross the bridge to work on Wall St.

Not worried about them.

I'm wondering about the Black Kids - are Black kids picking up a 50 cent record and deciding they should be gangsters instead of engineers?

If yes - then the author has a point, if no, then he doesn't.

Regardless, that's the question that should really be asked.

As opposed to the bristling at the idea that someone had the nerve to make general statements about Hip-Hop being detrimental to Blacks - as opposed to just dissing say "MC X" and saying he's spreading ignorance/materialism/has too many hootchie girls in his videos, that while you're drooling over them, still find them ignorant - LOL



Peace




M2

If hip hop does have an effect, it's negligible compared to everything else that young people are exposed to.

You might order some Grey Goose @ the bar cause you heard Jay Z talk about it, but even with a step by step booklet on how to sell hand to hand, it's not gonna happen. At best it puts an idea in your head, an idea that competes with parents, school, religion, Television, movies, books, friends...et cetera

And it goes the other way too. Dudes can yell all they want about 'revolution', but at best it hits the folks who want to hear it, and some folks who are ready to recieve, and they go pick up a book.

Unless cats trying to make a parallel with the US and rwanda, lol.

one
k. orr

if so many blacks did not embrace the anti-establishment ethos prevalent in hip hop culture, more of them could be accepted into the beautiful mainstream culture of america, have a job pushing paper or manufacturing widgets or banging away at a keyboard like some well trained monkey for 60% of their life, spend their weekends mowing their 10x10 crabgrass covered plot with an oversized john deere sitdown lawnmover that makes up for their manhood or wandering around aimlessly in a target searching for that gotta-to-have it, need-to-have-it gadget, while their children indulge on crystal meth and are introduced to the delicacies of the east like bukkake through a high speed internet connection in a bedroom chock-full of posters depicting hooligan negroes.

has an effect on ones mindset and if the music is violent, sexist etc then that will affect you in the long run. The best example of this is drive down your local street listening to some mos def and drive down listening to some mobb deep ( pre r and b" and you'll look at things pretty differently, at least I think so, I'm open to opinions.

ive read both of mcwhorters books, LOSING THE RACE SELF SABATOGE IN BLACK AMERICA, and AUTHENTICALLY BLACK which answers the 1 question that no black person can answer (what is black acting?)...

reading the replies to this message REALLY speaks to the ignorance and immorality of the black community in 2003. when this topic comes up people always say "well rock n roll does it!" or "u dont understand our culture" what is there to understand? and why are BLACK people of all people, comparing our immoral and ignorant behavior to (of all people) WHITE PEOPLE!?!? alot of the things mcwhorter says is hard to swallow but its REAL and we NEED TO HEAR IT. the truth of the matter is that 99% of u all agree with what he said and know that its true, its just the fact that he said it is what pisses u off...

and the references to public enemy are very typical. anytime anyone points out aspects of the black community in 2003 (which u will be hard pressed to find anything positive and productive outside of entertainment and sports), we always make references to THE PAST...public enemy is a part of OUR PAST! talk about the NOW! i dare you.

>
>reading the replies to this message REALLY speaks to the
>ignorance and immorality of the black community in 2003.
>when this topic comes up people always say "well rock n roll
>does it!" or "u dont understand our culture" what is there
>to understand? and why are BLACK people of all people,
>comparing our immoral and ignorant behavior to (of all
>people) WHITE PEOPLE!?!? alot of the things mcwhorter says
>is hard to swallow but its REAL and we NEED TO HEAR IT. the
>truth of the matter is that 99% of u all agree with what he
>said and know that its true, its just the fact that he said
>it is what pisses u off...
>
>and the references to public enemy are very typical. anytime
>anyone points out aspects of the black community in 2003
>(which u will be hard pressed to find anything positive and
>productive outside of entertainment and sports), we always
>make references to THE PAST...public enemy is a part of OUR
>PAST! talk about the NOW! i dare you.

Sure, he might be a corny looking guy that has a cushy university job that allows him to make the statements he makes. However, he makes very, VERY keen observations about hip-hop and it's effects on the black community.

I can guarantee that the majority of the current crop of today's hip-hop listeners and consumers ain't buying PE records! I agree that the more people read the stuff McHorter writes, the more people will begin to think about what they are doing, how they are acting and why they behave the way they do. Unfortunately, as in this post, he's passed off as a coon who doesn't know what he's talking about. Y'all better wake up and look around at what's really going down in black communities and step away from that computer for a little bit..

-c

>However, he makes very, VERY keen observations about
>hip-hop and it's effects on the black community.

He's just talking out the side of his neck.

read the article. now read the replies.

dont u find it odd that he KNEW what u all were gonna say before you all said it!? you all did exactly what he said u would: pointing to rock and roll and "da white man does it too" bullshit, and he clearly states that not all hip hop is negative and on top of that he named the top 10 on the billboard right now...truth hurts but swallow it up and do something about it..

That hip hop made them anti-authority bullshit is exactley that,bullshit

Now I'm not saying hip hop has no influence..but I think he takes it too far

LARDLAD:THE PRO BLACK PROPHET(aka Gnostic)

"When I'm God, the Bible will be on DVD"

TODAY'S PROPHECY:
Album Title: The Gospel According 2 Marx

Artists: The Pro-Black Prophets

1. Intro
2. Soul Prophetics
3. The Republic pt. 1
4. The Culture of Make Believe
5. Nickles and Dymes
6. Exodus ft. Bob marley(remix)
7. Kapital
8. The Republic pt. II
9. Conservaliberals
10. Karmalogy
11.Interlude(Matthew, Marx, Luke , and John)
12. Concrete Zu
13. Phenomenology
14. The Republic pt. III
15. Outro (performed by New York Symphony Orchastra)
16. Hidden track: The Gnostic Gospels (Gnostic, ft. Mos Def and Talib Kweli)

Cover art: black and white picture the pro-black prophets in a boat dressed up like Cuban rebels/che guvara smokin cigars, playin spades, holding our guns. Only color, a red fist on a blag flag that the ship is flying

Coming to stores Febuary 2004

The Pro-Black Prophet sends much love to my new nephew Daric born Monday, June 30th, 2003

THE TRUE CULPRITS ARE...The media outlets that consistently put out stories about the negative aspects of a minority of the Hip Hop family.

Our friend has decided to talk about Melle Mel & his lyrics in the message, why not cite Africa Bambatta (the Godfather of Hip Hop) whose Zulu nation that embodies the TRUE principles of HIP HOP and its initiatives in stopping gang violence and teaching 'kids' in the innner city.

Why not talk about the efforts of Artists such as Krs ONE,Common, Talib Kweli and others in educating the youth about their history & current events?

What about the Stop the Violence movement? supported by the creme de la creme of the hip hop community? Remember the self destruction track???? well aight then!

Why not talk about lobbying the media to stop this relentless attack on our ART by criminalizing it within the psyche of the general public.Continuosly putting out stories about which artist was in possession of a firearm OR which tourbus had some marijuana.The funniest thing is that we are NOT THE ONLY people in possession of firearms.Aritsts from other genres of music possess them;politicians have them and this a problem accross the board.However it is easy to criminalize a genre of music by continously focusing on us:

1)because we're black

2)because we're successful

3)because it is a means to reinforce the stereotypes held by mainstream society.

There is a concerted effort to tarnish the image of blacks and that's why they focus on negative stories about us and our culture.I love Hip Hop and was raised listening to it.Through it I've learned more about my people and history than the school system or any other media outlet.It's opened my eyes to many things and given me a worldly perspective on many things.Not to mention an ability for people worldwide to view our plight as a people as well as the oppressive conditions we live in.That's one of the many positive aspects of the 'message' track that you decided to knock.

Anyway HIP HOP is a vibrant culture that encompasses many different beneficial aspects.....I think it's nonsensical to descredit a genre of music based on what is reported in the media or based on a couple of one sided examples.

I respect your right to have an opinion......but personally I aint feelin' what you sayin'

HOLLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


'Reek come into the party with a cape and a cane' REEK GEEZ (The Pros)

'never coming twice in one form'- Reek Geez (Organix)

well once again like i said, a throwback negro focusing on THE PAST and noone has taken my dare YET to focus solely on the black community as of august 9th 2003 and when you do, you sidetrack and immediately start talking about "da white man", "da media"...it doesnt matter who u blame, THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS FUCKED UP!! we have AIDS out the ass, no fathers in the home, we spend our money like 8 year olds, our music is repulsive and immoral...these things are FACTS and by simply saying "da white man does it too" solves nothing!!! the reason why we havent fixed our problems is because we are too busy BLAMING folks for our own doings!!! VIACOM isnt making the yin yang twins buckdance for the camera with their gold teeth blinging while degrading the shit out of black women...and much props to the roots, dead prez, badu, jill scott...but guess what, THEY AINT EATEN!! and when i say EATING i mean they should be RICH!!! talib kweli, common, nas they get just as many spins as these other niggas, the bottom line is that black folks wanna hear that ignorant shit, its a hard pill to swallow but its just the truth!!!

bottom line the black community is in the WORST shape its been in EVER!! PERIOD!! and if you honestly think that hip hop music/culture isnt to blame, you are in denial straight up.

>well once again like i said, a throwback negro

UMMMM.....WHAT AN INTELLIGENT WAY TO START OFF A POST

focusing on
>THE PAST and noone has taken my dare YET to focus solely on
>the black community as of august 9th 2003 and when you do,
>you sidetrack and immediately start talking about "da white
>man", "da media"

FIRSTLY MY POST WAS A DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE LEAD POST AND NOT TO YOURS.I DIDN'T READ YOURS, NOR DO I CARE TO.THE LEAD POST WAS ABOUT HOW HIP HOP HOLDS BLACK PEOPLE BACK.I OFFERED A REBUTLE BASED ON ALL THE REFERENCES GIVEN IN THE INITIAL POST.SOME OF MY REFERENCES WERE TO DO WITH OLD SCHOOL HIP HOP BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL POST INCLUDED REFERENCES TO MELLE MEL,NWA,ICE T AND SO FORTH.

...it doesnt matter who u blame, THE BLACK
>COMMUNITY IS FUCKED UP!! we have AIDS out the ass, no
>fathers in the home, we spend our money like 8 year olds,
>our music is repulsive and immoral...these things are FACTS

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THE INITIAL POST IS ABOUT HOW HIP HOP HOLDS BLACK PEOPLE BACK, NOT THE TOP 5 REASONS WHY BLACK COMMUNITY IS FUCKED UP.

>and by simply saying "da white man does it too" solves
>nothing!!! the reason why we havent fixed our problems is
>because we are too busy BLAMING folks for our own doings!!!
>VIACOM isnt making the yin yang twins buckdance for the
>camera with their gold teeth blinging while degrading the
>shit out of black women

NOPE BUT VIACOM IS PUTTING IT OUT, AND AS LONG AS THEY'RE GONNA PAY PEOPLE TO MAKE A FOOL OUT OF OUR COMMUNITY,WITHOUT BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE, THEY GONNA DO IT.EXCUSE ME FOR QUESTIONING MEDIA OUTLETS FOR THEIR CONTENT!!!!!

...and much props to the roots, dead
>prez, badu, jill scott...but guess what, THEY AINT EATEN!!
>and when i say EATING i mean they should be RICH!!!

THE ONLY POINT I AGREE WITH YOU ON..IS THEY SHOULD BE RICH..BUT THEY'RE NOT...ASK ANY OF THE ARTISTS ABOVE HOW MUCH SUPPORT THEY GET FROM THEIR LABELS....HOW MUCH THEY GET FOR THEIR VIDEOS OR THEIR ROYALTIES.....

talib
>kweli, common, nas they get just as many spins as these
>other niggas

I BEG TO DIFFER, NAS IS THE ONLY ONE THAT PROLLY GETS ALOT OF SPINS...AND TRUST ME HIS AIRPLAY HAS DIMINISHED SINCE HE STOPPED BEEFING AND STARTED TEACHING...AND WHO U GONNA BLAME THAT ON? HIP HOP OR THE BLACK COMMUNITY???????

, the bottom line is that black folks wanna hear
>that ignorant shit, its a hard pill to swallow but its just
>the truth!!!

WHO MADE YOU THE OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON OF WHAT BLACK FOLKS WANT TO HEAR? BLACK FOLK DON'T EVEN BUY THE MAJORITY OF HIP HOP MUSIC.IT'S WHITE FOLKS.
>
>bottom line the black community is in the WORST shape its
>been in EVER!! PERIOD!! and if you honestly think that hip
>hop music/culture isnt to blame, you are in denial straight
>up.

I BELIEVE THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS IN A BAD CONDITION,BUT I DON'T THINK HIP HOP SHOULD TAKE THE BLAME FOR ALL THE FAILINGS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY......I THINK LACK OF UNITY AND LEADERSHIP ARE MORE TO BLAME....

OH YEAH..ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS IGNORANT FUCKS LIKE YOU...WHO WANT TO STAND ON A SOAPBOX AND SING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS ABOUT 'US BLACKS', TALKING ABOUT HOW IMMORAL OUR MUSIC IS AND THEN IN YOUR OPENING LINE YOU ADDRESS ME AS A THROWBACK NEGRO...CHECK YOURSELF YOU IGNORANT SON OF A WHORE BEFORE YOU EVEN CONSIDER TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS FACING THE BLACK COMMUNITY...

HOLLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!



'Reek come into the party with a cape and a cane' REEK GEEZ (The Pros)

'never coming twice in one form'- Reek Geez (Organix)

THE TRUE CULPRITS ARE...The media outlets that consistently put out stories about the negative aspects of a minority of the Hip Hop family.
Our friend has decided to talk about Melle Mel & his lyrics in the message, why not cite Africa Bambatta (the Godfather of Hip Hop) whose Zulu nation that embodies the TRUE principles of HIP HOP and its initiatives in stopping gang violence and teaching 'kids' in the innner city.

Why not talk about the efforts of Artists such as Krs ONE,Common, Talib Kweli and others in educating the youth about their history & current events?

What about the Stop the Violence movement? supported by the creme de la creme of the hip hop community? Remember the self destruction track???? well aight then!

Why not talk about lobbying the media to stop this relentless attack on our ART by criminalizing it within the psyche of the general public.Continuosly putting out stories about which artist was in possession of a firearm OR which tourbus had some marijuana.The funniest thing is that we are NOT THE ONLY people in possession of firearms.Aritsts from other genres of music possess them;politicians have them and this a problem accross the board.However it is easy to criminalize a genre of music by continously focusing on us:

1)because we're black

2)because we're successful

3)because it is a means to reinforce the stereotypes held by mainstream society.

There is a concerted effort to tarnish the image of blacks and that's why they focus on negative stories about us and our culture.I love Hip Hop and was raised listening to it.Through it I've learned more about my people and history than the school system or any other media outlet.It's opened my eyes to many things and given me a worldly perspective on many things.Not to mention an ability for people worldwide to view our plight as a people as well as the oppressive conditions we live in.That's one of the many positive aspects of the 'message' track that you decided to knock.

Anyway HIP HOP is a vibrant culture that encompasses many different beneficial aspects.....I think it's nonsensical to descredit a genre of music based on what is reported in the media or based on a couple of one sided examples.

I respect your right to have an opinion......but personally I aint feelin' what you sayin'

HOLLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


'Reek come into the party with a cape and a cane' REEK GEEZ (The Pros)

'never coming twice in one form'- Reek Geez (Organix)




'Reek come into the party with a cape and a cane' REEK GEEZ (The Pros)

'never coming twice in one form'- Reek Geez (Organix)

n/m

Here's what your history
books won't show,
Your a dead man for fucking
with american dough.
Mr. Lif

with many good points. However, i think in 2003, rap is much different than it was in 79. back then and earlier it was all about being real. Now rap is real commercial and rappers claim to be real but its all fake, like one big movie. Rap has lost all realness. If blacks are making money by lying about being gangsters, so be it,

Get Rich Or Die Trying - 3.75/5
The Listening - 4/5
Joe Budden - 3.5/5

George Bush, you're lookin like Zoolander, tryin to play tough for the camera - MCA

Do you know who you are?
Do you know who you are fucking with?
Do you know, the access, to weapons, money and power
that we have? We will fucking kill you!

I'm the ugliest version of passed down toxic capitalist
rapid emcee perversion -- I'm America!
Your bleeding-heart liberal drivel gets squashed
Wash em with sterilized rhyme patriot-guided weaponry bomb
from the makers of the devious hearts -- I'm America!
You bitchy little dogs don't even phase my basic policy
The bomb's smarter, my Ronald Reagan's crush Carter
With Bay of Pig tactics makin young men into martyrs - El-P

The bottom line: Anyone who would brazenly steal an election and insert themselves into OUR White House with zero mandate from The People is, frankly – sadly – capable of anything. - Michael Moore

My mind keeps driftin' 'cause I haven't had a spliff in, a long time I'm doin' fine, I feel terrific - Snoop

Homer Jay Simpson quotes:

- He lied to us though song. I HATE when people do that.
- Can't talk...eating.

This guy was on HBO's "On the Record" arguing about Hiphop with Damon Dash about a month ago. And, I do mean "arguing," literally. Damon looked like he was about to cuff ol' dude in the head after some of the stup1d sh1t he said. And, yes, this guy would just sit and watch some groupie kids acting just that: mad groupie. And, yes, like the advocate he is, he would save all his angst and frustration and take it out on all those bullies, who punked him at lunch and after school and called him "Gay" for being so sensitive, with his pen, not a sword. Something's with this guy. He's taking it too personal. Maybe he had a bad first experience with an emcee or something and so now he's lashing out on everybody else. I swear this cat is the black version of Pee Wee Herman. Just look at him.