>Democracy is a very very hard word to define. What sort of a
>definition are you using for democracy here...

Democracy is not so hard to define when you stop dancing around the issues. By absolutely ANY definition of democracy, you cannot have a democratic State while occupy land and creating laws that are one way for one group and another for another group. It is not that hard a concept

>When was the last time you saw a non muslim in Mecca?

When you lose an argument, you really do get desperate. Actually, there is no law that prohibits non-muslims from living in Mecca. I have had non-muslim friend live there. Further, you are trying to create a false impression that "Mecca belongs to muslims and Israel belongs to Jews" and I am saying no, Arabs have a right to the state of Israel.

>You live in the US I live in the UK. These countries are
>meant to be exemplars of democracy and yet the rules you are
>talking about, they violate them. And they are not
>surrounded by people who dont want them there....

What are you talking about. I have no defense or love for either of the countries you just mentioned. You seem to be getting desperate again. As far as being surrounded by people who don't want them there, I suggest you read up on the IRA in Northern Ireland, another example of people who are victims of occupation. In the United States, they have killed most of the people who's land they are occupying, therefore the opposition is minimal. I just hope that Israel doesn't attempt to practice such genocide.


>Not quite true. And for someone who is so fond of looking at
>the root causes of the problem, go and have a look at who
>started the wars in 1948 and 1966 (amongst others) that
>meant that Israel had such a powerful military....
>on...

I suggest you read up on it. From 1916 until 1948, Zionist settlers had participated in acts of terrorism and violence in order to drive the Arab population out.


>Syria is pretending to be democratic. Im sure other Arab
>countries are... What does someone else's land mean? Do I
>have a right to go to Liepzig in Germany, to kick the people
>out of my family house there?

Just because your family has once been kicked out of their home doesn't mean that the Jews have a right to kick people out of their homes. Unfortunately, the Israelis have adopted many of their techniques from the Nazis.

>What people like Hamas and ISLAMIC Jihad?

I am not talking about Hamas and Islamic Jihad. These groups have developed as the intensity of the occupation has developed. If the occupation eases up, then these groups will also disappear. What I was talking about is a movement that has nothing to do with Hamas and Islamic Jihad. A movement that the Israelis love to ignore because they fell compfortable envisioning Palestinians as terrorists.

>On this I agree with you. Much work has to be done on both
>sides for this to happen.

Actually not really. Israel would have to make the first step and end its multi-billion dollar military occupation of Palestine. Then and only then can something be worked out. ONE STATE SOLUTION!

>What does this mean? Surely Israel is also the Jew's
>historic homeland. The Palestinians were nomadic for much of
>their history.

This is a lie that you have adopted in order to feel better about the occupation. At the same time that Palestinians were nomadic, so were jews. However, Palestinians have settled Palestine as their homeland for many centuries before the Israeli occupation of 1947! Hebrew had not been spoken for more than 2000 years, yet they ressurected the language in order to create a justification for nationalism.


>So a campaign of terror to move them from there will show
>the illegality? I do agree that the settlers cause enormous
>problems for the peace process. Guess where the majority of
>those ultra orthodox settlers come from?? The U.S of A.

It is no problem where the come from. The "U.S of A.", just like Israel, is a terrorist state."


>Well, they started off by buying land. Admittedly, they were
>buying land off the British, but I dont see Palestinian
>suicide bombers blowing themselves up here, because of the
>land that the Brits sold (this was before the Balfour
>declaration by the way). Then the Brits granted them
>independance (rightly or wrongly) and the fledgling Israel
>beat off every country surrounding them. It isnt surprising
>that the Israeli's felt some antipathy towards the Arabs who
>were within their own country (which they had fought long
>and hard for. Lets not forget that before Israel had US
>funding, they did it themselves with homemade guns, and
>still won) although this doesnt make it right.

THIS IS IMPERIALISM!!!!!! THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO BUY SOMEONE ELSES LAND FROM BRITAIN!!! GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Stop going on about suicide bombers, it is getting obnoxious. Suicide bombers did not even exist until the 1990s. And ask you friend Begin about the King David hotel and what kind of terrorism the Zionist were up to.

>But in general, I agree, they went the wrong way about
>taking it. Just like the Palestinians are going the wrong
>way about taking it.
>I don't know what trilogy you are talking about. I'm talking
>about Norman Finkelstein, the writer of "The Holocaust
>Industry" and "Image and Reality of the Israel/Palestine
>Conflict"(oh, he destroys Benny Morris in this book).
>
>You mean YOU DIDNT READ THE OTHER TWO BOOKS!!!!!! Well then,
>you arent in a position to argue... ;-)