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Topic subjectRE: Barak did not offer the Palestinians their 'own sta
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3733, RE: Barak did not offer the Palestinians their 'own sta
Posted by Eli_B, Thu Oct-09-03 08:27 AM
>Isnt that largely because they lack the resources to control
>those things.

Dude, you should listen to yourself. So ignorant. Let me tell you something about water resources for instance. Israeli settlements in Palestinian land (The West Bank and Gaza Strip) are strategically built high on hilltops and on top of aquifers. This allows for the Israelis to control the water resources. That's why 200,000 Jewish settlers get to use 85% of the water resources of the West Bank, while 3 million Palestinians get the left over 15% of water resources. Let me repeat 200,000 people get 85% of water resources, while 3 million get 15%!!!!

As far as I remember, they were to be offered
>those things if they could police the land. They proved
>unable to do that. This is not to say it was a great deal,
>or that the Israelis dont screw the palestinians over, but
>you are offering a one sided story. That deal was the best
>deal on the table ever and since.

No, see "Saudi Peace Plan." And the plan Barak offered was not to offer anything else, and it was to be understood as the Final Status agreement and would have forced Arafat to agree to this plan to be the end of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

The six million Jews
>living in Israel arent going anywhere.The "we were there
>first" argument holds no truck with me, because the Israelis
>could equally say that.

The Israelis were not there first. It was the Hebrews/Israelits, and the Cannanites, and the Philistines, the Judeans, and the Samaritans. Not all Jews are descended from the Hebrews/Israelits, only those from the Middle East (sephardim) while the majority of European (Ashkenazi) Jews are converts to Judaism. Meanwhile, all the groups above, intermingled and intermixed, along with other groups who ruled the area, such as the Romans, European crusaders, and were completely Arabized adopting the Arabic language, culture, and the majority became Muslim when the Arab-Islamic conquest of Palestine in the year c. 700 AD. While a handful of Jews remained in Palestine after the Romans exiled them thousands of years ago, Palestinian Arabs have had the longest continuous civilization in what is today Israel and Occupied Palestine. If Israel gives the right of return to Jews who have lived in exile for thousands of years, then is it then only fair to give the right of return to Arabs who have been exiled from their historical homeland after only 55 years?

>And while we are talking about funding, well it isnt as
>though the Arab world doesnt pour millions of dollars into
>terrorist groups (supposedly fighting for palestinians) and
>yet doesnt actually give the Palestinians themselves any
>money to change. This is because the Arabs have alwasy
>regarded the Palestinians as the Pariahs of the Arab world.
>This explains why Palestinians in Israel have lower rates of
>infant mortality and higher rates of literacy than
>Palestinians elsewhere in the middle east.

So because the Arab states fund terrorism is why Palestinians living within Israel Proper have a high infant mortality rate and low literacy rates? Wow, you are really, really ignorant. So the various Arab states are responsible for the well being of Palestinians (Israeli-Arabs) living within Israel Proper? My friend, Israel has sovereignty over Arab-Israeli areas, and since Israel is such a democracy, providing health care and educational and social services that equals those given to Israeli Jews is the democratic responsibility of Israel, and Israel alone.

>Your final point proves mine really. The Palestinians wont
>ever be able to move into a position of negotiation as long
>as that mentality remains.

No, it's not because of a mentality, it's because of power really. The Palestinians can't impose their will or have an equal say in negotiations, because it is Israel with full support of the US that has the power to accept, reject, or impose a solution. Of course, if the Palestinians feel they are being slighted (because Israel has never SERIOUSLY pursued a just solution (justice, what a concept!!!), then Israel will never have security.

>I maintain (because I know Israelis soldiers) that most of
>those people (religous fanatics excepted) arent interested
>in killing innocent people, and humiliating old ladies, and
>many arent interested in joining the army at all, but they
>have to.

Mandatory military service. Democracy at its finest!

>Picture the scene, you are a jumpy 18 year old with a
>machine gun and someone starts throwing rocks at you....
>Or you are a 12 year old and you are going to start throwing
>rocks at a jumpy 18 year old with a machine gun. Would you
>have done that stuff unless you had been told to?

The real scene: 18 yr. old soldiers, in full armor and helmets, with automatic rifles, against 12 year old stone throwers, 100 yards (the length of a football field) away, throwing stones. Even if a 12 year old can throw a stone 100 yards to reach a soldier, don't you think all that armor and a helmet will shield you pretty well? Throwing stones at soldiers is not a lethal, life-threatening act for a fully armed and armored soldier, yet these soldiers feel the need to fire live ammo at soldiers. If they don't mean to kill the 12 year olds, why are the Palestinians who are killed so accurately shot in their heads and chests? That's pretty good aim at lethal areas of the body, don't you think.

So Mr. Amateur, before yo start arguing, research the FACTS, please!