>It's important to realize that changing our perspective will
>not make a fallen world into heaven.

According to your perspective. I have lived otherwise. IN my universe, heaven is a reality when I choose it. Hell is a reality, when I choose it. I choose 1 or the other, according to what I feel my character and spirit needs. Sometimes, I know I have to choose evil, over good, and the other way around. I have learned a great deal from my own choices, and therefore, my actions. Your universe, which fortifies the idea of a "fallen world" tells me, that you believe that we in fact, do live in hell. I agree, and I disagree. Because, it is possible to see and feel both at the same time and therein you start playing with concepts like Orwell's "double think". To love and unlove. To believe and unbelieve. This is what I attempt to practice and, it always, has led me to where I needed to be. Not because, I realized this after I got there, but because I planned it out before hand and made the choice to be there. I am in control over my universe. I thoroughly believe, everything that I desire and want to happen, will happen, as it has always happened, and will always happen. I am in control with the simple idea of choice. Choose 1 or the other. That is some of the philosophy associated with the way I look at perspective.


>Heaven is the end of selfish evil, and complete community
>with God the father.

According to your perspective. Do you see, how perspective, is always present even when you try to seperate yourself from it. You cannot, seperate your filter from your perception or your interpretation of what God is. You believe, that heaven, is the end of hell, and complete "community" with god. By the way, that was a brilliant word..."community"...i agree. Most people think of it as unification. I disagree with that, and we disagree on this point and disagree on it.

double think.

I disagree with your interpretation of "selfish evil" but I agree with your interpretation of "community" because I believe, if god exists, he is here, and has always been here. Not always as in, before us. But, right when we became aware, or when we created the idea of god. There is no difference between creating something and believing it, or finding out about it and believing it. SAME THING according to me. It's a perception split. A double think.


>This world HURTS because man has insisted on "going it
>alone", Insisting that he knows what is best for himself rather than listen to his creator.

Are you not, at this moment, telling me, that you know what is better for me than I know waht is better for me?

We cannot seperate ourselves from our ego. We cannot seperate ourselves from our own flame. Passions, that is what ails us. We believe, and we believe like no other creature, because we are willing to kill for belief. That is why, I love to talk with people like you. You believe, and that is a noble gift, but it also a poison. We do not have the capacity to listen to our creator. If we did, we would understand physics, which in my opinion, is a dead end rode only built as a tool to excersize the mind. To excersize the mind to give the human meaning in life. These are tools. Not means to an end. That is the illusion of science imo. A scientist and a spiritual master, can both reach the same end without being aware of eachother.

What has the creator told you?
Or rather, what have you interpreted with your PERCEPTION to believe what the creator said. It is possible to create mircales by believing in them. At one point in my life, I believed in prophets, and I met many prophets. At another point, I believed in Jesus, and I met Jesus, in the flesh. Anything, taht I want, will occur, as I want it to. That is the power of choice and belief. No weapon is strong enough to challenge the power of the SELF minded individual, taht is beyond and within himself, at the same time.

>Every single ounce of pain and suffering you see ANYWHERE,
>traces directly back to that.

I disagree. Because, a lot of pain, that I have experienced, can be traced to myself. My actions, and my choices created the pain that I felt. I have lived through so much hell in my life man, fa'real, I have been through shit that always left me on the brink of selling my soul to the devil. And you know what?

I did it.

In my heart of hearts, I told myself, that the devil can have my soul if..he does something in return for me. (I was in a christian state of mind, not consciously, but sub - conscoiusly considering I do live in a christian home with christians, and in a christian environment, with christians.)

Following that experience, I felt empty and like a shell. Even more pain, and more agony surfaced, and even more troubles began to materialize. But, the reason I sold my soul, or promised myself, or made myself believe that I did it, was for love of another human being. I would find myself very depressed not being able to feel what I did when I was younger, when I met..."Jesus"..when I discussed the future with "prophets". I felt the pulse of it at those times, the warmth, and the captivating feeling of love it offered. And I chose to give it up. Even if it is all symbolism, this is what I have believed, so It must be true for me. It is "MY" Perception of the universe. How can you dispute that? How can anyone tell me.

"No tek, this is what oyu did, becaus of this and that"...

They are right. But only for themselves, not for me.

>Those who have accepted God's free gift through Jesus to
>transcend this pain and sin through forgiveness and
>redemption will know Heaven... those who ignore their own
>father and maker, and insist that they can make their own
>way, will NOT. Hell.

True. And not true. I gave up my soul. I really believe that. I got it back. How? Well, at the point in my life, where I knew I was living in constant hell, because, how could I not. the events that were taking place, the sheer evil in them, the disgust and hate in them made me shake. But, somehow, in a non caring and loving way, I was able to walk through it. It was my "moment of senseless darness". I think Aldous Huxley made a reference to this when he was discussing the practice and methods of mystics. (Ends and Means). Anyways, my mind turned into mud, it turned into a factory of hate, rape, murder, lust, murder, hate, rape, revenge, redemption, hate, anger, terrible anger, fear, more fear, and more fear, and MORE FEAR. I was a wreck. And I decided to..."help the devil". I tried to figure out, why I was thinking such horrible things about people I loved and what it was making me do it. That is the choice that I made, that lifted me form taht hell. Rather, than fighting "the devil". I tried to understand him. And you know what? In my opinion, the devil is a kid, taht has been raped, murdered, hated, and beaten upon by hands who thought taht he was evil.
Who does that remind you of?

JESUS. Was he, and is he not in my universe, the exact same thing?? Jesus, is the deivl, and the devil is jesus. They are both reflections on opposite poles of reality. As I was to myself, and as myself I am to what I was. Double think.


>That is the bottom line.
>
>So I'd encourage you to be careful, and make distinctions
>between saying things like "hey, let's have a good attitude"
>and saying things like "hey, heaven and hell are just what
>you make of them". Those are two very different statements.

Tell me why they are different. You konw, if I did not choose to be positive, I would not have regained my soul. I think a poet once wrote..."you can only earn a soul, you are not born with it". i disagree. I believe, you have to give your soul up, and try to find it again. That is ultimate love. That is evil destorying love. That is a love, that is more powerful, than what you feel when you got butterflies in your stomach the first time your girl kisses you. tha tis love, that is more powerful than the first time she put her hand on the back of my neck. Shit. I am crazy in love, and only because I chose love, over anything else. I do not suffer anymore. I get frustrated with shit, but who doesn't. But as far as suffering, it does not occur because I understand the reason for suffering. I understand why the devil does what he does and I tried to give him a pat on the back and say..."listen man, its all love". That is my perception on reality. And it has helped tremendously in my healing process.

>
>There is so much misinformation out there. There is so
>much misrepresention.

Yes. Like I am to you, and you are to me. We are both on the same tree but spring from a different root. Double think. Anyway you look at it. You are my brother, as the devil is a brother to christ and vice versa. That is the power of perception. Knowing, that everyone is right. Everyone has truth. All we speak IS the truth. Even when we lie (c) Scarface. Isn't that a comforting thought? Oh, but how nice it feels.

>I learned myself, only recently, on these boards, how many
>people think that Catholicism is Biblical Christianity.
>There is SOOO much misinformation.

I have more respect for you than people who claim that christians are full of shit. You kno why? Because you believe in something that is beautiful...simply god, through the teachings of christ. I mean, how fucking poetically romantic is that shit. You will have a lot of happiness in your life through these methods, or maybe not. Its your choice. But the point is, you made the leap of faith, which I have called a leap of ignorance when I was a non believer in God. The disease that was produced was this. A lot of atheists pride themselves in the fact that they know god does not exist. They can prove it to. But their attitudes are very hostile. They tell ppl they are stupid. They tell ppl they don't know shit or try to convince them of certain undebatable truths. Just as I have done. But was I right in doing so? NO. Because it pushed me further into my ego, into my power of a god. I started to believe that, and I am willing to admit it. Self-worship is not uncommon. It is a beneficial experience because it allows you to realize a lot of "undebatable truths". So you see, I was fooling myself, and righting myself in the same sentence. Double think. That is why I sometimes choose "hell" over "heaven".

Only to learn so that I can help those near me if they ever need it. That is the only reason I ever give a shit about facing the devil, or feelign pain, or sacrificing my body and mind, to shit that most people would call insane. I am just really really fucking curious. And it has hurt, beyond words, I mean, the pain of it, has beat me down to my knees, on the brink of suicide, with addictions and addictions piled up on me, devastated love, devastated family members, the list is fuckign long. But it was roth every damn minute. And would I go back? if i had to, but i don't feel i do. I think i am finding a good balance between that world, and this one. Between your world, and mine. Just accpetance.

I accept your jesus as my saviour only because you believe it. and you said "peace tek" at the end of your message. I know and believe that you are a good person. I can feel it about you, because that is the vibe you give. You try to help just like anyone else, and that is what i love and respect. So, are really any different at all? No, we are exactly the same, speaking the exact same truth. In 2 different languages. That is all. The rest is just a detail, and the fun of debate. To larn about what others think. To let them be, never try to convince them, let them convince themselves of choices that they will inevitably make to lead them where they invetably must go. All with choice. Life is not planned out for us. WE plan our lives and destiny. It is possible, with choice.

>Find the truth.

You already found it. So have I, so has everyone. Why don't we just try to enjoy it. Looking for truth, is like trying to prove that we are in hell, when in fact, we are already in heaven. IN a community of truth speakers. Different language, to the same truth. I have even come to understand the mind of a murdered, a rapist, a burglar, a pedophile, a politician, a priest that wants sex, a man who wnts to sleep with lolita's. It all has a just reason, and it is all rooted in something solid and with substance. It is all truth, i have always wondered why ppl do those things, and now I think I can understand it. I mean, as an example of a pedophile. Is it possible taht that person is so in love with innocence or reconnecting with their youth? (only the surface). But is that possible? I would think so. There was a good russian writer that wrote "lolita", I have not ready it, but apprently he made you think it was okay to love a 12 year old girl. Im sure he had a reason why. He has his truth too.

We just perceive shit differently. And what is worse is that we try to convince others of this truth.

>God is real. Jesus is real. Heaven and Hell are realities
>based on the choice to ignore our creator, or to join him
>like we were designed to.

Oh hell yah.

>peace Tek.

peace fam.