Basically, african culture is nothin but a supermarket for some of you geeks. You take what you want and omit the things which are uninteresting and unpleasing - just like the average American consumer. That's a just another form of imperialism.

From now on I will call you leisure time africans.

At least there are HERE in OkActivists...I won't call anyone out by name.

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I don't consider myself Afrocentric but African centered since I am centered around my people and self who are African.

As far as picking and chosing from certain cultures I have no problem with taking what I think is good and not so good. That is one of the best things that can happen so we won't get so caught up in the cultural clashes that many black folks get so hung up on.

I can follow a Dogon Cosmology Fanti libation practice and eat Yoruba type food.

>I don't consider myself Afrocentric but African centered
>since I am centered around my people and self who are
>African.
>
>As far as picking and chosing from certain cultures I have no
>problem with taking what I think is good and not so good.

so my supermarket metaphor is appropriate


>That
>is one of the best things that can happen so we won't get so
>caught up in the cultural clashes that many black folks get so
>hung up on.

so you admit that you're an American?

>I can follow a Dogon Cosmology Fanti libation practice and eat
>Yoruba type food.

as long as it doesn't cause any trouble, of course. that's pure consumerism.

>so my supermarket metaphor is appropriate

Very inappropriate I don't buy culture from a story I engage in it.



>so you admit that you're an American?

Nope a African in AMERIKKKA
>
>>I can follow a Dogon Cosmology Fanti libation practice and
>eat
>>Yoruba type food.
>
>as long as it doesn't cause any trouble, of course. that's
>pure consumerism.

Nope I don't buy culture from a store just like I am not pigeon holed to one CULTURAL group.

>
>
>>so my supermarket metaphor is appropriate
>
>Very inappropriate I don't buy culture from a story I engage
>in it.

do you know what a metaphoar is? besides, nobody engages in a culture. by contrast, you're engaged by culture.

>>so you admit that you're an American?
>
>Nope a African in AMERIKKKA

maybe an african-american in amerikkka, but no african.


>>>I can follow a Dogon Cosmology Fanti libation practice and
>>eat
>>>Yoruba type food.
>>
>>as long as it doesn't cause any trouble, of course. that's
>>pure consumerism.
>
>Nope I don't buy culture from a store just like I am not
>pigeon holed to one CULTURAL group

unfortunately, there's your skin color, so people will put you in certain category. this categorization imposed on you by the outside will affect you - if you want it or not. you're pigeonholed every fuckin day!

>maybe an african-american in amerikkka, but no african.

So how can you prove that I am not AlkebuLian?
holed to one CULTURAL group


>unfortunately, there's your skin color, so people will put you
>in certain category. this categorization imposed on you by the
>outside will affect you - if you want it or not. you're
>pigeonholed every fuckin day!

Yes people can call me whatever they want doesn't mean I have to say yes massa you are right like you are doing. I don't give a fuck what society says especially one I am not apart of.

Your thinking says because society says I am genetic predisposed to eating fried chicken dying of aids having multipule kids by multipule women and not being able to take care of them being a criminal smoking weed and beer I'm suppose to say yea thats me cause white people say so?

Are you serious???????

>Yes people can call me whatever they want doesn't mean I have
>to say yes massa you are right like you are doing. I don't
>give a fuck what society says especially one I am not apart
>of.

but still you speak the language of the culture you're not a part of... intersting.

>Your thinking says because society says I am genetic
>predisposed to eating fried chicken dying of aids having
>multipule kids by multipule women and not being able to take
>care of them being a criminal smoking weed and beer I'm
>suppose to say yea thats me cause white people say so?
>
>Are you serious???????

Never did I say that. I said you're part of a certain culture. the values, conventions and the philosophy of this culture have affected you - if you want it or not. this is not about genetics.

>but still you speak the language of the culture you're not a
>part of... intersting.

I speak many languages ENGLISH BLACK ENGLISH SPANISH YORUBA and a little SWAHILI and ARABIC. People speak languages of different cultures that is because of trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>Never did I say that. I said you're part of a certain culture.
>the values, conventions and the philosophy of this culture
>have affected you - if you want it or not. this is not about
>genetics.

YES MY CULTURE IS NOT AMERIKKKAN IT IS AFRIKAN IN AMERIKKKA which is a result of the experiences of our people and those of african ancestry.

Consider your position co-signed!!

Delete me's assertion that because you live in America you are a part of the culture is arguable at best. I think it pretty obvious that we are clearly not "fully" a part of American culture... outsiders at best.

And as far as the language... that's not a choice... black people in America speak English by force, not so much choice. The manner in which we have altered the lnaguage is a testament to a lack of acceptance of "American culture" and a creation of our own.

Maybe some of us consider ourselves part of American culture... but I definitely think many of us can accurately say we reject American culture.


_______________________________________
"When I use the word 'love', I am not making an attempt at rhetoric. I am attempting to express a refulgent, unrestrained emanation from the most durable region of my soul..." -George Jackson "Soledad Brother"

is purely American.

Would you suggest that choice is an American concept. Presumptuously, I will beg to differ! I would assert that the polarizing, this or that, dyadic thinking is American.


_______________________________________
"When I use the word 'love', I am not making an attempt at rhetoric. I am attempting to express a refulgent, unrestrained emanation from the most durable region of my soul..." -George Jackson "Soledad Brother"

Cuz it's usually my interpretation that it does.

-Otto

celebrate Kwanzaa?

I just asked a simple question...that's all. I don't understand what Kwanzaa is, or why it is celebrated, that's why I'm asking. Would you like to answer for me, rather than semi-patronize the question? Vouchsafe your knowledge on the subject Malachi...

-Otto

You said that it is your "interpretation" that those that celebrate Kwanzaa do it because of the (as Delete Me calls it) "fad" of "Afro-centricity". You basically co-signed his comment about "supermarket African culture".

Then you say this:

>I don't
>understand what Kwanzaa is, or why it is celebrated, that's
>why I'm asking.

Now, as you have admitted, if you DON'T KNOW why Kwanzaa is celebrated, if you DON'T KNOW what it is about, how can you have an "interpretation" of why some Black people celebrate it? How could you have the audacity and the arrogance to express such an "interpretation"?

All of us encounter things we do not understand, daily. We, as people, perceive those things. In the process of perception comes interpretation. You don't know my experiences. Those who I have encountered who have celebrated Kwanzaa expressed their "afro-roots" in very pretentious ways, that were unordinarily sporadic. If expressing an opinion in a forum specifically designed for that is audacity, well, I'm audacious. If you walk through my city and a homeless man grabs your arm, is your first reaction going to be A) stop kindly, and ask him what he needs and why, in order to understand his situation. B) Going to jump back and tell him to get the hell off. C) Punch him in the face?

Most likely, instinctively it will be choice B. That means you made an interpretation about his motives, which you perceived to be indiscreet. Later on you may want to exercise choice A, but not initially. I have encountered only a few people in my life who celebrate Kwanzaa...but the ones who have, seemed to be making some sort of pretentious statement that was insincere. That is why I asked what I did, the way I did. I just think that since it falls during the same month as Christmas, and Channakah, that it may be some kind of "protest" holiday to make a statement. This type of statement, is what Delete_Me was talking about.

-Otto

Once again, you yourself said:
>I have encountered only a few people in my
>life who celebrate Kwanzaa...but the ones who have, seemed to
>be making some sort of pretentious statement that was
>insincere.

So you made an interpretation about "those who celebrate Kwanzaa", based on a "few people" who IN YOUR OPINION, I repeat, IN YOUR OPINION seemed "pretentious" and "insincere", and then posted that comment on a board frequented by a bunch of Black people...and then wonder why I said your words reek of "audacity" and "arrogance"? Come on, man.

I could care less what my opinion seemed like to you. You're proving my point, directly. You interpret my opinion, without regard for it's real purpose. I notice that if you were really interested an anything other than "winning," you would have addressed my questions about Kwanzaa. But you didn't, because you "interpreted" what I said, and ran with it. Sort of like what you accuse me of with regard to Kwanzaa.


>and then posted that comment on a board frequented by a bunch of >Black people...

But let me get this straight. You want me to curtail my speech simply becasue there are "black people" here. Does that mean I should treat black people differently than I treat white people? What happened to equality? You come on, man.

-Otto

>I could care less what my opinion seemed like to you. You're
>proving my point, directly. You interpret my opinion, without
>regard for it's real purpose.
Your OPINION didn't seem like anything to me. My rebuttal was based on what you SAID. YOU are the one talking about how stuff "seems" to you...you, NOT ME.

>But you didn't, because
>you "interpreted" what I said, and ran with it. Sort of like
>what you accuse me of with regard to Kwanzaa.
What did I "accuse" you of in regard to Kwanzaa? I did nothing of the sort, unless you call repeating what you said an "accusation".

>But let me get this straight. You want me to curtail my speech
>simply becasue there are "black people" here. Does that mean I
>should treat black people differently than I treat white
>people? What happened to equality? You come on, man.
This is where white people really trip me out...trying to make points about "equality", but the points are hardly applicable. Allow me to illustrate, and let's take race out of the issue. Suppose you don't celebrate Christmas, but your next door neighbors do...do you go over to their home, kick your feet up on the table and say "You know, since Christmas is of Pagan origin, and it has turned into such a commercial time of year, since you all celebrate Christmas, It seems to me that you are just a bunch of materialistic, greedy, Devil-worshipping, charlatans..."? Of course you wouldn't do that simply because that would be a rude, insensitive, arrogant lack of decorum. This has nothing to do with "equality", it has to do with manners and common sense.

I assume they don't believe in Jesus, so I share Him with them.


-Otto

Christmas...study your history...a not-too-detailed study will reveal that Christmas, December 25th, decorated trees and Santa Claus all have NOTHING to do with CHRIST or CHRISTIANITY.

-Otto

in Familly, Culture and Community? Most Definitely. Do I believe in the 7 principles:

Unity
Self-Determination
Collective Work and Responsibility
Cooperative Economics
Purpose
Creativity
Faith

Word is bond...

Do I set up seven candles and light them up...no.

which is your right as an American, by God, you are making a statement. From what I have inferred, you don't celebrate it because it is commercialized. But Christmas, eventhough there is not record of December 25th as the exact day, is a celebration of the birth of a savior...commercials or no commercials. Kwanzaa is the exact opposite. It was instituted in the 1960's as a black holiday. Those seven principles are upheld by many whites as well, but the holiday was made to be exclusively black...that means those who celebrate it are trying to make a statement. Take it or leave it. Cuz if it weren't, they wouldn't have put it during December with Christmas and Channakah, and it wouldn't entail universal principles that can only be celebrated by blacks. It marks no special day, or event. It's a politically correct holiday.

-Otto

>Allow me to illustrate, and let's take race out of the issue. >Suppose you don't celebrate Christmas, but your next door neighbors >do...do you go over to their home, kick your feet up on the table >and say "You know, since Christmas is of Pagan origin, and it has >turned into such a commercial time of year, since you all celebrate >Christmas, It seems to me that you are just a bunch of >materialistic, greedy, Devil-worshipping, charlatans..."?

ROFLOL. What's funny is that I do this. The reactions in people faces when you tell them what the origin of Christmas is PRICELESS! lol

just because i think that afro-centricity is bs doesn't mean that i approve of moronic and consumer-oriented shit like christmas either

Instead of doing something positive you just breaking other people down. Somebody goes to school...he's just filling his head full of white man's lies..they try to get in touch with their culture it's another thing... I guess it's just easier to attack people than do something positive. Incidentally, what do you do for a living?, just curious as to how folks planned to finance the revolution.

>Instead of doing something positive you just breaking other
>people down. Somebody goes to school...he's just filling his
>head full of white man's lies..

don't you think that some lies are transferred unconsciously?


<they try to get in touch with
>their culture it's another thing...

I was critizing the way in which people try to get in touch.


>I guess it's just easier
>to attack people than do something positive.

So critique is per se negative?

>Incidentally,
>what do you do for a living?, just curious as to how folks
>planned to finance the revolution.

Daddy.

I'm just saying that the time spent thinking about hypotheticals can be used to create real change.

what is afrocentricity to you? and how do you think it is perpetuated?

______________________________


*TWINNING*

_____________________________
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______________________________


*TWINNING*

It's about your perception of some people claiming to be Afrocentric, which is false to begin with because you think it is just an "American thing"

But it doesn't seem like you are attempting to really understand it. Have fun.

*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>It's about your perception of some people claiming to be
>Afrocentric, which is false to begin with because you think it
>is just an "American thing"

well i don't think it's an american thing but there are tons of stuff that bother me...



______________________________


*TWINNING*

But from what I have observed it has been more than criticized, it has been viciously attacked. Why? Probably because in its attempt to legitimize African history/culture/thought it de-centers European history/culture/thought from being seen as universal/normal.

I'm suspicious of critics when they devote 300 page books arguing against it, and in those 300 pages they only prove they don't know what it is. If the critiques are valid then I think it will only strengthen the initial thrust. People all over the continent and diaspora have been calling for decolonization for the longest.

Ngugi didn't get much heat when he wrote "Moving the centres" because he was speaking directly to Kenyans, but now that it's becoming more global, its become a major problem. When DuBois was planning encyclopdia Africana, when he said it should adopt an African Worlview and be written by only African scholars he was attacked the same way. For what?



*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

>But from what I have observed it has been more than
>criticized, it has been viciously attacked. Why? Probably
>because in its attempt to legitimize African
>history/culture/thought it de-centers European
>history/culture/thought from being seen as universal/normal.

that might be the original goal. reality looks different. it's a pastime activity.


>Ngugi didn't get much heat when he wrote "Moving the centres"
>because he was speaking directly to Kenyans, but now that it's
>becoming more global, its become a major problem. When DuBois
>was planning encyclopdia Africana, when he said it should
>adopt an African Worlview and be written by only African
>scholars he was attacked the same way. For what?

of course they got attacked. especially by feminists.

>It's about your perception of some people claiming to be
>Afrocentric, which is false to begin with because you think it
>is just an "American thing"

About my perception? Most posts in here about "afro-centricity" prove my point. It's a fad, some sort of consumer-oriented symbolic ethnicity..

Moreover, where did I say it's an American thing? Nowhere.

>But it doesn't seem like you are attempting to really
>understand it. Have fun.

Oh really?

these pro black white hippies that are obsessed with black culture? give them about 5 or 6 years post-college and half of them become republicans.

are buzzwords of the educated racist.

not buzz words.

but don't you think they are too often abused by the quasi-intellect who may have read the odd page of a Dr Wilson book etc?

It's like postmodernism. Every two-bit academic thinks he knows what it means, but few actually do...

Edit: Btw, I just realised this is your forum. No offence intended! But my general notion remains...

But since you know about the racist thinking what is EUROCENTRISM?

>But since you know about the racist thinking what is
>EUROCENTRISM? It is racist!

I thought that was fairly clear from my original post. Both are metanarratives; myths that attempt to define some truth relating to origin/identity.

I'm not sure why you thought you should defend this.

Afrocentricity is all about agency subjectivity of African people simply saying not viewing someone else as more important than your people and self.

Eurocentricity is basically being centered around europe but the fatal mistake of eurocentric thought is theft of ideas culture and acting as if it is his own ignoring and acting as if everyone other than the white man is inferior thus it gives the EUROPEAN REASON to justify exploitation/capitalism genocide rape racism sexism etc. etc. etc

Because we have both switched between afrocentrism and afrocentricity. Which word are we using?!

But you wrote earlier that you are NOT afrocentric!!

!!!!!!!!!

Presumably you don't reject the principles that underpin afrocentrism... so what is the essential difference?

Oh you postmodernists...

btw, lyotard is dead. nowadays it's all about thick description (c) clifford geertz. we don't wanna do no harm to others anymore!

Thick description is similar to what Barthes and Derrida were writing about.

>Oh you postmodernists...
>
>btw, lyotard is dead. nowadays it's all about thick
>description (c) clifford geertz. we don't wanna do no harm to
>others anymore!

leisure time africans

:)

I can remember as a teen wearing african paraphanalia... not knowing anything about it, because I thought it was "afrocentric". As an adult, I have absolutely no interest in it now. I find African culture to be rich and enlightening, but it isn't something I identify with 100%... mainly because I only know american culture... just like 99% of black folk. The funny thing about it is, there are a zillion different cultures/ethnicities in Africa, how do you choose the one you want? How far do you trace your lineage to find where you truly come from? Or do you accept your american culture and move on?

>I can remember as a teen wearing african paraphanalia... not
>knowing anything about it, because I thought it was
>"afrocentric". As an adult, I have absolutely no interest in
>it now. I find African culture to be rich and enlightening,
>but it isn't something I identify with 100%... mainly because
>I only know american culture... just like 99% of black folk.

But what many Black folk in Amerikkka don't know is why they do some of the things that due which are directly tied to our cultural traditions in our indigenous lands. I call myself African in Amerikkka to be technical Alkebulanian because I will not allow a European to define who I am. Most "BLACK FOLK can't tell you when they stop becoming African or when they became Amerikkkan!!!!

>The funny thing about it is, there are a zillion different
>cultures/ethnicities in Africa, how do you choose the one you
>want? How far do you trace your lineage to find where you
>truly come from? Or do you accept your american culture and
>move on?

Just because you study cultures in Africa doesn't make anything wrong with it the first nation and cultures I studied were KENYA JOMO KENYATTA Kikuyu etc. etc. etc. Does that mean I am denying what I am which is a African in Amerikkka no. Many people do follow the most popular cultures or well known which can be problematic but folks gotta start somewhere. Many folks can trace their ancestry back if they tried but does that mean you have to be limited to one specific culture no.

If anything I say a fatal flaw of Africans especially from the continent is the cultural divide that caused our BLACK ASSES TO BE SHIPPED HERE. We see the samething here you got Haitians that don't like Dominicans Puerto ricans who don't like Cubans So called West indians who don't get along with Yankee Blacks all of it is a bunch of bullshit what makes it worse is that this divide is caused by our arrogance but perpetuated by racism and white supremacy viewing each other through european eyes.

Oh and I was born in Amerikkka.

>But what many Black folk in Amerikkka don't know is why they
>do some of the things that due which are directly tied to our
>cultural traditions in our indigenous lands. I call myself
>African in Amerikkka to be technical Alkebulanian because I
>will not allow a European to define who I am. Most "BLACK FOLK
>can't tell you when they stop becoming African or when they
>became Amerikkkan!!!!

u just define yourself that way because of yt. a simple inversion.

ancestry culture and environment.

uncle tom calling others uncle toms? hmph!

I don't understand why we have Kwanzaa that is based on a culture that is not ours. What I mean is that the priciples use Swahili words. None of our ancestors spoke that language. That is an SE African language that is a combination of local laguages with Arabic. Our people come from W Africa. This does not make sense. They could have chosen Yorban, Ewe, Fanti, Mandinka, Fulani etc.

>I don't understand why we have Kwanzaa that is based on a
>culture that is not ours. What I mean is that the priciples
>use Swahili wordsNone of our ancestors spoke that language.
>That is an SE African language that is a combination of local
>laguages with Arabic.

Does it really matter it just so happens that at the time when the cultural holiday was created swahili was the fastest growing language in Africa it is a language of trade and was chosen since many people speak it and it was not limited to one cultural group. In West Africa the most common language you may be able to use Fulani cause Fulani are all over.

Our people come from W Africa. This does
>not make sense. They could have chosen Yorban, Ewe, Fanti,
>Mandinka, Fulani etc.

Swahili is a largely spoken language. I just think that it makes more sense to use a language that is more closely related to us. I see how one of my sentences was misplaced and could have caused confusion. Oh well, I hope cat know what I mean.

as it was in the past. Unless you was on the continent or talking to folks directly from the continent the world had little to no information about cultural groups that were not in frequent contact with Europeans.

That is why even today in America unless you look the nations and peoples you can find info on are the ones that were settlers colonies like Kenya, South Africa Congo etc. etc. etc.

>About my perception? Most posts in here about "afro-centricity"
> prove my point. It's a fad, some sort of consumer-oriented
> symbolic ethnicity..

The last post about Afrocentricity that I can recall was last year sometime made by Chike. It was concerning Pan-Africanism, Nationalism, and Afrocentricity. Since then I have not seen any post about it.

However I will say, Afrocentricity is not a fad or even a movement or ideology. Its a mode of thought or tool scholars use when dealing with "knowledge".

People wearing African motifs and incorporating other Africanisms into their lifestyles isn't Afrocentricity but more like pride that has been influenced by it.

Furthermore, feminist wouldn't really critique Afrocentricity itself but the work of someone who made be considered Afrocentric, in terms of gender an Afrocentric if dealing with the subject would try to construct an analysis of gender based on conceptions of how African treated gender, i.e. the works of Ifi Amadiume.


*****
Gina is out of control
I'm out of control
the whole--damn--party
--is--out--of control!
(c) White Bob
*****

What makes them uncle toms?

!!!!!!!!!!

i see myself.

i bet you see only an african...

I see two eyes lips a nose wit two holes ears eyebrows hair mustache chin hair a neck.