Okay, this post is inspired by an bizarre and disturbing exchange between me and Bartek in the lesson. In this thread on Little Brother's mixtape I made a snide remark at another OKP about how his behaviour reminded me of white women down south who would bring coloured people home and cry rape when caught. Anyhow, this white kid who opposes me, as a person of colour, talking about white people in a way that he identifies as a "black man victim role". He argues that I make fun of white people to "be down" with "pissed of black folks from this site" (a racist sentiment from a white person especially). Now, he goes on to tell me that, despite the fact that I am a coloured person who experiences racism and has experienced serious racism throughout his life, that I have no right to reference white people in what he understands as a 'black manner'. If I was black, in other words, he would have no problem with me making fun of white souther racists, despite the fact that I told him I lived in texas as a child and watched my family cry as a cross burned in our lawn. Here is the exchange, you decide:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=514248&mesg_id=514248&page=#517191


Now that you've read the exchange, here is the politics of why I am writing this. People in this forum who know me from when I posted in Activist often know that I am most concerned about class relations, Marxism and working-class solidarity among workers of all races against capitalists of all races. However, I do recognize that the dominant class in our society is overwhelmingly white and as a result the ideologies of male white supremacy are integral to this system. Thus, every now and then, from time to time make fun of the current and historical behaviours of white people that I have experienced either personally or through some literary medium. Furthermore, it is extremely worrisome that he express his disdain for me from some ass backward liberal "i do this because I am concerned about racism" type bullshit. The question, then, is: Does a white kid who does not know me or my life experiences have any place telling me, a working-class person of colour, how I should identify with other races? Can a white person even begin to understand where I am coming from in this regard?

white people enjoy a great amount of priviledge in amerikan society, and across the planet.. one way of exercisin' this privilege is with ignorant statements such as the one that was made to you.. whites expect for non-whites to be "colorblind".. in reality, its hard for any person of color to be "colorblind" becuz he/she does not enjoy the privileges of non-color/white people.. he/she sees color cuz society looks a 'em as a black/red/yellow/brown person.. in contrast, a white man/woman is just a person; no color is usually given...

1

>in reality, its hard for any person of color to
>be "colorblind" becuz he/she does not enjoy the privileges of
>non-color/white people..

How do you know whiteboy?

1) cuz YOU know white boy..
2) if i put on a suit tomorrow, i DONT get looked at like ima steal somethin...

1

'Tek is a fucking clueless immature bougie ass white dude, with no point of reference when it comes to anything outside of his tiny suburban world...But Oh does he wanna be down!!

and to think we never got along! PFFF! hmmm... I think its a trap.

and on different boards too...amazing...and no, it's not a trap..Though we differ on some things, I def respect your opinion and whatchu gotta say
Plus 'tek is a buffoon

peace

Okay, so the Minstrel show fiasco thread was one, this is two, which was the third?

but still, it's a start!
hah

peace

to engender support for your argument with Bartek.

Shame on you!

But at the same time i think that Pink's right in his own way.

This is why I don't address you much anymore. You consistently point out the obvious just to be contradictory rather than come and sincerely explore the issue

With that said, yes, I posted this to garner support. Does that make it a "stunt"? If you think so, then you watch far to much television when you reduce attempts at garnering solidarity to a self-serving stunt. Actually, I felt that my confrontation with Fucktek highlighted several important issues about deluded white people who think they are doing issues of race a great service when, in fact, they are behaving in bigotted manner in the process. Its sad, because I actually liked the guy until he went all Jim Crow (oh no, not another black struggle reference against white racism!!! GASP!) on my right to voice my angst. But, of course moot, you probably couldn't care less. Okay, very well, its a "stunt".

>This is why I don't address you much anymore. You
>consistently point out the obvious just to be contradictory
>rather than come and sincerely explore the issue

Wtf? You're clearly too defensive.

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to above, but suspect it has something to do with a response I gave in your modern policing thread. I put some time into that response, and the points I made - IMO - were valid. Other than my response it went wood, so if you can't handle a little well-spirited confrontation, then any of your future academic threads will be a very lonely place.

>With that said, yes, I posted this to garner support. Does
>that make it a "stunt"? If you think so, then you watch far to
>much television when you reduce attempts at garnering
>solidarity to a self-serving stunt. Actually, I felt that my
>confrontation with Fucktek highlighted several important
>issues about deluded white people who think they are doing
>issues of race a great service when, in fact, they are
>behaving in bigotted manner in the process. Its sad, because I
>actually liked the guy until he went all Jim Crow (oh no, not
>another black struggle reference against white racism!!!
>GASP!) on my right to voice my angst. But, of course moot, you
>probably couldn't care less. Okay, very well, its a "stunt".

You're deluding yourself if you think you came across any differently to Bartek in your cute exchange.

>Wtf? You're clearly too defensive.
>
>I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to above, but
>suspect it has something to do with a response I gave in your
>modern policing thread. I put some time into that response,
>and the points I made - IMO - were valid. Other than my
>response it went wood, so if you can't handle a little
>well-spirited confrontation, then any of your future academic
>threads will be a very lonely place.

Okay, this has nothing to do with that modern policing thread. I abandoned that thread because I got caught up in papers and exams and had to stay away from writing essay long political answers on okayplayer. With that said, as long as handling confrontation there is no problem as long as there is a valid point of contention and debate. But, you seem to like to make little "nice stunt" type comments often. If you're sincere about understanding where I'm coming from, don't be a Bartek. All you need to do is just ask me and I'll explain. That is all good sir.


>You're deluding yourself if you think you came across any
>differently to Bartek in your cute exchange.

Well, in my defense, he came at me extremely profanely. I don't need to give respectful answers to those who do not deserve them. I'm all about class struggle; if the opposing class isn't going to listen I don't have to tell them anything. I'm more than happy to just take what is mine.

>Well, in my defense, he came at me extremely profanely. I
>don't need to give respectful answers to those who do not
>deserve them. I'm all about class struggle; if the opposing
>class isn't going to listen I don't have to tell them
>anything. I'm more than happy to just take what is mine.

Ok, then I'm happy to discuss.

What do you mean by opposing class?

So far, I'm reading this as a catergorisation between whites and non-whites and I've never seen class catergorised in this way before.

YOU'RE WHITE

no but seriously
BarTek's a nut
well-meaning
but quite self-consciously racist
in his own special way
but no
i've never identified iranian with black
seriously
maybe that's how it is in western europe
and i'm not surprised that you experienced
what you did in texas
with that said
i think it's fair for people of color
to identify with each other's struggles
so i'd say he was wrong.

---------------------------------------
"Logic is a tool of the White oppressor class that is invoked to stifle the creative mentation of the Black man" - Dr. Kamau Kambon

I'm so calling my brother this next time I see him. SWEET!

in case you didn't get that memo :)

>i've never identified iranian with black
>seriously

But Bartek is the only one accusing me of equate the two. All I argue is that all people of colour experience global class oppression from a predominantly white ruling class, albeit our particular experiences vary. Now, as a person of colour growing up in North America I think it is natural for non-black people to take an interest in black struggles to help them come to grips with their own struggles, simply because race politics and ideals are very much dominated by the black/white divide in America. Most of us have even adopted terms associated with black references towards whites mostly because that has itself become the standard form out counter-racism (for lack of a better word)that is integrated in the general culture is mostly informed by black struggles. I watch Spike Lee flicks, I listen to dead prez, one of my favorite shows growing up was a different world, I read Malcolm X and Angela Davis litterature. Is it any wonder, then, that when I experience racism, I act out in the language of counter-racism that saturates my brain the most?

>I watch Spike Lee flicks, I listen to dead prez, one of my
>favorite shows growing up was a different world, I read
>Malcolm X and Angela Davis litterature.

I guess the difference is that I don't need to watch or read these things to relate. In my blog I referenced Jennifer González' The Appended Subject: Race and Identity as Digital Assemblage.

"...the appended subject describes an object constituted by electronic elements serving as a psychic or bodily appendage, an artifical subjectivity that is attached to a supposed original or unitary being, an online persona understood as somehow appended to a real person who resides elsewhere, in front of a keyboard. In each case a body is constructed or assembled in order to stand in for, or become an extention of, a subject in an artificial but nevertheless inhabited world."

What do we really represent online? You or I can say we're anything but it really is artificial. I am intrigued by the idea of race online. My experiences as a Black woman are real time, everyday kinds of experiences but who I am online is based upon how I want others to view me. This goes for everyone. How am I supposed to know who is real or authentic on a discussion board? Does it even matter?

In this country and other parts of the world the African diaspora is the appended subject, their expressions in form or in movement represent a certain consciousness, class, or gender of the individual or group. González also writes about the appended subject as the colonized subject perceived by an imperial nation such as the United States in the 16th-20th centuries and even the present. This subject is an appendage to the centralized state. Unless you belong to the oppressed group how can you really know what their struggle is like except for what you read or hear? You'd have to include that history, the legacy of slavery, and Jim Crow...all of this makes up the consciousness of the African diaspora. Online it's an idea, a concept...something to discuss but not take to heart.

>I guess the difference is that I don't need to watch or read
>these things to relate. In my blog I referenced Jennifer
>González' The Appended Subject: Race and Identity as Digital
>Assemblage.

Of course, I don't NEED to read or watch these things to relate either, my point is that the major influences for most non-black people of colour in North America are tied into the black struggle. Back in 1996 until about 2000, I worked with a relatively large group called Third World Alliance. Although we were a group representing the issues of all non-white peoples, and altough we were composed of Latinos, Africans, Arabs, Iranians, Philipinos, and Far East Asians (interestingly, since our race analysis was rooted in power and not the superficiality of skin pigmentation -take note Bartek- Japanese folks were excluded from joining. I have since adopted a more class oriented analysis, however I strongly retained this analysis of power), we found that most of the culture, language, and philosophy came directly out of black power movements. Not because we were an organization of "wannabes", as Bartek would like to believe, but because that is the culture of most influence upon all race struggles in this part of the world.

>"...the appended subject describes an object constituted by
>electronic elements serving as a psychic or bodily appendage,
>an artifical subjectivity that is attached to a supposed
>original or unitary being, an online persona understood as
>somehow appended to a real person who resides elsewhere, in
>front of a keyboard. In each case a body is constructed or
>assembled in order to stand in for, or become an extention of,
>a subject in an artificial but nevertheless inhabited world."
>
>What do we really represent online? You or I can say we're
>anything but it really is artificial. I am intrigued by the
>idea of race online. My experiences as a Black woman are real
>time, everyday kinds of experiences but who I am online is
>based upon how I want others to view me. This goes for
>everyone. How am I supposed to know who is real or authentic
>on a discussion board? Does it even matter?

This is an amazing point. I often lose sight of this myself.

>In this country and other parts of the world the African
>diaspora is the appended subject, their expressions in form or
>in movement represent a certain consciousness, class, or
>gender of the individual or group. González also writes about
>the appended subject as the colonized subject perceived by an
>imperial nation such as the United States in the 16th-20th
>centuries and even the present. This subject is an appendage
>to the centralized state. Unless you belong to the oppressed
>group how can you really know what their struggle is like
>except for what you read or hear? You'd have to include that
>history, the legacy of slavery, and Jim Crow...all of this
>makes up the consciousness of the African diaspora. Online
>it's an idea, a concept...something to discuss but not take to
>heart.

Yeah, I agree, our struggles are different in many ways but our oppressor is of the same source. That is all I meant to argue. That and the commodification of black struggle has found its way into a market for other people of colour who seek a local culture to identify with a global problem. For better or for worse, it is the case that many of us oppressed people have found ourselves identifying with black movements.

>my point is that the major influences for most
>non-black people of colour in North America are tied into the
>black struggle.

But how else do non-Black people of color get that information about the Black struggle? Through literature, the media, etc. It's still second-hand. Because Black people have always had to struggle up from the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder we have a different p.o.v. and often react negatively when others talk about being influenced by the struggle.

>we found that most
>of the culture, language, and philosophy came directly out of
>black power movements. Not because we were an organization of
>"wannabes", as Bartek would like to believe, but because that
>is the culture of most influence upon all race struggles in
>this part of the world.

Sure...understood.

Not really the point of your particular post but some of the most racist people I have met in my life have been white so called "liberals."

*Pats you on the back...

My understanding of racism is vastly different to yours.

I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else on this site,
you are all entitled to your opinions of me... however, I will indulge your question because I think it a fair discussion.

I know what I stand for, and I know what I fight against.

A lot of people think of me as racist, because... they simply do not know how to classify and label me. It is easier to label me, than it is to understand me. I am a scary white person... believe it, I know my roots well. I know what my skin colour represents to thousands of people around the world. I know what my skin colour means to those in power. I plan to use my skin colour as a gift. I love my skin colour. I will spend the rest of my life trying to bring tyrants, and racist war mongers to their demise. I will use my skin colour in that task. I have a certain amount of privilege sewn into my skin, and I plan to use that too. I will walk through doors, which you have to shoot your way through. All I want you to remember is, that I fight on your side.

If you think I am a bigot, racist, or the devil incarnate, it does not phase me in the slightest, as I know who I am, and what I stand for. I have total peace of mind. I have clear purpose, and I plan to manifest it.

Finally, your comment inspired anger within me, because, there was zero reference to black struggle, racism, or white people in that post. It was a discussion about mastering. You came into that post, and you made a reference to the evil white man. Your comment was negative as it painted all white people with the same stroke. I am a white person, who has just offered you the truth about my intentions and purpose in life. As harmless as you think your comment was, it was not justified. If the discussion was about white and black relations, I would not have opened my mouth. You took the role of bigot. Not I.

Place yourself in my shoes. You and your friends, both white and black, are talking about music. I walk up to you, and say... "You know, what you just said, reminds me of the struggle Iranian women are facing; the abuse, the beatings, the rape, and the lack of voice."

Was there any justification in my comment?
Was there any need?
Now, you being the only Iranian in the group, would it upset you that, as a white person, I was speaking about issues that pertain only to you? Would it upset you, that you were the only reflection of Iranian men? Would it upset you, if one of your friends gave you a funny look? Would it upset you, if you were suddenly categorized in the same way just because you are Iranian?

Now, imagine you had another discussion about motorcycles, and I once again made a comment about Iranian men abusing Iranian women.

Would it not piss you off that I constantly spoke about the brute Iranian man, when there was absolutley no justification or relevance in my comment?

That is why I found your comment offensive. If there is no relevance, or justification in your comment. Than it is clear, that you were practicing racism and bigotry. If you are interested in racial harmony, why do you consistently paint the white race with such a broad stroke, when you are not even black? why do you consistently speak from the position of a black man, and his experiences, when you are not black? Yes, a cross may have burned on your lawn, but once again.. Was anyone in your family accused of rape by a white women? Please answer my question.

Furthermore, you made this post seeking a third party opinion. Is it because you doubt your argument? You have only pushed this argument in my favor. You wished death upon someone in my family from a suicide bomber, when there was absolutley no reference to that. You said you grew up in Texas... has anyone in your family died to a suicide bomber? One of my closest friends is from the Gaza Strip, she is a woman as well. She has seen and experienced things that your Iranian background has no comprehension of. She would never wish death on anyone from a suicide bomber, even though she lost many of her people under oppressive forces.

Peace

>A lot of people think of me as racist, because... they simply
>do not know how to classify and label me. It is easier to
>label me, than it is to understand me. I am a scary white
>person... believe it, I know my roots well. I know what my
>skin colour represents to thousands of people around the
>world. I know what my skin colour means to those in power. I
>plan to use my skin colour as a gift. I love my skin colour. I
>will spend the rest of my life trying to bring tyrants, and
>racist war mongers to their demise. I will use my skin colour
>in that task. I have a certain amount of privilege sewn into
>my skin, and I plan to use that too. I will walk through
>doors, which you have to shoot your way through. All I want
>you to remember is, that I fight on your side.

I'm not going to pick out specific parts of this passage cuz I think it's good to have it intact. But the faulty logic here is blatant. You can't on the one hand, decry racism, and on the other hand, embrace white privilege. You can't break down the master's house with the master's tools. And as long as you're insistent on the notion that you can use your own white privilege to combat, well, white privilege? You're gonna continue to end up sounding confused, contradictory and, well, racist, to the people whose struggle you claim to identify with. This passage is actually the essence of the liberal white racism that zewari was talking about in the first place.

>...the faulty logic here
>is blatant. You can't on the one hand, decry racism, and on
>the other hand, embrace white privilege. You can't break down
>the master's house with the master's tools. And as long as
>you're insistent on the notion that you can use your own white
>privilege to combat, well, white privilege? You're gonna
>continue to end up sounding confused, contradictory and, well,
>racist, to the people whose struggle you claim to identify
>with. This passage is actually the essence of the liberal
>white racism that zewari was talking about in the first
>place.

Freire also deals with this issue in Pedagogy of Freedom.

Hmm, interesting...

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

...certain of what?

Can you go into some detail of "deals with this issue in Pedagogy of Freedom"...

I am reading a lot of books so i'm just wondering if you could break it down for me.


~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

This is the issue:

>>You can't on the one hand, decry racism, and on the other hand, embrace white privilege.

Freire's Pedagogy of Freedom explores new and more communicative ways of constructing educational theory. The book also provides a history of liberal colonialism as a basis for the theory. For example, in the foreword Donaldo Macedo writes about liberals who safely display their presumed benevolence toward a subordinate cultural group without having to accept that, because of privilege, they are part of a social order that created that reality.

"The position of many liberals in the United States is similar to that of the leftist colonialists, who, in trying to avoid destroying their own position of cultural privilege, found themselves caught in an unavoidable contradiction. This contradiction surfaces often when liberals feel threatened by the legitimacy of the subordinate group's struggle--a struggle that may not only include them but also demand that their liberal treatment of oppression as abstract ideas be translated into concrete political action." pg xxvvii

Freire believed there is a place for liberals in the struggle and held that humanized society required cultural freedom or the ability of the individual to choose values and rules of conduct that violate conventional social norms.

I'm sorry, that does not apply to me... I wasn't born in the United States, and I wasn't born in a country that supported the slave trade. Nice try though.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

>I'm sorry, that does not apply to me... I wasn't born in the
>United States, and I wasn't born in a country that supported
>the slave trade. Nice try though.

tsk, tsk

Ha, you label me, and expect me to accept it. Interesting...

"The position of many liberals in the United States is similar to that of the leftist colonialists...

How can I respond to that? I am not a liberal living in the United States... I am not a leftist colonialist, and you think me a cop out? because I refuse to accept your labels? You see, in order for me to speak about Liberals in the United States, I would certainly have to be one, or at least have some experience with them... your feeble attempts to define me are sheer ignorance and always fall short... I usually just laugh at them and stay clear of your "evidence", your information does not even apply to me... That is why I asked... "How are you so certain?"

I bit my tounge, and that is why I used an Edit and asked you to present your information first, I wanted to be sure, and I wanted to see some of this grand truth that you have found to judge me in such an absolute way.

As I suspected, your evidence missed the mark...

Again...

You are very absolute in your judgements. Example:

"Yup!"

*Insert subjective thought as evidence...*

In your mind, the case is then closed... I find that to be sheer and silly ignorance.

You always fall back on material you have read... you present it as fact... you believe that all the evidence that you agree with, is the truth... which is interesting, but simply opinion... you do realize that books only contain opinions, don't you?

You form absolute opinions based on the research you have done and use it to judge people... In my opinion, that is ignorant bigotry. All you see is my white skin, and you automatically think you can apply your "evidence" to it... As long as we are free to label eachother right?

Yup! (c) Jigga

tsk tsk... Right!

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

Cop out isn't supposed to be a label. You asked about a book and I took the time to tell you about it. That was all it was. Then you respond with something silly. Of course Englishmen and other European countries were colonialist! Of course Western civilization is responsible for slavery and oppression of non-white people (and some white people)! Duh! :D

I think you know that you have a colonialist p.o.v. because you recognize how you benefit from white privilege. Paulo Freire was Brazilian, not from the U.S. If you go back and re-read my post you might see that the quote I posted was from Donaldo Mercado (of Boston) on Freire and his Pedagogy of Freedom. Freire was writing about colonialists in Brazil, the U.S. and all over the world. Mercado was helping to provide a basis for the U.S. folks.

>You form absolute opinions based on the research you have done
>and use it to judge people... In my opinion, that is ignorant
>bigotry. All you see is my white skin, and you automatically
>think you can apply your "evidence" to it... As long as we are
>free to label eachother right?

Incorrect. I do not see your white skin and I am basing my responses on your own words, not how white you are. I assume nothing about you on an online board. You wrote that you've been gifted this "white, priviledged skin color."

One of the symptoms of liberal racism/colonialism is avoidance. You said something that offended some people of color. Rather than respect their differences you attacked them and then avoided your initial response. Liberal colonialists deny holding a racist belief and even consciously reject the racist belief, but unconsciously still act in ways that show they still have the belief. Your reactions and responses on this subject remind me of this.

Your assumption was that 1) I was judging you based on your color and 2) I thought you were American (from the U.S.).

BTW - Check out #44

>Cop out isn't a label.

You labeled me with response no.13. I am here to tell you, that you are mistaken.

You asked about a book and I took the
>time to tell you about it. That was all it was. Then you
>respond with something silly. Of course Englishmen and other
>European countries were colonialist! Of course Western
>civilization is responsible for slavery and oppression of
>non-white people (and some white people)! Duh! :D

"Englishmen and other European countries", another generalization and sweeping statement. Do you know which European country I am from? Once again, you see my white skin, and you define me with a sweeping statement.

If I had a nickle for everytime a black person was offended by generalizations of the same type.

>
>I think you know that you have a colonialist p.o.v. because
>you recognize how you benefit from white privilege.
>

Please read reply no. 27, and tell me if that is a colonialist p.o.v...

Furthermore, Ofcourse I recognize how I benefit from white privelege! I would have to be born blind and deaf in order to be ignorant of it! You don't realize that you make very sweeping statements, such as the one above. So what! I realize how I benefit from my white privelege. What exactly does that prove in your opinion? How does it automatically give me a colonialist p.o.v?

>>You form absolute opinions based on the research you have
>done
>>and use it to judge people... In my opinion, that is
>ignorant
>>bigotry. All you see is my white skin, and you automatically
>>think you can apply your "evidence" to it... As long as we
>are
>>free to label eachother right?
>
>Incorrect. I do not see your white skin and I am basing my
>responses on your own words, not how white you are. I assume
>nothing about you on an online board. You wrote that you've
>been gifted this "white, priviledged skin color."

Right. It is a gift, because, it allows me to walk through doors that black folks have to fight their way through. How many times have I already said that? Also, do you know how I use my white privelege? Once again, read reply no. 27... I am not looking for a pass from you, I do not care what you think! I simply ask you to look at me with a fresh pair of eyes.

The difference lies in how the tool (White Privelege) is used. For example, one man's poison, is another man's medicine. Simply put, a liberal racist/colonialist will use his white privelege to maintain authority over people of colour. He will suppress, and oppress any type of societal growth that you can think of (economical, psychological, industrial, etc.) He will use his white privelege in order to label the man of colour, as a subordinate and deserving of oppression.

Now, a true revolutionary, will use the same white privelege to rise in the system. Reap the benefit of being "invisible", so that he can take the system down from within. Note, this revolutionary did not instill "White Privelege", he is jailed by it, just as much as you are. He does not want it, he does not want to use it to oppress people of colour. He is bound by it, simply by his white skin, simply by his birth. I used to look at my white skin with disgust, just as some people of colour were ashamed of their own skin.

>
>One of the symptoms of liberal racism/colonialism is
>avoidance. You said something that offended some people of
>color.

What did I avoid? Look, this is a post about how racist I am. Am I avoiding it? No. I said something that offended ONE person of colour, who then used his ignorance as a tool to generate public hate for me. Lol! I mean, the irony of his bigotry makes me laugh! I wonder where he learned such dirty and foul tricks!

Rather than respect their differences you attack and
>then avoid your initial response.

Tell me how I disrespected his differences, and please tell me where I avoided "your initial response". I do not even know what you mean by that, so if you could please make that clear for me. I simply called him out on his ignorance, that is the very source and essence of bigotry. There was no justification in his comment, but he chose to sweep the entire white race with a large stroke. Just as you have done. You don't even know which country I was born in, and you generalize me with "and other European countries" Ha! Let me ask you something, have you ever heard a white man say...

"and other African countries..."

How does that make you feel?

And no, I am not English.

Liberal colonialists deny
>holding a racist belief and even consciously reject the racist
>belief, but unconsciously still act in ways that show they
>still have the belief.

Your began our exchange by labeling me with reponse no. 13. You continued to label me with your generalization:

"Englishmen and other European countries"

You set the tone for this "proof" that you speak of. You set yourself up to be "Correct" based on the sweeping statements you used as the catalyst to your argument. Your grouped me with all the Englishment and "Other European countires" without having a source of fact about my roots. Your only "proof" was my skin colour because you know nothing about my roots!

Furthemore, you continue to define me as a Liberal Colonialist based on how I've spoken in this post. If you give this thread a proper read, you will find many contradictions and faults with your argument and definition of me.

Also, please provide me with examples of how I unconsciously acted in racist ways. Knowing now, that your sweeping statements take no root with me. Knowing now, that your evidence does not apply to me, because your evidence is vague, and sweeping. Please provide me with CLEAR examples and CLEAR references.

Your reactions and responses on this
>subject are proof of this.
>

Your reactions and responses on this subject, and of me, are the essence of blindness. You do not know as much as you think about this world and it's people. You do not know as much as you think about Europeans. There is something special and loving that extends beyond your very absolute and limited approach to the problem.

>BTW - Check out #44

I will.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

Lol, you have to be kidding me right?

I am really starting to doubt your ability to deduce fact from fiction.

Take a look at this:

They aren't ours to take, and the focus
>can’t be on us! This is something Bartek needs to learn.

What have I attempted to take? I was accused of being a racist, and I came here to address the sespool of ignorance used to define and label me. You must be mad if you think I will allow myself to be defined so absolutley.

"and the focus can't be on us"

^^^ That is a contradiction. You just said, that we must not get involved in anti racist movements and black peoples movements. So, I am puzzled. If the focus can't be on us as "white people", should it be focused on "black people".

That would imply that we would try to lead black people, exactly what you are saying we cannot do.

Make up your mind.

^^^^

Nettrice, think about your comment:

"Liberal colonialists deny holding a racist belief and even consciously reject the racist belief, but unconsciously still act in ways that show they still have the belief. Your reactions and responses on this subject remind me of this."

Once again, read this:

>"and the focus can't be on us"

>^^^ That is a contradiction. You just said, that we must not get >involved in anti racist movements and black peoples movements. So, >I am puzzled. If the focus can't be on us as "white people", should > it be focused on "black people".

>That would imply that we would try to lead black people, exactly >what you are saying we cannot do.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is this an example of the subconscious racism that you accused me of? The very same thing you COSIGNED?

Finally,

OFCOURSE THE FOCUS HAS TO BE ON US. White people robbed the earth my friend. How can we, as white people not focus on us? lol

Only white folks can dismantle white supremacy. We know how it works, we know how it operates, and we know how to use it. Black folks, lack the experience, so any information they provide on white supremacy will not be objective truth, becuase, black folks will always be the victim. Do you understand?

If you really want to help, you cannot abandon everything and say, "Okay black folks, you guys can govern us now. It's your turn!" You and I know, that this is 2005, and that will simply not happen, and that is what you are suggesting. Sheer lunacy!




~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

"Manson had come to believe that Armageddon was imminent, in the form of race war, and believed he was destined to be the ultimate beneficiary of it. Manson viewed race war as imminent, describing it as Helter Skelter, "all the wars that have ever been fought, piled on top of each other." He told his followers that this was imminent, but that there was a secret underground world reached by a hole underneath the desert, where they would wait out the war in bliss. He described this many times, and it was a part of their communal belief, so much so that they stocked up supplies and searched for the hole prior to the crimes. Blacks would win the war, but be unable to run the world through lack of experience, and the Family would therefore emerge and run it for them as a benevolent autocracy with Manson at the head of this new world order. The war would be triggered by "some black people coming out of the ghetto and doing atrocious crimes... killings... writing things in blood." However, by summer 1969, Manson was heard to say that blacks did not know how to start its role in this war, so he would have to show them." - http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_charl.htm

Compare that to this:

>Only white folks can dismantle white supremacy. We know how it
>works, we know how it operates, and we know how to use it.
>Black folks, lack the experience, so any information they
>provide on white supremacy will not be objective truth,
>becuase, black folks will always be the victim. Do you
>understand?
>
>If you really want to help, you cannot abandon everything and
>say, "Okay black folks, you guys can govern us now. It's your
>turn!" You and I know, that this is 2005, and that will simply
>not happen, and that is what you are suggesting. Sheer
>lunacy!

I have nothing else to say.

quite the indictment!

That's it huh?
Once again.. You see my skin, that's it...

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

and what is a liberal colonialist anyway?

BarTek's point was that he was not from the U.S. and so I brought up another country as an example that the problem is global, not just based on what has happened in the U.S.

A liberal colonialist defends liberty for the individual but is a believer in colonialism, esp. when they benefit. They avoid the collective guilt over the treatment of the oppressed, and feel free to criticize the system. However, they never consider that their position may perpetuate age-old perceptions and practices.

>BarTek's point was that he was not from the U.S. and so I
>brought up another country as an example that the problem is
>global, not just based on what has happened in the U.S.

Yeah, but BarTek is Polish.


>A liberal colonialist defends liberty for the individual but
>is a believer in colonialism, esp. when they benefit. They
>avoid the collective guilt over the treatment of the
>oppressed, and feel free to criticize the system. However,
>they never consider that their position may perpetuate age-old
>perceptions and practices.

oh ok. never heard of that term before.

>>BarTek's point was that he was not from the U.S. and so I
>>brought up another country as an example that the problem is
>>global, not just based on what has happened in the U.S.
>
>Yeah, but BarTek is Polish.

Hey, all white posters write alike (just kidding). I confused him with moot point but it wasn't purposeful. :)

>I confused
>him with moot point but it wasn't purposeful. :)

I see.

>Hey, all white posters write alike (just kidding).

LOL

What?

I can't imagine how you confused us.

>What?
>
>I can't imagine how you confused us.

:D

Your purpose was weak and the point was nullified.

Way to ignore post #51!

Cop out...

It's easy just to label someone and be done with it. Your evidence is very very weak and insignificant.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

When did I say I believe in colonialism?

You are so jaded.



~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

>When did I say I believe in colonialism?
>
>You are so jaded.

No, I am tired of the system.

Clearly, below she stated that it does not matter that I was English, all that mattered is that I was from Europe, since all Europeans are alike. It was "purposeful" (C) Nettrice.

You know the ironic thing is?

I have heard racist comments such as, "All blacks are the same, who cares where they are from."

And I am the bigot?

Right,
Hypocrisy at it's finest.


~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

>I have heard racist comments such as, "All blacks are the
>same, who cares where they are from."

The playing field is not level so there is no comparison.

You can't break down
>the master's house with the master's tools. And as long as
>you're insistent on the notion that you can use your own white
>privilege to combat, well, white privilege? You're gonna
>continue to end up sounding confused, contradictory and, well,
>racist, to the people whose struggle you claim to identify
>with. This passage is actually the essence of the liberal
>white racism that zewari was talking about in the first
>place.

Once again, as I said, I am not concerned with your opinion of me. Truly, I know what I am and what I stand for. I have been provided with several gifts, including my skin colour which I will use to aid me. Finally, what you wrote up there, makes perfecet sense to me, however, it is just your opinion. You speak from a point of ignorance, whereas I speak from a point of experience.

Do you have white skin? No
Do you have white privilege? No
Can you use white privilege? No
Have you attempted to use the master's tools in order to bring down the master? No

Simply put, if the answer is no, you are ignorant to the power of using white privilege.

In order to beat the wolf, you have to become the wolf. I firmly believe in that, and my claws are sharp. As I said, all you need to know is that I fight on your side. My method, is specific to me, because I am a white man, and your method, is specific to you, becuase you are a black man. You can stand up in front of a group of black people. I can stand up in front of a group of white people. Each of us can deliver the same message. Each of us is doing our part. Can you honestly refute that?

Peace

>In order to beat the wolf, you have to become the wolf. I
>firmly believe in that, and my claws are sharp. As I said, all
>you need to know is that I fight on your side. My method, is
>specific to me, because I am a white man, and your method, is
>specific to you, becuase you are a black man. You can stand up
>in front of a group of black people. I can stand up in front
>of a group of white people. Each of us can deliver the same
>message. Each of us is doing our part. Can you honestly refute
>that?

I can definitely disagree with the notion that in order to beat the wolf, you must become the wolf. After all, once you beat the other wolf, all you have left are....wolves. Which you were trying to defeat in the first place. Only now the wolves are supposed to be "friendly"? I hope you can understand why NO person of color could EVER take that stance seriously.

With regards to the other -- certainly, you can speak to a white audience. But the whole point of anti-racist white people talking to white audiences is to get those white folks to understand and REJECT white privilege -- and you've explicitly stated that you will embrace and "use" white privilege. So what's the point of your speaking to a white audience? Your very philosophical position reinforces their worldviews.

Well, let me provide you with an example... I travel across North America, and I speak to high school kids about standing up for what they believe in. My partner and I speak about Sierra Leone, or the Apartheid in South Africa, and we make it very clear that corrupt, white politicians, have oppressed large groups of black folks. That is one example of how I use my white privelege. I don't ask white folks to reject their white privelege, I ask them to use it to fight against oppressive forces. As I mentioned, white folks can walk through certain doors that you have to fight your way through. Think of Che, what was he interested in? Independence and peace, correct? What was his method? Militant force... It would seem that he was a hypocrite, as he was standing up for peace, how could he possibly use militant force? Yet he did, and he has been embraced as a hero. I would certainly say that he had to use some of the force which he was trying to destroy. Many great thinkers conclude that force can be used to defeat oppression, as long as it's dismantled immediatley after.

You raise an interesting point about only wolves remaining. I am not saying I am a wolf, I am saying... I see, from the point of view of a white man, how white privelege is used in order to oppress groups of people. I see the formula, whether in media, social dynamic, politics, etc... Let us begin with media... it takes thousands of people to provide us with news and entertainment... If some of us can rise to a position of influence in the media, we can start to dismantle certain agents which threaten peace and equality. You cannot win this fight without money. So, many of us have to play the game, and many of us have to rise in the system, in order to take control of it. That is what I mean by, "in order to beat the wolf, you have to become the wolf..." Do you think anyone would allow me to walk through a door if I wore a t-shirt stating my true intentions. ha! Doubtful... I have to put on a nice shirt, a nice pair of pants, a nice smile, and meet and greet people which I am trying to educate or take power away from. I have to learn from them, I have to understand their true motives, so that I can search for a solution which would not inspire any violence.

If I am ever confronted by someone who has evil intentions... or wants to fight me... the first thing I do is ask for their name. Why? Well, if you are ever in that situation and are threatened, ask the person's name, and you will begin to dismantle their violent intent. You see, they are expecting you to resist or to fight back, and are prepared to use that energy to hurt you. If you answer them with an energy they do not expect, they become disarmed. It's as simple as asking for a name, and asking them how their day was. I have tried this before. Before I left, the man leaned in to my ear and said, "I would die for you...", he even showed me pictures of his son. Shrug... you cannot ask white people to get rid of their white privelege, you can only ask enlightened white folks to try to educate other white folks about the reality of white privelege. Asking a white person to rid themselves of white privelege, is for a white person, to lock themselves at home, skin themselves, and do nothing except sit at home. That is impossible. Simply having white skin entitles white people to more than you are entitled to. What do you expect white folks to do and say?

"No, I don't want this job because my skin is white, sorry, give the job to a black man..."
"Excuse me officer, you don't know, but I have a weapon on me. I look harmless and just like any other white citizen, but I am dangerous and could hurt someone."

Does that seem logical to you?

I would be interested to hear, a practical way for me to stop using my white privelege. It is not white privelege that is the problem, it is how it is used. Some people use white privelege, to inflict harm on others. Some use it to gain authority and control. However, there are those, and I have met hundred's of them, that use it to fight racism, oppression, inequality. It is our skin. You will never be able to have us reject it, as white people failed to influence black folks reject theirs. Did you simply accept that you were 1 5th of human beings? ofcourse not, that would be to reject your humanity, your very biological make up. How do you expect anyone else in this world to do that? It is not logical, and is much more philosophical and impractical than what I am suggesting.

Finally, I am putting my philosophy into practice almost everyday. I speak to kids, I make them aware. I ask them questions. I get puzzled looks, but always in the end, everyone walks away feeling as if they are empowered. Simply, because, they choose not to look at apperances, but look within. One of our activites is such as this, and if you have ever tried it, than you will understand it's power. Sit in front of someone you don't really know, and stare into their eyes for longer than it is comftorble. Skin colour becomes invisible. I could go on and on, but I just want you to be assured that practical methods are already being used, and if you find fault with them, please say so, and provide me with clear examples of how to reject white privelege.

Peace

>I don't ask white folks to reject their
>white privelege, I ask them to use it to fight against
>oppressive forces.

ergo, you're fundamentally uninterested in challenging white supremacy itself. which is why you are a liberal racist.

>son. Shrug... you cannot ask white people to get rid of their
>white privelege, you can only ask enlightened white folks to
>try to educate other white folks about the reality of white
>privelege. Asking a white person to rid themselves of white
>privelege, is for a white person, to lock themselves at home,
>skin themselves, and do nothing except sit at home. That is
>impossible. Simply having white skin entitles white people to
>more than you are entitled to. What do you expect white folks
>to do and say?

LOL. so basically, rejecting white privilege causes an existential crisis for white people? guess what? DEAL WITH IT. don't try to justify holding on to white privilege because you feel that its absence will leave you w/o identity and/or purpose.

>"No, I don't want this job because my skin is white, sorry,
>give the job to a black man..."
>"Excuse me officer, you don't know, but I have a weapon on me.
>I look harmless and just like any other white citizen, but I
>am dangerous and could hurt someone."
>
>Does that seem logical to you?

no, that seems like some paternalistic bullshit that racists think: that black people want white people to give up their jobs for us based on our skin color.

>I would be interested to hear, a practical way for me to stop
>using my white privelege. It is not white privelege that is
>the problem, it is how it is used. Some people use white
>privelege, to inflict harm on others. Some use it to gain
>authority and control. However, there are those, and I have
>met hundred's of them, that use it to fight racism,
>oppression, inequality. It is our skin. You will never be able
>to have us reject it, as white people failed to influence
>black folks reject theirs. Did you simply accept that you were
>1 5th of human beings? ofcourse not, that would be to reject
>your humanity, your very biological make up. How do you expect
>anyone else in this world to do that? It is not logical, and
>is much more philosophical and impractical than what I am
>suggesting.

your skin != your humanity. that's racist in and of itself.

>>I don't ask white folks to reject their
>>white privelege, I ask them to use it to fight against
>>oppressive forces.
>
>ergo, you're fundamentally uninterested in challenging white
>supremacy itself. which is why you are a liberal racist.

In your definition, what is "white supremacy??

>
>>son. Shrug... you cannot ask white people to get rid of
>their
>>white privelege, you can only ask enlightened white folks to
>>try to educate other white folks about the reality of white
>>privelege. Asking a white person to rid themselves of white
>>privelege, is for a white person, to lock themselves at
>home,
>>skin themselves, and do nothing except sit at home. That is
>>impossible. Simply having white skin entitles white people
>to
>>more than you are entitled to. What do you expect white
>folks
>>to do and say?
>
>LOL. so basically, rejecting white privilege causes an
>existential crisis for white people? guess what? DEAL WITH IT.
>don't try to justify holding on to white privilege because you
>feel that its absence will leave you w/o identity and/or
>purpose.

Lol, did I say anything about identity or purpose. I asked you for clear examples on how to reject white privelege. Please tell me...

>
>>"No, I don't want this job because my skin is white, sorry,
>>give the job to a black man..."
>>"Excuse me officer, you don't know, but I have a weapon on
>me.
>>I look harmless and just like any other white citizen, but I
>>am dangerous and could hurt someone."
>>
>>Does that seem logical to you?
>
>no, that seems like some paternalistic bullshit that racists
>think: that black people want white people to give up their
>jobs for us based on our skin color.

Once again, anything I say at this point, will be easier for you to label as racist, because, you simply do not understand white privelege or white supremacy. I made a clear example, about something that many black folks told me they are angry about, and I put it into a real context. Please, once again tell me, how do I reject my white privelege?

>
>>I would be interested to hear, a practical way for me to
>stop
>>using my white privelege. It is not white privelege that is
>>the problem, it is how it is used. Some people use white
>>privelege, to inflict harm on others. Some use it to gain
>>authority and control. However, there are those, and I have
>>met hundred's of them, that use it to fight racism,
>>oppression, inequality. It is our skin. You will never be
>able
>>to have us reject it, as white people failed to influence
>>black folks reject theirs. Did you simply accept that you
>were
>>1 5th of human beings? ofcourse not, that would be to reject
>>your humanity, your very biological make up. How do you
>expect
>>anyone else in this world to do that? It is not logical, and
>>is much more philosophical and impractical than what I am
>>suggesting.
>
>your skin != your humanity. that's racist in and of itself.

Wrong. I said, that when black folks were labeled as 1 5th of human beings, to accept it would be to reject their humanity.

DO YOU DISAGREE?

I did not say, that it would be to reject their skin colour. Once again, it is easier for you to nitpick and label me, than it is to answer the greater context of my argument. Long story short, you have nothing positive or valuable to add to this conversation.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

ergo, you're fundamentally uninterested in challenging white
>supremacy itself

not true. i am not just trying to challenge it, im trying to bring it down.

if i got you wrong, im sorry. just asking for clarification, peace


@}-,-`-

True indeed, knahmsayin, but when it's real you doin this even without a record contract, knahmsayin? ~ Nas
No question! ~ AZ

http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek/
http://www.myspace.com/bartek

> Truly, I know what I am and what I stand for. I have been
>provided with several gifts, including my skin colour which I
>will use to aid me.



I'm sorry about chimin in here. But, I just wanted to point out your word choice. Whether conscious or sub-conscious, you say skin color's a "gift." This presupposes there's a gifter, and a gifted. I respect all your input, of course. I just wanted to directly bring your eyes back around to what you said: you've been gifted this "white, priviledged skin color." Sorry, but that there reminds me of proselytizing "europeans" spreading their "gifts" of industry, religion, etc. through parts of Africa and Americas and Asia.

>> Truly, I know what I am and what I stand for. I have
>been
>>provided with several gifts, including my skin colour which
>I
>>will use to aid me.
>
>
>
>I'm sorry about chimin in here. But, I just wanted to point
>out your word choice. Whether conscious or sub-conscious, you
>say skin color's a "gift." This presupposes there's a gifter,
>and a gifted. I respect all your input, of course. I just
>wanted to directly bring your eyes back around to what you
>said: you've been gifted this "white, priviledged skin
>color." Sorry, but that there reminds me of proselytizing
>"europeans" spreading their "gifts" of industry, religion,
>etc. through parts of Africa and Americas and Asia.

My word choice was thought out and conscious. The only gifter that I pressupose is life, my parents, and my heritage. I have come across many black folks that refer to their black skin as beautiful. I think that is a beautiful thing, and it taught me to love my own skin colour, because, for a very long time, I couldn't stand the sight of it, directly because of the proselytizing "europeans" and their "gifts". I just want to make it clear that I was not talking about imposing my gift on anyone. I plan to use it as a weapon, that is why I love it. I said, that our world is unfair, but if I can use something that is not fair, to try to tip the balance. I certainly will.

Peace


~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

I actually never read anything you've written before you made my sig... so I'll just quote you on a weekly basis... I'm sure you'll provide me with something.


This weeks nigga please goes to:

BarTek: if you refuse to sell drugs to black folks... The fiends are going to buy from white folks... Nothing is going to change... It's not the dealer's fault...

@}-,-`-

I know the pieces fit, cause I watched them fall away. ~ Tool

True indeed, knahmsayin, but when it's real you doin this even without a record contract, knahmsayin? ~ Nas
No question! ~ AZ

http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek/

it's gonna be alright

I'm done with you. Humour yourself speaking to someone who ain't reading.

@}-,-`-

I know the pieces fit, cause I watched them fall away. ~ Tool

True indeed, knahmsayin, but when it's real you doin this even without a record contract, knahmsayin? ~ Nas
No question! ~ AZ

http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek/

.

---------------------------------------
"Logic is a tool of the White oppressor class that is invoked to stifle the creative mentation of the Black man" - Dr. Kamau Kambon

You chose to ignore reply number 9, which is my answer to your question. Instead, you chose to hurl insults in exchanges with other folks. Finding solidarity in your hate for me.

Your weakness and transparency is noted.



~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

directly. You refuse to understand where I am coming from, you insist on believing that I slander all white people at any chance I get even though you know this is false. All comments that I have made about white people on this site, which I can count on my hand have been references to specific acts, historical and present, associated with whiteness. Then you go on to offend me by just breathing, thus my focus is on discussing this with others. You have already failed to prove yourself as someone who wants to discuss matters like a fellow human being.

In fact, a month ago, the last time things came to a boil between you and me, I inboxed you and thought I would take this matter out with you personally. You never reponded. Its very clear whose transparency is showing here.

No matter how many times I wrote it, I have to type it again...

All comments
>that I have made about white people on this site, which I can
>count on my hand have been references to specific acts,
>historical and present, associated with whiteness.

Yes, I know. I am not refuting the truth of your comments. I am questionning the relevance and justification in them.

*There was none.*

You still fail to answer my question. Was there anyone in your family, that was accused of rape by a white woman, living in the south?

I can answer it for you.

No.

Conversation over.

If you are done with addressing me, keep my name out of your mouth.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

>You still fail to answer my question. Was there anyone in your
>family, that was accused of rape by a white woman, living in
>the south?

So, unless someone has a family member who was raped in the south, they cannot make reference to what they know has happened? Your logic would bring certain death to the study of all history.



>If you are done with addressing me, keep my name out of your
>mouth.


And keep my dick out of yours.

<---Your 2005 SEC Champion University of Georgia Bulldogs

"Brother! Brother!" " He is not your brother.' "what is he then?" "A white man." --Amistad.

I see ya'll house niggas.

and tried to solve the problem privately, yet, he did not respond. Now, he has the nerve to accuse me of being "weak" and "transparent" for trying to out his bigotry publicly. Ain't that somethin'?!

Run along ...


~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

In the Lesson thread that I brought up, a poster named Brown Sugar (male) instigated an inflammatory exchange with Phonte of Little Brother. Phonte responded to BrownSugar using the terms "niglets, crackalets and spiclets", words that BrownSugar apparently took offense to. I stepped in and told BrownSugar to show a little respect to OkayArtists because he stepped in and starting talking shit to Phonte out of the blue and for no real reason. BrownSugar came at me and said he will show respect when Phonte stops saying disrespectful things like "niglet, cracklet and spiclet", as if he was a victim in this situation. Since Brownsugar instigated the contention, I compared Brownsugars behaviour to a white woman down south who would invite coloured folks over for sex and later cry rape. I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous it is for someone to engage someone in a hostile manner and then act like he was the overall victim of the attack. Its called hyperbole, and I don't think it was a malicious statement towards white people or me "taking the victim stance of a black man" (in Bartek's words. It was an exaggerated analogy to make a point about one poster's behaviour in that particular exchange (for the record, the poster I said this to is not black).

bother trying to navigate the mazes of race-related thought and discourse in america, because, unless your thought-process is utterly perfect in every facet to every person examining your mind and drawing big hard conclusions about you...you're just going to waste your time trying to build bridges to people who will then ridicule you for thinking you can even build bridges. you bigot.

so do i believe all of what i just said? not totally, but BarTek: stay pure of heart, stay caring about people, stay seeking knowledge and wisdom (even if you are one of us evil people who isn't ingeniously perfect upstairs), and stay far away from arguments with people who've already made their mind up about you, these topics, and what they believe. thank God for prayer.

The liberal critique of race argues that racial equality can be achieved through reforming white-dominated institutions. Accordingly, it appeals to the sympathy of whites, and places people of color in a subsidiary role of eliciting sympathy, relating their “narratives” (as the PoMo academy has it) and petitioning and marching and protesting police brutality every fucking year.

The radical critique of race argues that white supremacy can only be destroyed through revolution, through a massive restructuring of American society; through reparations to African-American, Native-American and all colonized Third World communities by whites who have concentrated wealth from their suffering. This necessarily involves resource redistribution. If the tax system was restructured, the public school and health-care facilities of American’s black and brown neighborhoods could be fixed tomorrow. Do we see white liberals fighting for this? No, because they're too materially invested in the current system to get off their asses and do something.

If white supremacy is going to be destroyed, the future must belong to people of color, and whites such as myself and others can play a constructive (but not a central) role in this. We cannot co-opt and paternalistically try to lead anti-racist movements. They aren't ours to take, and the focus can’t be on us! This is something Bartek needs to learn. Narcissism is inculcated in us whites by virtue of experiencing ourselves at the political/cultural center from day one, and we need to STEP THE FUCK BACK if we are to be anything but obstacles in the road to human liberation.

I don't know about you guys, but all this hate has got me exhausted. I'm going to take my liberal priveledged Jewish ass to bed, kiss my liberal Iranian girlfriend goodnight and try to dream of the better world that apparently only exists in her little bedroom in Hyde Park.

I'm not trying to play the more-of-a-white-radical-you-game with Bartek. That would be the equivalent of a cafeteria food fight in terms of humility or usefulness on either side. But I've been reading his tactless, paternalistic posts for several years now, and I really wish he'd stop with the bizarre condescension/race-baiting.

>The liberal critique of race argues that racial equality can
>be achieved through reforming white-dominated institutions.
>Accordingly, it appeals to the sympathy of whites, and places
>people of color in a subsidiary role of eliciting sympathy,
>relating their “narratives” (as the PoMo academy has it) and
>petitioning and marching and protesting police brutality every
>fucking year.

I never take part in any protest organized by black folks. The black revolution, is just that, the black revolution. I am fighting for the white revolution. Sorry, your first paragraph fails to identify me. I don't want anything to do with the black revolution. I want to reform white-dominated institutions, for one very simple and clear purpos: To remove oppressive and racist leaders from power. Whatever black folks do there after, is their business. Also, can you please break down this statement for me:

"Accordingly, it appeals to the sympathy of whites, and places
>people of color in a subsidiary role of eliciting sympathy,
>relating their “narratives”"

>
>The radical critique of race argues that white supremacy can
>only be destroyed through revolution, through a massive
>restructuring of American society; through reparations to
>African-American, Native-American and all colonized Third
>World communities by whites who have concentrated wealth from
>their suffering. This necessarily involves resource
>redistribution. If the tax system was restructured, the public
>school and health-care facilities of American’s black and
>brown neighborhoods could be fixed tomorrow. Do we see white
>liberals fighting for this? No, because they're too materially
>invested in the current system to get off their asses and do
>something.

I am fighting for this. I am not a liberal, thus.

>
>If white supremacy is going to be destroyed, the future must
>belong to people of color, and whites such as myself and
>others can play a constructive (but not a central) role in
>this.

I disagree. That is impossible. White supremacy was constructed by the white man, and it can only be deconstructed by the white man. Black folks do not know the power or experience of white privelege, how can they possibly understand how to dismantle it? if black folks decided to dismantle white privelege, what do you think would happen?

In turn, can a white man go into an African country and govern and reform?

No.

We cannot co-opt and paternalistically try to lead
>anti-racist movements.

I do not want to lead any black people, or anti-racist movements. However, I am entitled to my role in it, afterall, I am white, and it was white people that set the prison bars in place. It would be foolish for you and I to think that black people can't help. Black people are more than able to lead themselves. All I want to do is kick a few doors down, share knowledge and experience. I don't want to get involved in the Black Struggle, I am in a White Struggle. I want to make that very clear.

They aren't ours to take, and the focus
>can’t be on us! This is something Bartek needs to learn.

What have I attempted to take? I was accused of being a racist, and I came here to address the sespool of ignorance used to define and label me. You must be mad if you think I will allow myself to be defined so absolutley.

"and the focus can't be on us"

^^^ That is a contradiction. You just said, that we must not get involved in anti racist movements and black peoples movements. So, I am puzzled. If the focus can't be on us as "white people", should it be focused on "black people".

That would imply that we would try to lead black people, exactly what you are saying we cannot do.

Make up your mind.

OFCOURSE THE FOCUS HAS TO BE ON US. White people robbed the earth my friend. How can we, as white people not focus on us? lol

Only white folks can dismantle white supremacy. We know how it works, we know how it operates, and we know how to use it. Black folks, lack the experience, so any information they provide on white supremacy will not be objective truth, becuase, black folks will always be the victim. Do you understand?

If you really want to help, you cannot abandon everything and say, "Okay black folks, you guys can govern us now. It's your turn!" You and I know, that this is 2005, and that will simply not happen, and that is what you are suggesting. Sheer lunacy!

>Narcissism is inculcated in us whites by virtue of
>experiencing ourselves at the political/cultural center from
>day one, and we need to STEP THE FUCK BACK if we are to be
>anything but obstacles in the road to human liberation.
>

^^^ We cannot step the fuck back. What you are suggesting will breed violence. You will not like to be told what to do. So be prepared to live by your words when the time comes.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

...between a decidedly corny ebonics typing style in the "The Lesson" and the innocent tone of a Scandinavian PEACE CORPS volunteer in "Okayactivist".

Not to mention his philosophy is a complete mess. The whole notion that the problem of racism boils down to the existence of racist leaders, rather than the entire mode of material organization is in itself insanely liberal. The idea that all these hundreds of years, that all that was missing was the individual man/woman of genius ignores all the class divisions and institutions of capitalism that have made racism necessary. Its okay, that last post is liberating as hell. I was almost about to take him seriously.

is that BarTek's heart and intentions are CLEARLY in the right place, even if you think his philosphies are flawed or his way of communicating isn't up to your rules of how to talk to people.

dude is CLEARLY wishing for the right overall things for humanity and you people have to bludgeon him to fuckin death, treating him like some kind of bigoted asshole over the "incorrect" details of his outlooks, when the undeniable motivating force behind everything he says is absolutely admirable. this time, he's getting his name dragged through the mud for what? saying you shouldn't stereotype southern white women. maybe you weren't. but he thought you were. so really all you had to do was clarify that in a way that understands how someone could be upset if they thought you WERE stereotyping. its not that hard to have decent human discourse really. it truly isn't if yall social nerds get off your intellectual pitbull high horses and realize most of the people you ridicule on here are good people.

before you get your boys back and maybe I won't even bring up your use of "you people". Uh oh! Anyhow, I told him over and over again what I meant by my comment and he came at ME with profanities and called all sorts of things. So, I think you should look deeper into this before you sweat others for being a little upset at his definite bigotry. In fact, it white people like Bartek that make it hard for people of colour to trust white folks in general. Oh and read the convo if you care so much:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=514248&mesg_id=514248&page=#517191

>before you get your boys back and maybe I won't even bring up
>your use of "you people".

you won't bring it up because it's pretty obvious to most people reading this that i was addressing the people on okayplayer who like to drag each other's name in the mud. had nothing to do with what you hoped i meant by "you people" and you know that's obvious

>Uh oh! Anyhow, I told him over and
>over again what I meant by my comment and he came at ME with
>profanities and called all sorts of things. So, I think you
>should look deeper into this before you sweat others for being
>a little upset at his definite bigotry. In fact, it white
>people like Bartek that make it hard for people of colour to
>trust white folks in general. Oh and read the convo if you
>care so much:
>
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=514248&mesg_id=514248&page=#517191

i read it, and let me remind you that i never said BarTek was right. my point was that dude is clearly extremely concerned and sensitive about issues like race (REGARDLESS of whether you think he should be or whatever, that's not any of our concern)...but to call dude a bigot because he overreacts to racial references? thats the type of shit that kills me, is that people take the imperfections IN SOMEONE'S GOOD CONCERNS and use it to label them a bigot. call him reactionary. call him a bull in a china shop lol. call him something related to flipping out over racial references. but that's not in any way, shape, or form even in the same realm of bigotry. if anything, its actually the opposite extreme.

is classic bigotry. Telling others that people of colour have no place in breaking down structures of white supremacy is bigoted. When no black people on this site have so far taken issue with me and my references to black oppression, yet, this white kid framing himself as the GREAT WHITE HOPE and telling me what struggles I have a right to reference when relating my own racial struggles, we have all the tell-tale signs of a bigot. If it walks like a duck... you know the rest.

and i, for one, don't think you were stereotyping anyone. but he (imo incorrectly) thought you were. him calling you out is not bigotry, its just misguided anti-bigotry.

...but Bartek has exhibited a consistent pattern of warped, missionary-like racial attitudes. His track record has disqualified him from the "victim of the P.C. police" slot you are trying to place him in. The shit he was saying to Pinko Panther and then to Chillsmooth about being proud of his white skin was typical Bartek of his clumsy/ignorant posting style.

and I'm a Marxist. We usually tolerate this shit much more as long as it means we can recruit for the class struggle! lol... just playin', but damn, its unbelievable the shit this kid comes up with.

...at least he provides comic relief

bigot is not the same as overzealous anti-bigot. dude is one of the least bigoted people who post here. you guys don't like how he flies off the handle at nothing, then say THAT. don't come out and start shooting down the aspects about the kid that can make him a greater individual.

its like, if you're white here, and have any kind of social opinions that aren't spineless, you're a bigot.

The definition of bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.

The keyword is intolerant but I couldn't care less about being tolerated. I demand respect on the same level as anyone else and the white privilege comments are not respectful of this opinion...not matter how the light is cast.

>its like, if you're white here, and have any kind of social
>opinions that aren't spineless, you're a bigot.

But what does color matter on a discussion board? What do we really represent online? You or I can say we're anything but it really is artificial. I am intrigued by the idea of race online. My experiences as a Black woman are real time, everyday kinds of experiences but who I am online is based upon how I want others to view me. This goes for everyone. How am I supposed to know who is real or authentic on a discussion board? Does it even matter?

>The definition of bigot is a prejudiced person who is
>intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.

then every damn person here would be a bigot, because anyone who has an opinion that's different gets attacked like they're evil scum


>But what does color matter on a discussion board? What do we
>really represent online? You or I can say we're anything but
>it really is artificial. I am intrigued by the idea of race
>online. My experiences as a Black woman are real time,
>everyday kinds of experiences but who I am online is based
>upon how I want others to view me. This goes for everyone. How
>am I supposed to know who is real or authentic on a discussion
>board? Does it even matter?

clearly does matter in the sense that BarTek's whiteness PART of the reason why his comments are catching so much flak. and why are you trying to turn this into a "who has it worse" contest. i wasn't even trying to get into comparing a white okayplayer message board poster to a black person in the real world. i was just making an accurate observation about this board. that's all.

>>The definition of bigot is a prejudiced person who is
>>intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.
>
>then every damn person here would be a bigot, because anyone
>who has an opinion that's different gets attacked like they're
>evil scum

I don't agree. There are plenty of people who offer their opinion and engage in open discussion (not debate) about issues. Ex. Pygmalion Effect...in effect? in GD.

>clearly does matter in the sense that BarTek's whiteness PART
>of the reason why his comments are catching so much flak.

How can it be? We are online. I don't get how I am supposed to know Bartek has white skin. I only see text and infer that he is representing white people. I judge the words and that's all...and some of the words were offensive to me.

>why are you trying to turn this into a "who has it worse"
>contest.

???

> i wasn't even trying to get into comparing a white
>okayplayer message board poster to a black person in the real
>world.

True.

>i was just making an accurate observation about this
>board. that's all.

Okay but why the defensiveness?

his race

Yet, you continue to hurl insults and you continue to label me. Weak, very weak...

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

.

>...between a decidedly corny ebonics typing style in the "The
>Lesson" and the innocent tone of a Scandinavian PEACE CORPS
>volunteer in "Okayactivist".

CLASSIC!

lol,
Run along...

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

I am over here TRIPPING off homie.

I certainly don't... I'm a man of many talents, I adapt to different situations and I like to vibe with different folks... If you don't like it, I couldn't give half a damn...

@}-,-`-

I know the pieces fit, cause I watched them fall away. ~ Tool

True indeed, knahmsayin, but when it's real you doin this even without a record contract, knahmsayin? ~ Nas
No question! ~ AZ

http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek/

the reduction of class and race struggles in this country or on this globe to "the black struggle" or "the white struggle" is profoundly racist, man. profoundly. yet on the other hand you talk about looking deep in someone's eyes until their skin is translucent. the whole shit is just profoundly contradictory and wrongheaded.

>the reduction of class and race struggles in this country or
>on this globe to "the black struggle" or "the white struggle"
>is profoundly racist, man. profoundly.

Thank you! I have maintained this position for as long as I can remember. Well up until I left business school to pursue Marxist thought and labour activism... haha. Yeah, I think the disappearance of "class" in discussions of exploitation has led much of us back down the racist road of nationalism and nationalist politics. Thanks for bringing this up. In my rage, I sometimes lose sight of what is central to my own political stance. Peace on ya for that.

>yet on the other hand
>you talk about looking deep in someone's eyes until their skin
>is translucent. the whole shit is just profoundly
>contradictory and wrongheaded.

Not to mention comically tragic. Its nothing more than the sentimental fluff of a self-absorbed white liberal windbag bigot.

...

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

If you don't think there is a disctinction, you have a lot of things to learn. Think about black issues that you are facing. Are you telling me that black people do not have a struggle that is directly their own?

Ofcourse they are interconnected. I was simply stating that whites have to take care of racist whites, and blacks have to take care of whatever issues plague their people.

Your logic is completley senile and without proof.

Peace

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

>whites have to take care of racist whites

but I'm not white and you have not right to "take care" of me. Further your attempts to 'teach' me, like a missionary, what racial identities I should identify with is inherently racist. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't disagree with the logic that whites need to work on questioning other whites but they need to question the privelege of other whites rather than wear their privelege with pride, as you suggest.

Respond to number 9.

Also, I thought you were done addressing me.

Get off my dick. (c) You

~After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin, feed me Hip Hop and I start trembling! (c) Rakim

~Yes to Sex.. No to War.. Fighting is Frightening.. Yes to Sex.. It's so Much More Exciting! (c) BEP

http://www.myspace.com/bartek
http://www.soundclick.com/djbartek

You've peaked my heteronormativacuriosity.

All y'all get heart attacks, while I take this one down in history.

peace.

watch your word choice too.

respectfully sumbitted, thread winner.

>The
>question, then, is: Does a white kid who does not know me or
>my life experiences have any place telling me, a working-class
>person of colour, how I should identify with other races? Can
>a white person even begin to understand where I am coming from
>in this regard?

A white person should not be telling a person of colour how they should identify with other races just as a person of colour should not do the same for a white person. The white person cannot understand where you are coming from in this regard, just as you cannot understand where the white person is coming from.

Simple answer to a simple problem you make way more difficult than it should be.

PS-And this is my final white answer.

Yo, I forgot why I haven't visited the activist forum in years...

You guys are fucked up!

LOL.

A bunch of well-intentioned people who wish to change the world for the better at each other's throats over some misinterpreted bullshit.

For real, yall need to team up.

There's 2 sides: GOOD EVIL

Pick one, get a move on, and support your teammates.

Look what happened to Philly when T.O. and McNabb started beefing...

Superbowl dreams down the toilet.

Peace Out

I love you all.

<---Your 2005 SEC Champion University of Georgia Bulldogs

"Brother! Brother!" " He is not your brother.' "what is he then?" "A white man." --Amistad.

I see ya'll house niggas.

ha

You bring up the Superbowl as an analogy? Football is a fascist activity or at least that's what my colleague told his students and he's a former college football player.

How's that?

<---Your 2005 SEC Champion University of Georgia Bulldogs

"Brother! Brother!" " He is not your brother.' "what is he then?" "A white man." --Amistad.

I see ya'll house niggas.

I am so saving this thread, lol.

I think somewhere along the line Bartek asked what would happen when black people tried to break down white supremacy ...

Penny for your thoughts?

>You bring up the Superbowl as an analogy? Football is a
>fascist activity or at least that's what my colleague told his
>students and he's a former college football player.

this is why i need to stay out of politics and discussions like these. i always get sucked into this insanity, when how i truly feel is what you just said.