how do you feel about this situation.

..can you elaborate please?

that the motivation of education is to ensure the survival of a people. The Amerikkkan system is full of EUROpean imperialism and supremacy but it lets european people know they are some crazy hypocritical genodical motherfuckers hell bent on world domination and to get rich or die trying.

To me it is clear why the educational system doesn't relate to Africans especially black males who are public enemy number one.

>that the motivation of education is to ensure the survival of
>a people. The Amerikkkan system is full of EUROpean
>imperialism and supremacy but it lets european people know
>they are some crazy hypocritical genodical motherfuckers hell
>bent on world domination and to get rich or die trying.
>
>To me it is clear why the educational system doesn't relate to
>Africans especially black males who are public enemy number
>one.


Do you think perhaps it is white privilege to afford a different meaning to the 'self'? Because I don't define it in the same way as you do. In fact, I don't actually think there is such thing as a 'self', but that, it seems, is a different debate..

really

>really

..only because the two terms come from two different strands of thought. the ego is a freudian term, i don't know where the idea of self comes from but it seems more of a cultural issue than a psychological one.

is a philosophical question..

view your relationship to the world universe etc. As I stated earlier self in the African centered sense means I AM BECAUSE WE ARE(FAMILY COMMUNITY CULTURE NATION ANCESTORS) not I THINK THEREFORE I AM which is PLUTONIC thought process which is the foundation of Western Academia.

yay for the individual.

nay because it doesn't put food on the table.

on the table?

.

this is what you do. dont let your kids go to public school or college (they are instruments to tear down the black race right? they teach nothing but propaganda right?), just teach them all they need to know about the black race, their history from religion, to africa, slave trade, the whole 9.

by the time your kids are teenagers they are fully equipped to intellectually debate anybody on the history of the black man and what not...but what SKILLS to they possess to put food on the table? without a college education or any skills, what types of jobs will your seeds have outside of manual labor? what good is somebody that knows absolutely NOTHING about the inner workings of "da system" to an employer?

the answer is that you can't get around it. regardless of how u feel about "ameriKKKa", somebody is going to have to learn how to interact with other "ameriKKKans" in order to do business OF ALL RACES, and you are going to have to have SOME type of skill learned on a university or in a classroom somewhere in order to be productive in society...however, mcdonalds and wal-mart are always hiring...

.

c'mon mayne..

for yall to be grown ass men on here in the post civil rights era still questioning the importance of a formal education to a black person in america...yes. this is comedy in its purest form.

Knowledge of Self is where Power emanates. With that said, one had to know self, but defining his self from his reality and experience. African folk gotta define themselves from the African definition of self or else we'll be what we are today.....

No Homo®
No Bongo®

Black Girls Rule.

.

we can meet up & discuss any issues you have with me, as for being an ARAB NIGGA? Da fuck that mean? Im trinidadian!

No Homo®
No Bongo®

Black Girls Rule.

.

further proof that most of the cats who post on here are stoned off on some shit.

yay.

yes.

i agree.

agreed.


..shit, you need to get yourself an education before you try and talk on anyone else getting one.

INGERLISH ONE OH ONE. sign up.

"the best way to vote is republican, yes or no?"

- agreed.

"do u have a dollar i can borrow, yes or no"

- agreed.

"george bush is the second coming of hitler, yes or no"

- agreed.


I'm finding it difficult to see where "agreed" is a viable answer to a yes or no question...now, agreed and an EXPLANATION maybe, but just "agreed?"...no. i see somebody was reading the autobiography of malcolm X during english class.

imo, it provides a sense of foundation and self-esteem,
which is key to building our communities (regardless of any
roadblocks placed in our paths). We have never been able to
get this knowledge of self from the US education system,
we NEVER will. It wasnt designed for that purpose.

But we also DESPERATELY need knowledge of the innerworkings
of the system we live in. Not just the surface level mechanics,
but how this system effects every aspect of our lives.

I agree with you 100%

>how do you feel about this situation.

I define self as EGO and here are some interesting quotes I've found:

"A false sense of separateness created by living within delusion."

"... limited sense of 'I' that is identified with the body, mind, and senses; sometimes described as 'the veil of suffering.'"

"The mistaken notion of "I", a separate self, from which all confusion and suffering arises."

"(Latin) The personal pronoun "I"; in philosophy and theosophy, the ego is the center of 'I-am-ship' or egoity in the human being. There are two such centers: the spiritual and impersonal, commonly called the individuality; and the personal, often called the soul or the personality. The former ego is unconditionally immortal, the latter ego is conditionally immortal, but in most cases mortal because of its lack of binding aspirations with its higher Over-self, the individuality."

All from http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=define:+ego&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

More later...

plutonic thought way of I think therefore I am but in the African centered way of I am because we are. Thus meaning that knowledge of self is knowledge of who you are which is a result and representation of family community culture etc.

>plutonic thought way of I think therefore I am but in the
>African centered way of I am because we are. Thus meaning that
>knowledge of self is knowledge of who you are which is a
>result and representation of family community culture etc.

Understood...basically the opposite of ego is love. Who we are has to do with the love we have for ourselves and our loved ones. A strong sense of self love is what keeps me in service (community) and what connects me to my immediate family.

but then again, i have no soul.

"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

why do you disagree?

Degree from Harvard or Harvard Law you can be a bum in the streets much easier than if you have a sense of self and self purpose and have NO degree.


"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

..if you don't know yourself you don't know nobody.

If you don't know the system, how can you change it?

NO man is complete without the love of knowledge." (c) Gamma Phi Eta.



"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

people tell you what they want you to know for specific reasons. The Educational system in Amerikkka is failing not only African people in AMERIKKKA BUT AMERIKKKANS as a whole. The Amerikkkan education can't compete with the many nations in the world.

The reason why I posted this is because people have major misconceptions about what the meaning of education is. Education or knowledge is for survival of a given group of people and to progress the given society. Africans in Amerikkka are being pimped by the education system which is basically a GIANT HUMAN FILTER.

Notice who fill up the low wage jobs and who the managers are even in areas that are majority white. It is just magic that 40% of Africans in Amerikkka live in poverty and are stuck in dead in low wage jobs. We are being educated into a subordinated consumer class of people.

It filters out many people usually black and poor while a few make it to the Amerikkkan white middle class dream of a midsize house car 2.3 children in the suburbs with a average paying job. They have a nice job but who does it benefit to work for a fortune 500 company are you training to be A CEO AND OPEN SOME DOORS OR JUST A HELPER?

Education determines everything and in Amerikkka and Blacks especially boys are targeted. How can we allow our children to be taught by the same people that run the prisons television shows McDonalds and all the other shit we see. These same people who drug up our children and place them in learning disabled classes at disproportionate rates.

Schools are big business with companies like pepsi calling the shots the same companies that have their hand in the prison industry. Your kid was drinking pepsi products graduated to the state pen where they make pepsi products how IRONIC.

Woman especially African American women are doing well in this current system but then some of us get so caught up in the bullshit that we have a piece of paper or title(degree) so now we can't relate to each other all of a sudden a perfect example of miseducation/ buying into the Amerikkkan dream.

I believe in education to uplift a people but many people are educated fools.

KNOWLEDGE OF SELF.

...as knowledge of self. When we are born we put our first attention on the external world, i.e. folks who are in authority. During our formative, years we start the socialization process and this includes preparation for school. Therefore, our emotional, mental and spiritual awareness is developed BEFORE we enter school and this often changes once we enter school.

For example, my parents, being the hippies they were, encouraged me to be a free spirit. This includes my awareness of nature and creativity. I knew how to read and write to some degree before I entered school. One of the first things I had to experience in school was reward and punishment. I was rewarded for being able to follow the rules and punished when I broke them. I learned that specific accomplishments garnered rewards and I did more of that. Before long I became less creative, less imaginative and less sure of myself. My knowledge became more dependent on the external but I was not being my authentic self.

One of the things that saved me was my love of art. Both these activities helped me to learn outside of the box and be more aware of my thoughts, feelings, surroundings. Notice that the first thing that gets cut in schools is art. There is a reason for this:

"Although today the word art usually refers to the visual arts, the concept of what art is has continuously changed over centuries. Perhaps the most concise definition is its broadest—art refers to all creative human endeavors, excluding actions directly related to survival and reproduction. From a wide perspective, art is simply a generic term for any product of the creative impulse, out of which sprang all other human pursuits — such as science via alchemy, and religion via shamanism." - from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art

In school our instruction is carefully programmed to reward, punish and place less value on creativity. However, for Black folks this is all we have (creativity), so we make beats in the classroom and cafeteria. We created hip-hop as a response to what was happening in our external environment. The only problem is we are often limited in how we create, our awareness of the larger picture is missing.

Schools also place less value on our culture and history, etc. In children, especially children with fewer resources, this is damaging to awareness of self. In Black children, this can be disastrous because often we are not taught how to deal with adversity, how to be creative with our responses to racism, sexism, etc. They are become less able to express what they are experiencing because there are no outlets. They become less able to gain skills that will enable them to compete...more able to maintain the status quo.

When knowledge is only about ego and not the creative impulses that develop a higher level of skills, we will always be the victim of the system.

and various types of genius musical artistic etc. but since we are talking about knowledge of ourselves we understand that art, music etc. are a vital part of knowledge right?

>and various types of genius musical artistic etc. but since
>we are talking about knowledge of ourselves we understand that
>art, music etc. are a vital part of knowledge right?

Yep. Emotions, sensation, sexuality, reproduction, and creativity...these are all related to connecting to our innermost selves and others. The more we are able to connect with this the stronger is the sense of self-worth and self-love. We become healthier psychologically, more resilient and able to deal with adversity.

and i know you got your high school diploma so...

??????

thank u.

i mean, over and over again....But hey, i guess that's the price you pay to be an internet revolutionary

the fact that all of Taharka's forums are poorly-masked racist, separatist rants.

on this board

with guilt complexes and vast imaginations.

Perhaps you would like to come over for dinner.

Get real. You blatantly think this racism is your black privilege.

I didn't create these definitions and I know that their origins and stereotypes are rooted in european guilt/ hypocrisy/ greed etc. etc.

_____________________________
BREAKBEAT PRODUCTIONS PRESENTS: MARLEY RIDDIM E.P

COMING SOON....

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/breakbeatproductions.htm

Africans/Blacks are always under attack from external and internal forces.

and how stupid many Amerikkkans are.

to navigate through their bullshit, without it you get caught up in their bullshit.

******************************
http://myspace.com/jahi
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

this again seems like racially loaded bollocks to me.

Imagine for a second that there are no different ethicities in the world. How then would you define the 'self'?

>this again seems like racially loaded bollocks to me.

So. Why should care about what you think seems racist?

>Imagine for a second that there are no different ethicities in the
>world. How then would you define the 'self'?

The definition wouldn't change, also knowledge of self runs much deeper than ethnicity, but it definitely informs identity.

btw, proposing the impossible is pointless.


******************************
http://myspace.com/jahi
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

>So. Why should care about what you think seems racist?

But this could have been an interesting forum on the self. I gave Taharka the benefit of the doubt to begin with, but it turned out that this was just a re-worded 'fighting each other we lose sight of the enemy' forum.

At second reading your first comment (re navigating bullshit) has some real merit, but the consistent racial subtext is unfortunate because I think it can cloud your intellectual clarity.

>>Imagine for a second that there are no different ethicities
>in the
>>world. How then would you define the 'self'?
>
>The definition wouldn't change, also knowledge of self runs
>much deeper than ethnicity, but it definitely informs
>identity.
>
>btw, proposing the impossible is pointless.
>

Not quite.. that's the power of the imagination; you were able to visualise that scenario and allow it to inform your response.

>So. Why should care about what you think seems racist?

>At second reading your first comment (re navigating bullshit) has
>some real merit, but the consistent racial subtext is unfortunate
>because I think it can cloud your intellectual clarity.

"Navigating bullshit" doesn't have to be racial, but when talking about "formal education" it is definitely racial. Talking about "self" is inherently spiritual and whether people like talking about it or not, our spirit body is housed in a physical body that people have attached value to, based on skin. I don't see why people try to steer around it.


>btw, proposing the impossible is pointless.
>

>Not quite.. that's the power of the imagination; you were able to
> visualise that scenario and allow it to inform your response.

Even if I could create a "perfect world", there would not be one ethnicity. To have a fairytale that isn't even desirable inform my response seems pointless "to me" And even if I did let it inform my response it remains the same.

******************************
http://myspace.com/jahi
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

>"Navigating bullshit" doesn't have to be racial, but when
>talking about "formal education" it is definitely racial.

Which is why I liked your comment at second reading. All individuals, irrespective of ethnicity or label could use this as a maxim.

>Talking about "self" is inherently spiritual and whether
>people like talking about it or not, our spirit body is housed
>in a physical body that people have attached value to, based
>on skin. I don't see why people try to steer around it.
>

I fully appreciate this. However, Taharka (his ears must be burning!) launched straight into the racial without attempting/wanting to consider any other element of the 'self'. I'm not scared to talk about ethnicity, I just think that at times it re-invents the wheel.

>Even if I could create a "perfect world", there would not be
>one ethnicity. To have a fairytale that isn't even desirable
>inform my response seems pointless "to me" And even if I did
>let it inform my response it remains the same.

I wasn't proposing that the world could or should be ethnically homogeneous. I simply asked you to imagine the scenario in order to stimulate areas of discussion removed from ethnicity. You did, and responded that it wouldn't make a difference to the self. To me that made it worthwhile.

thank you for tellin him we cant escape race becuz we are black in amerikkka. when a white person that says something like that,he proves he has no idea of the plight of the black/non-white person in this country. and if he is a black person, well then, that was mighty white of him.

I can't understand it. Were you criticising me then?

dealing with complicated issues.

why is that?

The truth is that we are not the same, and we are not all treated as equals. So how does one address this? IMO you gotta work on fixing the problem, but in the meantime u gotta seperate urself from the bullshit or it will drag u down.

Once the shit is fixed, and we can all approach the table as equals then we can talk about that other shit...


"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

>The truth is that we are not the same, and we are not all
>treated as equals. So how does one address this? IMO you
>gotta work on fixing the problem, but in the meantime u gotta
>seperate urself from the bullshit or it will drag u down.
>
>Once the shit is fixed, and we can all approach the table as
>equals then we can talk about that other shit...

In one breath you accept that we are not all equal. I agree that nobody is equal - not in a group sense - but in an individual sense. In this respect, whether or not we agree with the ethics of it, individuals will always be treated inequally.

The paradox is this; it is beautiful that everybody is different but it is ugly that people are as an inevitable result treated differently.

Is it not then naively idealistic to state in the other breath that we could one day approach the table as 'equals'?

From: http://www.valuescenter.com/www/values/3.htm

"The seven stages in the development of human consciousness also apply to the development of group consciousness; where “group” is defined as a collection of individuals that share a common heritage or purpose. The characteristics of the consciousness of an individual are expressed through the individual’s personality. The characteristics of the consciousness of a group are expressed through the group’s culture. 

Included within the term group are all forms of organizations, such as corporations, government institutions and non-governmental organizations (NGOs), and all forms of social units, such as clans, tribes, communities, nations and humanity as a whole. Group cultures grow and develop in the same way as individual personalities – by successfully mastering the beliefs associated with each of the seven life needs. The most successful groups are those that develop full-spectrum consciousness. They are able to respond appropriately to all of life’s challenges. The seven stages in the development of group consciousness are shown below."

The article goes on to list the 7 stages (click on the link above to see them). What I found interesting was what comes after that, i.e. the description that describes the competencies and mastery of these stages. For example:

"Groups learn to master stage 1 by developing skills and abilities to ensure the physical and financial survival of the group. Groups learn to master stage 2 by developing skills and abilities to create harmonious internal relationships that give group members a sense of belonging. Groups learn to master stage 3 by developing the rules, structures and order that allow the group to perform effectively on their own or in competition with other groups."

The problem is not solely with the individual because the "characteristics of the consciousness of a group are expressed through the group’s culture". We, as individuals are very much connected to our groups. IMHO, as a group, Black folks are aware of inequality through our inability (in some instances) to get from one stage to another...because of adversity. We know the playing field is not level and some of us meet the challenge by getting educated & climbing and others quit. Most folks get to some level and camp out without reaching the higher stages. It's as if they all know there is a ceiling or limit to how far they can climb.

In other words, as above, so below.

"From a psychological perspective, the first three stages in the development of group consciousness represent stages in the development of the group ego, and the last three stages represent stages in the development (or unfolding) of the group soul. Between the last stage in the development of the group ego and the first stage in the development of the group soul lies the fourth stage in the development of group consciousness (transformation). This is the stage where the group learns to align the needs of its ego with the needs of its soul.

The levels of consciousness that a group operates from, is a direct reflection of the levels of consciousness of the decision-making authority of the group."

>"The seven stages in the development of human consciousness
>also apply to the development of group consciousness; where
>“group” is defined as a collection of individuals that share a
>common heritage or purpose. The characteristics of the
>consciousness of an individual are expressed through the
>individual’s personality. The characteristics of the
>consciousness of a group are expressed through the group’s
>culture. 

I agree with this social psychology model. But you can use the model to identify the seemingly entrenched problem. I've written before that egocentricity to the individual is ethnocentrism to the group. Doesn't the problem arise at cohesion level? Individuals and groups identify and sustain themselves as much by their perceived similarites but also by the perceived differences of others. Colour is a highly salient difference..

...when I read the article.

"Groups work best when all members of the group, or all sub-groups, share a common vision of the future and operate on the basis of a shared set of beliefs. In other words, group cultures are more cohesive when there is cultural fit. In such situations, members of the group are able to operate with responsible freedom and decision-making authority can be pushed to the periphery. When beliefs are not shared internal factions develop. This can threaten the survival of the group entity. The decision-making authority must decide in this case how to deal with these differences."

>Doesn't the problem arise at
>cohesion level? Individuals and groups identify and sustain
>themselves as much by their perceived similarites but also by
>the perceived differences of others. Colour is a highly
>salient difference.

I see lots of Black folks at the transformation level where they are adapting or learning to adapt to the external environment and meet their needs. This is usually where folks start to camp out. They don't take it to the next level or stage.

It is possible.

Different does not mean inequity. If I want my water in a cube shaped tumbler and u want it in a oval shaped tumbler I can still pour each of 8 fluid oz of water.




"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

>It is possible.
>
>Different does not mean inequity. If I want my water in a
>cube shaped tumbler and u want it in a oval shaped tumbler I
>can still pour each of 8 fluid oz of water.

but doesn't it fail when you give the tumbler a 'self'?

"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

What happens when the cube shaped tumbler starts identifying with other cube shape tumblers at the cost of the oval-shaped tumbler?

Different.

You can't say a cube shaped tumbler is worthless because it doesn't match your set ovalware and then either marginalize it to use for the children or throw it out when it might have been made from cyrtal comparable in worth to the oval tumbler.

If that's the case, someone without the ovalware bias has to step in and say hey- don't be mad at the cubed tumbler for being cube shaped. You are misusing these items. Recognize them for their true worth instead of being mad that they aint oval.


"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

>You can't say a cube shaped tumbler is worthless because it
>doesn't match your set ovalware and then either marginalize it
>to use for the children or throw it out when it might have
>been made from cyrtal comparable in worth to the oval
>tumbler.
>
>If that's the case, someone without the ovalware bias has to
>step in and say hey- don't be mad at the cubed tumbler for
>being cube shaped. You are misusing these items. Recognize
>them for their true worth instead of being mad that they aint
>oval.
>

I was personifying the tumblers. For example the cube shaped tumbler is a white man and the oval shaped tumbler is a black man. In keeping with this, who is the 'you' who 'can't say' in your above example?

Some differences are rational and some are emotional. Of course you can say that cube shaped tumbler has the same capacity as the oval shaped tumbler, irrespective of their shape, but you cannot say that one individual white man has the same capacity as one individual black man because its not true. Just like you cannot say that one individual white man has the same capacity as another individual white man. We are not only different, but we all have different capacities. Or at least that is the way that individuals PERCEIVE things wehen they seek an ingroup.

The difference in colour is an emotional difference. In a perfect world it should not inform ingroup association, but it does and I can understand why. Look at things empirically. Name one mixed ethnic group that genuinely gets on in the world. This is why I think the key is in education; not to teach all ethnicites that they are different as proposed by this forum, but to teach that in the final analysis, in terms of colour, that is not a legitimate signifier of difference.

yes.

yay.

aye.

hai.

kos is the foundation of all knowledge and the wealth spring from which true knowledge comes.

to know something is not to have it pushed into your head. you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it think. no one can learn for you. you need knowledge of self to even begin to be able to use the information that you recieve.

knowledge of self is your operating system...

i guess in that sense the question is missleading. it's kind of like saying the best education is having a head. rather i would say that you are not trully educated untill you have knowledge of self...

call it enlightenment. the god waking up to knowhimself. seeing all of creation and figuring out your place in it. unified theory. a mathematic equation that makes the universe fall into place.

ok!

you need it. BUt if you don't know how to interact with the world.

p-oz

(okp formerly known as why_did_I_think_it_would_be_cool_to_change_my_login_name_only_to_keep_the_old_one_in_my_sig_forever)

•••••••• •••••••• ••••••••

Great cheap webhosting:
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puppet to a person that can make their own decisions.

most definately. I think knowledge of self is probably the key step to happiness and success in any sense or field of work. Though at the same time, its not something that can be easily taught or anything, its something for you to work out alone.

There is nothing good in the 'self' imo.

!!!!!1