I say this, because we always have some white cat telling us what our reality is, usually trying to tell us our real issue is class not race.

I guess all of the Black folks writing books in this country since the 19th century to the present are just little kids with inferior reasoning ability. The volumes upon volumes of literature that has been produced by us, that addresses our reality and even deals with subjects such as Marxism/Socialism, capitalism, democracy etc has been ignored.

Then there are volumes upon volumes of literature from the carribean, the continent, and other places that have theorized and formulated specific ideas and paradigms that address micro and macro problems. But these theorist are not worthy to be considered, because they did not consult with the "real thinkers" that know our problems better than we know them ourselves, not even bothering to read some of the most basic text.

These same stooges, can't even address their inability to mobilize there own people to overthrow the minority exploiting regime ruining the world, yet they seek to be the experts on the African condition... Pure Arrogance! Dig into your own history and show me a time when the masses of europeans were living peacfully under any system.

"Discounts invalid theories which state that the evolution of economic systems has necessitated or produced this states of affairs. Instead, he turns such theories upside-down by suggesting that various economic systems such as captialist, communism, and socialism, have been devised, used, and refined in the effort to achieve the primal goal of White domination. In other words, the goal of the system of White supremacy is not for anything other than the establishment, maintenance, expansion, and refinement of world domination by members of the group which classifies itself as the White race."



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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

No message

No message

..so is your problem with the education system that sweeps all that under the carpet?, or are you asking people to do some theoretical work?

>..so is your problem with the education system that sweeps all that
> under the carpet?, or are you asking people to do some theoretical
>work?

I'm saying that people will apply "universal" theories to Black people's problems, or will say what they have observed about "black revolutionaries" and how they are going about "revolution" the wrong way, and will show nothing but ignorance to the ideas and theories of the people most intimately involved. Like we can't assess our own problems; other people can assess them if they wish... but atleast have some knowledge of what we have written about them.


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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

..but despite critcisms or postulations from white figures of authority would black literature or social theories still not hold water for the black audience they were intended? or does the white, liberal establishment hold more sway over the educated people of your community?

Its been my experience that most of my people unconciously
think that the only valid thinkers, theorists, etc are white.

Or, they just dont know of any at all.

...which is essentially the foundation for the society we live in today. Any lines of thought which do not fit into the narrow ciriculum put forward by the education establishment is immediately discarded. This is itself a class issue, since the middle classes dominate education and will, if given the chance, intellectualize anything, to make it fit into their already narrow understanding of the world in an attempt. there's more complexities with your own situation, which i don't have the knowledge to comment on, i'm just looking at it from the point of view of society.

There are foundations in which all knowledge is built upon. To challenge the epistemology in any field, no matter who you are, you are going against a system who's existence is built on White supremacist imperial ideas and conceptions, or simply automatic assumptions of western culture. To challenge this you may be up against centuries of lies, the issue isn't simply class. The issues are people divided by who their rulers are and what kind of education they force on them to keep them in the same position. A billionaire cannot write a book making claims that run contrary to what is written in the "Great Books" and not expect it to get shot down. It's suppression coming from a much higher order that permeates society from top to bottom.

Edward Shils wrote specifically about this, regarding the structure of the university and the role of the "scholar" especially scholars of color, how they are are dealt with in the maintenance of a society. I believe the exact title is called "Color, the universal intellectual community, and the Afro-Asian Intellectual" http://www.neiu.edu/~circill/Thompson10.pdf

This article is built upon his previous article of how a society should be run from a sociological perspective "Centre and Periphery
http://www.neiu.edu/~circill/Thompson11.pdf



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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

>..but despite critcisms or postulations from white figures of
>authority would black literature or social theories still not hold
>water for the black audience they were intended? or does the white,
>liberal establishment hold more sway over the educated people of
>your community?

Actually, I believe the ideas brought about by Black theorist, especially Pan-African, Afrocentric, Nationalist etc has caught alot more wind in the Black community. Grassroot organizing usually come from these ideas, the problem is they run against the university where they get very little play, in fact i think Bernal or Lefkotwitz called it a Ghettoized intellectual community. We exist in the university setting but we are so marginalized that most students have to go outside of a university and to a Black Bookstore or a few rare items at Borders. Even most Af american studies programs only treat them superficially if at all.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

..to me that raises more questions about the political direction of the white working classes and/or underclasses. What i mean is if your living in a society that is essentially hostile to your community unless you conform to it's rules and regulations what chance would you have of challenging or even breaking the patterns of thinking that have already been institutionalised?. Surely if change would to be forthcoming in this situation (i.e. the constraints of higher education as it is presented today) then it would have to be white people who could actually take stock and comprehend there own situation instead of looking at everybody else with their hands in the air like they think they don't have fundamental problems, who should be looking long and hard at themselves and the societies they build. The problem with this convincing people that this is a worthwhile thing to take to task, since as has been stated elsewhere, what would they have to gain when society is already balanced in their favour?

That's the thing, society isn't balanced in their favor, they're on the bottom, their psychology just makes them believe they are better than other people, who could actually be doing better than them! Another issues of concern that is not just specific to them, but if you don't like your position in the society you're more willing to work for a different position in it than making a society that is better.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

..that in itself is probably as good an indictment of the values society holds dear. more often than not you'll find some of the most successful people have come from disadvantaged backgrounds, thats what gives them the drive to do what they want to do, but to the detriment of their communities. i guess this has had an effect on other groups to a lesser or greater extent, but basically it's the flip side of the American dream and the lack of a politicised working class. god bless ronny reagan eh?

I feel, eat, sleep, work, live as person of colour. Yet, I do believe that class is the issue. I'm sorry if you feel oppressed by that.

"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

It is both, but despite what race you are, if you don't own any private property you have to sell your labour and work. Class cuts across all races. I don't believe the interest of everyone within a racial category is the same, but across class we share the same interests. Believe me, there is a black middle and capitalist class (and they have been around over a hundred years) that have allied against black working class people to further their accumulation of capital.

>"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It
>was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It
>felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting
>me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could."
>Response-ability

race is an issue but class has been the issue since the euro's came here with the afro's. the class issue cuts across race, there are more poor white in america than there are any black people. also, many people dont know there were rich black people during times of slavery.

>race is an issue but class has been the issue since the euro's came
> here with the afro's.

Race is the reason we were brought here. The class issues that we face today has not always been the same, in fact during the 18th century many members of the "privi" class were the most revolutionary. Martin Delaney was born free, had an M.D. and he despised slavery as much as anyone enslaved and was willing to die for the cause. David Walker who was educated, free, and owned land and his own business died for the cause. The names can go on and on, the class issue was face today are apart of our conditioning which i think is sloppily treated by simple labor/class theories.

>the class issue cuts across race, there are more poor white in
>america than there are any black people.

This only speaks to the treachery of the elite class at the expense of the masses.

>also, many people dont know there were rich black people during
> times of slavery.

There were not "many", yes there were blacks that owned slaves, especially in Louisiana but to say many is a stretch. But Blacks have been implicit in our own destruction since you can point to a beginning so this is actually common sense, but I would say the Black slaver had alot more than class issues.

******************************
http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

.
******************************
http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

or feel the need to apologize. You've stated before you were a "person of color" and while this may not have been specifically aimed at you, it's applicable. And no I dont feel oppressed.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

He's a black Marxists that identifies with black and class issues from a marxist perspective. What ill do you find in him might I ask?

But I would definitely say he has modified Marxist perspective from what I read from his foreward to "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson (which is a great book which challenges Marxist thought as applied to African liberation). But I can't say I know him well, but what he has said has been respectable, nor did I say Marxism/Socialism is without any value.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

and universities in the UK take great notice of his work

University = White establishment, chains will never buy that one.

>and universities in the UK take great notice of his work

>University = White establishment, chains will never buy that one.

This smells like sarcasm, but considering I am within the "white establishment" and most of the theorist I am talking about have written from within the white establishment, makes me wonder what assumptions you're making about me. I really don't care, but you might want to ask yourself why so many Black marxist/socialist jump ship in waves, after the 30's and after the 70's and reformed their positions on social change. As far as stuart hall, his name has come up quite a few times and I will definitely be checking him out, but I will admit if the "enemy" praises/accepts you then it's only natural for me to be skeptical, but I'll atleast read him.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

If the enemy accepts you! Are you talking about me?

This smells like racism!!

Check out Bell Hooks' essay entitled Postmodern Blackness.

I barely look at individuals, I'm more concerned with the systems/institutions that individuals plug into, to be racist. If a racist institution openly embraces someone, then it doesn't see the person as a threat.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

I say tomato. An analysis of institutions is inexricably bound to the 'individuals' that populate them. Think post-structuralist theory (yeah, I said it Pinko, YOU WANT SOME?! lol). There are black writers in this area of thought too.


>I barely look at individuals, I'm more concerned with the
>systems/institutions that individuals plug into, to be racist.
>If a racist institution openly embraces someone, then it
>doesn't see the person as a threat.
>

The purpose of this post is to point out something I see as a problem. European hegemony is a problem whether from the left or the right, no matter the color of the person spewing the rhetoric. Also to hip people to the fact that there has not been an absence of ideas in black community.

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http://myspace.com/jahi
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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

lol.

i kid.

they would be mad he is talkin or writing and not acting. so many negroes have been swayed to think action is when people hold up signs outside an office building. a lot of us have such immature thought processes.

"I liked it," Gilliam said of playing gunner on punt team. "It was the first time I did anything like that. It was fun. It felt like, if he wasn't fair catching it, he was disrespecting me, so I was trying to take a head off if I could." Response-ability

but a new generation is coming up so in time we will have some.

I'm not being sarcastic. I really am interested to know.

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