By that I mean, is it a essential element of the growth process of a people, a person?

Is it possible to move forward as a disenfranchised group without first having group pride- a cockiness even before moving past that phase and being able to work with others as an equal?

what ya'll think?


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DUNNT

I think nationalistic feelings are part of human nature. They can be beneficial to a people, or a hindrance, depending on the circumstance and what these engergies are put toward.

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DUNNT

j/k

Are we talking about the financial/social success of a group, or of individuals within that group? Or, are we talking about nationalism as a socio-psycological necessity to bring about mentally healthy individuals?


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DUNNT

If we look at how any group in America has achieved success, it has been though nationalistic priciples. I don't want to speak niversally, but it seems that in the U.S., the answer it's very desireable, if not necessary.

As to the mental health of individuals, that's a harder question. I would probably say it's not necessary. Strong ties to ones racial/ethnic/national/religious group is one way to construct a positive identity of oneself, but not the only way. We may not look at a Black person who doesn't identify himslef with other black people as not mentally healthy, but as long as that particular person has a health self-esteem, etc., they they're mentally healthy.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

I once read of a social psychology experiment (and I can't remember where which is seriously annoying) which established that children as young as seven expressed strong sentiments of nationalism, without - of course - having a clue what the word meant.

«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

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DUNNT

«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

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DUNNT

i kid... i'll revisit this later tonight

«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

or was it the death of panarabism ?

wasn't clear.


hmmm

i need to think about this a little more.
______________________________

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its funny how that's been demonized tho... ppl here say ba'athist as if its the same as saying nazis. i've actually heard ppl say the ba'ath are the arab equivalent of nazis.

what's interesting is that the ba'ath party disintegrated b/c of the same reasons that the pan-african movement did. i wouldn't be suprised if saddam hussein hijacked the ba'ath platform in Iraq under the direction of the CIA.

there have been many a stooge leader with the same MO.

>its funny how that's been demonized tho... ppl here say
>ba'athist as if its the same as saying nazis. i've actually
>heard ppl say the ba'ath are the arab equivalent of nazis.

i'd say more like the equivalent of the commies.

good (in theory) idea hijacked by a dictator.

>what's interesting is that the ba'ath party disintegrated b/c
>of the same reasons that the pan-african movement did. i
>wouldn't be suprised if saddam hussein hijacked the ba'ath
>platform in Iraq under the direction of the CIA.

hmmm.. possible.
Or may be he was playing those cards for his own self.

>there have been many a stooge leader with the same MO.

yup.

But the article was saying panarabism died 3 times:
-Koweit invasion (before that the Koweitians were very panarabists in theory)
-Irak for obvious reasons.
-Lebannon (Syria used and uses panarabism as an excuse)

actually, it was too short to be interesting.

______________________________

*TWINNING*

so how could those respective situations be a blow to the panarab movement? the brits separated them to prevent the people in Iraq and Syria from having coastal access (thus increasing their economic potential)

i'm sure there are other reasons as well, but as i understood, this was the dominant one...


«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

while i don't know much about Kuwait...

Is the fact that Lebannon WAS part of Syria enough to justify an invasion of Lebannon by Syria NOW ?

Apparently Lebanese (sp?) folks have their own national identity now...
their own culture and all that.

And the article was saying that Lebannon used to be a very panarabist country... well at least the intellectuals were.

probably a case of an ideology loosing its appeal because some mofos (Syrian governement) used that ideology to justify other actions.

______________________________

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the thing was, the Brits separated Lebanon by having it populated primarily w/ christians, so the concensus in Lebanon was anti-Syrian back in the days... but over time, the muslim demographic grew in population much faster than the christian one, and now the muslims constitute the majority of people in Lebanon. many muslims view their association w/ Syria as a benefit due to the constant threat of Israeli invasion. Israel threatens Lebanon about using their own water supply, Israel constantly flies sorties into Lebanese air space, etc... and has a keen interest in seeing a relatively less formidable military opponent in that state

http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=5160


«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

the shia'as are the majority now.

you're either anti-israel (Shia) OR anti-syria (former christian Phalangists) ?


Is it impossible that people in Lebannon in 2005 actually want Syria to LEAVE without being pro-israeli ?

What about those rumours about Hezzbollah joinning the anti-syrian camp ?

(i said "rumours")


______________________________

*TWINNING*

...of Iran/Syria/Lebanon. Iran and Syria are cooperating out of necessity. most ppl that i've met hate the Syrian gov't... but under the current circumstances, they are forced to push for what's in their best short-term interests. socially and culturally, the majority of Lebanese ppl don't distinguish themselves from the people of Syria... even if they have beef w/ the gov't... so ur previous point about language, culture blah blah is moot. the sunnis complain, the christians complain, but bulk of shia'as, who constitute the majority, are okay w/ it.

although they do constitute a large plurality.

------
"Ladies and gentlemen, what you are seeing is a total disregard for the
things St. Patrick's Day stand for. All this drinking, violence,destruction
of property. Are these the things we think of when we think of the Irish?"

- Kent O'Brockman

how you gonna provide safety and security for yourt friends if you can't control the LAND under you?

Palestinian nationalism would be a good start.... sure it's anti-democratic, but if you don't offer democracy to victims of racism, affirmative action-style, you're looking at causing terrorism. which is bad for everybody, including terrorists, cuz they die!!!



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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

but i believe it's important to talk about nationalism in the other senses.

speaking of senses, would somebody pass me a bowl of some gooood shit through the computer screen? just exhale thru the monitor, i'll inhale on the other side.

exhale into my text.

(inhales)

ahhhh stank you, stank you very much. that's some good weed.

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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

Why can't we develop our class solidarity in rejection of nationalism and racism? I'm not saying we are there right now, but we could easily build it if we worked for it.

if groups are civil enough then they can be nationalistic and democratic at the same time, ideally. But then again democracy is an ideal, the practice becomes questionable.

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______________________________

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no, with the exclusion of a portion of the population, no matter how democratic whites were amongst themselves they were, as a nation, undemocratic. Just like the state of Israel puports to be a democracy, yet tax dollars are expended on supression of others, "jews only" laws, military occupation, settlements, etc...

______________________________

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so you can use it to get out of your own way.

nationalism is a complicated question.... in my opinion, black peole do in fact own the land, THiS land, and Black Revolution and nationalism means staying in one's power until the illusion 9this physical place called america) rflects the reality (the eternal 40 acres and a mule actualized not as spikes film company, but as OWNERSHIP.

masculine energy... everyone 7 everything has it... you wouldnt be in form unless you had it. it bring the formless (feminine energy) into form (one's reality)
it has nothing to do with males. men dont have more masculine energy than women. more testosterone, maybe, but htat's not masculine energy. it has masculine energy in it, but it's not masculine energy in that singula sense.

Black men have been emasculated....

Excess of feminine energy, to be tooook weak is what evil is.


like Bill Clinton bordered on being evil (I dont think he crossed the line) when he allowed people to talk for two years about him & Monica Lewinsky.

I would have said, can't we talk about racism? or about Reparations, or aout Jazz, or that matter, instead of talking baout one man and one woman? I'm supposed to be the LEAST powerful person, in that sensing, becasue the JANITOR at the white house, the guy who cleans my toilet, is my boss. you want to make it be about me?

he needed to have more cockiness , he needed to be more of a warrior. In a racist country, to NOT be cocky in the face of racism is criminal.

not punishable (grin) , but criminal....

I would suggest though, people, that if you engage the energy of racism toooo much, ie , make your life be about preventing a race war, you in the end, become part of the problem, because your life depends on that there being a race war to have meaning.

Ironic, but excess of anything is POISON...

peace my nubian brothers and sisters, PEACE

(sampled from the heart, also heard on a Brand Nubian song. )


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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

>nationalism is a complicated question.... in my opinion, black
>peole do in fact own the land, THiS land, and Black Revolution
>and nationalism means staying in one's power until the
>illusion 9this physical place called america) rflects the
>reality (the eternal 40 acres and a mule actualized not as
>spikes film company, but as OWNERSHIP.

this land doesn't belong to us. it belongs to the native americans.

they're the only true "americans".



~~~~
~fear is the mind-killer~

"...jesus had a wife. and she was his
messiah like that stranger may be
yours. who holds the subtle knife that
carves through worlds like magic
doors." ~saul wms

uh 1-2 uh 1-2?

And most Native Americans prefer to be called "Indians", in that sensing.

When I say Black, I mean dark-skinned. Indians, Native Americnas, etc.

The land belongs to the OWNERS of the land. Who's gonna take the weight and claim it... Black people talking about they own "America" is fucking great!!! And appropriate!!! However you define "Blackness" .

uh1-2 is (c) Biz Markie, courtesy of his blaessed/damn self.


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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

STUPID AMERICANS!!!!!

"Laugh from Michael Jackson's "THRILLER by Vincent price can now be heard in your mind. Just pretend you can hear it. If it doesnt work, pretend you can pretend. You can pretend.

And then all you have to do is say "NO" or "Stop!!!"

Cheers, CHILLLL

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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

Nationalism- the belief that a group of people with shared charatceristics are enttled to control of their own territory.
In that case it can be liberating for some people, but be disatrous for developing democracies and stability within countries with ethnic divisions.

What group does not practice nationalism in terms of politics, economics etc? The melting pot is a myth, if you want to call it a plural society or nations within nations... there's no real integration, sure it can be seen socially to some extent, I'm sure the nations can be broken down to families but a major problem is with Black folks here we have been trying to cling to the nationalism of others and end up getting used.

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"If I see

>What group does not practice nationalism in terms of
>politics, economics etc?

us


------------------------------

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"If I see

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DUNNT

wag the dog. seriously. if someone printed up a false news story to push all the racist's buttons in england about how Black people are declaring that they are owed British people's land, if they stayed in their power, they would get it.

Didnt the Zionists read and write tracts on Land-snatching? Didnt the Germans write that book or read it, too?

didn't the white man when he took over INDIA and INDONESIA and HUGE masses of Land and kill masses of dark-skinned people on this continent?

I say to Black Revolutionaries... "go for it in England. Why do you want to go up against a Brick Wall here?"

Besides, size aint shit, in the immortal and ironic words of Bushwick Bill. However, size is important pragmatically. If you get England. You show that you could just as easily HAVE gotten Israel/Palestine, India, Indonesia, Native AMerica, Guatemala, you know, you coulod have done the same shuffle that the White Man is doing.

in the words of the immortal QUINCY JONES...

"WEE B. Dooinit".

I talked to Chuck D about this point... ironically, if one person fucks up against White Superiroity (or just spellchecking), it;'s okay, because they're not that important. Not at all...

Black Revolution with Harm to None:::: comin soon. just tell whitey we're mad because he's got everyone else's stuff, give it back or get out of the way while Black Revolution gets you all in Check, and then ?"WHOO_HA!

"EVERYTHING REMAINS REAL".

Here is something you can't understand.. how I could just KILL Snow White, the fictional character. The only person that NEEDED to die. HAD to have died. I killed her today..

"IIIIIII JUST WANT TO CELEBRATE"
(cranking "REAL NIGGAZ DON"T DIE" by NWA.

Call me a racist, Raspberry, but you can't say I support a system of racism. Cause ALL systems MUST be destroy'ded


aiiiight?????

Chilllll in that sensi. Just don't get caught...



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"you fuckers brought chrisdefendorf out of crakctavist. thanksafuckinlot"
-okp rjcc

*chrisdefendorf joins janus on s.i.'s list of 'okps to ignore'

he aint racist. He's far from that- from what I've seen. IMO.

cause judging by what ya'll posting, its like there's four different definitions.

i think this can make the discussion somewhat chaotic if we're not operating on the same understanding.

so g'head... shoot.

Civic?
Ethnic?
Cultural?

I'll give you one for $4, or all three for $10.

why for you no share??

«SiG»
“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice."
-Qur’an 4:135

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Chris Defendorf: "We're not done!" (sampling KRS-ONE & PUBLIC ENEMY "HIT THE ROAD JACKKK"

Chuck D: "I KNOW we're not done..."

PE REDUCER Hank Shocklee on the words defendorf uses: "inciteful" (C) HS

A shared sense of identity based on...whatever.

It's late. I'll be back in the morning.


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DUNNT

and not condelleza rice don't count for anything black.

how does the need manifest itself? where can you look and see it in action?

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DUNNT

and now you have a million black males in prison a population close to 15% of the population that represents close to 40% of the lower economic sector and close to 50% of the homeless.

Don't even get me started with the education system diseases and segregation which is said to be greater now than it was in the 60s.

>and now you have a million black males in prison a population
>close to 15% of the population that represents close to 40% of
>the lower economic sector and close to 50% of the homeless.
>
>Don't even get me started with the education system diseases
>and segregation which is said to be greater now than it was in
>the 60s.
>
Good point.

Ideological State Apparatuses (Althusser) define the national status quo..

Religions,
Education Systems (including the public/private distinction),
Family life,
Legal System,
Political System etc, etc,

Do these systems/institutions create, define and sustain the national identity thereby propounding the nationalist tendency?

Look then to the 'axis of evil'; the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan

In the blue corner you have the good; democratic states
In the red corner you have the bad; anti-democratic muslim states

I think its no coincidence that the 'war on terror' emerged in the post cold war epoch. The 'threat' to democracy/capitalism (which are married concepts within the western nation identity) no longer comes from communism, but from anti-democractic muslim polities.

Is it possible that in order for a cohesive nation identity to be sustained, there must at all times be a clear and present danger to this identity. By fighting the other, does it not remove focus from the scrutiny of the one's own identity?

Sustained by myth, undoubtedly, but forged into the mass conscience none the less. (I wonder what effect the appointment of Colin Powell to Secretary of State had upon the demographics of conscription in the States)

This certainly muddies the waters in terms of progress as a disenfranchised group. How do you challenge the nation identity without completely alienating oneself from it? No mean feat, I'm sure.

Like Houdini : How do you get free? (Lazaris paraphrase "A Spark of Light" ebook)



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Chris Defendorf: "We're not done!" (sampling KRS-ONE & PUBLIC ENEMY "HIT THE ROAD JACKKK"

Chuck D: "I KNOW we're not done..."

PE REDUCER Hank Shocklee on the words defendorf uses: "inciteful" (C) HS

I support the right of national self-determination for oppressed nations.

There is a limited role in which nationalism can be a revolutionary force, namely in struggling against imperialist domination.

Of course in imperialist nations, nationalism takes on a very ugly and reactionary appearance. It is concerned that the global totem pole is not re-carved, that the oppressed nations "stay in their place," and chuavanistically declares that its superiority not be challenged.

- Nationalism seems like Step 1 of liberation movements.
- Nationalism seems like step 1 of oppressive movements.


Turkey anyone ?



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DUNNT

democarcy ? justice ?

i dunno..
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"Nationalism" seems to me like something that goes beyond simple group pride.



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*TWINNING*

But it is based on pride, no?

I think that even babies are selfish- self centered for a portion of a time just so things make more sense. It's almost like a sense of perspective and a method for finding one's bearing before you move on to more complexed issues.

so I do think it can be simple in that sense.

or maybe I'm not making sense.

*breakfast time*

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DUNNT

Egocentricity is to the individual what ethnocentrism/nationalism is to the group.

post that perhaps you NEED some basic sense of nationalism as well.

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It varies from group to group, hence the distinctions between civic, ethnic and cultural nationalisms. Americans like to think that nationalism is something that happens to other countries, but they don't recognize that civic identification that forms a cornerstone of American citizenship in itself constitutes a form of nationalism.

What I'm seeing now though, with the rise of American conservatism fuel by the religious right, is the transformation of civic nationalism into something more explicitly cultural. Add to that the component of ethnic nationalism that has always existed in American political thought, and we may be seeing the birth of something profoundly ugly.

and one of the things he talks about is how because of blk people's lack of a sense of national unity vs. loyalty to several small states, they were easily infiltrated and conquered by outside groups.

so yes. nationalism--in the sense that malcolm and the panthers talked about it--is necessary

e.g.
keeping money in the community
building our own schools/institutions vs. copying others'
supplying jobs and resources for our communities

etc.

because we lost--or never had--those things, we see some of the devolution we have now.


~~~~
~fear is the mind-killer~

"...jesus had a wife. and she was his
messiah like that stranger may be
yours. who holds the subtle knife that
carves through worlds like magic
doors." ~saul wms

current boundaries? It prolly has to be a moral move.


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A crucial aspect of the development of any nationalism is the role of intellectuals. This role isn't limited by academic qualifications--anybody who could possibly articulate a particular vision for a would-be nation and inject it into popular consciousness will do.

Which boundaries, though? Social? Cultural? Geographic?

I don't think an intellectual theme even qualifies. Not to say that our people are stupid, but to say who has the time for nebulous reasoning when you got a child to feed and a mortgage to pay.

It seems to me that moral issues are more... immediate.


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nationalism scares me, particularly here in china. i work for a middle/high school, and every day the children must sing the national anthem. and then during lunch break, i notice several classes singing it during their leisure time. during today's lesson i was reminded of the loyalty these kids have to their nation. one spoke out "we must show the world how great the chinese people are!" during a presentation. now im all for china becoming successful, but i fear the future shall china become world superpower. people here, not just students, are all on the bandwagon. there is virutally no disent, and where there is, it is suppressed, jailed, blocked, filtered, etc. every day i feel less a part of my own country as i do the world community. einstein held great contempt for nationalism.

Pledge of allegiance, singing the anthem (among other songs), a daily revisionist teaching of US history framing the US as the great saviour of civilization. It has everything to do with capitalist competition on the global market. That goes for China and their mode of state capitalist production too.

where we are as black people...

vs where the chinese people are should come into focus. i would love to be a country of 2 billion black people chanting UP AFRICA! i doubt the chinese people will be subjugated by any other than their own to thier own detriment and even possible total genetic elimination any time soon.

black people need black nationalism. it's counter point to the system of global white supremacy which is in full effect. and don't think for a minute that it's not.

we're already diverse enough to sustain our personalities, but we also have a lot of work reclaiming our african heritage and risining up past 400 years of slavery and financial underdevelopment/outright attacks on afrika and her people. i would and feel quite good about submiting my will to the will of the most high. manifest in the mighty black god of africa.

rhetoric. rhetoric. rhetoric.

but good to have in the back of your mind when watching mtv or bet or vh1 or walking down the street or reading the news paper or watching the news or having a conversation around the office at the worksite etc. vertical and horizontal truth.

backbone.

up african nationalism!

ok

that nationalism has only existed for no more than 200-300 years. How have we existed and organized ourselves prior to this? I don't think it has any sort of essentiality to human existence whatsoever.

You mean to tell me the battle of Jericho wasn't Nationalism? That the Persians vs Alexander wasn't nationalism? There was pride involved there.

You can look at Sparta. nationalism fueled what they were about.

Same goes for many older civilizations.

I don't know that I agree.


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manifestation of Nationalism? i.e. the Nazis?
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Yes firebrand, there was definitely nationalism involved but this was a doctrine that was only fully embraced by elites. Most common people in most parts of the world had absolutely no clue as to what the leaders of these empires were fighting for. In France, for example, there were once hundreds of different little townships culturally fragmented and without any conscious realization of a "French" identity. They only identified locally with the customs and traditions of the people around them. That was an example, but the same was true for the persians, the arabs, the many various regions of Africa, the land today known as india, the indians of the americas, etc. Only when you look at history through the lens of elites will you find nationalism and only today is nationalism a sentiment that exists en masse throughout any single nation-state. In fact, when capitalism emerged and the capitalist states established themselves, one of the greatest difficulties in most "countries" was developing a unified feeling of nationhood among all people with a set of borders. How can we have a market for wine, for example, when there are 30 or 40 different types of distinct wine throughout he land? Well, you develop propaganda to narrow what is considered good wine so that a few rich distributers can sell within larger markets. In fact, the whole public school system idea developed as a means, in the majority of nation-states, to unify the language (as most languages differ from region to region), develop national mythology about why "we are one nation of people" and basically condition people in accepting that they are all cultural the same and especially different from their nation-state neighbors (hence competition).

"Only when you look at history through the lens of elites will you find nationalism and only today is nationalism a sentiment that exists en masse throughout any single nation-state."-- Pinko

Or because of the mobility of ideas? A larger sense of understanding, or just a vehicle of imperialism?


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None of the above. I mean imperialism has a lot to do with it but I attribute nationalism to a certain concept known as hegemony. Ruling classes, especially under capitalism, want a certain conformity of thought. It is easier to sell to an entire market of people who all crave the same things that simbolize the same dreams (ie, the american dream). Look at what people built for themselves as far as furniture goes 200 years ago compared to the cookie cutter repitition of today's Ikea culture. The things that people consumed back then had a certain degree of variance and uniqueness. Today everything is cookie cut to appeal to a single mass market. In order to create that market we require a unified belief that this one type of product is all that is good and holy. The same logic applies when the nation-state needs to go to war on behalf of capital (ie, today's war on Iraq). We, as Americans, are encouraged to support this war to protect what we have invented, democracy and freedom. Americans are taught to believe they invented these ideals, and for the most part this type of nationalist conditioning works. If it didn't we would all be fighting for a new kind of system. In my opinion its only a matter of time, peoples's lives aren't getting any better and its becoming harder for the ruling elites to justify why.

I think Nationalism is good for being happy with ones' self/culture and it imparts a good pride in one's background so to speak. As long as this pride doesn't look downwards on others its all to the good.

I'm not sure if this is possible. I think in-group cohesion is cemented by opposition to the out-group.