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26765, The West and its ideological war with Islam
Posted by KID22, Thu Mar-17-05 04:06 PM
I found this article a very good read for anybody intrested about the war of ideas with Islam and the West.
The author goes to discuss why the West not only lost this war with Islam recently but in actuality lost the war over a century ago.
Islam has survived Colonialism and Communism, infact it is easy to argue that these things strengthened it.
The article discusses all of this--plus. Very good read.



http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/13566/

Why the West has lost the ideological war against Muslims?
by Abid Mustafa
(Friday 11 March 2005)

"The West has spent the last two hundred years combating Islamic thoughts in the hope of dissuading Muslims from Islam. This campaign began with the orientalists who studied Islam and attacked its beliefs and rules."



"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

-- Samuel P. Huntington

During his visit to Europe, George Bush emphasised to his European hosts that spreading freedom and democracy was the only way of defeating terrorism in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world. His remarks echo a familiar tenet of his presidency - freedom triumphing over terrorism.

But, by coining the struggle as freedom versus terrorism, the Bush administration has avoided answering some pertinent questions like - What is terrorism? Who are the terrorists? Who is the enemy in the eyes of Bush and his acolytes the neo-conservatives?

The 9/11 Commission (by no means the first) stressed that the term war on terrorism was misleading and recommended that it should be renamed to place greater ideological emphasis against Islam. In October 2001 US General Wesley Clark, said that the US war against terrorism "was a war over Islam" that would define Islam "as either a peaceful or militant" force in society . Yet others have argued that it should be appropriately labelled war against political Islam.

Whatever differences exist amongst America’s political elite over the naming of the war there are few to be found amongst ordinary Americans. Thanks to the Islamaphobic corporate media, most Americans irrespective of their political orientation view the war on terror as a fight against Islam.

The same milieu exits in Europe. The lack of boldness on part of the Europe’s political class to confront Bush on these questions together with the Islamaphobic media has convinced ordinary Europeans that their new enemy is Islam and Muslims who live in their midst

Before 9/11 Muslims long held the view that American intervention in their lands is part of the ongoing struggle between Islam and the West. The aftermath of 9/11 only served to reinforce this view. Today an overwhelming majority of Muslims believe unequivocally that the war terrorism is a war against Islam and Muslims.

Hence, behind Bush’s charade of fighting terrorism the clash between Islam and the West is well and truly under way. This struggle is being fought at several levels. The most important of all is the ideological struggle. The winner of this battle will decide whether the future belongs to Islam or Western secular liberalism.

So the question that now arises is who is winning the battle of ideas? The answer is that the West long ago lost the ideological war against Islam. This due to the following reasons:

1). The West has spent the last two hundred years combating Islamic thoughts in the hope of dissuading Muslims from Islam. This campaign began with the orientalists who studied Islam and attacked its beliefs and rules.

For instance they attacked the divinity of the Quran, jihad, polygamy, the Islamic punishment system and the Caliphate. But despite this organised effort to alienate Muslims from Islam, the West is facing a resurgent Islam both at home and abroad.

In the West, Islam is the fastest growing religion both amongst immigrants and the indigenous community. Between 1989 and 1998 the Islamic population in Europe grew by over 100 percent, to 14 million (approximately 2 percent of the population), according to United Nations statistics . "Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick the author of a textbook guide to the Koran . America is not immune from this phenomenon. One expert estimates that 25,000 people a year become Muslims in the US; some clerics say they have seen conversion rates quadruple since Sept. 11.

Conversion figures aside, the attitudes of Muslims living in the West towards secular liberalism is equally damning. A recent ICM poll surveying Muslim attitudes in Britain published the following results: 81% view freedom of speech as a means of insulting Islam, 61% support the Sharia, 88% want Islam in schools, and 60% do not think they need to integrate.

If this is the outlook of Muslims in one of the main citadels of enlightenment then one can only guess the stance of Muslim world towards secular liberal values. Suffice to say that the West has failed to convince the Muslim masses that Western culture is better than Islam.

2). In the past the West employed the services of modernists such as Rifa’a At-Tahtawi (1801-1873), Jamal Ad-Din Al-Afghani (1838-1897), Muhammad Abduh (1849-1905), Taha Hussein (1889,1973) and Rashid Rida (1865-1935), Syed Ahmad Khan (1817-1898) to spear head their campaign of introducing Western culture under the guise of Islam. The impact of these reformists has not only been nullified but also reversed.

Today’s modernists find themselves in precarious situation. They are despised by Muslims and are seen as instruments of the cultural imperialism undertaking the West’s bidding to defame Islam.

In Western eyes they are viewed as being too Islamic and are no longer entrusted with the responsibility of turning Muslims away from Islam. America’s decision to revoke Tariq Ramadan’s visa and the media outrage at Al-Qardawi’s visit to the UK epitomises West’s mistrust of modernists. On the whole they are discredited and have become irrelevant in the battle of ideas between the West and Islam.

3). The biggest blow dealt by the West against the Islamic world came on March 3rd, 1924, when Britain through her stooge Mustafa Kamal destroyed the Caliphate. Lord Curzon speaking in the House of Commons said, "The point at issue is that Turkey has been destroyed and shall never rise again, because we have destroyed her spiritual power: the Caliphate and Islam. “ Subsequently, the European powers curved up the Islamic lands between them establishing direct colonial rule over the Muslim people.

The Muslim masses for the first time were exposed to Western solutions ranging from economic solutions which plundered their wealth to an educational syllabus which disconnected them from their history, reduced Islam to a mere set of rituals and taught them how to think like Westerners.

Moreover, Islam was effaced from temporal life only to be replaced by a secular rule. Later the West granted pseudo independence to the Muslim countries they had invented and appointed loyal servants to safeguard Western interests and to rule over Muslim people on their behalf.

If the West had thought that eight years of subjugation to secularism would have been enough to deter the Muslim masses from political Islam then they were gravely mistaken. The ferocity and direction of today’s Islamic revival has seized the attention of Western leaders. Vladimir Putin, Tony Blair and Donald Rumsfeld have joined a long chorus of Western leaders in 2004 warning about the dangers of a resurgent Caliphate. This was aptly summed up by Kissinger who said,”…what we call terrorism in the United States, but which is really the uprising of radical Islam against the secular world, and against the democratic world, on behalf of re-establishing a sort of Caliphate ”.

4). There is an inherent flaw in the ideology of secularism, which has led to its predictable rejection by the Muslim world. This is because secularism insists on restricting the role of Islam in society to personal worships only. Political decisions about running the society are left to human beings. This directly contradicts the doctrine of Muslims, which considers politics an indivisible part of Islam i.e. to Muslims Islam is politics. Bernard Lewis gave a similar assessment and said, “The absence of native secularism in Islam and the wide spread rejection of an imported secularism inspired by Christian example, may be attributed to certain profound differences of belief and experience in the two religious cultures ”.

Furthermore, secularism always leaves a spiritual void, especially when human beings are confronted by problems, which they are unable to solve. Separating God from temporal matters only accentuates this feeling

It is this intellectual weakness that has contributed to the dramatic rise of political Islam under the secular autocratic rule, which pervades much of the Muslim world.

The West should take heed from the inability of communism to dissuade Muslims from Islam. Communism a far deeper ideology than secularism also failed to convince the Muslim masses of materialism and man made laws.

5). The duplicity of the West in promoting Western values across the Muslim world has greatly undermined its credibility. Especially, after September 11, when Western doubles standards reached new heights. It was the episode of Abu Ghraib that revealed the true extent of the Western hypocrisy and hatred towards Muslims.

Western ideas such as freedom, democracy, human rights were given a devastating blow not by Muslims, but by America the so-called defender of liberty. Even the agent rulers in the Muslim world were left gasping and could not shield America from the evil crimes she had committed.

In one swoop, America by its own handiwork had permanently damaged its standing in the Muslim world and had gravely weakened the very ideas that represent the cornerstone of Western civilisation. So much so, that many non-Muslims are questioning the validity of these ideas and the deceitful role played by their governments abroad.

Hence for the very first time, Western governments are faced with the challenge of convincing their own citizens why these values have to be curbed at home, while these values are forcibly thrust upon the Muslim world. Perhaps Westerners should seek solace in the words of Oscar Wilde who said, “Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people.”

These are some of the reasons, which have contributed to the Muslim world’s rejection of Western culture and its secular liberal philosophy.

The stark reality facing Western governments today is that the Muslim ummah (Muslim nation) has won the battle of ideas. The chapter of ideological struggle between the Muslim ummah and the West is more or less closed. But the chapter of political struggle between the ummah and the West is still open- albeit for limited period. This is because the West and their surrogates have no political legitimacy left in the Muslim world. These surrogates only survive because of dogged support from Western powers.

Therefore the West and their puppets stand alone in coercing the ummah to accept Western values. While the ummah stands firm rejecting Western culture and calling for the return of a global Islamic state. The two positions are irreconcilable and polarisation in viewpoints between the regimes and its people cannot continue indefinitely.

It is only a matter of time before Muslims overthrow the secular order, which has been unjustly imposed upon them. Sensing the failure of its surrogates to contain political Islam, the West under the pretext of fighting terrorism has sought to re-occupy the Muslim lands in a desperate bid to reinforce its values and to safeguard its material interests.

West’s behaviour towards the Muslim world can be likened to that of a failed schoolteacher. A failed schoolteacher is a person who continues to beat his pupils in the vain hope of imbuing them with the values of the school. Instead, the teacher not only loses control of the class but also brings down the very establishment he is trying to protect.

Indeed Westerners have got far less to fear from the Islamists and more to fear from their own governments who in the name of freedom and democracy are slowly but surely ebbing away at the very foundations of their civilisation.

Notes:

. Wesley K. Clarke speaking on BBC World's Hardtalk programme, October 29
2001


. Muslims in Europe, The Economist, October 18, 2001.

. The Spread of a World Creed, The Times, November 9 1993

. Islam Attracts Converts by the Thousands, The New York Times, October 22
2001


. Henry Kissinger, Hindustan Times, Nov 2004

. What went wrong?, Bernard Lewis, 2003
26766, Deleted message
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 06:46 AM
No message
26767, I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 04:28 PM
but it is clear that there is a cultural struggle going on.

It's clear that the Arab world needs to modernize. Many muslims look at the violence and sex soaked western culture and wants no part of this kind of "modernization."

Thus, we need to find a way to offer the Arab world the democracy, freedom, technology, intellectual openess, etc. that comes with democracy while at the same time not making them afraid that their culture will be overrun with "immorality."
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26768, and how do you do that?
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 04:34 PM

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26769, RE: and how do you do that?
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 04:41 PM
well, right now it looks like we're trying to hold up Iraq as an example to the rest of the middle east, attempting to create a groundwell of support for democracy.

Will this approach work? There are some encouraging early signs, but it's too early to tell.

We should be (and I hope we are), raising up and supporting democratic reform groups over there. Because ultimately, it's going to have to be the people themselves, who are going to have to be the ones to reject terror.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26770, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 04:46 PM
What do you mean by "modernization"? Democracy?
26771, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 04:58 PM
>What do you mean by "modernization"?

Damn, I wish these had the numbers in front of me: There are much less books translated into Arabic than there are in languages that are rarely used. There are very small countries that come up with more inventions in a year than the entire middle east comes up with in like 10 years.

My point is that we have an entire section of the world living in basically a closed society. Given the wealth that's over there, it shouldn't be that way. I firmly beleive that this is one of the main reasons that drives a people to blow themselves up, kill innocent people in the process, and beleive that their going to be awarded in an afterlife for it. I think they see what's going on in the western world and the deeply resent it.

We can't afford to let the Middle East stay as it is, not while its leading people to fly planes into buildings.

>Democracy?

Basically getting rid of these governments that follow Islamic law, governments that support terrorism, opresses women, and keeps thier entire populations in poverty while they get fat off oil revenues.

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26772, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 05:04 PM
The new Iraqi givernment dominated by the Shiites want to be followed by Islamic law. Is right for us to say they shouldn't? Even in Afghanistan after the overthrow of the taliban, many women continued to wear burkas and did not object to strict dress codes. Also Uzbekistan and Kazikstan(excuse the spelling) are much worse than say Iran in terms of human rights , but is instrumental in helping the US fight terrorism. is Democracy what we want in the middle east or end of terrorism. I feel that one is not neccesarily synonomis with the other.
26773, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 05:13 PM
>The new Iraqi givernment dominated by the Shiites want to be
>followed by Islamic law.

I don't thinks that's a given. Right now, they have a coalition with the Kurds. It could happen though, we'll see.

Is right for us to say they
>shouldn't?

If that's what they chose, we have to step out. A govenment can have Islam at it's base and still be democratic.

>Democracy what we want in the middle east
>or end of terrorism. I feel that one is not neccesarily
>synonomis with the other.

We want the end of terrorism, and we're hoping that Democracy will get us there. It might work, it might not.

However, like I said, I think that once a country becomes democratic, it's not a closed society anymore, thus one of the main factors that lead people to embrace terrorism is gone.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26774, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 05:16 PM
But in Saudi Arabia the closed society is helpful. If Saaudi Arabia had an election today Osama Bin Laden wuld win in a landslide. Sometimes for the benfit of others you neeed to asuppress people. For example, Sadat in Egypt before he was assasinated. he suppressed the more militant factions by just rounding them up and jailing them.
26775, true
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 05:23 PM
And i'm not saying if every Middle East country held elections tomorrow, the problems over there would be solved.

But I do think that a democracy movement can defeat terrorism. It's going to take at least 30-40 years.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26776, RE: true
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 07:22 PM
Democracy doesn't stop terrorism. Terrorism will never stop. Terrorism isn't just arabs or muslims. It's your timothy mcVeighs, IRA extremists and blood diamond traders.
26777, Ok
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 09:14 PM
it doesn't have to exist in the Middle East to the level that it does today

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26778, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by mcsinger21, Mon Mar-21-05 03:44 PM
Bin Laden might win in an election in Saudi Arabia right now because everyone has been educated at schools taught by Clerics who teach the extremist forms of Islam. The great thing about democracy is it leads to freedom of ideas and the people can be educated how they want(at least in theory). That sort of freedom of ideas leads to a broadening of the mind probably driving more people away from the type of Islam that is leads to the blowing up of buildings. If everyone in America was forced to be taught by the fundamentalist Christians and the only book we were allowed to read was the Bible (or an off shout of writings praising the Bible's teachings) most people would probably be voting Pat Robertson for President.
26779, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by FireBrand, Mon Mar-21-05 03:54 PM
>Bin Laden might win in an election in Saudi Arabia right now
>because everyone has been educated at schools taught by
>Clerics who teach the extremist forms of Islam.

Where did you get THIS information?

The great
>thing about democracy is it leads to freedom of ideas

Explain how this is possible in democracy, and not in other models. Application might be one thing, but you specifically stated that democracy led to IDEAS.


and the
>people can be educated how they want(at least in theory).

LOL.


>That sort of freedom of ideas leads to a broadening of the
>mind probably driving more people away from the type of Islam
>that is leads to the blowing up of buildings.

no, on the contrary that sort of freedom funds the CIA to create madrasses that teach militant brands of Islam to fight proxy wars the world over, and when their students/student's causes are abandoned they blow up buildings like they were trained by America to do.


If everyone in
>America was forced to be taught by the fundamentalist
>Christians and the only book we were allowed to read was the
>Bible (or an off shout of writings praising the Bible's
>teachings) most people would probably be voting Pat Robertson
>for President.

Pat Robertson isn't that far a stretch from George Bush Jr.

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26780, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by mcsinger21, Mon Mar-21-05 04:15 PM
>>Bin Laden might win in an election in Saudi Arabia right
>now
>>because everyone has been educated at schools taught by
>>Clerics who teach the extremist forms of Islam.
>
>Where did you get THIS information?

www.cbsnews/stories/2002/09/06/60minutes/main521056.shtml

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/interviews/ahmed.html

After a two minute google search.

> The great
>>thing about democracy is it leads to freedom of ideas
>
>Explain how this is possible in democracy, and not in other
>models. Application might be one thing, but you specifically
>stated that democracy led to IDEAS.

Well I showed have said a democracy ideally leads to the freedom to seek out knowledge. It is not possible if you are ruled by an authoritarian regime (or any regime) that controls information. Democracy does not work if it is controling information thus leading to knowledge thus leading to IDEAS. I realize that this is in theory and it does not always work quite as well as we would like. That being said it works better than not having a choice.

>>That sort of freedom of ideas leads to a broadening of the
>>mind probably driving more people away from the type of
>Islam
>>that is leads to the blowing up of buildings.
>
>no, on the contrary that sort of freedom funds the CIA to
>create madrasses that teach militant brands of Islam to fight
>proxy wars the world over, and when their students/student's
>causes are abandoned they blow up buildings like they were
>trained by America to do.

My point does not deal with how the government in charge operates (in particular how it is corrupt). My point deals with the freedom for everyday people to live their life according to how they wish.
>
> If everyone in
>>America was forced to be taught by the fundamentalist
>>Christians and the only book we were allowed to read was the
>>Bible (or an off shout of writings praising the Bible's
>>teachings) most people would probably be voting Pat
>Robertson
>>for President.
>
>Pat Robertson isn't that far a stretch from George Bush Jr.
No arguements here on that one.
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26781, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 05:16 PM
But in Saudi Arabia the closed society is helpful. If Saudi Arabia had an election today Osama Bin Laden wuld win in a landslide. Sometimes for the benfit of others you neeed to asuppress people. For example, Sadat in Egypt before he was assasinated. he suppressed the more militant factions by just rounding them up and jailing them.
26782, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Medina, Thu Mar-17-05 09:05 PM
>
>
>Basically getting rid of these governments that follow Islamic
>law, governments that support terrorism, opresses women, and
>keeps thier entire populations in poverty while they get fat
>off oil revenues.
>

Reading your posts, It seems you have no idea about the Middle East, Arabs, or the larger Muslim world. Please take Brother Malcolm X out your sig.

There are only two "Islamic" governments in the world today. Saudi Arabia (which most Muslims laugh at) and Iran. Every other country is run by secular "democracies" or dictators. Most of the Muslim countries dont have oil either. The ones that do (except for Iran) are friends with America and the West. You have no idea what you are talking about.
26783, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 09:21 PM
Please take Brother
>Malcolm X out your sig.

why should I?

>There are only two "Islamic" governments in the world today.
>Saudi Arabia (which most Muslims laugh at) and Iran. Every
>other country is run by secular "democracies" or dictators.

Dictators are part of the problem too. Also, even where you have "democracies" the radicals have a lot of power.

>Most of the Muslim countries dont have oil either. The ones
>that do (except for Iran) are friends with America and the
>West. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Saudi Arabia is America's friend?

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26784, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 11:04 PM
>>Saudi Arabia is America's friend?
>
>BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Yes, the government is. He not talking about the people. Somebody got to buy that oil.
26785, Friend, huh? About as much as China is. We have a
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 11:07 PM
relationship. An energy/military based relationship.

aint no friends bout none of that.


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26786, RE: Friend, huh? About as much as China is. We have a
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 11:19 PM
True dat, I amend. I change it to business Relationship.
26787, RE: Friend, huh? About as much as China is. We have a
Posted by mcsinger21, Mon Mar-21-05 03:49 PM
The Bush's have a very good relationship with the Houe of Saud. They give us oil, give us a place for our military to attack from, and family members are often at the White House for dinner dates...as far as international politics goes that is about as friendly as it gets these days.
26788, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by Medina, Thu Mar-17-05 11:43 PM
>Please take Brother
>>Malcolm X out your sig.
>
>why should I?

Because he would be against everything youre saying in this thread.
>
>>There are only two "Islamic" governments in the world today.
>>Saudi Arabia (which most Muslims laugh at) and Iran. Every
>>other country is run by secular "democracies" or dictators.
>
>Dictators are part of the problem too. Also, even where you
>have "democracies" the radicals have a lot of power.

LOL so basically democracy is only good when the people that the US wants are elected.
>
>>Most of the Muslim countries dont have oil either. The ones
>>that do (except for Iran) are friends with America and the
>>West. You have no idea what you are talking about.
>
>Saudi Arabia is America's friend?
>
>BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAH!!!!!!!...Its the truth though. The US will not promote democracy in that country because people will vote out the Saudis who the US oil corps do business with. You really have no idea as to what youre talking about do you?



26789, RE: I wouldn't call it The West vs. Islam
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 10:13 AM

>Because he would be against everything youre saying in this
>thread.

Sorry, the dots still aren't connecting for me.

>LOL so basically democracy is only good when the people that
>the US wants are elected.

I said that?

>BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAH!!!!!!!...Its the truth though. The US
>will not promote democracy in that country because people will
>vote out the Saudis who the US oil corps do business with.

I'm not sure that would be the cause of a democracy movement, but ok, maybe you're right.

You
>really have no idea as to what youre talking about do you?

I know what i'm talking about, we just happen to disagree.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26790, Have you been reading Friedman?
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 09:09 PM
where do you get this shit? So it's wrong for a people to be pious? What should they do? Give up salat, and get a tivo?

where is the benefit in that?


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26791, RE: Have you been reading Friedman?
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 09:26 PM
Lol, I agree with a fair amount of what he says

>where do you get this shit?

I got my opinions like everyone else, I guess.

>So it's wrong for a people to be
>pious?

Not at all, but it's hurting that area of the world to forgo modernization in the name of religious piety.

>What should they do? Give up salat, and get a tivo?

I'm not sure i can answer this, I don't know what salat is.

>where is the benefit in that?

Hopefully the end result is the end of terrorism. Innocent people are being killed, and it's thier own people that are suffering the most.

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26792, How bout leaving a sovereign people ALONE?
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 09:36 PM
I mean, I know the US has to serve it's own demons. There is no way around that. But the dollar is going to have to understand that Deen don't bend for the Dollar.

That's the main difference I see between west and east *cues Buju*

-Napoleon thought the Russians were mad for burning down their own towns and cities before giving quarter.

-The Vietnam proxy war.

-The Afghanistan proxy war.

The Money doesn't win over belief. It never has, and it never will. Because there is no breaking the will of a people who answer to a power higher than their wallet, and their lustful desires.

Just leave them alone, because you won't win. It will just get ugly, and then uglier. Why even put yourself thru that? The only way to even it up is to make it a crusade.

And as you can already see, they BEEN on that program. Turn on Pat Robertson, or TBN and watch them attempt to trash Islam.

nah, fuck that.

All one really needs is Allah (SWT),The Qu'ran, the sunnah, your family, your community, and a place to pray.

all that other shit is optional.


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26793, RE: How bout leaving a sovereign people ALONE?
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 09:44 PM
We can't leave them alone. The status quo is what lead to 9/11.

>That's the main difference I see between west and east *cues
>Buju*

LOL

>Because there is no breaking the will of a people who
>answer to a power higher than their wallet, and their lustful
>desires.

Terrorists answer to a higher power? Those that truly anwer to a higher problem want freedom.

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26794, One man's terroist is another's freedom fighter.
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 09:48 PM
There are certainly those that are acting outside of the faith and using it as some sort of psuedo shield, but this is no different than christianity or Judiasm in this regard: Eric Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh, Ariel Sharon...

There will always be bad apples in the bunch, but as long as respect is not given, and encroachment upon what another holds dear is nonchalantly practiced?

You reap what you sow.

That's my opinion. Don't cage the snake, tease the snake then get mad when the snake bites you at feeding time tawn bout "I was just trying to feed it".
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26795, RE: One man's terroist is another's freedom fighter.
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 10:17 AM
>There will always be bad apples in the bunch, but as long as
>respect is not given, and encroachment upon what another holds
>dear is nonchalantly practiced?

You're making it sound like i'm saying the U.S. should intervene in every Middle East country and overthrow all thier governments. If you read over what I have been saying, that's not my argument at all.

Not only that, there are many people in the Middle East that want U.S. intervention. You think most Iraqis aren't happy Saddam is gone?

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26796, I'd be happy if something happened to ya dad...Dubya
Posted by G_Smooth, Fri Mar-18-05 10:34 AM
should we arrest him...
26797, No, you misunderstand ME.
Posted by FireBrand, Mon Mar-21-05 03:27 PM
>>There will always be bad apples in the bunch, but as long
>as
>>respect is not given, and encroachment upon what another
>holds
>>dear is nonchalantly practiced?
>
>You're making it sound like i'm saying the U.S. should
>intervene in every Middle East country and overthrow all thier
>governments. If you read over what I have been saying, that's
>not my argument at all.

There is only one way to argue in Islam and that is by using scripture. If there is something the matter with an approach in politics, economics, etc in an Islamic country all one has to do is argue based on Bible, Torah, Qu'ran and Sunnah. But anything else is unacceptable, and I know that I as a muslim and those in my community are uncomprimising in that respect. NOTHING else can be applied. NOTHING.


>
>Not only that, there are many people in the Middle East that
>want U.S. intervention. You think most Iraqis aren't happy
>Saddam is gone?

That was not the argument, so I'll leave this answer alone.
>
>------------------------------
>
>“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X


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26798, RE: How bout leaving a sovereign people ALONE?
Posted by mcsinger21, Mon Mar-21-05 03:58 PM
The problem comes when women are treated so poorly that they cannot leave their home without being persecuted. They can not drive a car, talk a walk, read the books they want, listen to their own music, dance...etc...this sort of restrictive society is harmful to many people in it. They have so few rights both culturally and legally (legal rules regarding women are often barberous). Is it the US's (or any other country's) business to force reform...no. But that isn't what is drives world politics anyway(driven by money and power).
The problems people have with Islam does not involve the piety you explained, most would agree those things you mentioned bring about good descent human beings.
26799, We!?!?
Posted by Tariq3, Thu Mar-17-05 05:16 PM
>Thus, we need to find a way to offer the Arab world the
>democracy, freedom, technology, intellectual openess, etc.
>that comes with democracy while at the same time not making
>them afraid that their culture will be overrun with
>"immorality."

LOL
26800, lol
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 05:27 PM
care to expound on that?

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26801, technology??
Posted by KID22, Thu Mar-17-05 05:53 PM
Have you ever been to Saudia Arabia? Arguably one of the most high tech nations on this planet, not to mention UAE, Kuwait, etc.

The thing that gets me all the time is how some people will say that the Mid-East needs more education to understand democracy. In countries like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Egypt, the average literacy rate is above 80%, in comparsion to countries like India or Pakistan which are democratic countries and America's allies in the war against terror, which have a literacy rate of only 50%!!

If you seperate the word modern from West, than Islam is the most modern religons, in that it emphasizes exploration, research, and so on.

The problem is though that the West doesn't care for implementing technology than it does for spreading it's CULTURE by which is the best gate way to spread it's capatalistic ideaologies.

The main problem with the Middle East is the corrupt leaders which are some way related to puppet governments put in place during colonial times. These governments (nothing compared to Amerca's greed though) fail to share their wealth with poorer nations such as Yemen and other Muslim African neighbors.




26802, PREACH, Ahki! Brilliant.
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 06:07 PM
I don't get how people REALLY think that arab countries are so backwards. They show pics of iraq out in the country as back water people and ignore the internet cafes, the cell phone technology, the great minds of the men and women...

It's really interesting how people actually buy in to that nonsense.


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26803, I've been to UAE several times it aint all fish gravey trust
Posted by Ason, Thu Mar-17-05 06:24 PM
I'd still rather live there than anywhere in the American south
my apologies to brother Firebrand
26804, RE: technology??
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 09:30 PM
i'm not saying there's no modernization there, but there's definitely not as much as their should be given the oil wealth in that part of the world. And my points about the lack of access to books and scientific developments stands.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26805, Damm Son..you be saying some dumb shit
Posted by G_Smooth, Thu Mar-17-05 06:02 PM
"It's clear that the Arab world needs to modernize"-Goggle Modernization Theory and edit your shit....Take ur Ethonocentric beliefs somewhere else...I'm sure u have the same take on African countries too....

"Thus, we need to find a way to offer the Arab world the democracy, freedom, technology, intellectual openess, etc. that comes with democracy while at the same time not making them afraid that their culture will be overrun with "immorality."

Expound on that genius....do "WE" offer them democraZy using bombs......

26806, Wsup with that hostile tone? U mad?
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 06:04 PM
why u always posting mad? what's the matter?


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26807, I's mad
Posted by G_Smooth, Thu Mar-17-05 06:05 PM
26808, RE: Damm Son..you be saying some dumb shit
Posted by sunngodd, Thu Mar-17-05 09:38 PM
>"It's clear that the Arab world needs to modernize"-Goggle
>Modernization Theory and edit your shit....Take ur
>Ethonocentric beliefs somewhere else...

care to offer some explanation?

I'm sure u have the
>same take on African countries too....

Yes I do, and what would that have to do with this discussion?

>Expound on that genius....do "WE" offer them democraZy using
>bombs......

Ultimately any democracy movement would have to come from within those coutries, their only so much we can do, it's up to the people to reject terrorism. The best we can do right now is help Iraq become a functioning democracy (if that's possible), and continue to stand firm against terror. Given a chance, I beleive the people will make the right choice.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26809, OK Rummy....turn off Foxnews for a sec
Posted by G_Smooth, Thu Mar-17-05 10:13 PM
26810, You gonna let him win like that? damn. challenge him!
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 10:17 PM
no offense sungodd, but damn that is some BS. What makes you think that democracy is applicable EVERYWHERE? It's the conduit for capitalism, sure and the dollar demands that new markets are maximized...

But you gonna have to understand that politics and finance isn't the driving force the world over.

and it's wrong to tell people that they are backward because they have a different set of priorities.
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26811, when he used dubya Rhetoric...i lost
Posted by G_Smooth, Thu Mar-17-05 10:21 PM
26812, No, we all lost when you decided you lost.
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 10:23 PM
if u aint gonna sing, why join the choir?


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26813, I've had the same arguement with Foxmess...
Posted by G_Smooth, Thu Mar-17-05 10:59 PM
26814, excuses.
Posted by FireBrand, Thu Mar-17-05 11:03 PM

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26815, ok...I have lost in my arguement..I concede victory
Posted by G_Smooth, Thu Mar-17-05 11:25 PM
to Rummy
26816, RE: Damm Son..you be saying some dumb shit
Posted by Bdiddy04, Thu Mar-17-05 11:18 PM
You know absolutely nothing. The terror movement started out of US foreign policy. Strictly after Bush the 1st used Saudi Arabia to launch attacks on Iraq. Now the US invading Iraq did nothing to stop terrorism, in fact it's what the terrorist wanted. You don't think they're watchin g Al jazeera and seeing their people being killed. Finally, The war a terror is at a complete halt because we aren't actively trying to dismantle Al Quaeda. Bin laden and Al-Zawahiri are still in hiding. Turn of fox News and rush Limbaugh and pay attention to accurate news.

Side note- Take the picture of MY city's former mayor out your avy. You disrepecting his memory you dumb shit.
26817, RE: Damm Son..you be saying some dumb shit
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 10:08 AM
>You know absolutely nothing. The terror movement started out
>of US foreign policy. Strictly after Bush the 1st used Saudi
>Arabia to launch attacks on Iraq.

"They turn to terrorism because they hate American policies" is an incredibly simplistic point of view. True, they use "American presence in the holy land" as a reason to hate America, but the truth is that the ultimate goal of many Muslim radicals is the destruction of any government that doesn't govern itself by Islamic law. And what would drive people to kill tons of innocent people, many of them their own people, in the name of some "higher cause," and think that God is going to reward them, has to be a more complicated issue than "they hate America."

Now the US invading Iraq did
>nothing to stop terrorism, in fact it's what the terrorist
>wanted. You don't think they're watchin g Al jazeera and
>seeing their people being killed.

It's increased terror in the short run, but it has the potential to spark a democracy movement in the long run.


Finally, The war a terror is
>at a complete halt because we aren't actively trying to
>dismantle Al Quaeda. Bin laden and Al-Zawahiri are still in
>hiding.

Put on halt? Do you have any evidence of that? I'm sure there's a lot that's going on that we'll never hear about.

Turn of fox News and rush Limbaugh and pay attention
>to accurate news.

huh?

>Side note- Take the picture of MY city's former mayor out your
>avy. You disrepecting his memory you dumb shit.

It's my city too. And let's say that he would disagree 100% with every point i'm making, how am I disrespecting him?


------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26818, You win the award for dumbest motherfucker alive
Posted by Bdiddy04, Fri Mar-18-05 10:57 AM

>
>"They turn to terrorism because they hate American policies"
>is an incredibly simplistic point of view. True, they use
>"American presence in the holy land" as a reason to hate
>America, but the truth is that the ultimate goal of many
>Muslim radicals is the destruction of any government that
>doesn't govern itself by Islamic law. And what would drive
>people to kill tons of innocent people, many of them their own
>people, in the name of some "higher cause," and think that God
>is going to reward them, has to be a more complicated issue
>than "they hate America."
It is more than that, but It's their main cause for attacking us. The Us doesn't give a damn about those islamic dictatorships which is what I was saying fucknuts. They will support any horrible dictatorship if it benefits the US. Hell they supported the Taliban before 9/11.
>It's increased terror in the short run, but it has the
>potential to spark a democracy movement in the long run.
In the long run we're all dead. Learn up on some history. Only stable democracy movements come from the people and the people are not salivating for all over the middle east.

.
>
>Put on halt? Do you have any evidence of that? I'm sure
>there's a lot that's going on that we'll never hear about.
When's the last time you heard anyone talk about Al Quaeda.

Nigga you in St. Louis. Don't try to rep my city because yours is fucked up bitch.

26819, namecalling? lets keep this at an 11th grade level, at least
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 11:09 AM
>It is more than that, but It's their main cause for attacking
>us. The Us doesn't give a damn about those islamic
>dictatorships which is what I was saying fucknuts. They will
>support any horrible dictatorship if it benefits the US. Hell
>they supported the Taliban before 9/11.

I agree that this is the attitude that we took pre-9/11 and look what it lead too. I don't think we can afford to anymore.

>In the long run we're all dead. Learn up on some history. Only
>stable democracy movements come from the people and the
>people are not salivating for all over the middle east.

I already said in this post that democratic change would untimatley have to come from teh people. Right now, it looks like the people of Lebanon want Democracy. Iraqis have shown that they want Democracy. I wouldn't say that people are "salivating" for democracy all over the middle east, but we might be seeing the beginnings of a democarcy movement. Then again, maybe we're not, it's too early to tell.

>Nigga you in St. Louis. Don't try to rep my city because yours
>is fucked up bitch.

Nigga, I was born and raised in the Chi. I'm in St. Louis going to grad school

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26820, all your posts prove u need to take a middle eastern history class
Posted by Bdiddy04, Fri Mar-18-05 01:01 PM


>>
>
>I already said in this post that democratic change would
>untimatley have to come from teh people. Right now, it looks
>like the people of Lebanon want Democracy. Iraqis have shown
>that they want Democracy. I wouldn't say that people are
>"salivating" for democracy all over the middle east, but we
>might be seeing the beginnings of a democarcy movement. Then
>again, maybe we're not, it's too early to tell.

Lebanon is no protesting for democracy. They want the syrian military presence to end. The Iraqui democracy is still in the establishment stage. There can be no predictions until it is consolidated and surivives crucial tests to the democracy.

26821, RE: all your posts prove u need to take a middle eastern history class
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 01:33 PM
>Lebanon is no protesting for democracy. They want the syrian
>military presence to end.

They want an end to the domination of their government by the Syrians. They want to elect their own government. That's democracy, last time I checked.

The Iraqui democracy is still in the
>establishment stage. There can be no predictions until it is
>consolidated and surivives crucial tests to the democracy.

Well, of course it's still in it's infant stages. All I said was Iraqis want democracy, can that be disputed? If they didn't want democracy, why did they bother voting?
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26822, RE: all your posts prove u need to take a middle eastern history class
Posted by Bdiddy04, Fri Mar-18-05 01:55 PM
They want an end to the domination of their government by the
>Syrians. They want to elect their own government. That's
>democracy, last time I checked.
The nation is split on being pro syrian or anti-0 syrian. they had marches on both sides. There have been anti- syrian prime ministers. Check your history. There constitution is such that government has to be split. the president must be a Maronite Christian,
the prime minister must be a Sunni Muslim, and
the speaker of the legislature must be a Shi'a Muslim. Just stop talking about shit you know nothing about.
26823, thanks for the lesson
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 02:05 PM
but you refuted nothing as to my point about a possible democratic movement across the middle east.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26824, RE: thanks for the lesson
Posted by Bdiddy04, Fri Mar-18-05 02:10 PM
I spot is a movement. You needed a fucking war to start a movement in one place. You should just get off okayplater and go here www.hughmadson.com
26825, There's a war going on
Posted by sunngodd, Fri Mar-18-05 02:19 PM
isn't that was what his post is about?
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26826, That has to be the worst reply ever.
Posted by Bdiddy04, Fri Mar-18-05 02:24 PM
www.hughmadson.com
26827, On this part:
Posted by tha8thjewel, Mon Mar-21-05 03:56 PM
>>It is more than that, but It's their main cause for
>attacking
>>us. The Us doesn't give a damn about those islamic
>>dictatorships which is what I was saying fucknuts. They will
>>support any horrible dictatorship if it benefits the US.
>Hell
>>they supported the Taliban before 9/11.
>
>I agree that this is the attitude that we took pre-9/11 and
>look what it lead too. I don't think we can afford to
>anymore.

Well, we might not be able to afford to, but we're sure enough still providing ROBUST support to the military dictatorship of Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan, and trying to sell him F-16's for some reason. The US has never cared about democracy in its policy in the Middle East, otherwise they would not have assassinated Mohammed Mossadegh, the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran, or backed Saddam Hussein's overthrow of a popular government in Iraq.

And the idea that the Iraq War was primarily about democracy, or that the US has any intention of supporting an Iraqi government that is not pro-American and doesn't open the oil spigots to America at a discount and provide a base for further US military operations in the Middle Easy is laughable.


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift
26828, RE: On this part:
Posted by sunngodd, Mon Mar-21-05 04:32 PM
>>>It is more than that, but It's their main cause for
>>attacking
>>>us. The Us doesn't give a damn about those islamic
>>>dictatorships which is what I was saying fucknuts. They
>will
>>>support any horrible dictatorship if it benefits the US.
>>Hell
>>>they supported the Taliban before 9/11.
>>
>>I agree that this is the attitude that we took pre-9/11 and
>>look what it lead too. I don't think we can afford to
>>anymore.
>
>Well, we might not be able to afford to, but we're sure enough
>still providing ROBUST support to the military dictatorship of
>Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan, and trying to sell him F-16's
>for some reason. The US has never cared about democracy in its
>policy in the Middle East, otherwise they would not have
>assassinated Mohammed Mossadegh, the democratically elected
>Prime Minister of Iran, or backed Saddam Hussein's overthrow
>of a popular government in Iraq.

True, we haven't always supported democracy in the middle east, but that's the stragey now. As far as Musharraf goes, he's to valuable right now. In fact, he'll probably never be confronted at all, becuase he's helped in the war on terror.

>And the idea that the Iraq War was primarily about democracy,

I beleiveb that the #1 reason for the war was to spread democracy thorughout the middle east. The neo-conservatives believe that more democracies in the world means the US is safer and the US remains the world leader. And I think oil did play into the decsion as well, but the number one reason was this ideological goal of the neocons.


or that the US has any intention of supporting an Iraqi
>government that is not pro-American and doesn't open the oil
>spigots to America at a discount and provide a base for
>further US military operations in the Middle Easy is
>laughable.

It true, America is in a very delcate position in Iraq. On one hand, it wants the people to choose. On the other hand, they don't want to go through all this to end up with a government that hates America. That's why the spreading democracy thing is so difficult. We'll see how it plays out.

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X
26829, RE: On this part:
Posted by tha8thjewel, Mon Mar-21-05 04:36 PM
>True, we haven't always supported democracy in the middle
>east, but that's the stragey now. As far as Musharraf goes,
>he's to valuable right now. In fact, he'll probably never be
>confronted at all, becuase he's helped in the war on terror.

Either you support democracy or you don't. You can't have it both ways, tell some people that they deserve democracy, but for others it has to wait because it doesn't serve the interests of a foreign power.

>>And the idea that the Iraq War was primarily about
>democracy,
>
>I beleiveb that the #1 reason for the war was to spread
>democracy thorughout the middle east. The neo-conservatives
>believe that more democracies in the world means the US is
>safer and the US remains the world leader. And I think oil
>did play into the decsion as well, but the number one reason
>was this ideological goal of the neocons.

well, if you believe that, we can't have a conversation, because you are living in a fantasy world.