>>>>Why wouldn't he be? You seem to think that if someone
>>>>doesn't "believe" in "God" (and again, I don't pretend to
>>>>know anyone's beliefs, even my own), then it makes no sense
>>>>for him to care about society. This is nonsense.
>>>
>>>Wrong. I KNOW we ALL care about society. I'm not accusing
>>>anyone of not caring, but recognizing the fact that we share
>>>a common bond here. But that fact has to be legitimized by
>>>God for it to be a fact.
>>
>>WRONGGGGG!!! Can we all stop throwing that word around as
>>if we really understood some shit? We're talking philosophy
>>here, nobody is "wrong."
>
>If I say there is a God, and you say there is no God, one of
>us is wrong. This is the first rule in logical truth-value.

"The first rule in logical truth-value"?

?

?

Are you serious with that? I'm starting to think 40thStreetBlack was right. You are InVerse, aren't you?

But seriously, you argue that if you say God exists, and I say God doesn't exist, then one of us must be wrong. That statement is simply . . . um, what's the word? . . . wrong.

First of all, neither of us has defined what we mean by "God." Second, neither of us has defined what we mean by "existence." Third, neither of us has defined what we mean by "truth." Is a true statement provable in principle, not disprovable in principle, verifiable in principle, not unverifiable in principle?

Logic is a serious business. People shouldn't attempt to use it as a weapon until they are sure they can handle it.


>>The common bond among all humans is pretty clear from
>>ordinary experience. If I see a dude on the sidewalk, walk
>>up and crack him in the jaw, he'll crack me right back.
>
>Are you sure?

As sure as I need to be.

>>It's better for all of us, including me, if I just smile and
>>keep walking.
>>
>>The "common bond" among all of humanity is that we're all
>>stuck here together. We have to cooperate, or rather, in
>>the long run, we want to cooperate.
>
>So your morality is a based on your own survival?

Not only that. My own happiness and well-being, those of the people I care about, etc.

>I don't
>believe you. Would you rather walk up to the dude and crack
>him in his jaw than keep walking?

Why would I? Maybe that lack of inclination bothers you.

Okay, let's not talk about cracking a dude in the jaw, let's talk about stealing his wallet. Sure, I might like to have that money in the dude's wallet, but I know it comes at a serious price. If I was to take the wallet, first I run the risk that he might notice me and retaliate. But more importantly, if I was to steal the man's wallet, I would be contributing to a society in which I do not want to live. If I take the man's wallet, I am inviting him, or others, to take mine. Or even if they don't do that, they would at least lose trust in me, and lock me up for their own protection. My fear is not that God would judge me, it's that society would judge me, and that I would judge myself.

>>>>With or without God, there is still beauty.
>>>
>>>I disagree.
>>>
>>>With or without
>>>>God, there is still pain.
>>>
>>>I agree.
>>
>>Oooh! Dramatic!
>
>You made opinionated statements... I gave you my opinion.
>
>>>We are completely aware of these
>>>>things, we see them every day (which is more than I can say
>>>>for God). We also know that they never take a completely
>>>>local existence. If we assume there is no God, then IT'S UP
>>>>TO US to increase the beauty and reduce the pain.
>>>
>>>Why? I cannot see why it would matter if I blew up the world
>>>if there is no God.
>>
>>Most atheists are not so childish.
>
>I was an atheist... I know atheists are not childish.

You say you don't think atheists are childish, but you also said that there is no reason an atheist should care if the world continued to exist or not. Those statements, it seems to me, are contradictory.

>I
>just couldn't ever answer the "childish" question when I was
>one.

So you distrust all other atheists because you weren't successful at it yourself.

>>>If there is no God, who is to say a
>>>Rwandan genocide is wrong? Aren't the murderers just as
>>>valid in their beliefs as I am?
>>
>>Sure, if the only justification you ask for is supernatural.
>> In reality, what goes around comes around. The murderers
>>have made a lot of enemies. They'll get theirs someday, and
>>even if they don't they'll still be targets of revenge for
>>the rest of their lives. Even if they aren't judged by God,
>>they've been judged by the rest of us.
>
>No, they haven't. Not if their actions are as validated as
>your own.

But that's the thing. I'm not validating a damn thing! On the contrary, I'm the one saying those acts are despicable. Not because God told me so, just because it's clear to me.

>Then we have no right to judge them.

Why not? I'll do all the judging I want. God sure isn't gonna stop me.

>I'm not
>asking for justification from God... right now, I'm simply
>arguing the point that a Rwandan genocide is wrong. If you
>honestly believe their actions are as valid as your own (as
>you just stated), I simply do not believe you. peace,

Again, that is the opposite of what I said! I made a point of saying what they did was wrong, and that they deserve to be judged, and punished. And again, I am the one saying it! I'm not leaving the judgement up to some space alien that I "believe" to exist.