off the bat, let me make it clear that the words, in and of themselves have no significance. ALL minority groups have had overall name changes at different points in time, and still face INTRAGROUP struggles in terms of how to group identify, if at all. the level of significance these words tend to garner and the criteria by which they are judged as offensive or not has everything to historical context.

there's no traditional, simple a + b = c logic to the words and how or why they change over time when you look at the words in a vacuum.

not everyone seems to know this, so i thought i'd just say it for the record.

that said, here i go...

>but the only reasons i've ever heard beyond "oriental is a
>rug" (which obviously doesn't explain a damn thing since an
>oriental rug is called an oriental for a reason) was that "the
>term 'oriental' is a european word made to describe that which
>is not european"...ummm yes, english is a european language,
>so european languages can't have words that refer to things,
>even in english-language debates over english language usage
>judged and moderated by non europeans with charges of
>eurocentric speech? so THAT argument was either not made well
>at all to me or just doesn't make any sense.

i think you might be misinterpreting the argument. the argument as you laid out is weak. i mean, there's a genuine argument about the imposition of english/european names as an extension of colonialism, and the "eurocentrification" of non-european things and places (renaming mountain peaks and lakes in africa to reflect european presences, etc.)

but the more valid argument i've heard about "oriental" being a "european" is more about world view than it is about language. as you know, oriental means "eastern," and has the connotation of europe's centrality. yes, yes, the globe is round...so it doesn't *really* matter...and also there's the concept of the "occidental" and the "western world"...BUT those terms are used to describe places, not people.

bottomline, the idea of the "oriental" is a loaded, indellibly imperialist and white supremacist construct and has been outmoded as the world has become more sophitcated (scoff) in its understanding of differences between peoples.

that "oriental is a rug, not a person" speaks to the fact that at a certain point in time, people of asian descent decided that they'd no longer accept what they saw as an inherent objectification that was packed in with term "oriental."

divorcing personhood/humanity from thing or place was/is vital in combating racism and white supremacist/eurocentric constructs of "the other."

>the other objection that was never really spelled out to me,
>but i'm able to figure, is the idea of lumping everyone from
>koreans to japanese to cambodians to chinese etc into one word
>because of certain similarities it would seem have become
>politically incorrect to notice...YET, the word "oriental" has
>just been replaced with another word (asian) in order to refer
>to the same exact thing (everything that oriental was ever
>used for) just with different syllables.

many people find "asian american" or "asian" problematic as well. pacific islanders regularly to get recognition separate from "asians." people from asian countries who, in general, came to american as refugees don't share the same status as those who came, in general, educated, monied, and ready to capitalize on the u.s. booming technology industry in the mid-eighties and early nineties.

they certainly have no desire to be lumped in with the "model minorities."

there are lots of discussions going on all the time about the politics of identity and names.

every name will be problematic for one reason or another, either because it's too general, or too exclusive, become some find it offensive, and others find it liberatiing...etc. etc.

it's all a big headache, and while none of this is the sole reason oriental needs to be phased out or why it's considered offensive, it is one of many reasons why it's not a helpful term when trying to properly contextualize the group of people it's trying to label.