as most of you are aware, the term "oriental" is no longer an exceptable term unless you're speaking about a rug (or, according to other people, any "thing" that's not a person). it is now considered offensive, and has been replaced in recent years by the word "asian".

now, i'm of the belief that we should always (within reason) call people whatever they want to be called and not call them whatever they don't want to be called.

but the only reasons i've ever heard beyond "oriental is a rug" (which obviously doesn't explain a damn thing since an oriental rug is called an oriental for a reason) was that "the term 'oriental' is a european word made to describe that which is not european"...ummm yes, english is a european language, so european languages can't have words that refer to things, even in english-language debates over english language usage judged and moderated by non europeans with charges of eurocentric speech? so THAT argument was either not made well at all to me or just doesn't make any sense.

the other objection that was never really spelled out to me, but i'm able to figure, is the idea of lumping everyone from koreans to japanese to cambodians to chinese etc into one word because of certain similarities it would seem have become politically incorrect to notice...YET, the word "oriental" has just been replaced with another word (asian) in order to refer to the same exact thing (everything that oriental was ever used for) just with different syllables.

so that can't be it either.

and as far as the word "asian" goes, i really really really hate using this word to describe people from only one part of asia, because the stupidity and hypocrisy of it all just seems so rediculously dumb...but i use it, because i've also been told that east-asian or far-eastern is also unpolite and i'm not trying to disrespect anyone.

but osama, jesus, ghandi, sharon, arafat, putin, everywhere from moscow to calcutta, india to isreal, turkey to mecca, is asian. so it's obviously pretty retarded to suddenly just call SOME asians asian because you want to do a hilariously piss poor job of hiding the fact that you can tell the similarity between a vietnamese and a mongolian.

so can someone please explain to me the REAL reason oriental shouldn't be used, and please don't say "because it's a european word", because this is a european language so everything is a european word, and please don't say "because we don't want to admit that there's a shared similarity between all these peoples that isn't shared outside of those formerly described as oriental" if you're also the type of person who uses the other word to refer to the same thing anyways.

and this is the BIG ONE: all you people-formerly-known-to-eurocentric-languages as "oriental" need to help me out. is there any other word besides "asian" that i can use?

but the context is considered inappropriate now I guess.

Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please. © Walter Sobchak

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If your music was any good it would've been stolen by the white man by now."

- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog

lol @ chinaman.

and stems from greek or latin language. When they traveled east they called it the orient and called the people oriental.

Notice only europeans will call someone out of their name by their own definition and make it apply to mainstream.

******************************

______________________________
"...I'm telling ya these walls are
funny. First you hate 'em, then
you get used to 'em. Enough,
time passes, you get so you
depend on 'em. That's
"institutionalized."

Red, The Shawshank Redemption.







_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

I think the main problem is that "Oriental" is just another byproduct of colonialism during the 18th and 19th centuries. In other words, you would've never went to some of the countries that one might consider "oriental" and here people from those countries use that term or any equivalent-- 'cause no equivalent existed. They didn't see themselves as oriental, European empires did. "Oriental" is just one of many terms that European imperial powers (especially Britain in this case) used to identify other peoples and nations as exotic and different from the mother country. If you look briefly through 19th century novels (Jane Eyre, Bleak House, etc etc) you'll see that terms like "Oriental" are thrown around to try to make sense of citizens of Englishman and Englishwoman in relation to Asian colonies.

Basically, some of the people who don't want to be called 'Oriental' don't want that colonial label to monopolize their identity anymore.

>I think the main problem is that "Oriental" is just another
>byproduct of colonialism during the 18th and 19th centuries.
>In other words, you would've never went to some of the
>countries that one might consider "oriental" and here people
>from those countries use that term or any equivalent--
>'cause no equivalent existed. They didn't see themselves as
>oriental, European empires did.

well, and they didn't see noodles as noodles, pasta as pasta, rice as rice, rugs as rugs, trees as trees, water as water, or anything else as the words another language uses to describe something, so i don't understand the issue with europeans having their own words for something, and those who speak european languages (you and i) using european words.

>"Oriental" is just one of
>many terms that European imperial powers (especially Britain
>in this case) used to identify other peoples and nations as
>exotic and different from the mother country.

i read this somewhere. but then, if it was used to describe everywhere far and different from europe, why do we automatically know, when someone refers to something or something being "oriental" that it's talking about so-called "asian" people and places, and not kenya, india, etc? when did the change occur? not that it really matters, i'm just curious.


>If you look
>briefly through 19th century novels (Jane Eyre, Bleak House,
>etc etc) you'll see that terms like "Oriental" are thrown
>around to try to make sense of citizens of Englishman and
>Englishwoman in relation to Asian colonies.

not sure if i understood this sentence the way you structured it. oh well.

>Basically, some of the people who don't want to be called
>'Oriental' don't want that colonial label to monopolize
>their identity anymore.

i admit i'm not as up on world history as some people here, but i did the english even colonize much of that part of the world?

also, any comments on today's use of the word "asian", making it exclusively an almost exact synonym for what less informed people still call "oriental"?

>i admit i'm not as up on world history as some people here,
>but i did the english even colonize much of that part of the
>world?

The British had a stake in part of China, if I recall correctly - sphere of influence. They also colonized India.
The Dutch colonized Indonesia (East Indies, I think).
The French colonized Indochina, what is currently Vietnam and maybe also includes Thailand and Cambodia. That's why there's a lot of Catholic Vietnamese.
Portugal colonized the island of Macao, which is a part of China, I think.


>also, any comments on today's use of the word "asian", making
>it exclusively an almost exact synonym for what less informed
>people still call "oriental"?

I think 'Asian' is more inclusive than the term 'oriental.' Like you mentioned, it includes everything from the Middle East all the way to Japan. It's sort of like the word 'black' - you can be from any part of the world, but yet you are still 'black.'
I think in political terms, these terms (Asian, Black/African-American) are helpful in attempting to bring together people from different cultures, religions and socioecnomic backgrounds.

>Notice only europeans will call someone out of their name by
>their own definition and make it apply to mainstream.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If your music was any good it would've been stolen by the white man by now."

- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog

and my girl has Asian heritage.

But it's your image of the word that makes it have it's effect,as well as the actual words you use.

Just don't call my girl a "Chink"!!!

sig:
man you getting me in battle mode
and i don't even battle...lol...but thanx
Chris...you are pure inspiration!
(poet_is_me)

"chrisdefendorf and blaxxx are the
only reason i go
to activist"
okP Beartholomew, cited 2/27/05

are you stealthily castigating me with
the veracity i bring in the obtuse face
of your clownly aimless castigations?
(interpolation of several blaxx
sentences , no disrespect. )

<http://profiles.myspace.com/users/[br />10450673
:www.whatever.com
|whatever you wanna call it ]


NIGHTLY REPORTS ON MY
REALITY EXPLORATION/CREATION on
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blog (updated during the day, and
then finished at 11PM EST)

PEACE,
Christopher (the name means
"chris... Dear Friend") Defendorf (the
name mean
"Raspberry" nahmean)

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

are there any words besides asian that you would NOT mind someone using?

also, just out of curiosity, why did you personally choose "asian"?

it's a term of endearment.
it's an energy, a resonance, a vibration.

you could easily say that that word judgementally, and hurt yourself & then hurt other people. obviously i dont condoe that or anyone else doing that, nor do i support anybody doig so.
if it's a term of endearment, you can call me anything.... nigger, wigger, (LOL), whiteboy,

i prefer chris or christopher.

within certtain limits. I let people who are closer friends know how I can be hurt, what words could cut me. I don't let just anybody know that, though, and i certailyu dont let my enemy know how i can be hurt. that's called being foolish & self-destructive.

As far as what you can call my girl, that's between you and that being, that spark of consciousness. However, if someone goes after her, I will defend her, of course.

I will protect her.

But come on now, ADOLESCENTS take things literally. You could call her an Asian judgementally and ruin her day (not, i repeat, not her life), and you could call her an oriental under the right circumstances (AND non-judgementally) & it would probably be funny.

However, since you don't know her, you're probably projecting mother onto her if you're weighing whatyou'd call her.

It's more of an energy.


I use asian or dark-skinned because it feels good to say it. I ususally don't say African-American, I say "BLACK" because it feels better. Also, if I had my way around the world, people, all people, would be considered DARK. Not Black, or African diasporic, but DARK, as in POWERFUL. YOur darkness is where your power is, because that's what's not illuminated. If you stay in your power, you'll have my respect and admiration. Look at Malcolm. If he had said certain things, he would have been slaughtered by EVERYBODY in this racist country. He was assassinated, which is a tragedy, but that's not my point.

He could have illuminated something inappropriately and gotten punished for it, and held back HUMAN RIGHTS as a result.

I choose my bizzattles and I take it one step at a time.


sig:
man you getting me in battle mode
and i don't even battle...lol...but thanx
Chris...you are pure inspiration!
(poet_is_me)

"chrisdefendorf and blaxxx are the
only reason i go
to activist"
okP Beartholomew, cited 2/27/05

are you stealthily castigating me with
the veracity i bring in the obtuse face
of your clownly aimless castigations?
(interpolation of several blaxx
sentences , no disrespect. )

<http://profiles.myspace.com/users/[br />10450673
:www.whatever.com
|whatever you wanna call it ]


NIGHTLY REPORTS ON MY
REALITY EXPLORATION/CREATION on
my
blog (updated during the day, and
then finished at 11PM EST)

PEACE,
Christopher (the name means
"chris... Dear Friend") Defendorf (the
name mean
"Raspberry" nahmean)

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

all that's wonderful and i agree, but i think you took me to harshly.

i was just wondering if there was another word out there besides asian that would do.

>all that's wonderful and i agree, but i think you took me to
>harshly.
>
I wasn't singling you out. I charge for that. (grin) i wasn't being harsh... i was making a point.


>i was just wondering if there was another word out there
>besides asian that would do.

HUMAN.

or just make up something and make it be a term of endearment. and don't ever say it to someone out of guilt. cause then you're calling them that or saying that word out of ANGER.

sig:
man you getting me in battle mode
and i don't even battle...lol...but thanx
Chris...you are pure inspiration!
(poet_is_me)

"chrisdefendorf and blaxxx are the
only reason i go
to activist"
okP Beartholomew, cited 2/27/05

are you stealthily castigating me with
the veracity i bring in the obtuse face
of your clownly aimless castigations?
(interpolation of several blaxx
sentences , no disrespect. )

<http://profiles.myspace.com/users/[br />10450673
:www.whatever.com
|whatever you wanna call it ]


NIGHTLY REPORTS ON MY
REALITY EXPLORATION/CREATION on
my
blog (updated during the day, and
then finished at 11PM EST)

PEACE,
Christopher (the name means
"chris... Dear Friend") Defendorf (the
name mean
"Raspberry" nahmean)

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

nah the word "oriental" was created by Europeans, but it was comes from the word "orient" to orient oneself. so what it really relates to is a perspective of being the center, such as europeans thought europe was the center of the world. It has those negative connotations such "slanted" which means not straight, i.e. not normal. Oriental relates to that foreign, not normal, Im half japanese and I've never called myself oriental, and oh ya, middle easterners are not asian, nor do they call themselves asian. india and iraq are not both asian. Osama bin laden is not asian I dont think anyone besides you thinks he is. In the 60's the term asian-american was created by people like me-asians so dont trip if a group of people don't want to be called by an archaic term made up by ethno-centric europeans.

>nah the word "oriental" was created by Europeans, but it was
>comes from the word "orient" to orient oneself. so what it
>really relates to is a perspective of being the center, such
>as europeans thought europe was the center of the world.

i disagree with this conclusion. to orient oneself with that which is outside, does not imply that you think you're the center of the world. the word "oriental" is a part of a language of a people (england), for whom everything outside of europe IS outside of their origin. it makes perfect sense for someone from house A to look at the houses around them and say "these houses are outside and around us" without thinking that their own house is the center of the town.



>it has those negative connotations such "slanted" which means
>not straight, i.e. not normal. Oriental relates to that
>foreign, not normal, Im half japanese and I've never called
>myself oriental, and oh ya, middle easterners are not asian,
>nor do they call themselves asian. india and iraq are not
>both asian. Osama bin laden is not asian I dont think anyone
>besides you thinks he is.

they are from asia, therefore they are asian lol. the funniest part is people seeing audacity in europeans having european words to describe things. why would you ask someone from a non european place if they're (insert european name for a place here) and let their "no" answer be the truth on a european language? if there was a people from antarctica (who spoke Antartican) who's word for the americas was "Lork" and whose word for that which comes only from virginia and further north was "Frithian", then it would not make sense, when determining what the proper Antartican word for a Mexican is, to ask Oscar De La Hoya if he's a Lorkan and let that be the deciding factor. that being said, i'll call people whatever they want to be called, within reason. if someone wants to be called a "Chimbaroonan" instead of a Greek, i'll call the damn Greek a "Chimbaroonan" lol. but i'm not going to concede that people from Asia aren't Asian. that's utterly stupid.


>asian-american was created by people like me-asians so dont
>trip if a group of people don't want to be called by an
>archaic term made up by ethno-centric europeans.

europeans made up every word in a european language. ayeayeaye.

PS: i'm not tripping, and i haven't used the term "oriental" in some time, and don't mind people asking not to be called that. my BIG issue is the way people ended up replacing it with "Asian", thus totally destroying logic in the name of some silly game.

>>nah the word "oriental" was created by Europeans, but it was
>>comes from the word "orient" to orient oneself. so what it
>>really relates to is a perspective of being the center, such
>>as europeans thought europe was the center of the world.
>
>i disagree with this conclusion. to orient oneself with that
>which is outside, does not imply that you think you're the
>center of the world. the word "oriental" is a part of a
>language of a people (england), for whom everything outside
>of europe IS outside of their origin. it makes perfect sense
>for someone from house A to look at the houses around them
>and say "these houses are outside and around us" without
>thinking that their own house is the center of the town.

I never think of my house as the center of town. if you dont realize that you are a piece of a bigger whole you have a narrow ignorant view of the world and ignorance leads to fear, it leads to negative stereotypes. That is a completely stupid argument.
>
>It does if you know anything about history. Europeans created the idea of the "savage" anything not white and "pure." Thus oriental became associated with these negative connotations of savage, non-intellectual. Those negative connotations carried over into north america in the 1800's and 1900's as the influx of asian peoples in the americas. Im half japanese but most white people I know wouldnt be able to tell what ethnicity I am and they probably refer to me as that asian or oriental person. think about it, if youre a white person do people think of you as an irish man? a polish man? etc? no they say american person. but really your roots are from the continent of europe just as my mothers are from the continent of asia. I dont understand whats "silly" about replacing "oriental" with "asian." Why are you tripping about that? You didnt really explain.
>
>>it has those negative connotations such "slanted" which means
>>not straight, i.e. not normal. Oriental relates to that
>>foreign, not normal, Im half japanese and I've never called
>>myself oriental, and oh ya, middle easterners are not asian,
>>nor do they call themselves asian. india and iraq are not
>>both asian. Osama bin laden is not asian I dont think anyone
>>besides you thinks he is.
>
>they are from asia, therefore they are asian lol. the
>funniest part is people seeing audacity in europeans having
>european words to describe things. why would you ask someone
>from a non european place if they're (insert european name
>for a place here) and let their "no" answer be the truth on
>a european language? if there was a people from antarctica
>(who spoke Antartican) who's word for the americas was
>"Lork" and whose word for that which comes only from
>virginia and further north was "Frithian", then it would not
>make sense, when determining what the proper Antartican word
>for a Mexican is, to ask Oscar De La Hoya if he's a Lorkan
>and let that be the deciding factor. that being said, i'll
>call people whatever they want to be called, within reason.
>if someone wants to be called a "Chimbaroonan" instead of a
>Greek, i'll call the damn Greek a "Chimbaroonan" lol. but
>i'm not going to concede that people from Asia aren't Asian.
>that's utterly stupid.
>
WHat? what the hell are you trying to say? This has political implications that is the point you are missing with the creation of the term "asian-american." You really need to read up on the civil rights movement. It involved other people besides just blacks. Oscar De La Hoya is never going to call himself a lorkan. you're doing some hypothetical unbelievable situation theory. oh and asia is a different continent than the continent that iraq is on. Osama Bin Laden is saudi arabian I believe and no saudis think of themself as asian, trust me.
>
>>asian-american was created by people like me-asians so dont
>>trip if a group of people don't want to be called by an
>>archaic term made up by ethno-centric europeans.
>
>europeans made up every word in a european language.
>ayeayeaye.

what?
>
>PS: i'm not tripping, and i haven't used the term "oriental"
>in some time, and don't mind people asking not to be called
>that. my BIG issue is the way people ended up replacing it
>with "Asian", thus totally destroying logic in the name of
>some silly game.
What? silly game? thats what the civil rights movement was to you? my parents were involved in it and my mother contributed to that movement to create the term so shut the fuck up. Your argument is completely stupid. This has political motives, motives meant to combat negative stereotypes directly associated with the term "oriental." This is the point you don't get. Realize this and move on.

>>>nah the word "oriental" was created by Europeans, but it was
>>>comes from the word "orient" to orient oneself. so what it
>>>really relates to is a perspective of being the center, such
>>>as europeans thought europe was the center of the world.
>>
>>i disagree with this conclusion. to orient oneself with that
>>which is outside, does not imply that you think you're the
>>center of the world. the word "oriental" is a part of a
>>language of a people (england), for whom everything outside
>>of europe IS outside of their origin. it makes perfect sense
>>for someone from house A to look at the houses around them
>>and say "these houses are outside and around us" without
>>thinking that their own house is the center of the town.
>
>I never think of my house as the center of town. if you dont
>realize that you are a piece of a bigger whole you have a
>narrow ignorant view of the world and ignorance leads to
>fear, it leads to negative stereotypes. That is a completely
>stupid argument.

when did i say anything positive about thinking of your house as the center of town. i said RESIDENTS of a particular house look at the houses around them as being "the houses around them" and THEN i SPECIFICALLY said that it does NOT mean they think they're the center of town, just because they refer to the houses outside and around them as the houses outside and around them. damn read better.

>>It does if you know anything about history. Europeans created >the idea of the "savage" anything not white and "pure." Thus >oriental became associated with these negative connotations of >savage, non-intellectual.

well, so basically what you're saying is when a european-language-speaking person uses a european word, they're promoting things europeans did and therefore, even when speaking english, should not use the words the english used for things. ???

>I dont understand whats "silly" about replacing "oriental" >with "asian." Why are you tripping about that? You didnt really >explain.

think about it for 2 seconds without getting emotional.


>oh and asia is a
>different continent than the continent that iraq is on.

end of discussion.

the literal root meaning of orient is to rise, as in the sun rising... so it came to be used to refer to the east, where the sun rises. Same as how the word Japan came from the Chinese word for origin of the sun/land of the rising sun or whatever.

As for thinking you're the center of the world and everyone else is a savage, the Chinese call their country the Middle Kingdom, correct? And historically referred to other peoples/cultures as barbarians, right? Europeans aren't the only ones who do this (or even the first ones, for that matter).

That being said, yeah, the context in which the term oriental has been used is troublesome.

--------------------------------------
"If your music was any good it would've
been stolen by the white man by now."

- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog

I agree that "asian" doesn't work because (OK... i'm admit that this is a very bad example i'm about to use, but it cropped up recently) it's not specific - say a news report tells the public to be on the look out for a gang of "asian" criminals... are we looking for chinese dudes or indian? they look completely different

secondly, wasn't "asia" invented by British immigration authorities who couldn't be bothered stamping a separate name for the many regions of the east(ern Empire)?

political correctness... you can hardly keep up with it

>
>secondly, wasn't "asia" invented by British immigration
>authorities who couldn't be bothered stamping a separate
>name for the many regions of the east(ern Empire)?
>
It might have been created then but it wasnt used by anyone else until the 60s and 70's

>political correctness... you can hardly keep up with it

it has nothing to do with political correctness. it just has to do with being accutate. I dont want no one calling me something Im not. I think most people can agree on that. whenever white people start talking about race the term "political correctness" just pops out of their mouth so they dont have to deal with talking about race becuase it totally undermines their power in society. If you don't understand something its easier to dismiss it as being "politically correct."

the whole point is that "oriental" goes much further to physically describing someone than "asian" does

the two words are not equivalent

and as to "what they accurately want to be called" - which IS political correctness as far as I'm aware - the reasons are baffling and the outcome creates problems

could say south asian in referring to suspects that may appear to be from india. oriental is even more vague, dated, and inflexible than being more geographic with asian and adding south, southeast, etc.

people just tend to rebel against vestiges of colonialism, especially with more common sense alternatives available.



----------------------------

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_gallery.htm


''Ang hindi marunong lumingon
sa pinanggalingan, hindi
makakarating sa
pinaroroonan.'' Those who
cannot see where they came
from will never get to where
they are going.
-Jose Rizal

although "south asian" etc do require a bit of geographical knowledge that not everyone has...

however, I don't see how "asian" is free of colonial implications, or how "oriental" is loaded with them when most people say it

>although "south asian" etc do require a bit of geographical
>knowledge that not everyone has...

well i can't be responsible for "everyone's" ignorance. south asian/geographic terms are a mad basic way to approach this. people who represent "the other" are always given the responsiblity to educate the ignorant... cats got to search and be accountable for what they bring to the table. this thread is kinda like "school me, then watch as i attempt to undermine what you bring to me"- arrogance and condescension.


>
>however, I don't see how "asian" is free of colonial
>implications, or how "oriental" is loaded with them when
>most people say it


yes the word asia may have been created by europeans, and yes using it could be participating in colonialism to some extent. we don't live in a theoretical vacuum.

that said, it's far easier to use south/east/west/central asian to describe people if one's unsure. when you want to know if someone is filipino or chinese or whatever, ask them. are they ethnically filipino (which is very diverse in itself) and/or indigenous filipino, a citizen of the philippines, or were they or their parent from there? btw the chinese have been in philippine society for centuries giving you an idea of how deep it gets when trying to be precise, and getting nationality confused with ethnic identification.

when you don't know where someone of asian descent is "from", you can get above most layers of colonialism by going to the more or less globally recognized geographic/continental name for their region.











----------------------------

www.summerproleague.com/photo
_gallery.htm


''Ang hindi marunong lumingon
sa pinanggalingan, hindi
makakarating sa
pinaroroonan.'' Those who
cannot see where they came
from will never get to where
they are going.
-Jose Rizal

dont you think asian has more geographical and religous connotations than does "oriental" esp if u distinguish between
Asians, Melanesians, Micronesians, Polynesians and Arabs. they all have they're own regional organisations and simillarities in language, food and culture.

and as for distinguishing nationalities. if cnn had said an "african gang" - would u kno if they were ghanain, nigerian, zimbabwean. . . .

>the whole point is that "oriental" goes much further to
>physically describing someone than "asian" does

Oriental does not go further in physically describing someone. How? Oriental connotes a stereotype, something false an untruth. You need to explain your reasoning or else you just come across vague like "oriental."
>
>the two words are not equivalent
>
>and as to "what they accurately want to be called" - which
>IS political correctness as far as I'm aware - the reasons
>are baffling and the outcome creates problems

NO ITS NOT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS TO WANT TO BE CALLED SOMETHING. HOW THE FUCK IS THAT? All your doing is undermining our power. I am asian, you call me asian. I aint oriental, that word doesnt describe in the least so shut the fuck up with your political correctness rants. you just proved my point, when a white guy like yourself doesnt understand something they start spouting our "political correctness, political correctness, im a mad white guy, I dont understand all this race stuff. cant we all just be one color?" huh? thats what you think right? reasons are baffling huh? then what are the reasons? I just broke them down to you. The outcome creates problems? what problems? Im much more happy being called asian than oriental. thats not a problem for me. maybe for "baffled" dumbasses as yourself. Read a book kid.

firstly,
-I can't tell the difference between Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, Vietnamese (and others) people readily, they have a similar skin tone (and other physical features)
-I can't tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani people, they have a similar skin tone (and other physical features)
-The two groups mentioned above, however, ARE distinctive from eachother
-So it's a problem if you use the same term "asian" for both of them

secondly,
-I said "political correctness" is calling people what they want to be called
-you said political correctness is just some term white people use to dismiss stuff, and that you should call people what they want to be called.
-Does that seem somewhat circular to you?

thirdly,
You DIDN'T break down what's wrong with "oriental"... other than you don't want to be called it. And if you maintain that you did, I ask you to repeat it for my sake

fourthly,
I wouldn't call someone something they didn't like, to their face
but if I've got an acquaintence from India and a friend from China, except I don't know their exact nationalities, then I am going to say "asian" and "oriental" to describe them (or maybe far-eastern or east easian interchangably)

>firstly,
>-I can't tell the difference between Korean, Chinese,
>Japanese, Tibetan, Vietnamese (and others) people readily,
>they have a similar skin tone (and other physical features)

THATS NOT MY FAULT. LIKE RAWSOUTHPAW SAID IM NOT SUPPOSED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR IGNORANCE. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCES THEY'RE PRETTY OBVIOUS. WHITE PEOPLE HAVE THESE ETHNIC PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES TOO, JUST MOST WHITE PEOPLE DONT EVER THINK OF THEMSELVES AS DIFFERENT, AS ABNORMAL, AS MOST PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE FORCED TO AT A VERY YOUNG AGE THEREFORE WE ARE VERY AWARE AND SENSITIVE TO PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES. SINCE DAY ONE I HAVE BEEN VERY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT I AM DIFFERENT THAN MOST OTHER PEOPLE AROUND ME BECAUSE OF MY PHYISCAL DIFFERENCE, THAT IS SOMETHING WHITE PEOPLE RARELY HAVE TO FEEL BECAUSE THEY CAN GO MOST PLACES AND SEE THEMSELVES ALL AROUND THEM. TURN ON THE TV AND SEE SO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF WHITE PEOPLE. I TURN ON THE TV AND SEE ONLY A NARROW DEPICTION OF ASIAN MEN. WEAK, NON-ROMANTIC, KUNG-FU. WOW IM TOTALLY BREAKING THE DAMAJA APART.

>-I can't tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani
>people, they have a similar skin tone (and other physical
>features)
>-The two groups mentioned above, however, ARE distinctive
>from eachother
>-So it's a problem if you use the same term "asian" for both
>of them
>
STILL NOT MY PROBLEM, THATS YOUR PROBLEM. LEARN THE DIFFERENCES. LET IT BE A PROJECT OF YOURS.

>secondly,
>-I said "political correctness" is calling people what they
>want to be called
>-you said political correctness is just some term white
>people use to dismiss stuff, and that you should call people
>what they want to be called.
>-Does that seem somewhat circular to you?

UH... LET ME SEE..NO! NO AND NO! CIRCULAR THINKING IS ONE PERSON MAKING A STATEMENT THEN EXPLAINING REASONS LEADING TO A POINT THAT CONCLUDE WITH THIS FIRST STATEMENT. I HAVE REFUTED YOUR DEFINITION OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, OUR POINTS NEVER MEET, HENCE NO CIRLCE. YOU'VE SEEN A CIRCLE RIGHT? ITS ONE LINE THAT CONNECTS TO ITS 2 POINTS. IF YOU NEED AN EXAMPLE OF CIRCULAR THINKING WATCH ANY BUSH SPEECH. YOU'LL SEE PLENTY EXAMPLES OF CIRCULAR THINKING. ARE YOU A FRESMAN IN COLLEGE, WHITE, TRYING TO RESIST ALL THAT REFUTES THE NOTION THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT, THE CENTER OF THE WORLD, ETC? YOU'RE LOSING THE COUNTRY RIGHT?
>
>thirdly,
>You DIDN'T break down what's wrong with "oriental"... other
>than you don't want to be called it. And if you maintain
>that you did, I ask you to repeat it for my sake

HERE IT IS, READY, READING?? "ORIENTAL" MEANS SAVAGE, MYSTERIOUS, CHING-CHONG, GONGS, OPIUM BROTHELS, KUNG-FU, IMPOTENT, WEAK, MUTE, SLANTED EYES, ABNORMAL, NON-INTELLECTUAL, ALL INSTINCUAL, SENSUAL, RELATING TO ANIMALISTIC BEHAVIORS ETC. ALL NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES. READ THE BOOK THAT PINK PANTHO STATES IN THE NEXT POST. IT WILL ENLIGHTEN YOU SO YOU CAN STOP POSTING IGNORANT MESSAGES ABOUT THE WORD"ORIENTAL."
>
>fourthly,
>I wouldn't call someone something they didn't like, to their
>face
>but if I've got an acquaintence from India and a friend from
>China, except I don't know their exact nationalities, then I
>am going to say "asian" and "oriental" to describe them (or
>maybe far-eastern or east easian interchangably)

WHY DONT YOU USE THEIR NAMES TO DESCRIBE THEM. OR YOU COULD JUST SAY INDIAN AND CHINESE. IS THAT TOO HARD? ASIAN IS A BLANKET TERM TO DESCRIBE PEOPLE THAT COME FROM A CERTAIN REGION OF THE WORLD. I AM ASIAN, JAPANESE WHITE, FRENCH GERMAN, IRISH, AMERICAN ALL OF THESE THINGS. OH

5THLY
THE TERM "ASIAN-AMERICAN" IS USED TO CREATE POLITICAL POWER, TO INSTILL SELF-ESTEEM, TO FEEL APART OF SOMETHING FINALLY, TO NOT FEEL ABNORMAL OR THE "OTHER" OR "ORIENTAL." YOU SEEM TO BE VERY IGNORANT OF ASIAN-AMERICANS, OF POLITICALLY PROGRESSIVE ASIAN-AMERICANS. PLEASE ALLOW YOURSELF TO LEARN. YOUR'E THE ONE WHO ASKED A QUESTION, REMEMBER. I ASSUME YOU WANTED AN ANSWER OR MAYBE YOU JUST WANTED TO SAY POLITICAL CORRECTNESS A MILLION TIMES TO PROVE THAT ASIAN AMERICAN IS NOT REAL AND ORIENTAL IS THE TRUE ACCURATE WORD TO DESCRIBE A PEOPLE. SORRY YOUR'E WRONG DAMAJA. OHH

6THLY
DONT USE THAT NAME "DAMAJA" ITS A BITE AND A DISGRACE TO JERU. YOUR'E FAR MORE IGNORANT THAN HE IS.

>>firstly,
>>-I can't tell the difference between Korean, Chinese,
>>Japanese, Tibetan, Vietnamese (and others) people readily,
>>they have a similar skin tone (and other physical features)
>
>THATS NOT MY FAULT. LIKE RAWSOUTHPAW SAID IM NOT SUPPOSED TO
>BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR IGNORANCE. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCES
>THEY'RE PRETTY OBVIOUS. WHITE PEOPLE HAVE THESE ETHNIC
>PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES TOO, JUST MOST WHITE PEOPLE DONT EVER
>THINK OF THEMSELVES AS DIFFERENT, AS ABNORMAL, AS MOST
>PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE FORCED TO AT A VERY YOUNG AGE THEREFORE
>WE ARE VERY AWARE AND SENSITIVE TO PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES.
>SINCE DAY ONE I HAVE BEEN VERY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT I AM
>DIFFERENT THAN MOST OTHER PEOPLE AROUND ME BECAUSE OF MY
>PHYISCAL DIFFERENCE, THAT IS SOMETHING WHITE PEOPLE RARELY
>HAVE TO FEEL BECAUSE THEY CAN GO MOST PLACES AND SEE
>THEMSELVES ALL AROUND THEM. TURN ON THE TV AND SEE SO MANY
>DIFFERENT KINDS OF WHITE PEOPLE. I TURN ON THE TV AND SEE
>ONLY A NARROW DEPICTION OF ASIAN MEN. WEAK, NON-ROMANTIC,
>KUNG-FU. WOW IM TOTALLY BREAKING THE DAMAJA APART.
>

No... if I go to China, I don't expect anyone to be able to tell if I'm British, Irish, French, German, American, Australian, Scandinavian, Slavic, Russian...


>>-I can't tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani
>>people, they have a similar skin tone (and other physical
>>features)
>>-The two groups mentioned above, however, ARE distinctive
>>from eachother
>>-So it's a problem if you use the same term "asian" for both
>>of them
>>
>STILL NOT MY PROBLEM, THATS YOUR PROBLEM. LEARN THE
>DIFFERENCES. LET IT BE A PROJECT OF YOURS.

Actually... the whole gist of your argument is that my "ignorance" IS your problem


>
>>secondly,
>>-I said "political correctness" is calling people what they
>>want to be called
>>-you said political correctness is just some term white
>>people use to dismiss stuff, and that you should call people
>>what they want to be called.
>>-Does that seem somewhat circular to you?
>
>UH... LET ME SEE..NO! NO AND NO! CIRCULAR THINKING IS ONE
>PERSON MAKING A STATEMENT THEN EXPLAINING REASONS LEADING TO
>A POINT THAT CONCLUDE WITH THIS FIRST STATEMENT. I HAVE
>REFUTED YOUR DEFINITION OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, OUR POINTS
>NEVER MEET, HENCE NO CIRLCE. YOU'VE SEEN A CIRCLE RIGHT? ITS
>ONE LINE THAT CONNECTS TO ITS 2 POINTS. IF YOU NEED AN
>EXAMPLE OF CIRCULAR THINKING WATCH ANY BUSH SPEECH. YOU'LL
>SEE PLENTY EXAMPLES OF CIRCULAR THINKING. ARE YOU A FRESMAN
>IN COLLEGE, WHITE, TRYING TO RESIST ALL THAT REFUTES THE
>NOTION THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT, THE CENTER OF THE WORLD,
>ETC? YOU'RE LOSING THE COUNTRY RIGHT?
>>

look up "political correctness" in the dictionary and it will say something like "using terms which are acceptable to those being referred to"
that's what people mean when they talk about political correctness


>>thirdly,
>>You DIDN'T break down what's wrong with "oriental"... other
>>than you don't want to be called it. And if you maintain
>>that you did, I ask you to repeat it for my sake
>
>HERE IT IS, READY, READING?? "ORIENTAL" MEANS SAVAGE,
>MYSTERIOUS, CHING-CHONG, GONGS, OPIUM BROTHELS, KUNG-FU,
>IMPOTENT, WEAK, MUTE, SLANTED EYES, ABNORMAL,
>NON-INTELLECTUAL, ALL INSTINCUAL, SENSUAL, RELATING TO
>ANIMALISTIC BEHAVIORS ETC. ALL NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES. READ
>THE BOOK THAT PINK PANTHO STATES IN THE NEXT POST. IT WILL
>ENLIGHTEN YOU SO YOU CAN STOP POSTING IGNORANT MESSAGES
>ABOUT THE WORD"ORIENTAL."
>>

it does? lol I've never noticed any of those connotations, but if you say so


>>fourthly,
>>I wouldn't call someone something they didn't like, to their
>>face
>>but if I've got an acquaintence from India and a friend from
>>China, except I don't know their exact nationalities, then I
>>am going to say "asian" and "oriental" to describe them (or
>>maybe far-eastern or east easian interchangably)
>
>WHY DONT YOU USE THEIR NAMES TO DESCRIBE THEM. OR YOU COULD
>JUST SAY INDIAN AND CHINESE.

i said if I didn't KNOW their nationality

IS THAT TOO HARD? ASIAN IS A
>BLANKET TERM TO DESCRIBE PEOPLE THAT COME FROM A CERTAIN
>REGION OF THE WORLD. I AM ASIAN, JAPANESE WHITE, FRENCH
>GERMAN, IRISH, AMERICAN ALL OF THESE THINGS. OH
>
>5THLY
>THE TERM "ASIAN-AMERICAN" IS USED TO CREATE POLITICAL POWER,
>TO INSTILL SELF-ESTEEM, TO FEEL APART OF SOMETHING FINALLY,
>TO NOT FEEL ABNORMAL OR THE "OTHER" OR "ORIENTAL." YOU SEEM
>TO BE VERY IGNORANT OF ASIAN-AMERICANS, OF POLITICALLY
>PROGRESSIVE ASIAN-AMERICANS. PLEASE ALLOW YOURSELF TO LEARN.
>YOUR'E THE ONE WHO ASKED A QUESTION, REMEMBER. I ASSUME YOU
>WANTED AN ANSWER OR MAYBE YOU JUST WANTED TO SAY POLITICAL
>CORRECTNESS A MILLION TIMES TO PROVE THAT ASIAN AMERICAN IS
>NOT REAL AND ORIENTAL IS THE TRUE ACCURATE WORD TO DESCRIBE
>A PEOPLE. SORRY YOUR'E WRONG DAMAJA. OHH
>

look... (i'm not American)... all I know is that for years I've been saying "oriental" without meaning it in any negative way, primarily to communicate that I'm talking about a Chinese/Japanese/Korean person and not an Indian/Pakistani person. And now, all of a sudden, some authority on political correctness informs me that I've got to stop using that word. I mean I would never even know if I didn't log onto Okayplayer. It just seems ridiculous


>6THLY
>DONT USE THAT NAME "DAMAJA" ITS A BITE AND A DISGRACE TO
>JERU. YOUR'E FAR MORE IGNORANT THAN HE IS.

*shrug*I'm not the one sitting on a barbarian chair with rastafarian hair

>No... if I go to China, I don't expect anyone to be able to
>tell if I'm British, Irish, French, German, American,
>Australian, Scandinavian, Slavic, Russian...

thank you. lol the funny part about all this (and one of the main reasons i brought this all up) is the fact that, by choosing to replace "oriental" with "asian" those same people who think it's wrong to see the distinguishing similarities between those certain people...are...ummm....doing JUST THAT lol. just switching the word to another inadequate word. this is why it's so silly and absurd.

OMG what are you talking about? You make no sense. I dont even understand what your point is? I cant find it? the bottom line is that word is backwards, outdated and completely inaccurate. So that is the final word on it. I really tried to find your point but I still cant. silly? if someone doesnt like being called a certain word to identify them dont you think they would come up with another word that is not offensive and connotates negative stereotypes and is from them by them? I think that makes sense and isnt at all silly.

>silly? if
>someone doesnt like being called a certain word to identify
>them dont you think they would come up with another word
>that is not offensive and connotates negative stereotypes
>and is from them by them? I think that makes sense and isnt
>at all silly.

the idea of replacing an offensive word with a better word isn't silly. when i'm saying "silly" i'm referring to the the fact that choosing a piss-poor word to replace a previous poor word is silly. why not come up with a word that means "that which and those whom derive from the PART (yes PART) of asia people wrongly called oriental"?

if you're trying to describe the very similar people and cultures of greece, italy, france, spain, and portugal and you're NOT talking about people from sweden, germany, or ireland, you don't say "european".

_________________________

*TWINNING*

You should find an answer there. Its a huge argument that basically claims that the origins of the words "orient" and "occident" were based on completely inaccurate characterisations of savegery versus civility, barbarism versus enlightenment.

has nobody here effing read Said's work? No wonder the cluelessness on the topic!

I think people have reponded in depth to the first part of your question about the historical significance of the word Oriental.

The second part of your question concering the term "Asian" brings up issues as to whether any word can accurately describe and be inclusive of all people in the Asian continent. The answer is no. However this problem isn't just limited to Asia. Africa and Europe are also diverse continents in which simply refering to someone as African or European doesn't fit. (New World Latin America is a little different due to more cultural uniformity created by the Spanish colonizers and genocide of Native peoples and their culture). With that said, I think the word Asian should be used at the most surface level when you want to refer to somoene from the Asian continent. Connecting it to culture, identity, etc. is very problematic. Even if you refer to someone by their nationality (as another response mentioned) it is still not enough because nations are also very culturally and linguistically diverse. I think it's part of the Western mind, the need to have to categorize everything. And as is evident today, it's proven impossible to come up with appropiate terms to categorize human diversity whether on the basis of "race", culture, language, ethnicity, etc (insert arbitrary category here).

the word "asian" is being used in the SAME EXACT way the word "oriental" was used by the average cat. "asian" IS a word that describes all people from asia, so you do have a word for that. however, when the particular collection of cultures formerly known to most as "oriental" became THE asians, it did nothing to stop lumping them together, and just did it with yet another inadequate word. my main issue with all this really has hardly anything to do with the removal of "oriental". it has to do with the act of putting "asian" in it's place. and i'm not deeply hurt, i just brought it up because i think it's absurd.

I guess it's a word that is representative of non-white, non-black, non-hispanic people who come from the continent of Asia. It's stupid to really tell people what you are when your Asian and they aren't. When I talk to other Asian people, we tell each other what we are...Korean, Chinese, whatever cause WE know we are different but no one else cares so you just sum it up with Asian to keep it simple for the simpletons.

Does the "Orient" exist? And it's East of what? East of the West?

first of all, i really could care less whether oriental stays or goes. if people are offended, even if i don't see the logic, i don't feel i HAVE to see the logic to stop saying it...but...that's why i brought this topic up: i don't want to say oriental, but i REALLY don't want to say asian because:

>When I talk to other Asian
>people, we tell each other what we are...Korean, Chinese,
>whatever cause WE know we are different but no one else
>cares so you just sum it up with Asian to keep it simple for
>the simpletons.

notice how you didn't say "Iraqi, Russian, Indian" in the list. and i'd be willing to bet, if you kept going, you would have said thing mmore along the lines of "Vietnamese, Cambodian, Japanese, etc". it is a simpleton thing to act like there isn't something linking all these people that is distinguishable from the rest of the world (including other parts of the continent of asia). it is also a simpleton thing to never want to know more about an individual's particular heritage beyond that, i'd agree. however, in discussion (as you've exhibited), sometimes the word to describe all of these linked peoples has to exist to complete a sentence. the word Asian does a piss poor job of that, because Asia is a place with many people who DON'T share the qualities of so-called "Asians".

>
>Does the "Orient" exist? And it's East of what? East of
>the West?

>first of all, i really could care less whether oriental
>stays or goes. if people are offended, even if i don't see
>the logic, i don't feel i HAVE to see the logic to stop
>saying it...but...that's why i brought this topic up: i
>don't want to say oriental, but i REALLY don't want to say
>asian because:
>
>>When I talk to other Asian
>>people, we tell each other what we are...Korean, Chinese,
>>whatever cause WE know we are different but no one else
>>cares so you just sum it up with Asian to keep it simple for
>>the simpletons.
>
>notice how you didn't say "Iraqi, Russian, Indian" in the
>list. and i'd be willing to bet, if you kept going, you
>would have said thing mmore along the lines of "Vietnamese,
>Cambodian, Japanese, etc". it is a simpleton thing to act
>like there isn't something linking all these people that is
>distinguishable from the rest of the world (including other
>parts of the continent of asia). it is also a simpleton
>thing to never want to know more about an individual's
>particular heritage beyond that, i'd agree. however, in
>discussion (as you've exhibited), sometimes the word to
>describe all of these linked peoples has to exist to
>complete a sentence. the word Asian does a piss poor job of
>that, because Asia is a place with many people who DON'T
>share the qualities of so-called "Asians".

Who are so-called "Asians." Turkey is asia? your coming up with some very un-defined definitions. who says turkey is part of asian? who are so-called asia? you seem to be very vague with every question and answer you give on here. you're like a lot of people when they start talking about race they have in the inability to be specific. you never say anything remotely specific or sociologically backed-up? Come on now,.... "so-called Asians." I dont know who these people are. you cant explain yourself, what you are talking about. just accept that some people liked to be called asian americans. no one word ever accurately describes someone. the only way you learn about a culture or people is to meet them. Asian is a million times more accurate and non-offensive than oriental. just accept that. you are looking for specificity but you are never specific with your arguments. ???? Look at this---Asian > Oriental. get it? way better than oriental, way better. no one word is going to specifically describe someone, and no one is understandable from a term. Nor are people completely culturally monolithic.the world is complex, theres hella chinese living in mexico. Im half japanese and half white. most of this planet is going to be racially and ethnically mixed really soon.
>
>>
>>Does the "Orient" exist? And it's East of what? East of
>>the West?

>Who are so-called "Asians."

Asians are people from any part of Asia. English 101. now, so-called "Asians" are a collection of similar people who are very distinct from other people of the continant Asia, but have claimed the title "Asian" solely for themselves in a sloppy not-thought-out attempt to quickly replace a previous word that turned out to be offensive.


>Turkey is asia?

yes. http://www.allaboutturkey.com/cografya.htm

>your coming up
>with some very un-defined definitions.

no, i'm referring to ACTUAL Geographical definitions. there is a continent called Asia. this continent is HUGE. therefore, calling anything "Asian" is either going to be very very vague otherwise it's not going to be very accurate. it's very simple if you study a map. there is Asia, Europe, Australia, North America, South America, Africa, and Antartica. countries in Asia are Asian.

>vague with every question and answer you give on here.

how? its very very very clear. Asian is anything from ASIA. NOT JUST vietnamese, chinese, japanese, etc. that's not vague, it's accurate.

>no one word ever accurately describes someone.

not true. no one word ever FULLY describes someone, i'll give you that. however, if you can't see the similarities between people of Japan and people of Korea that is different from people anywhere else in the world, including india, russia, isreal, etc, then you're just playing dumb. because you would not refer to an isreali as "Asian", which means you DO see the things that tie the people of Thailand and Japan. it's not completely specific but a word to describe that a group of peoples IS useful and not bad. for example: Nordic. Nordic refers to all sorts of different people, but if you're not specifically just talking about swedish people but you're talking about all kinds of similar people in a somewhat larger scope of swedish, norwegian, german, etc, you have a word to use (Nordic).

>the only way you learn about a culture or people is to meet
>them. Asian is a million times more accurate and
>non-offensive than oriental.

it may be less offensive but it's also less accurate (as oriental refers to where the sun rises aka "far east", which is also offensive to many, and Asian refers to that which is of a continent that stretches from just a tad east of Greece to Japan). once again, this isn't about keeping oriental, it's about replacing it with something half-way sensible. Asian is so much more vague than you're admitting.

back home if we say 'asian' we mean japanese, korean and chinese only

south-east asian for vietnamese, indonesian vietnamese, etc

and Indian for Indian people. it's a big country and you can tell what they look like

then; pacific islanders and middle eastern people are seperate as well.

ha, i impressed a Thai dude the other night cos i could tell he was Thai, he was like 'my god, how did you know?' ..it's not that hard, but being where i'm from helped i guess. we're close to asia, i've travelled there a few times

but in the UK, they use 'asian' to mean anyone from turkey(!) to japan, which is just lazy

and the fucking pacific peoples getting called 'asian' by you lazy americans???? whatdafuck is that about???

you think king kapisi is asian?
http://www.lucire.net/images/031020-brockie-urale.jpg

and brotha d? ASIAN???? the fuck????
http://www.cube.org.nz/photos/judeg_brotha_d.jpg

dei hamo??? ASIAN???
http://www.hiphopnz.com/summit/deihamo.jpg


seriously, if you called any of these guys 'asian' to their face, you better start running. that's not what they are, it's not what they call themselves, and they're from the Pacific (aka the continent Oceania), not from Asia. that's just plain cultural laziness right there

using the word "asian" as a word that describes anyone/anything from Asia lazy? it's accurate. and lol@calling out the english on their use of the english language.

if they're from the Pacific, call them PI (Pacific Islander)

if they're from Turkey; Turkish

if you don't know where they're from, or if it's like, a census or something, it can be used-- as long as they're from Asia, not the Middle East, not Oceania, but Asia.

here's an accurate map:
http://www.ida.net/users/pbmck/xsovnuc/maps/asia.gif

excluding russia, the countries on that map make up Asia. it doesn't include turkey, saudi arabia, iraq, iran, syria, israel, etc- or fiji, hawaii, samoa, new caledonia, micronesia, new zealand, tuvalu, french polynesia, cook islands, etc etc etc. NONE of these places are in Asia, and none of these people should be called 'Asian'. hence, the 'lazy' accusation.

it's not that complicated, is it? people from asia, are Asian. people from polynesia are polynesian, people from the middle east are middle eastern. it's even better if you know the country, of course. but hey.

DOES include turkey, etc

that makes sense. cos u've got the asians and pacific islanders and they're distinctively different, as are the arabs.


He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
-- George Bernard Shaw: Caesar, in Caesar and Cleopatra, act 2


"My face don't belong in The Source
It belongs on the shroud of turin, for certain"
- canibus

>back home if we say 'asian' we mean japanese, korean and
>chinese only
>
>south-east asian for vietnamese, indonesian vietnamese, etc
>
>and Indian for Indian people. it's a big country and you can
>tell what they look like

Well asian in general in the US includes south-east asians, but not Indians/Pakistanis.

>and the fucking pacific peoples getting called 'asian' by
>you lazy americans???? whatdafuck is that about???

That's not really done actually, they're referred to as pacific islanders rather than asian. But aside from Hawaiians, most Americans would probably just call them Samoan, whether they're specifically Samoan or not. Like those guys you showed, most Americans would call them Samoan, nobody would call them asian.

--------------------------------------
"If your music was any good it would've
been stolen by the white man by now."

- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog

Asia was the Greek name for the region to the east of the Aegean sea. For the Romans it referred to a specific province of the empire with its capital at Pergamos. Etymologically it probably derives from the Semetic root "Asu" meaning "to rise", I.E. EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE WORD "ORIENT", just from a Semetic rather than Latin root.

So if you are offended by the word Orient because of its Eurocentric origin, than Asia is just as offensive. In fact more so, because at least Orient was always a general term for the east, whereas Asia was a specific term that referred exclusively to a small portion of modern day Turkey, that happened to be immediately to the east of the easternmost Ionian Greek city states. It's the equivalent of naming North America "Manhattan" because that's the first place you reach if you go west from Long Island.

Of course, the origin of the words is unimportant. What matters is that TODAY the Orient refers to China-Korea-Japan, and Asia to the entire continent. So to use the latter as an adjective when you mean *only* the former is not only unnecessarily confusing but just straight up wrong. If you do wish to include absolutely the whole continent, "Asian" is fine, but so broad a term that it becomes meaningless. Might as well describe something as "earthly".

Terms I think are specific enough to add useful meaning as an adjective:

Middle Eastern (Arab countries east of Lybia, Israel, Turkey, Iran)
Causasian (former Soviet republics in the Caucasus mountains)
Central Asian ("-istan" former Soviet republics + Afghanistan)
South Asian (all countries in SAARC)
South East Asian (all countries in ASEAN)
East Asian (China, Korea, Japan, Mongolia)

I consider some countries as belonging to more than one of these(eg Vietnam is both East & S.E. Asian) and some countries include provinces that belong to a different region than the country as a whole (eg Xinjiang province in China is Central Asian), but overall that list seems pretty straightforward.

I myself am Indonesian, and would prefer to be called South East Asian. In fact I would probably correct someone calling me "Asian".

thank you so much for being a sensible, knowledgable, logical person lol

finally someone who sees what i thought was obvious...and an Indonesian-blooded person at that!

i'm glad someone here sees my point and can refrain from calling me an ignorant yt long enough to think straight.

and btw, VERY well put. some interesting facts I didn't even know about. you learn something new all the time.

geez. no respect, i tells ya.

SAARC & ASEAN?

SAARC= South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation. that's India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan & Maledives

ASEAN = Association of South East Asian Nations. Burma, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Brunei, Phillipines, and East Timor soon if it hasn't joined already.

remember that. for now on, you're southeast asian to me.

ps: this may seem like a detail, but if someone referred to you as east asian (without the south) would they need to be corrected, or would you in a more general sense consider yourself east asian, then more specifically southeast asian?

well since you now know my actual nationality, I would prefer being called Indonesian!

Personally I always try to call people by nationalities if I know it or can confidently guess. I use my list of more general terms only as a last resort, or when I specifically want to draw attention to features shared by one region that distinguishes it from the rest of Asia (examples: South East Asian food, East Asian Buddhism, Central Asian mosque architecture).

Of course, I don't live in the US & I still have very close connections to my home country. If I was basically "assimilated" in America & had no connection with Indonesia except blood, I probalby wouldn't be so stuck on identifying with the nation rather than the region. But from what I gather Khmers, Hmong, Viets, Fillipinos in the States are still very proud of their own identities & don't really mix much with other South East Asian communities. I would suggest calling them by those seperate names. If you can't tell the difference, just ask. I'm sure the effort would be appreciated.

of course i'll call you by your nationality. my last question there was a hypothetical one. in other words, do you consider southeast asians to also be, in a broader sense east asian and then more specifically southeast asian or is southeast asian totally separate from east asian.

secondly, sometimes terms like "nordic", "mediterranean", "east asian", "middle eastern", "carribbean", "latin" etc are needed in speech. sometimes a person isn't speaking specifically of one single country, but rather people or things from a broader-but-connected-and-related region. i don't see anything wrong with that when it applies. obviously, when i'm talking to or about a specific individual, my goal is to know their nationality. but even then, if i don't know, and the person's not there, then i'd have no problem with someone saying "hey i was talking to Jon the other day? you know, that little mediterranean southern european looking guy there?" or if they're talking to me and they know my fam comes from the south of france and italy and we're talking about a greek person, and they say to me "you southern europeans are so..." that would only make sense because THAT's what we have in common. so i'm sure you understand why i'd want to know which words to use. there are times when a greater region or similar cultural group name is more appropriate than naming one specific country.

off the bat, let me make it clear that the words, in and of themselves have no significance. ALL minority groups have had overall name changes at different points in time, and still face INTRAGROUP struggles in terms of how to group identify, if at all. the level of significance these words tend to garner and the criteria by which they are judged as offensive or not has everything to historical context.

there's no traditional, simple a + b = c logic to the words and how or why they change over time when you look at the words in a vacuum.

not everyone seems to know this, so i thought i'd just say it for the record.

that said, here i go...

>but the only reasons i've ever heard beyond "oriental is a
>rug" (which obviously doesn't explain a damn thing since an
>oriental rug is called an oriental for a reason) was that "the
>term 'oriental' is a european word made to describe that which
>is not european"...ummm yes, english is a european language,
>so european languages can't have words that refer to things,
>even in english-language debates over english language usage
>judged and moderated by non europeans with charges of
>eurocentric speech? so THAT argument was either not made well
>at all to me or just doesn't make any sense.

i think you might be misinterpreting the argument. the argument as you laid out is weak. i mean, there's a genuine argument about the imposition of english/european names as an extension of colonialism, and the "eurocentrification" of non-european things and places (renaming mountain peaks and lakes in africa to reflect european presences, etc.)

but the more valid argument i've heard about "oriental" being a "european" is more about world view than it is about language. as you know, oriental means "eastern," and has the connotation of europe's centrality. yes, yes, the globe is round...so it doesn't *really* matter...and also there's the concept of the "occidental" and the "western world"...BUT those terms are used to describe places, not people.

bottomline, the idea of the "oriental" is a loaded, indellibly imperialist and white supremacist construct and has been outmoded as the world has become more sophitcated (scoff) in its understanding of differences between peoples.

that "oriental is a rug, not a person" speaks to the fact that at a certain point in time, people of asian descent decided that they'd no longer accept what they saw as an inherent objectification that was packed in with term "oriental."

divorcing personhood/humanity from thing or place was/is vital in combating racism and white supremacist/eurocentric constructs of "the other."

>the other objection that was never really spelled out to me,
>but i'm able to figure, is the idea of lumping everyone from
>koreans to japanese to cambodians to chinese etc into one word
>because of certain similarities it would seem have become
>politically incorrect to notice...YET, the word "oriental" has
>just been replaced with another word (asian) in order to refer
>to the same exact thing (everything that oriental was ever
>used for) just with different syllables.

many people find "asian american" or "asian" problematic as well. pacific islanders regularly to get recognition separate from "asians." people from asian countries who, in general, came to american as refugees don't share the same status as those who came, in general, educated, monied, and ready to capitalize on the u.s. booming technology industry in the mid-eighties and early nineties.

they certainly have no desire to be lumped in with the "model minorities."

there are lots of discussions going on all the time about the politics of identity and names.

every name will be problematic for one reason or another, either because it's too general, or too exclusive, become some find it offensive, and others find it liberatiing...etc. etc.

it's all a big headache, and while none of this is the sole reason oriental needs to be phased out or why it's considered offensive, it is one of many reasons why it's not a helpful term when trying to properly contextualize the group of people it's trying to label.

******************************

_____________________________

www.northernarc.net

she basically said "oriental" is loaded with white male eurocentric imperialist supremacy blablabla connotations, but didn't specify any more than those buzzwords

and again
and again
and again
then talk extensively about it outside of your narrow circle
then holla back
that miiiight help




----------------------------

www.summerproleague.com/photo
_gallery.htm


''Ang hindi marunong lumingon
sa pinanggalingan, hindi
makakarating sa
pinaroroonan.'' Those who
cannot see where they came
from will never get to where
they are

>but the more valid argument i've heard about "oriental" being
>a "european" is more about world view than it is about
>language. as you know, oriental means "eastern," and has the
>connotation of europe's centrality. yes, yes, the globe is
>round...so it doesn't *really* matter...and also there's the
>concept of the "occidental" and the "western world"...BUT
>those terms are used to describe places, not people.


I have often heard the words "Westerner" and "Western" used to describe people form Europe and America, both in English and Asian languages.

Also, the concept of east-west does not require any European centrality. Modern Mercator projection world maps (with the Greenwich Line as the Prime Meridian) may make it seem that way, but in origin the concept of "east" simply refers to the direction of the rising sun, which was the prime orientation (a word which literally means "to align oneself in the direction of the rising sun) for ALL human civilisations. Han China, Gupta India, as much as Roman Europe (and of course long before then).

And I'd just like to repeat that by the same criteria, the word "Asia" IS FAR MORE EUROCENTRIC. How did a small province on the eastern Aegean coastline(number 28 on this map http://intranet.dalton.org/groups/Rome/romemap5.GIF ) become the name for an entire continent? Only makes sense if you're sitting in Athens; at least the sun rises in the same direction wherever you are on planet earth.

>bottomline, the idea of the "oriental" is a loaded, indellibly
>imperialist and white supremacist construct and has been
>outmoded as the world has become more sophitcated (scoff) in
>its understanding of differences between peoples.
>
>that "oriental is a rug, not a person" speaks to the fact that
>at a certain point in time, people of asian descent decided
>that they'd no longer accept what they saw as an inherent
>objectification that was packed in with term "oriental."
>
>divorcing personhood/humanity from thing or place was/is vital
>in combating racism and white supremacist/eurocentric
>constructs of "the other."

well, I think "Oriental" is similar to "Negro", in that there isn't anything *inherently* bad or racist about the term (at least not like chink, gook, etc.), but just that it is old-fashioned, strongly associated with more racist times. And I agree that's reason enough to get rid of it. Asian has the advantage that it wasn't commonly used in the 19th century or earlier, so it doesn't have that history.

The problem is that used accurately Asian refers to a broader category than Oriental did (at least the way Oriental was used in the last few decades) so it annoys me to see it used as an exact equivalent.

That's why I suggest using "East Asian" if you want to refer to Chinese-Koreans-Japanese as a collectivity.

>The problem is that used accurately Asian refers to a broader
>category than Oriental did (at least the way Oriental was used
>in the last few decades) so it annoys me to see it used as an
>exact equivalent.
>
>That's why I suggest using "East Asian" if you want to refer
>to Chinese-Koreans-Japanese as a collectivity.

again, you're the only one who A: seems to get it, and B: actually offers a solution (East Asian).

My roommate hails from Hong Kong and says that Asian = "China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea". He doesn't classify Philipino or Vietnamese as Asian. I can't really make sense of that but I'm sure he's not the only one that thinks that way. There seems to be a heirarchy between them all.

From now on when I ask people where they're from I expect to hear where they were born not their heritage. It takes all this foolishness out of it.

world of difference



i swear, most of this board needs to go buy a round-the-world ticket.

hell, i guess most americans do, so you fellas aren't any exception..

Did you read what I just wrote? How can Vietnam not be Asian if it's more north than Singapore?

there's a heirarchy, it's not as simple as "here's the line, everyone south is SE Asian, north of it is proper asian"

same way that New Zealand is the most eastern country in the world but is considered part of the West. it's cultural divisions, not geographical ones, that matter more

hell, ask any indonesian what they think of the japanese, it'll be like asking a colombian what they think of americans..

it's confusing, but hey, it's a big world with some confusing rules

oh and sorry if i came off a bt terse in that other post, didn't mean to snap. i just, well, i've always believed that america would be a much better place if every citizen (especially those in the red states) had a compulsory 2 year 'overseas experience' once they left school. it'd help a helluva lot.

Ok then. He's right because he's actually from the continent and he's credible. But it's not right for you to assume that because the countries we're talking about are not in my backyard, it means I'm completely aloof to them. You don't know where I've been or where I'm planning to go. I simply raise the question because I like to be informed and know why things are the way they are. In Canada, the people I know who's background is Vietnamese or Philipino or Korean etc, identify themselves under one umbrella: Asian. Maybe it's to simplify things for us "ignorant North Americans" or maybe where you come from groups within this classification are not Westernized and still identify with their culture outside of the home setting. They don't encounter it the same way I did.

Usually when people emigrate from countries with numerous ethnic groups they find the common strand (i.e: India). Sometimes they don't express the things that make them different, whether that be language, religion unless you dig deeper and do some research. So when I saw Asian I saw it in the broad sense.

I would consider myself Asian American or Thai American.

The word oriental refers to objects not people. I'm not sure of the history of the word and how insulting it is. But just knowing that it is referred to objects and someone calling me oriental would make feel less of a person.

I would also say this is not a new phenomenon or just a recent discovery. As English becomes more and more common to Asians outside or within the states, self awareness and pride becomes easier to share with non-asians.

As far as who is Asian, this covers the middle east all the way to China. Of course, when you are talking about a large group of people with so many different complexions, religions, cultures, etc..., each group would like to be noticed for their differences. If you know the person's ethncity and can be specific, then do so.

I found an article and copied an excerpt from it:

http://www.modelminority.com/printout275.html


When used to describe inanimate objects, “oriental” is the appropriate adjective, such as “oriental rug” or “oriental jewelry.” In reference to the people and the culture, “oriental” is fraught with negative stereotypes ascribed to Asians by westerners.

“The word ‘oriental’ carries with it racist overtones and anyone who thinks that those offended by it are just hypersensitive do not understand the implications of what it means to be stereotyped,” Washington Rep. Velma Veloria told PNews. The Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language in its updated revised deluxe edition defines the term as “pertaining to or characteristic of the Orient or the East, belonging to a geographical division comprising Asia and the Malay archipelago or a native or inhabitant of the orient.” Printed in 1996, the entry does not indicate the term as offensive.

Originally meant “from the direction of the rising sun,” according to Shin, the term “has absorbed the connotations of centuries of colonialism and oppression.”

....see below.

since how long? Boston's Jam'n 94.5 has had a freakin puerto rican for...gee i donno but a while now

thats whats up!

but it isn't really too accurate. I'm from Pakistan so I guess it applies to me also if taken literally.

On a side note, "Asian" in the UK refers to Pakistanis/Indians/Bengalis rather than Chinese/Japanese/Koreans. Over there, I went to "Asian Night" at a club and it was all desi's there. I forget what they call Chinese/Japanese/Koreans there, I'd guess "East Asians"...