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Forum nameOkay Activist Archives
Topic subjectyou're either delusional, in denial, or willingly rejecting FACTS.
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=25992&mesg_id=26107
26107, you're either delusional, in denial, or willingly rejecting FACTS.
Posted by zewari, Tue Dec-21-04 02:31 PM
its your type of apathy and rejectionism that plagued Germany during the rise of the Nazi party.

>>>Firstly I simply dont believe a lot of this.
>>are you saying Israel never conducted eugenics experiments?
>>or Israel never aided apartheid S. Africa in its brutal
>>suppression of indigenous Africans? or Israel isn't playing
>>a prominent role in perpetuating the war in the central
>>Africa? or Israel isn't regulating the Palestinian
>>population to ghettos? or Israel isn't using chemical
>>weapons against the Palestinians?
>Thats exactly what I am saying.

You rejected Israel's close military and economic relations w/ the brutal apartheid South Africa regime. That alone is a mind-numbing rejection of established fact- one that no Israeli I've ever met went so far as to make. At worst case scenario, Israeli appologists cite reasons why Israel forged an alliance w/ the apartheid regime, when it was simply an example of how birds of a feather flock together.

Here is an excerpt from the U.S. Library of Congress Country Studies profile on South Africa regarding the relationship between its former apartheid government with Israel:

One of the most hidden but critical of South Africa's strategic relationships during the apartheid era was that with Israel, including both the Labor and the Likud governments. Israel officially opposed the apartheid system, but it also opposed broad international sanctions against Pretoria. For strategic reasons, much of the debate in Israeli government circles stressed coordinating ties to Pretoria within the framework of the tripartite relationship among Jerusalem, the United States (Israel's primary benefactor), and South Africa. Israel was also opposed to international embargoes in general, largely as a consequence of its own vulnerability to UN and other international sanctions.

South Africa and Israel had collaborated on military training, weapons development, and weapons production for years before broad sanctions were imposed in the late 1980s. Military cooperation continued despite the arms embargo and other trade restrictions imposed by the United States and much of Western Europe. Israel and several other countries discreetly traded with, and purchased enriched uranium from, South Africa throughout the 1980s. Romania's former president Nicolae Ceausescu, for example, used Israel as the "middleman" for exports to South Africa. In a few cases, joint ventures between Israel and South Africa helped to reduce the impact of sanctions on South African businesses.

The Israeli interest in South Africa sprang in part from the presence in South Africa of about 110,000 Jews, including at least 15,000 Israeli citizens. Israeli leaders sometimes justified trade with South Africa as support for the South African Jewish community, and South Africa provided a market for some of Israel's military exports. Israel's arms trade with South Africa was estimated at between US$400 million and US$800 million annually (see Arms Trade and the Defense Industry, ch. 5). In 1986 Israel also imported approximately US$181 million in goods, mainly coal, from South Africa, and exported to South Africa nonmilitary products worth about US$58.8 million.

In 1987 Israel took steps to reduce its military ties to South Africa to bring its policies in line with those of the United States and Western Europe. Then Minister of Foreign Affairs Shimon Peres announced the Israeli plan to ban new military sales contracts with South Africa, to reduce cultural and tourism ties, to appoint a committee to study sanctions proposals, and to condemn apartheid--which Peres characterized as "a policy totally rejected by all human beings." Israel also established educational programs in Israel for black South Africans. Nevertheless, through the early 1990s, several secret treaties remained in force, continuing the military relationship between the two countries and their joint research in missile development and nuclear technology.

you denied Israel's eugenics experiments that were exposed by Israeli TV. I refer you back to which you probably ignored. Israeli military officials have also publicly acknowledged their development of an 'ethnic bomb' (see )

you denied Israel's use of chemical weapons on the Palestinian population which has been reported by Doctors Without Borders and videotaped in a documentary called "The Gaza Strip".

you also rejected the established connection of Israeli companies and various high-level government officials in playing prominent roles in the perpetuation of the brutal war raging in Central Africa. I posted relevent links in the thread titled .

your inability to honestly come to terms with the monsterous entity that the Israeli state is and has been undermines your capacity to arrive at just and amicable solutions

>>the rest of your points are bullshit because you're going
>>off conjecture. i never said suicide bombings are justified.
>>i said Israeli terrorism, which predates Palestinian
>>terrorism (so spare the 'reactionary' excuse), grossly
>>dwarfs Palestinian terrorism.
>So what, that still doesnt make suicide bombings acceptable
>and you have repeatedly shied away from properly condemning
>them. Your "they started it" argument is as childish as it

What the fuck are you on? I have said on numerous occasions that I disagree and condemn the act of suicide bombing, but not necessarily the bomber. That is not such an abstract notion to understand. I did not "justify" or "rationalize" suicide bombers. I summarized the reasons why I don't necessarily condemn the bomber as being because I believe their actions are the end result of multi-faceted physical and socio-economic Israeli state terrorism. And for the record, all I said was zionist and Israeli state terrorism DWARFS Palestinian terrorism. From that, you somehow manage to extract a host of unrelated deductions... which do nothing but highlight your ignorance.

>> your intellectual dishonesty
>>in coming to terms with this simple fact for what it is
>>reveals a lot about your committment to real solutions.

>Really, so calling Israeli's Nazis, finding justifications
>for suicide bombings and making shit up about Israelis is
>progressing towards a solution.

I didn't call Israelis Nazis. I compared zionists and the Israeli state with the Nazi party and its government policies and practices. Do you have the intellectual capacity to note the difference? I know personally of many Israelis who share this perspective and have even posted statements by prominent Jewish intellectuals and orthodox rabbis echoing this sentiment.


“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday