26001, the Nazi comparison is completely valid|
Posted by zewari, Sat Nov-20-04 08:09 PM
>First of all, the comparison to the Nazis is not necessary.
>I think there are far better comparisons to other
>nationalist movements that aren't so inflamatory.
Equating the zionist movement with a nationalist movement is invalid. Nationalism is not exclusionary with respect to religion or race... nationalism is a movement centered on the social identity of a nation. Zionism is inherently exclusionary on account of religion, which disqualifies it from being treated as a nationalist movement.
>the links between the ideology of European anti-semetism and
>Zionism is good and worthy but to repeatedly use the phrase
>Nazi like is disengenuous. The Nazis, if you don't remember,
>tried to invade all of Europe killing tens of millions. Six
>million Jews Gypsies and Gays were destroyed in a fast and
>systematic way. As awful, immoral and destructive as the
>Zionist movement is; it's not NAZI LIKE. Like I said, it's
>far more similar now to America under legalised segregation
>or Apartheid South Africa or any number of awful regimes.
You're making the flaw of assuming that the comparison of zionists with Nazis is on account of what happened in World War II. The Nazi party platform was not isolated to WWII. The zionists practices greatly correlate in principle and action with the Nazy party's supremecist ideology and their subsequent political programs. I don't think you trully understand the genocidal nature of the policies by apartheid South Africa and the state of Israel, because you seem to think that they were lesser evils with respect to Nazi Germany. The only thing that separated the political maneuvers of Nazi Germany from apartheid S. Africa or the zionist presence in Palestinian land is SCALE.
Interestingly enough, there were many instances of prior to and during World War II, as both groups found a degree of similarity in their respective objectives- the idea of Jews being expelled from Germany by the Nazis was welcomed by zionists who sought to increase immigration to the "promise land". You seem to be one of those people who jump to charge the "anti-semite" accusation irresponsibly. I urge you to check sites like www.jewsagainstzionism.com and www.jewsnotzionists.org who also repeat comparisons between the Nazis and the zionists.
Noam Chomsky, who was also a former zionist, outlines how the zionists systematically recreated Nazi policies in Palestine in his book "The Iron Triangle". Also check out a book written by a former Mossad agent named Victor Ostrovsky called "By Way of Deception" to get a better idea about the horrendous actions of the Israeli state. Paul Findley's book "They Dare to Speak" also outlines many glaring similarities between Nazi Germany and zionist Israel.
When comparing zionist policy with that of the Nazis, you have to look at the way the Nazis treated desenters and those perceived as the "lesser" peoples with how the zionists treat desenters and those they deem as inferior peoples (i.e. so-called "gentiles" and, to a lesser extent, non-white jews). The zionists match the Nazis in almost every level of policies and actions. True dissent is not tolerated in the least bit- look at what happened to Vanunu after disclosing Israel's illegal nuclear weapons program (which they developed in close cooperation with apartheid S. Africa, along with their vast arsenal of chemical weapons), or their persecution of soldiers refusing to operate in the occupied territories. The zionists have also systematically contaminated the soil, and poisoned & diverted water resources from Palestinian lands in a systematic effort to starve out the Palestinian people and increase the mortality rate among Palestinians. The systematic economic suffocation of the Palestinians also mirrors the practices of Nazi Germany prior to the war. The Palestinians are confined to true ghettos much like the way Jews were confined to true ghettos in Nazi Germany. The zionists impose a brutal military presence that terrorizes Palestinian populations in much the same way the Nazis terrorized "non-aryans". The zionists systematically destroy the basic life support systems of the Palestinians in a methodical way much like the Nazis did prior to and during World War II.
What you seem to compare is the Nazi holocaust with the Palestinian genocide. That comparison was never proposed by myself, but a very powerful case could be made for making such a comparison as well... and the Iraqi genocide could arguably be linked to zionist hands. Israeli papers like the Haertz even reported that the current war against Iraq was lead by a group of 25 neoconservatives, most of which are prominent zionists.
>>What happened yesterday to the sign is a testament of the immense and sinister global power and influence that International Zionism now has, not just in Spain but in the USA as well.
>The wording seems so carefully chosen to allude to
>historical anti-semetic texts and propaganda. I don't doubt
>that the Zionist lobby is way to powerful in Washington and
>is ONE reason for the US's continued support for Israel but
>to use the word "sinister" and "global power" is like the
>guy was reading The Protocols...
You are reaching here. The writer is calling a spade for what it is when describing the suppression of legitimate dissent against zionism as being sinister. This cannot qualify as being anti-semitism.
>>The resolution infuriated World Jewry and they embarked on a campaign to rescind the resolution. Attesting to their international hold on the world economy and international political power, they where able to subjugate the economies of many of the countries that voted in favor of U.N. Resolution 3379.
>This allegation is also reminiscent of centuries of European
Again, you are guilty of loosely ascribing an allegation of anti-semitism. You can contest the claim that significant control of global economy and international politics is controlled by zionists, but you cannot logically equate that with racism or draw parallels to "European racist bullshit". The definition of racism is not satisfied by the author's statements.
>>Perhaps it is time to revisit and read "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". This document, which Zionists refute as being legitimate, actually makes sense when the incidents in Oleiros, Spain and in Mexico City are viewed under the "protocols" lense. How else can these types of incidents be explained?
>AH, so I was right, this nutso author is getting this
>straight out of the Protocols, geez. Where did you get this
The source of the article is linked in the title. Its a publication called The Aztlan. Check out their website to see what they are about before you start comparing them to white-supremecist organizations. You have to look at the argument proposed instead of picking on a contentious factor and telescoping it to dismiss the argument. For one, there was no assertion that the Protocols of Zion was true. The author contends that the incidents in Oleiros and Mexico City fit the context of the disputed Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The question you should've asked yourself would be what those incidents were. The Oleiros incident refers to the zionists pressuring the town to take down the pro-Palestinian human rights signs that they had decided to put up. The incident in Mexico City was one that occured a month after 9/11, where two Mossad agents were arrested in the Mexican Parliament for plotting to blow it up while it was in session. The agents were found with bombs and other munitions, and were immediately arrested... but later deported due to heavy handed pressure from Israel and the United States. The Aztlan had not made any argument contending that the Protocols of Zion are authentic. They argue that the behavior of the zionists forces are consistent with the Protocols. There's a big difference between the two positions.
>This is the kicker. It's been heavily
>documented by Jews and non Jews alike that this book was
>fabricated by Russian anti-semites and used to justify many
>muderous deeds including influencing Hitler.
This book had very little to do with motivating or justifying Hitler's deeds. The generation of Germans that came of age during the Nazi party's reign grew up during a period where Germans were pressed against the boots of their neighboring states. The anger, resentment, and hatred that lead to the formation of the Nazi party's policies are rooted in their collective national experience, not from this alleged work.
> So if anyone
>is Nazi like here it's the author of this article who seems
>more than likely to be a neo nazi himself considering
>they're the only people who still read the protocols.
Fallacios argument. You are really reaching here. In fact, it is mind numbing that you go so far as to say the Aztlan and this author is Nazi like or more Nazi like than the zionists in control of the Israeli state. The Nazis preached a doctrine of hate and supremacy that placed every "non-aryan" as inferior to the "aryan" man. Its amazing that you're so willing to label someone Nazi like despite the lack of any definitive declaration of hate or doctrine of racial supremacy. Furthermore, the Aztlan has historically aligned itself with global, pro-justice movements- unlike Nazi Germany, apartheid South Africa, or its ally Israel. First off, the Aztlan does not advocate the extermination of any Jews or any real semites. Second, the Aztlan hasn't passed categorical judgement on all Jews. Third, 95% of Jews aren't even Semites!! This is a fact that is not disputed by prominent Jewish scholars... and criticizing the policies of Israel or the actions of zionists does not make someone a racist, a bigot, or anti-semitic. And you should note that the Aztlan is closely affiliated with many pro-peace Jewish groups that are opposed to the state of Israel and the zionist forces.
I guess as a third-year journalism student, they really engrain that fallacious association of equating anything against the zionists with anti-semiticism huh? The U.S. press is quick to throw that label at anyone who criticizes zionist policy.