I don't follow any religion for it is an institution based on rule over people. I'll use Christianity as an example: The spiritual philosophy of Christ and the Dogma of Christianity are two different things. Christianity as we know it was created buy the despot Constatine, Emperor of Rome. He held te infamous Nicene Council, circa 323 AD. At this meeting he gathered many Christian scholars and monks etc., to decide the future of the faith. At the time there was no uniform doctrine. Constatine took it upon himself to chart the course of Christanity. He decreed the sabbath day be moved to Sunday. He decreed that Jesus was God on Earth, a very interesting idea being that many Christian scholars in noy the majority considered Jesus a prophet along the lines Moses and Muhhammad. All the mmebers of this symposium who argued that Jesus was a man and not God were removed from the council. He further transformed the holy from man woman and child to the sexist and patriarchal: father, son and the holy ghost. He also made Christanity the state religion even he had been a persecutor of Christians most of his life. I believe he took these steps to control and pacify the people by watering down a potential revolutionary ideology. I'm saying this to shit on Christians, but i think cats need to know more about the history of what they practice. But i think all religions are flawed any HolyBook that begins like this is the word of God i have problem with. Me myself i am a Taoist it is not a religion it is a spritual philosophy based the nature of the universe. If your sprituality and knowledge of world conflict your are in trouble.

I think science and religion should be one...
religion-way of life
science-study of life

There are a lot of holes in the info provided by the Catholic/Christian faith. Unlike many Christians, I know a few things about the faith I was raised with. In an ABC program, info about the life of Jesus was examined and put into perspective taking the contexual stand. In analyzing the life of Jesus, realistically, instead of being the great mover of crowds, a miracle-worker and an inspiration to many as is taught, the program made it seem as though he was as much a nuisance and as crazy as a crackhead.

Scholars pointed out that his miracles were most likely fabricated so that people would see what they could GET out of the religion. Religions were competing for followers and would say anything to get them. It seemed to me more like a business than spiritual guidance. They had all sorts of speculations about his life, from where he was really born, how he looked, to the question of whether he was even buried on Good Friday.

I too do not follow any religions, though I have gone to Catholic schools all my life. In watching educational programs, I see that 99% of what I believed as a child was not true, right down to Jesus' color of skin. I can't follow Catholicism, it has too many things that can't be explained. It's not that I want to be omniscient, but I want to feel as though a religion is a pretty solid faith to stand behind. I do not like to pin myself to any faith, but I am trying to be a more spiritual person, so Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism are appealing to me. I try not to focus on Christianity to much because I get frustrated with all the things that I do not understand and all the things that were added to the religion to gain followers. I have to sort truth from falsehood.

I think that people feel that they need religion sometimes. They need something to believe. Praying to saints and having all kinds of sacred articles give people a feeling that someone is looking out for them. They are loved. But truth to me is sometimes stronger than faith. The Bible says "blessed are those who do not see, yet believe" but that to me is just blind faith.
This is a continuous issue with me and I'm glad you brought it up.

God/Allah/Buddha/Vishnu/Tao/Guru Bless,
Dulce

I think the program you were in was tight as shit! I've never heard of such a thing. Where did it take place, i wouls like to hear more about it! I've never said that all Christians were lost but over time it has beem used to screw people over.

peace

It was a program on ABC called "In Search For Jesus." Peter Gennings went to Jeruselum and visited people, landmarks, churches, in search for the REAL Jesus. One example of a possible truth is that the way Jesus is depicted in art with nice long brown hair, a shaped beard, blue eyes and pale white skin is false. Jesus was probably medium to a little dark-skinned (i.e-Arabian men) with a rather rugged look. Also, a lot of what was professed about him in the Bible was broken down and taken to a level that would place Jesus' life within history, and using the manner of the times. It was really good and informative. Maybe you could order it form abcnews.com.

There is some really good programming concerning the Bible. There was one on A&E that showed the life of Mary Magdalene. She was actually depicted as a totally different person than what the Bible says that she was. They say that she was probably a very close friend of Jesus and preached herself. She was a follower of Jesus and served an important role in his inner circle. Mary was a holy woman that spread the word of God and did great things with her life after the death of Jesus, scholars said. She was not a prostitute as was thought. You should really check some of this out. Contextual reading of the Bible turns everything around and unmasks the sugar coatting.

~Dulce~

I feel you i think the Bible is a very deep book, but the instutional hierarchy prevents many ever seeing these ascpect for it is a threat to their ecclesiasctical monopoly.

I mean, good points.

i tried to told yall!
mofo dont listen doe!
good facts ;-)




it's a competetive world for low-budget people, spending a dime while earning a nickel.. - buju banton



"tahitian fresh berry treat...she's a capricorn" -GhostFaceKillah

" E El Isum Shil El Eloh El Rahmun, Alazi Izu El Rahummul!"

I'm an athiest, so I agree with most of what you were saying, but to then turn around and say you're a Taoist and therefor completely different? Nah, it doesn't work that way. Tao has it's own belief system, it's own symbols, it's own set of spiritual guidelines, it's own famous teachers, just like any other organized religion. To say that ALL religion is wack EXCEPT for the one that you believe in is weak.


----------------------------------------
Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; however, if the melody has not reached its end, it would also not have reached its goal. A parable.
--Nietzsche

Taoism isn't a religion per se, it is more of a loose spiritual philosophy of ideas that pertain to the nature of the world. Taosim is the acceptance of the infinite nature of the universe itself, and respect for it. The Tao was writen by Lao Tzu it is not the Infaallible word of God, The Tao doesn't deal with God, for the Tao says why define things you cannot describe. To clarify myself when say religion is wack i refer to institution of religion, not a righteous way of life.

peace

Look, I know what Taoism is. I have a copy of the Tao Te Ching, and it's good stuff, I agree. But my point is that it IS a religion. It's organized, it has it's main teaching (the Tao Te Ching). Just because it isn't as structured as the Catholic church doesn't make it any less of a religion, and in my opinion Tao is basically the same thing that Jesus was teaching his disciples (and indeed it might have been-during the missing years of his life in the Bible it is believed that he traveled to W Asia and studied with the Buddhas).

Now, to say that your belief (Tao) teachings the true righteous path while deriding Christianity.... you're walking a very thin line.


----------------------------------------
Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; however, if the melody has not reached its end, it would also not have reached its goal. A parable.
--Nietzsche

Good lookin, Velodragon. I was about to say the same myself. Lord knows (pun intended) I'm not the biggest fan of Christianity out there, but I think it's suspect to wail on about the faults of all faiths except the one that you're interested in.

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/0/0,5716,108170+2+105866,00.html

A short account for anybody interested in finding out more.

Firts of all, i am a beleiver in Jesus as a wise man, I respect Moses, Abraham, Muhhamad, etc., i feel like these people are my prophets as well. I read the Koran and the Bible, the Bgavagita, ancient Egyptain mystery texts etc., on and on. I undertsand the cultural relevance in dealing with other faiths i have respect for ohter cultures and how they view life. I'm not dissing anyones personal ideas but the idea of an institution influencing ones thooughts or better yet them upon others. I think we should become wary when the institution become more important than the goal of enlightenment.

I never said Taoism was the righteous path. I said Taosim is in accordance with natural processes of the universe. I do believe Jesus was on the same vibe also there is mad evidence he studied the Egyptian mystery system as well as an Eastern philosophy such as Buddhism, how else would he wanted to reform Judaism. If you peep my first post you will see, that i say the ideology of Jesus and Christianity are two different things. I see our disagreement is whether Taosim is a religion or not, i can live with that.

I'll just chalk this up to another one of those fundamental differences in our approach to life.

----------------------------------------
Not every end is a goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; however, if the melody has not reached its end, it would also not have reached its goal. A parable.
--Nietzsche

I follow the bible (and to me it is the Word of God) ......

a lot of folks read into Christianity the wrong way. Folks dog the Christian faith and have never even looked at a bible. They just go on what they have seen on TV or what they have seen in church.

People don't relize that Christians are people, they are still sinners like everyone else. SOme Christians think that since they are Christians that they are better than everyone else. Those type of people you have to overlook.

I noticed a lot of people on these boards, denounce the Christian faith (not saying you, but a lot of people) because of the way the church was ran or the people they have interacted with. People can't do that!!!!!!!!! Because they are dealing with a people, which means they are imperfect.

That is why I have decided to follow the bible instead of what people say. I still hear what the pastor says, but I test his words with the bible and if he contradicts the words of the bible, than he is wrong not the bible.

It's all a matter of faith, and if you are a naturalist that is fine with me, but I just find it interesting that everytime religion comes up people want to dog Christianity and no other religion.

Peace!!!!!!

AIM: BurbKnight

--"The Broke Diaries" ...... prolly the first book that I will buy and actually read it completely.

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Hey, brotha Burb, I feel you on why you get heated every time somebody stigmatizes Christianity with the negative epitomes of ignorance and devalue, and although I am not a Christian, I do not try to drag somebody elses beliefs into mine, because afterall, we ALL have beliefs.
No One is Right or Wrong.
Now, suffice to say, I don't agree with a lot of things in the Chrisitan faith, but I can't exactly prove that I'm All right about historical persistance.


"Maybe that's why I'm so exhausted
as a revolutionary
I realize I can't save everyone
I'm trying to save myself
and I'm afraid"- Pamela Sneed

>I just find
>it interesting that everytime religion
>comes up people want to
>dog Christianity and no other
>religion.
>

I was going to type a whole post on why Christianity & Christians are easy targets, but here's the boiled down version:

1) there are SO many of us (so I give away which side of the fence I'm on)... one of the top 5 religions worldwide in terms of # of people who claim it (truly practicing is a different story.. but that's for another post)

2) the belief we have about Christ being the only way to God... in general, people on both sides have a real problem dealing with exclusivity

3) our belief that we've been commissioned to spread the good news about Christ and lead others to follow Him... people (a) don't like being told they are wrong & (b) feel like those who spread the news are infringing upon a very personal part of their lives (which we do when we're overzealous)

4) and pretty much everything janey said in paragraphs 3-6 in her post (#10) applies (Burb, I think you said some of the same things, though)

later...

- the fabulous one, lover of old school, slow jam connoisseur, and okayplayer's resident free safety x(
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I think people dog, Christianity cuz more than other philosophic institution besides maybe Captialism it has brought more despair to world despair to the world. I don't dog Christians per se, but i dog alot of their helpless ideology, the whole external way of dealing with inner turmoil. I also have a problem with original sin and their way of separating self from God, and theirselves from nature.

...it's obvious that religion can be as restrictive and oppressive as any Communist dictatorship. And while I agree with your points about organized religion being something that helps control a large mass of people, I also find it quite inflammatory and simple-minded to simply say religion is wack. Plenty of people get plenty of different things from whatever religion they practice. In general they provide a loose moral center for most of the world, and while the rules and regulations that are associated with any religion might seem stupid, myopically traditional, or outright contrary to scientific evidence they obviously provide something of worth to the people that follow them. And like old boy said stating religion is wack but then championing Taoism because it's something you practice is about as childish as it gets.

And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
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Call it what you will, I just feel like ideas are better than beliefs, and my philosophy is an array of ideals rather than beleifs.

"You can Change ideas beileifs are a lot harder, people die for it." -Rufus the 13th apostle in dogma

Ill, I think you know most of my position from other posts that I've made, but let's see if I can summarize some of my major conclusions, which if you like I will support with background/hypothesis and experiential data.

People tend to work, live, socialize and express themselves better in community. Religious communities (a specific church, religion, etc) are formed, in their essence, in order for people to have a space within which to express their common faith and the ways they have in common of living that faith. Religious communities grow to be organizations; organizations are flawed. Organizations tend to self-perpetuate and become rigid as they get larger. Often when people join large organizations they find that on a macro level the organization does not feed them spiritually, but on a micro level it does, or else they wouldn't join. Often, those people will choose to ignore the teachings or rules promoted by the macro-organization because on the micro-level, the faith that is expressed is done so in a way that coheres with their beliefs.

Additionally, some people like religious organizations with strict rules so that they can feel assured that they are doing the right thing.

Also, don't forget that every religion is taught to children who grow up in it in a different way than it is taught to adults who join, or adults who truly study the theology behind the accepted practices. You have to water the stuff down for simpler minds. And so sometimes people who haven't studied a particular religion closely or as an adult will have incorrect opinions about the actual "teachings" of that religion.

History tells us our mistakes that we can then rectify. Religions are human organizations that are developed and run by human beings. Human beings screw up all the time. Human beings in positions of power screw up all the time, very visibly and sometimes in a way that can have lasting detrimental effects. Don't ask whether a religion has in the past been screwed up, ask what it's doing now.

For religions that are visibly hate-filled, and there are some, ask yourself whether that's the fault of the "religion" or the fault of its membership and the people who are currently in power. Then ask yourself whether those same people would perpetuate the same hate under a different guise if they didn't belong to a religion.

You know I believe that faith is ultimately a personal issue, a personal search. I would not be comfortable as a member of almost any religion you could name (from a macro perspective) but I acknowledge the great goods that can be achieved in specific communities, and I don't want to stop good people from doing good things through their communities, even if that means I have to indulge their fantasies about what the after-life will be like, etc.

Here's an example. My mother, at a very difficult time in her life, joined a Baptist church in her community. She and I talked about it at the time, and I said to her, "You love to play cards and to dance. Why would you join a religion that prohibits both?" (Obviously not all do, some are more flexible than others, but her church did happen to frown upon both activities). Then I met her pastor. What a lovely, loving person. His focus and his message was one of acceptance and hope and love. He had a way of working within the rules and confines of a particular religion to create a community that transcended religious dogma. Was I going to take that away from my mother, or even disapprove? Never. So that's a time when I saw why it worked. But most of the time, you don't see inside people's hearts or learn from them what really works in their life or why the religion that they have chosen is right for them. Also, most people aren't really taught to speak about their religion in those kinds of terms, often they are unable to say anything beyond "It's true, I believe it, that settles it." But you know there's more to it than that.

My rule for myself is to be tolerant and accepting of differences in others and when I become judgmental to take note of my judgment. Being judgmental is a necessary action of the mind. If we are not capable of making judgments, we would be unable to discern the difference between healthy and unhealthy relationships, etc., down to the simple task of deciding whether the milk is fresh or spoiled. That takes judgment. It's not a good or a bad thing. So I try to note the judgments that my mind automatically makes, and when those judgments could result in my holding a negative opinion of someone based on the automatic reaction of my mind, I try to be conscious of it so that it doesn't actually affect the way I treat them.

Peace.

No need for me to even try making any other points....

Perfect save the "fantasies" thing, b/c none of us can prove/disprove beliefs like that. Those are things one believes (or doesn't) based on his/her personal faith.

But I'm being nitpicky. :-)

Great post!!

- the fabulous one, lover of old school, slow jam connoisseur, and okayplayer's resident free safety x(
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What I meant by the reference to "fantasies" is beliefs about factual matters that are held near and dear to a person's heart, ranging from Play-Cards/Go-To-Hell to Streets-Of-Heaven-Paved-With-Gold to whatever other picture they hold in their mind. Probably my use of the word "fantasy" was ill advised, I should have been more clear that I was referring to images held in the mind that may or may not be true but that don't work for me. Recall that this was in the context of not stopping good people from doing good things.

Thanks again. I try to think hard about what I post here and I really appreciate feedback.

Peace.

Teach the children to truth from day one. No need to water things down, I was reading the Pittsburgh Post Gazetter when was 3. That is when the mind is purest fill it with truth and truth will be fulfilled, fill it with lies and ...
Babylon will be born...

through a spiritual path.

I've done much reading, and I've concluded that most religions are designed to cater to those people who find it in their best interests, and it does not always deal with common sense or factual documentation.

The one thing that gets me about most religions is that the people involved in them disassociate themselves from nature and the rest of the world.
What about trees, do they get to go to heaven?

All I can say is that I can't prove/ nor disprove that some of my textual findings are foolproof.


"Maybe that's why I'm so exhausted
as a revolutionary
I realize I can't save everyone
I'm trying to save myself
and I'm afraid"- Pamela Sneed

Please don't take this to indicate any affiliation on my part, but a theology professor once pointed out that of the few promises that Christ was that there would be "new heavens and a new earth" which he took to mean that Roman Catholocism offers heaven to everyone and everything. Trees included.

Now don't y'all go off on me. I'm not saying that RCs are right, or that they're better or any of that. I'm just agreeing that a complete theology is a plus and giving a little background.

Peace.

The one thing that WE need to understand is that a "new earth" doesn't have to necessarily mean a "doomsday".
It could mean just a simple process of cleansing and rejuvenation that the earth will go through.


"Maybe that's why I'm so exhausted
as a revolutionary
I realize I can't save everyone
I'm trying to save myself
and I'm afraid"- Pamela Sneed

My point exactly...

I have always read that the year for the Nicean Council was in 423 CE. The council also assembled and edited the series of books now considered to be the Bible. They purposely left out any references to Jesus' teenage years or personal life. They left out books such as the Gospel of Barnabas (which is supposedly written by the disciple Simon) because it offers a differing eyewitness account on the crucifixion. Paul's book was included even thought he had never seen or met Jesus (Paul's version of Christianity is commonly practiced). They also left out the Gospel of Thomas which is the largest collection of the teachings/sayings/philosophy of Jesus. The Council also set about incorporating pagan holidays and practices into Christianity in order to increase converts.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

In Rotation:
Tool - Aenema
Deftones - White Pony
A Perfect Circle - Mer De Noms
Down - Nola
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II
Black Sabbath - Sabotage

Can you refer me to any readings on the subject...

The Gospel of Barnabas
The Gospel of Thomas
Deceptions and Myths of the Bible - Lloyd M. Graham
The Bible itself (most people read the King James version)
any World Civilizations book that covers the early development of religions

Thanks for making me look up my resources cause I just found a better date (more inline with the one you mentioned) for the Nicean Council at 325 CE.
Thanks for reading. I love you.

In Rotation:
Tool - Aenema
Deftones - White Pony
A Perfect Circle - Mer De Noms
Down - Nola
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II
Black Sabbath - Sabotage