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Forum nameOkay Activist Archives
Topic subjectDebt-relief in the Third World
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=23235
23235, Debt-relief in the Third World
Posted by Mr_McFeely, Thu Jul-27-00 06:42 AM

should it happen? should it be stepped up to cancellation even? these questions are of much concern.

what do we say as we battle for "democracy" and the "freedom" of capitalism? is that freedom really freedom from responsibility? while africa is dependent on the so-called first world, we continue to live in ignorance. these african countries live in extreme poverty that may never be conquered due to roadblocks and constricting control by the west.

did you know 35 of the world's poorest countries owed $226 billion in 199--less than the U. S. fiscal year 1998 defense budget. 28 of these countries are in africa!

so with countries under heavy debt, barely able to make minimum payments, much less the full amount or the interest, do we have any reason to expect this money back? i did say "we," for we must accept responsibility for the situation, ALL of us. everyday we live relatively pain-free and enjoy much at the expense of our brothers from the south.

the flip side of the coin is that the world is now smaller than ever, and capitalism holds more control each year. we call this freedom from strict government control, yet half of the world is hungry. if it is a capitalist world, isn't it only fair that these countries pay their debts?

well, i don't think we have a flip-side as an option. how will these countries ever recover with virtually no control of their own precious resources, TNC's(trans-national corporations) reign supreme sucking the blood of the sufferers(c) bob, and this debt looms overhead?

should the world let it go? or relieve it little by little?

before u answer...consider...if it is all let go, will things change? will more money be lent? it may not be as simple as that old "give everyone in the U.S. $20,000 and they'll be alright," because we are dealing with molded attitudes, and cultures totally infected with the idea that west=best while is is the west that is the cause of their problems.

what u think?


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23236, RE: Debt-relief in the Third World
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Jul-27-00 07:05 AM
I think that the 3rd world debt should be absorbed and more aide should be funneled to Africa and South America...
"America's still five centuries deep in cotton money"-Mos Def
If we took a % of the profits Private prison industry enjoys and redirected it to these places that would resolve a lot of the health care problems. I don't have the stats, but this monster was created by Corporate greed and capitalism's chase for profit! Now think about this. This is an "Election" year. Have either candidates mentioned this issue? Will they? McFeely I strongly suggest that during the Republican Con. You go out to the demonstrations and show solidarity with those protesting over this exact issue. I'll be in LA for D2K! JOIN THE FIGHT!!!!


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23237, RE: Debt-relief in the Third World
Posted by guest, Thu Jul-27-00 08:04 AM
It should be relieved , we were the ones who put them in debt in the first place. Our imperialistic attitudes and ways drove these countries into the ground.
23238, America the "booty"full
Posted by guest, Thu Jul-27-00 08:33 AM
America sure does have it's arm ahead in the imperialistic game of capitalists gains.
It's funny whenever I hear some lame-ass politician (shit, who isnt lame?) say "we're gonna get tougher on crime!"
Shit, anybody who buys into that is a dumb-ass.
AMerica couldn't be any more tougher on crime than it already is, having the highest percentage of people in the world who are imprisoned and having the most number of prisons being built.
All of our money goes to these prisons, and capitalist ventures are investing in them.
You think that money will ever be sent to Africa or Haiti?
Hell f***ing NO!

"Maybe that's why I'm so exhausted
as a revolutionary
I realize I can't save everyone
I'm trying to save myself
and I'm afraid"- Pamela Sneed

23239, As I said before
Posted by k_orr, Thu Jul-27-00 09:03 AM
Even if you wiped out the debt, the "3rd" world still wants to live the American lifestyle.

They would end up in debt again.

k. orr
23240, RE: Debt-relief in the Third World
Posted by mke, Thu Jul-27-00 09:57 PM
I wish that 3rd World debt could be forgotten.
Unfortunately, there are a few barriers to that.

1. The world system runs on debt/credit. Think about it. Which is the richest country? Which is the most indebted? One and the same. To eliminate debt, even for the poorest few, is to call into question the lubricant of the world economic system, and we all know that that isn't going to happen.

2. When debt is relieved, immediately talk of conditionality follows, which means "We'll give you more help, if you give us more control." Seeing the track record of those taking more control, who do you think is going to benefit?

3. Debt isn't generally owed to countries but to private companies. The money might not be much for a country (or even for the company), but as above, debt isn't going to be forgotten for free, especially not by companies. In any case, the companies will want their money, so the rich countries would have to pay these companies the debt in some way or other.

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In English:
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23241, excellent point
Posted by Mr_McFeely, Fri Jul-28-00 08:03 AM
that first point you made was what i was trying to get at in the end of my post. we DO live in a debt/credit world.

{long sigh}


Shigga1: u need to have a class . . . . . like the man show or some shit
Shigga1: but a class

"And balls are so great

"digital."--Me and Scoop Squeeze

AIM user name:Bandulu

23242, the least we can do
Posted by krewcial, Fri Jul-28-00 12:19 AM
If you consider all the exploitation (past and current) then debth relief is actually just a minimal thing.

Genetical engineering, using ancient knowledge, copyrighting medicine and plants, ... it's getting worse as we speak.

So :
a) debth relief
b) reparations
c) fair trade

And that's just a start.

And if that means I won't be able to buy a 2nd video or larger TV, I don't care.

What can WE do, as individuals ? Buy at fair trade shops (skip Chiquita), Oxfam, whatever it's called where you live.

It's not just Africa : don't forget Eastern Europe and Central and South America.




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I'm part of this too ... :

the instrumentals for my next album (in MP3-format) :

'We've got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth'

23243, Unfortunately,
Posted by guest, Fri Jul-28-00 08:16 AM
If Africa(im using the continent as a whole,including the "28" countries) was given a pass on paying back then othr countries would expect the same...thats how the world works. Africa' situation may never be solved...its not one answer...its 100 answers needed.
23244, RE:
Posted by eddydon, Sat Jul-29-00 12:42 PM
I am going to play devil's advocate here...... How about if the rulers continually take the money that is supposedly given to them to help their country. why then should debt be forgiven if the President or whomever is in power have their debt forgiven?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. If you can't join 'em, bribe 'em. If you can't bribe 'em, blackmail 'em! (heeheehee).

"One love, one love, you're lucky just to have just one love." - Whodini

"I spit brook, brook, brooklyn everytime i bust." - Jay-Z

"throughout life people will make you mad. disrespect you and treat you bad. let god deal with the things they do 'cause hate in your heart will consume you too" - will smith

"Humankind's biggest problem is his/her inability to sit quietly in a quiet room by his/herself.
It seems as though we're always "on the cutting edge of technology." We walk around with cell phones, just to hear the same shit we can hear at home. We can't think outside of the 1,2,3s of life (person place or thing; man woman and child; A-B-C; 1-2-3; father son holyghost; lions tigers and bears "oh my!")
We are constantly in the pursuit of gettin new things. A person can never make enough money because their needs will not be satisfied. Show me a person who is making $40,000 and I'll show you somebody who wants to make $50,000, and so on. We want to do so much, in fears that our lives are getting shorter by the minute. Everything has to be faster, better, more bigger. We try our best to get everything and do everything. And for what,....just to only perish from this physical existence." - Wise_7

23245, answers to this issue
Posted by notnac, Sat Jul-29-00 11:22 PM
Here's a cool FAQ that deals with this problem:



"....For if their purpose or activity is of
human origin, it will fail. But if it is
from God, you will not be able to stop
these men; you will only find
yourselves fighting against God."
Acts 5:38
23246, good site...damn good n/m
Posted by guest, Tue Aug-01-00 08:31 AM
Make August Young_Isa quote month - Love him or Him..Just have a quote by Young_Isa or about Young_Isa

Click my Links there more intelligent that 62.38% of what I normally post.

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Beautiful woman

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23247, Debt-relief in the Third World
Posted by guest, Mon Jul-31-00 05:53 AM

>should it happen? should it be
>stepped up to cancellation even?
>these questions are of much

as a ugandan I'm interested in what korr and eddydon had to say..debt should be relieved by all means (nobody on either side expects full repayment) but it still remains at a level far above your ordinary person in the sense that african leaders continue to borrow what they can't repay and huge slabs of that money & aid vanish almost as soon as soon as they enter the country.

say, uganda's poorest wouldn't care either way because they saw hardly a cent of that money as it came in..so it's fair to say that they shouldn't have to pay for it's return.

progress has been made with corruption but a few of our politicians have learnt how to play the game..scapegoat the most visibly corrupt, funnel less obviously, shave fractions off fractions of the military budgets, then 'satisfactorily' justify increased spending in the next budget, introduce 'free' education that costs - thus you're percieved as a model nation, deserving off massive debt relief and aid packages.

ah, lemme not be so cynical/pessimistic..we'll see who benefits.


seize your time! - marley

best to take what you need but don't be greedy - 2pac (rip)
23248, RE: Debt-relief in the Third World
Posted by k_orr, Mon Jul-31-00 09:21 AM

>as a ugandan I'm interested in
>what korr and eddydon had
>to say..

In essence, the leaders of lesser developed nations want to become developed nations like the G-8 nations.

I am questioning this goal personally. I don't think everyone in the world needs to rock Hilfiger, push a suburban on blades, and run out for the new Harry Potter novel.

I do think we should aim our economies to self-sufficiency and not growth.

But to get to the Us status that so many folks want there have been 2 options.

1. Loans to government
2. Corporate/capitalist involvement in both countries.

Neither of which have brought the masses of people in lesser developed nations to live like members of the G-8. Option 1 has put them in major debt, and Option 2, well I'm sure the others on the board could get you up on corporate crime.

I think it is possible for every country to have the US type of living, but the costs of doing so are great.

k. orr
23249, RE:
Posted by eddydon, Mon Jul-31-00 07:59 PM
A good example is what is happening in Zimbabwe.
the current president is using the killing of the white farmers as his personal tool for the natives to back him up yet he's taking money from other countries and pocketing it himself.
Sometimes debt relief or forgiveness should be given to some but some leaders truly eff it up for their countries by pocketing the money.

"I try to school these shorties under me/but they can't see from life to death/so know we're back to where we never left/the ghetto/It's a damn shame/knowing it's a man's game/shorty think it's time to make your plans change/all that running around trying to chase whats already here/been there/pops told me to knuckle up/No fear." - Nas