>>Really ? You actually believe
>>everything the institutionalised press tells
>>you ?
>
>It's better than just listening to
>mere hearsay.

So the only alternative to the institutionalised press is hearsay and gossip or lies ?

What do you rely on ? Just CNN and a few newspapers ? And even so, even those report on atrocities committed in the name of your splendid capitalism. The Financial Times happens to be honest every now and then.

>Yeah...so I'm sure that the incident
>at the US embassy in
>Kenya never happened.
>It's about more than just small-time
>terrorists like Bin Laden.
>It's about being prepared.
>To simply shut down our
>national defense and pretend that
>an incident can't break out
>tomorrow, or whenever, is naive.

Did I say 'shut down' ? Nope. There's a difference between constant expansion when you're already the strongest by far and using that same public money for the public.

>China is, huh?
>There has been evidence appearing that
>China has smuggled top secret
>information from government files, they
>are building up their arms
>storage, not to mention has
>threatened the US with war
>twice in the past 5
>years, not to mention the
>controversy with Taiwan still looms.
>Buddies indeed.

Funny, how come your government makes a deal with China so that it opens up its market to US COMPANIES ? That's not evidence of an ignorant government, it shows that big business has a) taken over the goverment and b) doesn't care about human rights.

>>>A national defense is important
>>>in protecting the US and
>>>it's interests.
>>
>>Good, keep on repeating what they
>>tell you.
>
>That's not repeating what someone tells
>me, it's COMMON SENSE.
>Only fools would not protect
>themselves.

As I said, you have to make choices. There's only a limited amount of money, so there's priorities to be made. That happens today too : money flows to the military instead of a decent accessible health care system.
My point is : this decision has not been supported by the public before it was taken, so it means you have to be convinced that it's a good thing. So that you would repeat rethoric on these boards.

Of course I'm not anti a decent army that can protect it's citizens. All I'm doing is questioning the amount of money that goes to the military (which mainly defends PRIVATE/BUSINESS interests abroad) at the expense of other necessary initiatives.

>Why don't they? The highway
>system is not open to
>the public???? The public
>does not transport themselves to
>and from work, home, to
>see family, friends, and the
>like? You don't think
>wear and tear comes from
>that? You think commercial
>trucks are the only vehicles
>that damage the road system,
>that pollute, that have wrecks?

Major independent studies show that trucks damage roads much more than cars, becos of a few reasons :

a) less restrictions on fuel being used
b) heavier weight
c) the nature of the job leads to more accidents : drivers are often forced to drive over 10 hours without taking breaks
d) an accident with a truck has much more impact, becos of its weight and size

You'll probably call these studies 'wrong' without substantiating, but all I can say is that I see it's true every time I'm on the highway; you better not use the first lane when it's raining, since the road is worn out from having all those heavy trucks.

>Public money is used
>because the PUBLIC USES THE
>ROADS....

funny, when you continue with :

>All interests use the highway system.

>>You completely missed my point.
>>I was referring to the
>>flow of public money to
>>private businesses, not national defense.
>
>And it's that flow of public
>money that helps people working
>for private businesses keep their
>jobs. What, you think
>they are going to keep
>them on despite losing profits?
> Be real.

Oh, so now all of a sudden it's ok for public money to flow to private businesses ? I don't get it : you mentioned something about shareholders being so stupid to stay on a sinking ship, suddenly it's ok to keep that ship from sinking ?

Please elaborate.

>>Does this mean you're an expert
>>in empoverishment exploitation, pillage and
>>genocide, since you support the
>>current structure/system ?
>
>There is NO genocide and no
>exploitation going on in this
>country. I repeat, if
>it is going on over
>international waters, then the respective
>governments should be held accountable
>for the exploits, not this
>government.

This is where we disagree.
The worst thing is that you even deny the exploitation and genocide that goes on in your own country.

Never heard of the Indians in reserves ? Never heard of shipping harddrugs on purpose to gettoes ?

>>I have a few ideas, mostly
>>based on Noam Chomsky's views.
>>If you want more info,
>>you can check this link
>>:
>>
>>http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles.cfm

>*sighs* I am not going
>to read 50 columns.
>If you read it then
>you should be able to
>give an accurate analysis on
>what you read and apply
>it to the discussion.
>It would be different if
>it was only 1 or
>2, but don't expect me
>to sit here and read
>all of this stuff.

Sure. I didn't say you should read all of it. The articles are indexed, by topic. You could pick whatever you want.

If you're not interested just say so, don't blame it on the number of articles. I thought you were so keen on being informed ?

You want to know where I'm coming from ? Well it's all there. I can't summarize a process that's taken me 8 years in a few posts. Especially with you contradicting yourself and ignoring the topic/question.

>>I agree that's not what the
>>US SHOULD do, but unfortunately
>>reality is slightly different...
>>I hope you at least see
>>this ?
>
>No I don't. If they
>shouldn't do it, then why
>does reality say they should?
>Explain.

I'm not saying reality says they 'should', REALITY SHOWS THEY DO.

The US are all over this planet. I don't expect you to know it, since you're not interested in the world outside the US.

>>All of them ? You
>>must live in an easy
>>world, where every single thing
>>that doesn't fit into your
>>logic is 'wrong' ...
>
>Look, there is funding out there
>for anyone, repeat ANY AMERICAN
>CITIZEN that wants to go
>to school to do so.
>Plenty of grants, scholarships,
>loans, and what not, whether
>they are public or private.
>You have to actually
>LOOK for them. There
>are thousands of programs at
>the state and federal level
>that are just waiting for
>people to apply for them.
>The problem is, people
>don't want to take the
>time to find them.

Just cos you had access to them, means everyone can apply ? You know what the situation is like in every US state ? How come you're so sure ?

And how come you're so sure about people not wanting to take the time to find 'm ?

You sound pretty allknowing for a 22 year old.

>The door of opportunity
>in this world is larger
>than it has ever been.

'Glass ceiling' is a socialist fabrication right ?
'Racism' a communist concept right ?
'Sexism' only exists in my imagination ?

>The only thing government
>should be responsible for is
>our own interests internationally.

Could you describe these ? That's a very general remark you make, I'm sure most people will find that's all the US does today.

>That's right, and the earth is
>split into countries and territories
>for a reason, because they
>are to represent their own
>interests domestically. What do
>you want to do, have
>the federal government make an
>international police force?

The US does so now.

>I never said it doesn't, I
>said that the federal government's
>powers should be reduced and
>the foreign governments should be
>held accountable for the plight
>of their citizens.

That would be true if those foreign governments weren't depending on and/or weren't client states
of the US.

>I have no responsibility towards the
>people of Guatemala or any
>other country. I repeat,
>that is the GOVERNMENT OF
>GUATEMALA'S problem, not mine.
>I'm not part of any
>oppression or exploitation and hence
>cannot be held accountable for
>it.

Look, young man. Read at least a few of those 50 columns. Then comeback, okay ?

>>>>Then of course,
>>>>if you don't have any
>>>>money, that's probably your own
>>>>fault, right ?
>>>
>>>Sure is.
>>
>>This, my friend, is why I
>>call you a fascist.
>
>I am a fascist because I
>believe in earning what I
>have? Reaping what I
>sow? You got a
>nerve.

You are fascist cos you blame individuals for structural deficiencies that they have no impact on. You have no sense of solidarity or community.
You'd probably blame a Vietnam war vet for loosing his leg or dying from the consequences of PCP, cos 'those are the risks of being a soldier'.

>>Oh, you wanna talk about both
>>sides ? No problem !
>>How much did school/media tell you
>>about the peace proposals during
>>the Israeli/Palestina conflict, all vetoed
>>by the US ?
>>How much did school tell you
>>about the US mass genocide
>>in Vietnam ? Raping
>>of women, pillaging of villages,
>>destroying of agricultural infrastructure and
>>economy ?
>>How much did school teach you
>>about the enslavement of Africans
>>?
>>How much did school tell you
>>about the marginalizing, killing and
>>getto-ing of the original Americans
>>(Indians) ?
>>How much does school inform our
>>children today about the cancerous
>>effects of food that's filled
>>with hormones ? Are
>>students being told about vegetarianism
>>?
>>How much unbiased info do children
>>get about communism/socialism today ?
>
>ALL of these things you can
>learn, given you take the
>respective classes on them, mainly
>in college.

Missed my point again. How unbiased are these classes ? You assume, simply cos these classes exist, that they'll give you a fair view ?
The existence of such a class doesn't automatically mean that it'll give you both sides.

>Also, you can indeed take the
>initiative to learn things on
>your own. Some things
>doesn't need to e proporgandized
>by school.

Exactly : unfortunately some people (but you seem to blame them for that) don't live in an area where those classes are organized, or have 2 to 3 jobs and a family when they leave school, which hardly leaves time to be educated. Education is nice and all, but if you got no food on the table work comes first.

>It is not my fault that
>anyone is poor! That
>is their government's fault, not
>mine. The only thing
>I'm guilty of is being
>born in a country with
>opportunity, that's it that's all.
>I have no responsibility
>to anyone else unless I
>volunteer responsibility.

Of course you're not responsible individually for the exploitation of banana farmers who work for Chiquita. But still buying those bananas when you KNOW what really goes on, makes you volunteer responsibility.
You can agree or not, but buying those bananas without saying anything/reacting to those injustices, makes you an accomplice. You don't have to argue that with me, talk to the farmers that are being sprayed with insecticide 4 times a day without being warned so that they can leave the plantation during spraying.

>Who are YOU to say someone
>has generated enough wealth?
>Who gave you, or Ralph
>Nader or those Green Party
>nuts, the right to tell
>me how much money I
>can make and what I
>have to do with MY
>money?

Your money may not be generated through exploitation, but your standard of living sure is, cos you can buy cheap goods that have been produced in inhumane circumstances

>You have no
>RIGHT to go and take
>something that I earned, repeat,
>EARNED, and do whatever with
>it.

Then how come you think it's OK for companies to not give people the money they earn through hard work ? Pretty inconsistent ? Or are Indian or Indonesian people worth less than Americans ?

I'm not saying they should get 12 dollars an hour when the standard of living is 10 times lower than where you live.
But their wages are something like 25 times lower than those 12 dollars. They simply don't get a proper pay, considering their reality.

>The simple fact that you
>feel you should make decisions
>on what I should do
>with my own money is
>true fascism. It's the
>essence of big government leftism.

Nope. You're defending a system where many more people than just the few of us with Internet access and enough free time to discuss this are being exploited on a daily basis.

You want the US to be more isolationist ? Good. Be consequent, don't rely on the exploitation abroad anymore. Let Americans cultivate those fruits and make those sneakers. See how much prices rise.

>So here is what
>you and the other leftists
>say....
>
>"Okay American citizens, let's get something
>straight. Government is going
>to take your money, whether
>you like it or not.
>You might as well
>get used to it.
>BUT, what we are going
>to do is let you
>democratically vote for how everyone
>wants that money spent.
>If you're part of the
>minority that doesn't like how
>it's spent, tough shit.
>Your money is ours now."

You're saying :

>"Okay American citizens, let's get something
>straight. Government is going
>to take your money and hand it directly to >companies, whether
>you like it or not.
>You might as well
>get used to it.
>We're not even going
>to let you
>democratically vote for how everyone
>wants that money spent.
>If you're part of the
>majority of people exploited becos of this >system's reliance on massive low wage labour
>, tough shit.
>Your money is ours now."

>Human rights isn't even the point!
> That's one of the
>funny things about your dream
>of a democratic society....you're already
>assuming that the majority agrees
>with you!

The majority of people on this planet is not on your side. They work for you, they experience the 'greatness' of your US dominance every single day. The majority of them don't know elections, don't have access to power at all.

What you call 'majority' is propaganda. It suits your logic, but it's not reality.

>You don't
>even know whether or not
>they think their tax money
>should be given up for
>massive amounts of foreign aid!
>This is all your
>little dream inside your little
>head.

>What if they
>agree with me? What
>if they say, through democratic
>means, that they don't want
>their tax dollars being sent
>to other countries??

Democratic means would mean that people would first be giving the means to extricate themselves from the current propaganda system.

Which is not the case today.

My point is : don't complain/whine/be surprised when your embassy is blown up right at one of the centres of US exploitation. You reap what you sow.

Calling this terrorism, and ignoring the fact that the centre of worldwide terrorism is in DC, is ignoring reality/swallowing propaganda.

>Sit
>there and ask yourself, if
>that is an idea that
>you can actually swallow?
>What would be next on
>the drawing board? Would
>you use government force in
>order to see that agenda
>enforced anyways??

No, cos that happens today and. Only thing is : it's a different agenda.

>Well thank you, because if I
>want to be selfish and
>want to keep the possessions
>I buy, earn, or inherit,
>I have every right to
>do so. Once again,
>it isn't something that is
>to be forced upon people.

It's your right, but don't expect people to applaud you for it. Especially with that twisted definition of 'earning'.
Like other workers don't 'earn' a decent life ?

>But is it MY personal problem
>or responsibility that they are
>going through what they are
>going through? Should I
>be forced by government to
>give up my possessions in
>order to give it to
>them? Should I force
>people to do that?
>NO.

Who said 'give up your possessions' ?
Redistribution is something completely different.

>I know people get down on
>their luck, believe me, I've
>been there.

Oh yeah ? How ?

>But I
>also know that you don't
>have to be in that
>same spot for the rest
>of your life, you can
>move up. Plenty of
>people have done so, and
>there is nothing stopping me
>or anyone else in following
>their footsteps. It's called
>OPTIMISM.

It's called being naive. Just cos you made it, means everybody can, and i they don't they only have themselves to blame ? Right... That's just ignorance.

>>That's not a 'political opinion' (it
>>doesn't make me socialist), it's
>>called REALITY. All you
>>need to do to realize
>>this is LOOK AROUND and
>>stop being so conceited and
>>selfish.
>
>It's called being a pessimist.
>That's far from reality.
>The whole fact that this
>country, whether you feel it's
>exploitive or not, rose from
>being a startup country to
>the most powerful nation in
>the world shows that your
>"reality" is a lie.

How does the US rise to power make the exploitation of other people a lie ?

Especially when both are directly related ?


More later,

krewc

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