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Topic subjectfascism rears its ugly head
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=22571&mesg_id=22616
22616, fascism rears its ugly head
Posted by krewcial, Fri Aug-11-00 08:43 AM
>>Plus : it's more than just
>>'taxes'. Cutting down on
>>welfare and directing those 'savings'
>>to the military benefits certain
>But that also helps out the
>country again, as we would
>be ready if a conflict
>breaks out. Besides the
>military is the weakest it's
>ever been for any respective
>American time period. Right
>now we wouldn't even be
>ready to fight Iraq.

Really ? You actually believe everything the institutionalised press tells you ?

America is by far the strongest military power in the world today. All this nonsense about terrorists like Osama Bin Laden is to make you believe your money needs to be invested in more hi tech weaponry. The enemy used to be the 'commies', but since the SU fell apart and China is your big buddy now (for its huge internal market), that's no longer a sales argument for an increased financial transfer of public money to the military.

>A national defense is important
>in protecting the US and
>it's interests.

Good, keep on repeating what they tell you.

>If a road needs to be
>constructed/fixed, that comes from public
>dollars. If government buildings
>needs to be constructed/fixed, that
>comes from public dollars.
>In other words, that's what
>public dollars are for.
>It's to support the public
>as a whole.

Roads don't support the public as a whole. It also enables companies to transport goods. Goods that bring in money. Goods that are being transported in heavy trucks that damage those same roads. Damage which is being repaired with public money, while that same public didn't cause the damage.

This is just ONE small example of how private interests are being funded with public money.

>Of course. National security and
>defense is one of the
>most important measures in elections,
>if not THE most important.
>Why you think the
>Republicans get elected often?
>Because Regan, Nixon, Bush, and
>Eisenhower are considered better at
>this issue than their respective
>Democratic opponents in the election.

You completely missed my point. I was referring to the flow of public money to private businesses, not national defense.

>>Those representatives are NOT democratically elected
>>(how many people go out
>>and vote ?) Unless
>>all citizens went out to
>>vote (and even then) it's
>>not democracy.

>Now that's really naive. You
>actually think there is going
>to be 100% turnout to
>the polls??? The only
>way you're going to do
>that is by force.
>And you say, "and even
>then" it's not democracy.

>Well how can you provide
>effective democracy then? You
>got to have some kind
>of idea on how to
>implement this before you just
>go all out on these
>Green Party initiatives that you

Does this mean you're an expert in empoverishment exploitation, pillage and genocide, since you support the current structure/system ?

I have a few ideas, mostly based on Noam Chomsky's views. If you want more info, you can check this link :


Chomsky discusses all topics we've touched upon.

He elaborates more than I can do here and does a much better job at it.

>But once again, it is not
>the US's job to continously
>intervene in foreign countries's domestic
>affairs. We have no
>soverignity in them.

I agree that's not what the US SHOULD do, but unfortunately reality is slightly different...

I hope you at least see this ?

>>Those who do persist, are labelled
>>illegal or persecuted/intimidated/killed.
>Since when? Who has been
>imprisioned for trying to improve
>voter registration and political awareness?

Malcolm X, MLK, several Black Panthers, MOVE-members, union workers, ... and that's just a few.

>>There's plenty of studies illustrating the
>>reasons why people don't have
>>access to education.
>Those studies are wrong.

All of them ? You must live in an easy world, where every single thing that doesn't fit into your logic is 'wrong' ...

>Anyone in this country
>that wants to learn how
>to read, can. Anyone
>that wants a diploma, can.
> Anyone that wants to
>go to college, can.

No comment. You're definitely an alien.

>We cannot be held responsible
>for the rest of the

Again : not in an ideal world, but the US does nothing BUT acting like they're responsible for the rest of the world in reality.

What sense do your remarks make when it has nothing to do with reality.

What if we all had green skin and were 4 metres tall ?
What if I had 4 dicks ?
What if ...

I'm talking about PLANET EARTH NOW.
Not some abstract theoretical vision of a conservative US that doesn't bother the rest of the world.

>>What about sweatshop and plantation workers
>>in Guatemala ? They're
>>forced to give up (a
>>part of) their life (not
>>even luxury) to enable your
>>But that's not a problem, since
>>they're not Americans, right ?
>Right. Hold the Guatemala government
>accountable for allowing such practices.
>You can't help people
>who don't help themselves.

Okay, then be consequent, and no longer buy products that have been made in foreign countries.
Becos, by buying those, you're part of the oppression and exploitation of the workers over there. Since you don't want to be involved and only want to discuss the US, be consequent.

>>And if you have the money
>>to pay for it (minor
>>detail). Then of course,
>>if you don't have any
>>money, that's probably your own
>>fault, right ?
>Sure is.

This, my friend, is why I call you a fascist.

>>>Well duh, the things taught in
>>>school are designed to reflect
>>>the society we are in.
>>>It's a school, not
>>>a brain washing scheme.
>>Then why should a school in
>>a democratic society not reflect
>>democratic idea(l)s ?
>>Which means you just took back
>>your criticism of Nader on
>>this point ?
>Nope. Because there is a difference
>between brainwashing and education.
>The problem is that you
>want to tell children of
>the greatness of democracy, instead
>of telling both sides of
>the story.

Oh, you wanna talk about both sides ? No problem !

How much did school/media tell you about the peace proposals during the Israeli/Palestina conflict, all vetoed by the US ?

How much did school tell you about the US mass genocide in Vietnam ? Raping of women, pillaging of villages, destroying of agricultural infrastructure and economy ?

How much did school teach you about the enslavement of Africans ?

How much did school tell you about the marginalizing, killing and getto-ing of the original Americans (Indians) ?

How much does school inform our children today about the cancerous effects of food that's filled with hormones ? Are students being told about vegetarianism ?

How much unbiased info do children get about communism/socialism today ?


See, you want to criticize me, without realizing that you're actually talking about TODAY, which is supposed to be such an ideal system.

>NO, you sure don't. If
>they aren't directly involved with
>the abuses that goes in
>in international affairs, then they
>aren't to be held accountable
>for them. You don't
>have any right to tell
>anyone what to do/believe in
>just like I don't have
>any right to tell you
>what to do/believe in.

>Just because you think it's
>wrong does not mean you
>or anyone else have a
>right to control the actions
>of other people. If
>that was the case, then
>everyone in Western civilization should
>be punished, because we all
>have had some advantage gained,
>regardless what race, in the
>historical oppression of nations and
>groups in past time periods.
>Such an idea is
>not feasible.

No, you'd rather keep on punishing an overwhelming majority of poor people on a dialy basis, which is the case today.
When did I mention punishment anyway ?
All I'm saying is that there's enough wealth generated

I haven't even mentioned anything revolutionary. Small changes that most of us won't even feel in their budget can make a big difference on a worldwide scale.

What people like you and me need to realize is that a lot of our luxury is ONLY POSSIBLE becos of the exploitation of a mass amount of people.

If you're a little concerned about human rights and other people, that is hard to accept.

On the other hand, if you don't believe in the concept of a 'community' and rely solely on individuality and some survival-of-the-fittest logic, it's no wonder you act like a selfish person.

Basically, you're saying that it's like this because people are too lazy or too stupid, whereas I simply SEE that some people don't have access to proper education or upwards social mobility simply cos they're born in the 'wrong' place, or they got the 'wrong' amount of melanin.

That's not a 'political opinion' (it doesn't make me socialist), it's called REALITY. All you need to do to realize this is LOOK AROUND and stop being so conceited and selfish.

>>I guess you don't oppose kidnapping
>>and prostituting children either ?
>Those are DIRECT crimes. However,
>you can't hold the car
>company accountable that provided the
>car to the person who
>kidnapped someone.

Exploitation is not a crime ?
What is 'crime' to you ?
Simple example : when Belgium was occupied by Germany, it was not 'illegal' for German soldiers to rape women. But it still was a crime, if you dig what I'm sayin.

Or, maybe a clearer example to you : a slaveholder killing a slave in the US some 80 years ago was not doing anything illegal, but I still consider it a crime.

Therefor, if you have a country where the legislation allows crimes, the people fighting those are not criminals, the legislation itself is criminal.
Every person/company using that criminal legislation to its own benefit, is therefor an accomplice and criminal too.

That's just my opinion. But it means Nike is mos def to blame for using sweatshops to make clothes and sneakers.

>Your view on government,
>until you do such, is
>nothing more than a dream.

I'd rather have a dream than a nightmare.

>>Who's protecting me from big business
>>today ?

Nope. I can boycott some products, but I don't always have the info needed to make a good decision, basically cos companies are not open enough and there's no democratic control.

>>Who protects workers in the Third
>>World today ?

I guess you're an expert in these matters. How ?

Unions are a no-no in most countries, sometimes there's soldiers inside the plant, workers can hardly go to the toilet (if there are any in the first place) without being fined. Women are forced to have gyneacological examinations every month to check if they're not pregnant (Philippines). If they are, they get fired immediately, with no pay.

So, my question remains : who protects workers in the Third World today ?

>I will simply find another job,
>and until then I will
>save up, in case such
>an occasion comes up.
>However, if things get rough,
>I won't blame it on
>government because of my situation.

>I suggest you look up the
>definition of fascist. Fascism
>means advocation of the power
>of big government and suppression
>of the opposition through censorship
>and persecution.

I don't know what dictionary you use (probably Reagan's version), but this is what mine tells about fascism :

hypernationalist, authoritarian, antidemocratic political system

1) hypernationalist : you've said you only care about the US yourself,

2) authoritarian : I think the US record in external affairs, WTO, G8, UN, NAFTA is pretty obvious

3) antidemocratic : your signature says the US ain't a democracy ... plus the way you rant against Nader doesn't really give me the impression you're willing to give him a fair chance.

Fascism in Italy and Germany was absolute; it didn't allow any other ideology to co-exist. Same thing with the current imperialist capitalism that has stopped countries/communities to develop a different system for the past 30-50 years.

Examples aplenty : Cold War, US interventions in Chile, the assassination of Patrice Lumumba in Congo, Salvador Allende in Chile, the Contras in Nicaragua, ...

>Democracy is
>way closer to fascism than
>libertarian conservatism.

How ?
I really expect you to define these terms before comparing them that loosely.

>I suggest
>you look into the principles
>of Hitler and Mussolini.
>You'd be shocked.

Don't talk to me about Hitler or Mussolini. My family has experienced first hand what they stood for.

>You have had the pleasure of
>Expertise's posts.

Expertise in what ? Bourgeoisie ?




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