>>The most succesful in exploiting
>>the labour of many for
>>the benefit of the few?
>
>Obviously we are talking about any
>country that has had a
>King or an Aristocracy, France,
>England, Ashanti Kingdom, ..
>Definitely not America.

No, of course. No such thing as sweatshops or maquiladores.
The fact that American companies mainly exploit FOREIGN people instead of their own population doesn’t make it less worse to me.

>Our country has created
>an environment where the ills
>of the rest of the
>world aren't outside our doors
>everyday. The vast majority
>of Americans do not know
>what real hunger is.
>No American is worried about
>mortar shells or terrorist bombings.

No, but the vast majority of the so-called "Third World" knows real hunger, mainly cos of the way world trade is organised and structured. Which has a lot to do with the way the US chooses to go. G8, the WTO, World Bank, …

And while only few Americans have to worry about warfare, people all around this globe have been and ARE subject to US agression, whether it be military, economical, agricultural, political, ...

Nicaragua, Iraq, Chile, Congo, Italy, Mexico, Cuba, Colombia, Granada, ... Those are just a few.

> The most succesful
>>in creating maintaining the world
>>in an unprecedented state of
>>insecurity?
>
>Who is insecure?

Plenty of people in- and outside the US.
Start with the same countries I just mentioned.
Then add that other side of Philly Black Thought showed and other main US cities.

That should give you plenty of insecurity to keep you busy for a while.

Rio conference, non-proliferation, anti-mine resolution ? All of this contributes to the insecurity Mwanji referred to.

>>I'm not saying "things were better
>>before". I'm just asking what
>>the US system (ironically, based
>>on theories developed by Brits
>>and Frogs) is the most
>>succesful at.
>
>A better question, and shorter list
>would be things that we
>are the least successful at.

. accessible health care
. non racist police and institutions (AKA elementary human rights)
. no political prisoners
. separation religion/politics (the US is very heavily "Christian" inspired, swearing on the bible, references to God in presidential speeches, ...)
. war on drugs (Orwellian terminology)
. …
(I kept it short since you requested it) ;-)

>Making money for
>>Bill Gates? Bringing me an
>>amazing amount of pointless material
>>goods?
>
>Cheap grain and meat is definitely
>pointless.

Grain that has been engineered genetically without even considering the possible long term effects of it.
Meat filled with hormones, meat we won't even allow in Europe since it carries big risks for people's health. (KRS, "Beef")

Plus your grain is so cheap since it's heavily funded with public money, and it's sold on a closed market with heavy tarrif barriers for any non-Western producers. Which means it “coincidentally” also destroys foreign economies, which makes it easier for American companies to take over these industries and businesses and make those same people they empoverished work for them at (what a surprise !) LOW wages.

>>Providing millions of people
>>with demeaning and uninteresting jobs?
>
>What does Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea,
>or Malaysia have to do
>with this?

The US wellbeing and prosperity is largely built on the US companies income, which a lot of them generate through sweatshop/low wage labour or abuse of non existing environmental legislation in these and similar countries.

Same thing is true about my relative wellbeing and luxury (even though I don’t live in the US, I still benefit). But at least I’m aware of this, and I try to do something about it.

>No one asked me to
>join this society. I
>was born into it.

You DO have a choice to stay or leave. A lot of people around me don't know another way of life than to take profit of other people and be ignorant, does that leave me with no choice but to do the same too ?

You have a choice. Don't like the fact that Indonesian/African/... people are a part of your society ? Either leave or kill them.

>2 kids from the worst
>ghetto in the states can
>have 2 completely different futures.

I agree, but Expertise claims that their futures will solely depend on their individual actions, and has NOTHING to do with any structural processes or injustices that exist. Whereas I (and mke too, I think) try to say that there are a lot of problems that stop ambitious and hard working people to make it, and that they can do nothing about, cos they don't have any access to power, or cos the laws that should guarantee free access to all are are not applied.

What I'm also trying to show is that you can have the best laws in the world, but if they aren't applied every single time (not just ‘every now and then’, that’s not a ‘law’, that’s ‘coincidence’) they're worthless . To make sure all laws are applied, you need some form of control. I think this should be democratic control (not necessarily a referendum, but an appropriate representation of people's wishes).

What alternative do you have for controlling how laws are applied ? Companies ?

>We live together because our culture
>forces us to. From
>the very beginning of life
>we are forced to include
>other people within our lives.

Maybe that also has to do with the fact that humans are social animals. We don't learn ourselves how to survive. Most of what we know is the result of socialisation, which can only take place in groups (min. 2 people).

>It is an axiom. How
>is everyone not an individual?
>
>What really needs to be said
>is that all individuals are
>not going to agree on
>the right course of action.

This would be true, if at least every person had access to expressing what they think in the first place. Everyone IS an individual, but not everyone is RECOGNIZED as such.

I can be as individual as I want, but if I don’t get to vote (or any other decent means of input), or get shot when I try to set up a union in my factory, people stop being individuals. Why ? Cos people rather be exploited but alive, than free and dead.

>>This too is great (I do
>>recognise when you say something
>>true). However, do you realise
>>that the way we (Westerners)
>>live everyday hurts and has
>>hurt millions of people around
>>the globe?
>
>How so?

Go back to the top of my reply. Our relative wealth is generated through the structural exploitation of others.

Unfair world trade, G8, World Bank, WTO, …

>It's called foreign aid, social security,
>and welfare. My tax
>dollars go to all sorts
>of things I might, or
>might not approve of.

Foreign aid = charity ? Wow. Did you know that most foreign aid is paid some way, by the country that gets it ? Did you know that most foreign aid benefits US/Western companies, and very often not the foreign population at all ?

Social security and welfare are not charity. Do you already know today that you’ll never have to use it ? If so, congratulations Mr. Nostradamus. You pay a little money now to cover the much bigger expenses made later whenever you’ll be hospitalized (at least that’s how it works over here).


>>Didn't think so.
>>Maybe a more relevant example of
>>what you are trying to
>>say would be: Why should
>>I (speaking of myself, as
>>a member of the middle-class)
>>be forced (through taxes) to
>>pay for a hospital in
>>some poor area of my
>>country that I will never
>>go to?
>
>Exactly. Now you're coming around.

Maybe this is an answer : becos people in a complete different area than yours helped paying for the hospital/doctor/nurse when you were born ? Or do you regret that too ?

Or, a variation : why does Nike build a factory in some other country, why don’t they provide people with jobs here ? Strange you’re not struggling with this question.
Well, so is health care. A service is a product too.
What ? You’d rather pay the moment you really need it. Okay, but then prepare to pay the actual price. Do you know how much a medical scanner actually costs ?
You’d better start saving now if you want to be able to afford it. Uhm, maybe you are already saving right now, through paying taxes ?

We’ll talk again the day you’re seriously ill and can’t afford your medicine or therapy.

>Most
>people would agree with choice,
>and most would also think
>that a 7 month old
>fetus is also a person.

I don’t know the US legislation, but I’d be very surprised if abortion is allowed with a 7 month old foetus. The risks are much too big for both mother and child, and a 7 month foetus is definitely a ‘person’ to me.
If the US allow abortion up till the 7th month, I think that’s pretty sick and can be called ‘murder’ indeed.

>Or should you leave the uneducated
>masses with the nuclear launch
>controls?

The real question is : would there be any nuclear launch controls if there had been democracy in the US ?

krewc

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