What do you think!!!

They are here already. What are you gonna do kick them out?? Whites purchase about 3/4 of hip hop albums. Without them you wouldn't be hearing much after your favorite groups get dropped from their labels. Why does it matter what color someone is? If you like the music, listen to it. Why do you have to be a certain color or race? I hope you aren't trying to start shit with this post. There is alot of subtle racism on this message board. I really don't like it. You don't come right out and say racist things, but subconsciously many of you have some racism issues you need to deal with. Peace.

No,
I think hip-hop is a form of music that should bridge cultures together. I just wanted to get other peoples opinions on it. I think that hip-hop as a music art form still has a long way to go before it accomplises all it can. It is unfortunate that white hip-hop MC's, such as Slim Shady, need to change there style, (from Infinate) in order to gain mainstream reconition. I feel that Slim is very talented but he is pigion-holed in what he can do because of the color of his skin. He has to be a "shock" rapper, a gimic that he has had to adopt only because he was white. If Slim tried to come off like Mos Def or Common, he would not be accepted by either the black or white community. With rappers like Mr.Eon, RA the Rugged Man, etc I feel that white performers are able to mantain street cred, (like 3rd Bass, etc before them) but I do not think mainstream America will every except them the way Slim as been.

"When I perform it's just coffee shop chicks and white dudes" Common
"But know the white kids like it so they tell me I can buy it, but as soon as I get on the mic it's like the night gets silent" Slim Shady

It doesn't.

Black culture doesn't need whites in order to flourish. Its not racist to say that, its true. I would hope that fact that some black acts wouldn't be on white labels would mean that like black gospel, black labels would pick up the ball & run. Our community shouldn't be like Arnold from Different Strokes, we shouldn't need white benefactors especially if it going to end up where they think we can't survive without them. How fucked up is that.

white folks getting rich off of Black folks once again......

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

Cause I'm sure I saw the same thing in the Lesson.

A better question for this forum, is "Can white folks be down with for the 'cause'?"

Can you trust the trustifundian who marches for Mumia? How about Rage against the Machine. They talk the talk, and walk the walk, but they don't musically appeal to oppressed people.

But now that I think about it, if I were to spread an anti-racist, anti-corporate message, who better to address than white kids, who grow up to run these corporations and govts?

In terms of hip hop, you can't stop them. They got you on the grass roots as consumers and at the top of the pyramid as label heads. What does it say about Dead Prez when Rifkind funds them? How indepedent and political can Blackstar be on Rawkus (which was started by the lesser of 2 sons of Rupert Murdoch). Is Mos Def better off on MCA?

As a local hip hop person, I know that the folks that come to see the artists that I like a lot are generally white. I'm not going to get the eastside to come out for KRS-1. Sure they're might be a few mc's from the hood come out, but the neighborhood ain't showing up in force unless it's Lil Keke, Wreckshop family, or UGK. It's not that I dislike the aforementioned artists, in fact I'm sure I've got tapes from all of them. It is very common in my town, and it seems all across the net, to hate on artists that appeal to everyone else in your locale. Usually the salt is based on things other than beats and rhymes, but even then the 'purists' are two-faced.

But the g-rap heads aren't cutting for things not from Houston, or not sounding like Houston. (we even got a song down here about how everyone wants to sound like the Screwed up Clique)

How effective is Aceyalone's words on black empowerment when his fan base is 99% white?

Ideally, everything would be like San Diego. I went to a Gavin there in 97 or 98, but the hip hop heads there were multi-colored, and multi-educated. IE not everyone at the 'underground' shows was from the burbs or in college.

But then again, I"m a hip hop nationalist, so I'm biased.

k. orr

...and I'll bet there are more "white" people talking with you about music you love than you think!

-TC

"How U ever gonna win if U let 'em all see your hand?
Playin' the queen don't work on your knees as if U understand." -Prince

The rest of the internet is far more ivory than Okayplayer.

so are you saying that white folks are intruding on our discussions?

Or are you saying OKP is better because there are a lot of white hip hop heads participating?

what's your point

k. orr

You got that white, I mean right. Just because hip hop is made by blacks doesn't mean all blacks listen to it. That is a bit of a stereotype. Black people should not feel "scared" or "intimidated" if someone who has lighter skin likes the music. That is total bullshit if they do. Same applies for a white person who thinks that blacks can't listen to heavy metal or other predominantly white music. (Whatever that means)

the same guy who said that we should "stick to quoting D'Angelo and Common and leave the Nirvana quotes to you" on a different thread?

And, said something about Dylan being a founding father of Hip Hop?

I think the heads on this board are ignoring you.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Yeah and I was right. That guy admitted he knew nothing about Nirvana. I didn't say I was going to quote Nirvana, but if I did, I would at least know what the song is about and know the correct lyrics. I didn't say Dylan was a forefather of hip hop, he was out 20 years before hip hop. He was a songwriter who seemed to be rapping in his songs. I just said I have thought about that before and it was interesting. Stop twisting my words around. Its nice you follow everything I say and remember it, it shows you care. Do I care if "HEADZ" ignore me? Nope. I'm not here to make friends or fit in with the "family." It's just a way to ease my boredom at work. Did Arrested Development write that song "Mr. Wendell" about you?

Genius, if you really don't care, then first, why post at all, and second, if you post and people take offense at what you say, why react?

Peace.

Because I have to stand up for ignorance. I have to clarify what I say because they twist my words around. If they are ignoring me then why are they always talking shit to me? Are you following me today Janey? Me and my shadow. :)

I'm your mother.

And like your mother, I'm trying to help you. Today's project is to help you see why people take offense at your posts. I think if you understood your impact you could stop receiving messages that are hostile and at which you take offense.

Let's start with this: It's usually a good idea not to call people names, call them liars or state or clearly imply that they are stupid.

In addition, it's usually a good idea to understand the distinction between an opinion and the truth. In virtually every situation, there's another side to the story and another opinion that's just as valid as yours.

Conversations are based on respect for other people having opinions that are different from yours. If you're not interested in a conversation but are only interested in confrontation, a good way to arrange that is by stating your opinions as if they were facts.

Peace.

Carry On.

********************************************************************************

BLACK_ENGINEER

Why you got-ta, act like, nigga, all the time? (C) Common


I hate being cheap, but I hate being broke more. - Fire

Carry On.

********************************************************************************

BLACK_ENGINEER

Why you got-ta, act like, nigga, all the time? (C) Common


I hate being cheap, but I hate being broke more. - Fire

from home-less, but I believe that, just like in that song, YOU could learn some things from the people on this site.

I don't read everything you type, but what I have noticed is that your responses tend to irratate me.

If I had the time or the energy, I would try and educate you, but I'm not sure if I could reach you, because you are so smart, being and the Gza and all.

So you continue to enjoy our culture from afar without having a understanding of it, besides it's just entertainment, right?!?!?

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

"Our Culture?" If you say so. I'm not even gonna bother responding to that. You educate me? On what? Nevermind.

Sorry Janey, but yesterday I was called a dumbass and an idiot first. It was all because Angieee thought I was talking about the entire okayplayer tour, when I was really only talking about chicago. We straightened everything out. Angieee was cool about it. Also, I don't call names unless someone calls me a name first. I'm glad you are looking after me though, I need someone to protect me from all the haters. Peace

Take another look at that thread. You called her a liar first.

Take a look at your first post on "What Are We?" -- that was very confrontational. You didn't address the issue at all. All you did was strongly imply that we were stupid because someone misquoted Kurt Cobain. You didn't enter the conversation until I posed specific questions to you.

Take a look at your first post on this thread. That was very confrontational as well.

You could avoid hassles and anger by paying attention to your impact.

Peace.

he gets it.

"Anonymity breeds courage" - Me

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

No I wrote it. I know that she called me an idiot first. But I don't care because its in the past!! Stop dwelling on this. I can't find the post otherwise I'd put the quote in here. It was probably deleted by our "friends".

he started it
did not
did too
did not
did too did too
did not did not did not
did did did did
not not not not


he he he, memories of childhood..........


----------------------------------------
error 404 - signature not found

Chill darlin. It's all over now. Move along, folks, nuthin to see here. We're all friends again. Or if not "friends," we are all respectful comrades once again.

Peace.

i hate it when i come up with something witty only to see shot down by horrible timing

okay, now i'll contribute to the post:

whites in hip-hop, what do i think?

i don't, really.

but why is it always "what about whites in hip-hop" rather than "what about asians/indians/etc" in hip-hop? Asians have as much claim to hip-hop as whites, but no one seems to care much about Asian MCs-they're too busy whining about Eminem. but then again, it's always been about whites vs. non-whites, so i guess i've answered my own question.

(sigh)

----------------------------------------
error 404 - signature not found

>"Our Culture?" If you say so. I'm not even gonna bother responding to that.

My point exactly. It's a urban thang, you wouldn't understand.

> You educate me? On what? Nevermind.

Everybody is a teacher, you'd be surprised what a person can teach you, if you let them. But I also realize that there are things that you could teach us, if you choose. I thought that was the purpose of this forum.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

What makes you think I am not "urban"? Because I don't say "That's my jawn!!!" or "ish" every 5 seconds? You are a little too self-righteous for my taste. You put down people that haven't been here as long as you. Why? I would never reveal anything personal about myself on the internet anyway. I have never revealed my race or where I live or any of that, so your assumptions are irrelevant. What do you mean by urban? The ghetto? If that's what you are talking about than I am glad I don't know about that, nor would I ever want to. You are not making sense to me. I am trying to teach you that in many of these posts there is alot of underlying racism and its just wrong. Its bad enough that everyday life is filled with racism, we don't have to put it on a message board where the communication is less direct and easily misunderstood. Why would someone start a post about white people in hip hop unless they were looking to start something? Its all because people have nothing better to do with their time than to think up absurd ideas and then post them. It doesn't make sense. Okayactivist is not a good name for this forum. No one is being active at all, they are just making bigger problems. They are sitting on their asses and typing. Sure I am doing the same thing as everyone, but I don't pretend to be Martin Luther King and preach to people online like you do. You are going to be my teacher? I think I'll drop that class.

>What makes you think I am
>not "urban"? Because I
>don't say "That's my jawn!!!"
>or "ish" every 5 seconds?
> You are a little
>too self-righteous for my taste.
> You put down people
>that haven't been here as
>long as you. Why?
> I would never reveal
>anything personal about myself on
>the internet anyway.
> I have never revealed
>my race or where I
>live or any of that,
>so your assumptions are irrelevant.
> What do you mean
>by urban? The ghetto?
> If that's what you
>are talking about than I
>am glad I don't know
>about that, nor would I
>ever want to. You
>are not making sense to
>me. I am trying
>to teach you that in
>many of these posts there
>is alot of underlying racism
>and its just wrong.
>Its bad enough that everyday
>life is filled with racism,
>we don't have to put
>it on a message board
>where the communication is less
>direct and easily misunderstood.
>Why would someone start a
>post about white people in
>hip hop unless they were
>looking to start something?
>Its all because people have
>nothing better to do with
>their time than to think
>up absurd ideas and then
>post them. It doesn't
>make sense. Okayactivist is not
>a good name for this
>forum. No one is
>being active at all, they
>are just making bigger problems.
> They are sitting on
>their asses and typing.
>Sure I am doing the
>same thing as everyone, but
>I don't pretend to be
>Martin Luther King and preach
>to people online like you
>do. You are going
>to be my teacher? I
>think I'll drop that class.
>

Yeah? And? What does that mean? You are the master of vagueness. Oh well. Talk to you later professor.

>>What makes you think I am not "urban"? Because I don't say "That's my jawn!!!" or "ish" every 5 seconds?

Actually, that's regional slang. I don't speak that way either, but I'm definately "urban". Your responses and words betray you, they tell the whole internet who you are.

>> You are a little too self-righteous for my taste.

So.

>> You put down people that haven't been here as long as you. Why?

I haven't "put down" anyone. But I will challenge a person who spouts out an opinion as fact when I know damn well they don't know what their talking about. How do you know I've been on the boards for a long time anyway?

>> I would never reveal anything personal about myself on the internet anyway. I have never revealed my race or where I live or any of that, so your assumptions are irrelevant.

To me, that's a sign of cowardice. But I'm willing to bet that my assumptions on you are correct.

>> What do you mean by urban? The ghetto? If that's what you are talking about than I am glad I don't know about that, nor would I ever want to.

But you make unfounded statements about urban culture and assumptions about it's music like you are an expert. If you are gonna listen to the music, at least RESPECT the culture that spawned it.

>>You are not making sense to me.

In all honesty, I'm fucking with you... and having a good time doing it.

>>I am trying to teach you that in many of these posts there is alot of underlying racism and its just wrong. Its bad enough that everyday life is filled with racism, we don't have to put it on a message board where the communication is less direct and easily misunderstood. Why would someone start a post about white people in hip hop unless they were looking to start something?

I think this is covered in the guidelines. Something about the board mirroring the real world.

>>Its all because people have nothing better to do with their time than to think up absurd ideas and then post them.

Talking about issues with a vast number of people with different views is positive, IMHO. How else will you find out what other people think?

>>It doesn't make sense. Okayactivist is not a good name for this forum. No one is being active at all, they are just making bigger problems.

Just like "them" people to start trouble by having a dicussion about the ills of the world. Besides, this thread is not your normal thread on this forum.

>> but I don't pretend to be Martin Luther King and preach to people online like you do.

I didn't realize that I was "preaching". I'm just fucking with you to get a response.

>> You are going to be my teacher? I think I'll drop that class.

And stay ignorant.

So be it. I've had my fun.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

I had fun too. Good thing I am not doing this during my free time. Its the best thing to do when your trapped in an office building staring out the window at a cloudless day. But I still don't understand what you mean. How am I ignorant of "your culture"? Like you invented it or something. Is there some wendell cuture that was just formed that likes to fuck with people? Oh well man. I'm not ignorant, and I guess I'll just leave you alone for now. I say serious things and you are fucking with me, glad you think its all a joke. How is it cowardly for me to not reveal my whole life story on the internet? I'm a coward for avoiding psycho assholes online? Good I'll be a safe coward then. I would like to know what I said about urban culture that pissed you off. In my opinion the only thing you know about urban culture is what you read in books or watch on "Good Times." I am done wasting my time with you, ignoramus.

to know you don't know, than to think you know everything.... and be wrong.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

not an attack just a question???????????

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

"mr. wendall" was the shit and that was a lame "joke"

Yeah and your momma put-downs were very hip in that Black Lily post! Those were revolutionary. What, did you just get out of third grade? Why are you so angry?! Not enough lovin'? Just chill.

I think many black folks, particularly young ones, are afraid that white folks will co-opt the culture and slowly push us out of "our" own creation, just like rock and jazz.

There certainly is historical precedent for this.

peace
k. orr

this is exactly the thought i have been trying to come up with but haven't been able to articulate...thank u for solving my maddness!
:)

>I think many black folks, particularly
>young ones, are afraid that
>white folks will co-opt the
>culture and slowly push us
>out of "our" own creation,
>just like rock and jazz.

were we "pushed out" or did we abandon when "they" moved in (kind of a "black flight" thing)? another way to describe the phenomenon is that when "others" attempt to assimilate, many people will flee to avoid the water-down effect. hmmmm...


------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

Even though I don't have any real facts to back it up, I think that we (Blacks) abandoned Jazz but Whites 'stole' Rock and Roll from us.

Anyone care to blow my admittedly unsupported opinion out the water? Books on the subject maybe?

Shaun G.

>Even though I don't have any
>real facts to back it
>up, I think that we
>(Blacks) abandoned Jazz but Whites
>'stole' Rock and Roll from
>us.

It is difficult to say, but here are some factors that I would think about.

- generational difference in taste of music. Perhaps our elders didn't want to get down to the jazz of their parents and embraced R&B.

- younger folks buy more records, and tend to control the radios in the household. Grown folks got more important things to think about.

- maybe it's a watering down effect mentioned earlier. I have seen plenty of cases where my local black folks won't show up, because a lot of white folks are going to be in the spot.

that's all I can think of

k. orr

your last point was important because its true. There are a lot of us that don't feel like dealing with caucasians in our leisure time. The general feeling is that they change the vibe of every event they attend in mass, in part because we often feel like we can't be ourselves when they are around. It touches on all these "what will they think" posts. nobody wants to be an example all the time & that is a constant pressure when you're a black person in a mixed/predominantly white setting.

we didn't abandon it we just switched gears and came up with something new. every musical we have white folks have tried to infiltrate so we always come with a response. scatting and rhyming are a direct respone to this infiltration we always got an answer and someting betta.
--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

That reimnds me. A lot of people say all music (I take that to mean all American music) is Black music. Weel I know most of it is (Rock-N-Roll, Jazz) but what about country? I happen to be an urban Black man who enjoys all music, including country, but I think it's safe to say that country music was started by European-Americans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

peese.

borrows a lot from rock and roll.

But when you start talking about Hank Williams Sr, I'm sure white folks can make an honest claim.

But who can really say that they weren't influenced by the bluesmen and negro spirituals of old.

k. orr

Brought to the US during the slave trade.

Maybe that aspect reflects a black influence, I can't really call much else though.

my Black cowboy uncle use to always say that country aint' nothing but the white folks blues.......
--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

as long as there are misguided people- the voice of the collective and the truthful expression of common experience will preside to lead men correctly... even if they are of European American descent and especially if they are under the impression that they are somehow "white"- i only hope at some point that Hip Hop will provide them with the direct understanding that they are not.

K

C'mon K, some of us are wimmin. :-)

If we're gonna be inclusive, let's be inclusive!

Peace.

men in the human sense- huMANkind

no disrespect, I see all human kind and all things as one- i rarely engage in gender specifics (barring character specifics)

K

That's why I put the smiley face. You know there's a good reason for gender inclusive language, too -- they did these studies where they asked little kids if they could grow up to be a ________ (fill in the blank) and little girls really did say no when asked if they could be a mailman and yes when asked if they could be a mail carrier. Language matters. I know you know, dearie. :-)

Peace.

Not to start shit, but to find out what the general opinion out there was. I only know how my community, my friends, and people who walk the same way of life as myself feel about this very sensitive subject. I wanted to get a feel how other people felt. I feel in is postive that so many different cultures "feel" Hip-Hop music and that it could be postive in helping fight the racism that still exists in America and abroad. It is unfortunate that while Black entertainers are among the most popular in the world in Music, Sports, and Acting, Blacks are still forced to endure racism from the same communities that support thier culture. I have been in Europe from the past month, and can not tell you how many times I have heard negitive things about Blacks from the same Teen-agers that have artists like Wyclef, The Roots, etc on their head-phone.

"Now you got white kids calling themselves Nigga" KRS-ONE

Ok man, that's good to hear. I wish you would have stated your opinion on the first post you made though. I was unsure as to what you expected us to say. I wasn't sure what angle you were coming from. But that's a shame that you have to see that in Europe. Most of those kids are probably only into hip hop because it is the "cool" thing to like now. I doubt they have been into it for 10 or more years like myself and I'm sure the majority of people on here. Some people like to follow trends and don't listen to music that has meaning to them personally. They just want to wear the gear and talk the slang and try their best to fit in. That would be the only way I could explain that aspect of racism as far as the kids who like hip-hop, but still disrespect blacks. It's sad. Also, maybe, and this is just speculation, that whites see hip hop artists on TV and think they are stars and different from everyday blacks on the street. They have that safe distance between them. Also a great deal of racism is taught by the child's parents and my rub off on them. This is also very unsettling. Its a very hard thing to understand or explain for me. My motto has always been: "Why hate someone based on the color of their skin, because when you really get to know them you can hate them for a whole bunch of other reasons." Oh well. That's enough rambling for me. I'm glad you cleared this up for me. Peace.

is what is happening in the States also. Other communites don't understand that Hip Hop is not JUST music. It's story telling and street reporting. It's the release of emotion, be it joy or anger through word/dance/writing. It's a feeling and a life-style.

I never equate race with Hip Hop, eventhough Blacks are/were the driving force of the culture. Hip Hop is the problems of inner city living, no matter what color you are. My little black nephew who lives in Middle America has no ideal what this culture is about, so he is a spectator like so many other people who think they validate it because they bought a fucking CD.

The belief that because they (Middle America) now accept Hip Hop as a art-form, therebye giving it validation, are the ones that piss me off.

I do think this forum is the right place for this question. The reason why you didn't get a lot of responses is beacause we just talked about it maybe a week or two before you posted it.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

I don't want to go into depth about this topic, because I posted some of my ideas over in The Lesson recently. But to repeat myself, the book Bomb The Suburbs by William Upski Wimsatt is the best thing I've ever read on this issue. It needs to be required reading for anybody of European American descent who listens to hip hop. I think race does matter, a lot more than some "white" hip hop heads realize. Upski asks some great questions in his writings, and is really fun to read.

peace,
murph

where can I get this?? I've heard about it but don't know where to find it...or No More Prisons for that matter...I live in Boston
Thanks

Both books are published by Soft Skull Press. They have a website:
http://www.softskull.com/
I think you can buy the books there. If that doesn't work for you, try independent or alternative book stores in your area. Any place that has a good selection of 'zines ought to carry Upski's stuff too.

peace,
murph

White people are always the ones to say that they want to stop racism, etc. etc., blah blah blah, especially all you so called "heads", but dont even act like if you went to a concert or a show and it was all black people, you wouldnt be watching yourself. Your such hypocrites, for real, its also funny how all you guys always say "stop talking about racial issues...." or whatever, and you may not realize it, but from a black perspective, its a constant reminder that they are different than mainstream society, you dont have that, you fit in, its not an issue to you. Damn this ignorance! Haha. Just live. Peace. Kamikazee.

Check my album "Societal Evolution"

I think there are some good points here, but I'm not sure how this relates to what I've said above. I'll just respond quickly to some of the points.

>Your such hypocrites, for real,
>its also funny how all
>you guys always say "stop
>talking about racial issues...."
>or whatever, and you may
>not realize it, but from
>a black perspective, its a
>constant reminder that they are
>different than mainstream society, you
>dont have that, you fit
>in, its not an issue
>to you.

I said the opposite. I think we need to talk about racial issues more. One of the reasons I appreciate hip-hop is that its one way I can learn about issues like racism that do not affect me on a daily basis the way they affect black people in this country. I'll never know what it is to walk in someone else's shoes, but hearing their P.O.V. makes me a more complete person, and I value that.

As for me feeling uncomfortable in a social situation surrounded by black folks, well I think you're probably right. We all grow up in a racist society, so there's a lot of it ingrained in us. Trying to overcome that socialization is a struggle most people don't care to undertake.

My post was designed to point out the work of Upski, who has talked at length about being "white" and participating in hip hop culture. Seems to me he's actually pretty concerned with the social and political causes that are affecting minorities in America, and he's the first person to admit his faults. If you read his books and feel differently, I'd love to hear why.

peace,
murph

Nah, man, it wasnt you, I was talkin to everybody, dont sweat it, I wasnt talkin to you at all, I jus happened to press reply on your statement, sorry for the mixup, peace... Kamikazee


******Yo, ask me bout Societal Evolution. Any body want it keep in touch, Ill be finished soon...Kamikazee

Hit me up if you wanna trade or sell vinyl, E-mail me or IM me if Im ever on, haha, I need more!! MORE!!! Im addicted, get at me and well connect. One love to all my vinyl addicts, keep playin the real ish, peace.

"You cant spend time twice..."-me

"The second somebody dies, somebody else is born, somebody celebratin while other people mourn, home may be home to you, but to me its foreign, even the matador dont pull the bull by the horn, one mans enemy is another mans friend, one mans poison is another mans medicine......"-Aceyalone

AIM:Kamikazee101******

...like i said in reply to a post in general boards, generalizations are dangerous. You are putting yourself in with those you are speaking of when you are stereotyping like that and presuming you know an entire "race" by the relatively few you have come in to contact with.

_____________________ .
Peace.
Inez AKA Starli

Inez24@prodigy.net
_____________________ .
"Starli/gets the party started
like a car key" -Juice

"At times my going forward seems
like retreat" -Common

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>White people are always the ones
>to say that they want
>to stop racism, etc. etc.,
>blah blah blah, especially all
>you so called "heads", but
>dont even act like if
>you went to a concert
>or a show and it
>was all black people, you
>wouldnt be watching yourself.

ahh hah...so when i'm at the african world festival and there are maybe only 5 others of 'european decent'...i should feel scared...how fucked up is that!?!?....so maybe i should be going with my black friends so i'll look 'down'...so i won't have to watch my back...that's cute...

>Your such hypocrites, for real,
>its also funny how all
>you guys always say "stop
>talking about racial issues...."
>or whatever, and you may
>not realize it, but from
>a black perspective, its a
>constant reminder that they are
>different than mainstream society, you
>dont have that, you fit
>in, its not an issue
>to you. Damn this
>ignorance! Haha. Just
>live. Peace. Kamikazee.

okay now, like starli said...you guys brings along 'us all'...and generalizations are very dangerous....and which 'white HEADZ' do you see up in here not engaging in racial issues?...

>
>
>Check my album "Societal Evolution"


Much love,
Kyle

vinyl junkies/cd confitionados...go here
http://www.recordkingdom.com

"i always tell people that fame is
nothing but a good publicist, while
talent is a genuine article..." ~ Pozi

Homegirl, I think you got me totally wrong, let me explain what Im sayin. So-called white "Heads", or whatever, will go to shows, and for the most part, alot of shows, Ive noticed white dudes and Asians at underground events any more, with a black guy interspersed throughout. So anyways..... They go to THOSE shows and its all to the G, but let them go to a real hip hop show. I mean, I go to Project Blowed down on Crenshaw in LA, and its ALL black folk. Maybe one or two whiteboys, but alot of time they be watchin themselves like "Oh shit, I better not laugh, theres some really big black guys, they might shoot me"

No lie, dont act like it dont happen. Its like the white heads only show up and act normal if its others like them. Im like damn, how you gon listen to a type of music and then be afraid of the people that primarily make it.

And to whoever said somethin like "White people aint stealin black music" I have nothing to say but: Rock n Roll, Jazz......(electronic),(hip hop).

Dont get me started, I love everybody, I love seein whiteboys that are comfortable around us, instead of them standin next to me thinkin "Oh shit, thats a big black Kunta Kinte muhfugga, I better hold my tongue, he might hang me, I better not say the wrong thing"

Lets jus love one another...... Peace.... Kamikazee




******Yo, ask me bout Societal Evolution. Any body want it keep in touch, Ill be finished soon...Kamikazee

Hit me up if you wanna trade or sell vinyl, E-mail me or IM me if Im ever on, haha, I need more!! MORE!!! Im addicted, get at me and well connect. One love to all my vinyl addicts, keep playin the real ish, peace.

"You cant spend time twice..."-me

"The second somebody dies, somebody else is born, somebody celebratin while other people mourn, home may be home to you, but to me its foreign, even the matador dont pull the bull by the horn, one mans enemy is another mans friend, one mans poison is another mans medicine......"-Aceyalone

AIM:Kamikazee101******

i went to school in iowa and the hip hop were mostly white but on occasion Black folks would come out and the whole demeanor, attitude, and actions of white folks would totally change when the environment was mostly Black. i've seen it, i've experienced it, and i agree with ya. i will probably go see j5, dilated, etc. in iowa city and it will be interesting to see the make-up of the audience.

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

a lot of people are saying white people buy 70% of rap music. i think what we have to understand is that that is an estimate. we really don't know who buys what. it's true that we can't kick white people out of the culture but that doesn't mean i have to like it. the truth of the matter is hip-hop culture does not need whites to flourish.

If hip hop does not need whites to flourish, then I guess you will have no record label then. You might as well be an independant artist. This comment about whites does not make sense. Sure hip hop will still be made and listened to. But how can you deny the fact that whites listen to and support hip hop and love the music. All of your gold selling artists will not be gold, as well as platinum artists would only go gold. Even if whites only bought 25% of the albums (which isn't true) your precious artists won't be selling that many albums or doing those videos. You are living in a dream world if you think whites don't impact hip hop. In the 80's wasn't it the goal of the artists to get everyone unified under hip hop music. To give people the real story about what's happening where the news people don't go. Hip hop would not be as popular as it is today without white people. Call me crazy, but this is the truth. Hip hop has always strived to be in the spotlight and be accepted by all races, and now that it is, we got ignorant people saying that whites should be banned from hip hop. This is just plain dumb.

LL Cool j had two consecutive platinum albums. and at the time not that many white people where listening to rap music. As usually white people feel like we need them to do something for us. Well i'm here to tell you thanks but no thanks.

I was wondering why you don't want white people to buy hip hop music (it seems like that's what you're suggesting). I mean, how is it that these listeners pose a threat to the integrity of the culture? I can understand arguing against the necessity of white-owned studios, investors, and the like. But on a consumer level, how is the white kid buying an album by LL something you say you "don't like"? I don't get it.

peace,
murph

The fact of the matter is that white people have a history of taking things over. Because it won't be enough to just listen. After a while they'll just take it over just like they always do. Furthmore white people buying hiphop threatens the integrity because the only kind of hiphop they want to listen to is the kind that perpetuates negative steretypes about black people. That's why the Hot Boyz sell more cds than Common.

You have some definite racial issues you need to deal with as well as some facts you need to learn before you start spittin out horseshit. White people take over hip hop? I don't think that will happen. Whites have better things to do than steal "your" hip hop away from you. Just because Eminem is making it big you think all hip hop is going to turn white? That's one rapper out of however many rappers there are in the industry. You must have taken some bad acid if you think what you are saying makes sense. Hot Boys sell more records than Common because its marketed more and is more watered down. I have never met one white person who likes the hot boys anyway, at least not where I am from. You are saying thanks but no thanks? That is just pure ignorance. Also, what have whites taken over? They are going to take over hip hop like they do for everything I think you said. This is so idiotic. Sorry DJ Scratch and Sniff I had to get in one last comment because this starberry person is really getting annoying.

Also Starberry, you forget about all the Asian, Hispanic, and other races of people who buy and listen to hip hop. Hip hop is huge in Japan. So you go and take all "your" hip hop away from everyone and keep it for yourself and go sell albums out of your trunk "in the hood". We'll see how well you do. Who do you think you are anyway? Grandmaster Flash or Afrika Bambaata? Did you invent hip hop? Are you a pioneer? If you ask any of these old school artists they will most likely say they don't care who listens to their music as long as people listen. You are just a racist who doesn't even deserve to listen to hip hop. That is it for me on this subject, I think I made my point.

Gza, why don't you just chill???? Take a valuim or something.

For the record, I don't agree with anything you just said. But, "You're quite hostile." (c) Public Enemy

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

I'm cooler than a cucumber in a bowl of hot sauce. Can't you see the stupidity of what she is saying?

Look Son I don't have time to play games with you. I see you getting your feelings in it. i guess i must have touched a nerve. You see i'm going to tell you right here and now i'm not like these other black people, Cause I'm not scared of you. If you answer my post i'm going to respond.

You shouldn't be scared of me. I'm not here to scare you, I'm here to make you think about the stupid things you are saying. You still have not proved a point. Why don't you read what I say before you reply with a dumb two sentence comment? Hip hop is all over the world and there is nothing you can do about it. Wake up! What is your problem? Are you really Ol Dirty Bastard? He's the only other person who has said what you are saying. But he is a crackhead, alchoholic. I don't know what your deal is. I'm done with you.

Mutha fucka please. Mutha fuck please. You better do what that bitch told you and calm the fuck down.

Please read my post "Deconstruction." Directly beneath here.

Which of you two is going to show us who is the bigger person?

Peace.

Keep 'em coming. You should give a speech at the next million man march. You are just so insightful.

You're the one who's angry. Not me. I have no problem with people of many races listening to hip hop. You, for some reason, do. Also, there's no need to call people bitches or MF's. That just proves my point even more. You are angry for some personal reason and you are taking your hostilities out on white people who like hip hop. What's the point?

have the opportunity to be the one who stops the hate.

Who's going to do it?

Bickering is for children. Are you children? Namecalling is for children. Are you children?

Is there a real ISSUE here to discuss?

Peace.

Alright whit boy. I'm just playing with your head. I'm going to leave you alone. I see your getting emotional.

You are assuming I'm white. I never made any reference to my race. Thank you for leaving me alone. I don't need to waste time talking to a racist like you anyway. Have a nice life. Watch out for them white boy crackas, they're comin to get you. They're gonna take over hip hop, better watch out!! Dumb ass.

Or I'm gonna sic BooDaah on you.

If you want to attack someone, attack me.

Peace.

How did I become the "bitch"?????

I agree with you, and I'm a "bitch"?????

I wouldn't call you out of your name. Why am I a "bitch"????

I require an apology.

Peace Starberry.

Pseudonym-less Wendell

that was directed at me. It's okay. Let's not get this started again.

Peace.

I'm not mad, just a little shocked. I don't think she was refering to you though.

But I'll drop it.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

We've been playing nicely for a while here, so let's look at some issues that are coming up again.

Discussion is about the issue, not about the person presenting the issue. Try saying "I think _____" rather than "You are ____." (And not "I think you are _____", although even that is better than a flat ad hominem attack, because at least it admits that your statement is an opinion).

Ask yourself what your OWN reaction is to the statements made, rather than judging the other person by the form of their communication. Everyone on this board is at a different level of communication, and each of us is responsible only for our own words. You can build or you can destroy. It's your choice.

When you notice that you are feeling a strong reaction to something that you read here, ask yourself what that tells you about YOURSELF rather than the other person. And the correct answer is NOT "I have learned that she's a ______." The correct answer goes more like "I notice that I feel attacked by this statement." Then ask yourself why, before responding to the post. Also, ask yourself whether you feel as though you have to have the last word and, if so, why? Why is that important to you? It's a natural impulse to want to be right, but we don't need to make others wrong to do so. There's room here for all opinions.

It is pretty much never appropriate to categorize another person as stupid. Don't forget that everyone on this board is a teacher for everyone else. Everyone on this board provides each one of us with an opportunity to learn more about ourselves, more about effective communication, more about consensus building even in the midst of disagreement. Remember that old adage "There's no such thing as a stupid question"? That holds here too, along with "There's no such thing as a stupid opinion." It is absolutely appropriate to believe that an opinion with which you disagree is the result of ignorance, but not stupidity. If you think that an opinion reflects ignorance, how will you enlighten the holder of that opinion? By attacking them? No. By teaching them. Who teaches the best? Think about people who have changed your mind about something, and think about the method of communication that they used. Generally, the best teachers are the best listeners.

That's my two cents.

Peace.

Janey, this is one of the most cogent posts I've ever seen.

The web, and the world, would be much better places if we could all take your words to heart.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

..I just felt the need to jock janey's post.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

blackboogeymanmanicmadmusicianmakerofnoise.. - black thought/roots

thanks for breaking it down like that. Something for everybody to marinate on. Peace.



"Said he want to talk about my mission, listen to my past lives...WORD!" -Jill Scott

"Never question who I am, God knows, and I know God personally. In fact, He lets me call Him Me." -Saul Williams

"Seek to understand, then to be understood." -Steven Covey

"My words may not convey just what I'm feelin'." -Vinia Mojica

I think I contributed to the above mudslinging with my response ("Why Not") to starberry. My intention with that post was to invite a meaningful discussion on HOW whites pose a threat to hip hop's integrity and future. Judging from the response starberry gave, I don't think I was successful in opening up the question as intended, but instead evoked an emotional response. Part of the reason for that was that my post was too confrontational. Instead of focusing on my perspective, I was questioning starberry's. You offer some great guidelines on how to engage in these kinds of discussions, which is definitely needed (and appreciated).

peace,
murph

I figure that every person on this site is enlightened except me, and you're all presenting to me the exact lessons that I need in order to gain enlightenment. And it's challenging me and really waking me up.

Thank you all and bless you all.

Peace.

I don't know what you want me to say. Let me ask you something why is that these white people on this board feel like they can say anything they want. If your going to say something foul to me your damn right I'm going to start mudslinging and cussing.

Why don't you hear any white people saying stuff like, blacks don't belong in sports or we don't need them to flourish? Aren't blacks taking over sports? Maybe we should get rid of them. Originally sports were all as you would say "white boys". Oh no!! White people everywhere, unite and keep the sports white!!! We can't have this!!

See how ignorant that sounds. That is exactly what you were saying except it was about another entertainment medium. Get what I am trying to say Star? What makes you so bitter?

Another thing, the civil war is over, the slaves were freed!! Did you hear about this?? Call up Marty Mcfly, get your ass in a time machine and join us in the year 2000!!! Ok? I know you won't even read this because you ignored all my other points, but I'm not the racist who needs help, you are.

I'm not going to try to explain or justify the behavior of Genius in this thread. Frankly, I agree with you that a lot of what he said to you was "foul" and I haven't deemed any of his posts worth responding to. I didn't intend to jump into the middle of your argument.

I was more interested in hearing what you thought about race and hiphop. I responded to your posts because a. I found your ideas on the issue interesting (if controversial) and b. I did not fully understand the argument behind what you were suggesting.

If you want to keep discussing these issues, that would be great. I got a lot out of reading k_orr's posts below, and am still trying to carry on a meaningful discussion of the issues you raised.

I think there is more to the issue than your argument with genius suggests, and

>I don't know what you want
>me to say. Let
>me ask you something why
>is that these white people
>on this board feel like
>they can say anything they
>want. If your going to
>say something foul to me
>your damn right I'm going
>to start mudslinging and cussing.

I hadn't finished composing that message. Just ignore the last sentence fragment - it was part of an incomplete thought anyway.

But, to finish up my message, I apologize if anything I've said here has insulted you, starberry. I'm just trying to get a handle on your perspective.

peace,
murph

How is stating an honest opinion harsh? I think calling people motherfuckers and bitches (like starberry did) is more harsh than anything I said. But we support racism and stupidity here, I forgot. :(

You go to a Cash Money show in Texas, it's mostly black and mexicans. You got a Common show, white folks run things.

My boy who worked at circuit city told me that most white and black folks bought what was popular. Since there were more white folks in the mix, they tended to out buy blacks and mexicans in every rap category.

But if you want to mistakenly believe that suburban and urban minorities are all supporting Common and the Roots, go on witcha bad self

peace
k. orr
house of phat beats

>I was wondering why you don't
>want white people to buy
>hip hop music

I don't think that is the real issue.

(it seems
>like that's what you're suggesting).
> I mean, how is
>it that these listeners
>pose a threat to the
>integrity of the culture?

I got a great story. Have you heard of Organized Konfusion and Hollywood Basic?

Basically back in 1994, Hollywood basic wanted to cash in on the Tag Team's Whoomp there it is. They were going to release a Mickey Mouse version of the popular song.

This happened to coincide with the release of Organized Konfusion's 2nd Lp.

Obviously the market for Stress the Extinction Agenda and Mickey Mouse are 2 different ones. Which one did they pursue, and which one fell by the wayside?

You guessed it. Going after white suburban children dollars they failed to promote what would be considered a classic album by many underground hip hop heads.

White businessmen ultimately see more money in the hands of white kids and their parents than they with black kids and black parents. Regardless of the fact that the black community is the core audience of all black music.

The white individual is apart of a larger white aggregate, the ideal target market. So it is very concievable that white record companies will cater to these listeners. I'm sure other folks in the industry can comment on how white folks dictate what music will be released and pushed on mass media outlets.

We also can't forget that the soundscan stats that run the industry are largely from suburban malls that cater to who, you guessed it, white folks.

Does it worry folks when white folks control black/brown folks art?

peace
k. orr
house of phat beats

Let me start by responding to the last point made:

>Does it worry folks when white
>folks control black/brown folks art?

Yes. Very much so. Especially an artform as dear to my heart as hip hop. White-owned corporations are not the curators I want in charge of such a valuable cultural treasure.

>>I was wondering why you don't
>>want white people to buy
>>hip hop music
>
>I don't think that is the
>real issue.

Agreed. I didn't ask the right question. What I'm really getting at is: HOW is the integrity and future of hip hop challenged by the participation of white folks. I don't ask because I doubt the validity of the claim, but because I want to understand the underlying argument.

>White businessmen ultimately see more money
>in the hands of white
>kids and their parents than
>they with black kids and
>black parents. Regardless of
>the fact that the black
>community is the core audience
>of all black music.

This is a good argument, and well put. I agree that the record companies are selling out the black community by targeting white audiences. As you acknowledge elsewhere, the actual core audience of an artist like Common or Mos Def seems to be significantly white (if you look at record sales and who goes to the concerts). Is this because they have not successfully addressed the black community in their music, or is it instead that the record companies are not trying to sell them to that market?

>The white individual is apart of
>a larger white aggregate, the
>ideal target market. So
>it is very concievable that
>white record companies will cater
>to these listeners. I'm
>sure other folks in the
>industry can comment on how
>white folks dictate what music
>will be released and pushed
>on mass media outlets.

Here's where I disagree somewhat. I don't think the consumers directly determine what the record labels (or the media) choose to market. To a large extent, we buy what we're told to buy. That's why Suburban White Kid owns the new Eminem and Jay-Z. That's also why I own Common and Mos Def. As target markets (or as individuals), we do not choose what music the corporations market toward us.

I see the music industry and their perpetuation of racism as the problem. I think the consumers, to an extent, are victims of a system that divides musical genres along racial lines and actively promotes some of the most negative racial stereotypes that exist in this country. That, to me, is the real problem challenging hip hop's integrity, and the future of the artform.

>We also can't forget that the
>soundscan stats that run the
>industry are largely from suburban
>malls that cater to who,
>you guessed it, white folks.

I can see where "white folks", collectively, exert undue influence over the music industry, and thus over hip hop. In fact, I tend to agree that racism on the part of white consumers contributes to the lowest-common-denominator approach that record companies seem to take when selling hip hop. It is seriously effed up that a strong, intelligent, politically conscious black man like Common can't be accepted by some white people. THAT is a problem.

And as for your point about the historical self-reliance of black musicians, I think that's awesome. But, as long as Sony, MCA and Columbia are writing all the paychecks, there's a problem in hip hop much bigger than the white consumer, and that's what I think should be the priority.

peace,
murph

>Agreed. I didn't ask the
>right question. What I'm
>really getting at is: HOW
>is the integrity and future
>of hip hop challenged by
>the participation of white folks.

It's mostly on the business aspect. But the business aspect is really the chokehold on the whole culture. There are no minority controlled distribution points. Hip Hop's greatest hope might be peer to peer networking. But we're seeing the net become more corporate controlled.

But outside of that, do black and white fans want the same thing out of their hip hop? Although Johnny and Jamal both got Eminem lp's, only Johny is supporting Limp Bizkit, Beasties, and Korn. The question I wonder is would a black group doing the same thing be received by either group.

As M&M paves the way, you will hear more and more white kids getting into the rock/rap, altering the scene even further. I would guess that we are about to see an explosion of Paul Barman's and El-P's on the underground.

Consider that many college radio dj's are also of white heritage and white folks tend to have a more forgiving ear when it comes to hip hop, you can see how their involvement will change the face of the underground, and then overground.

What happens when white kids don't need to hear black authenticity. We all realize that if eminem slowly drifts towards a kid rock style of hip hop, our music will forever change.

>As you acknowledge elsewhere, the
>actual core audience of an
>artist like Common or Mos
>Def seems to be significantly
>white (if you look at
>record sales and who goes
>to the concerts).

I would argue that it is the same for most artists that make it out of the hood. I live in Texas, and white kids of all flavors love the both the undergrounds. They love the Lil Keke's and Dj Screws (but don't go to those shows in droves), and they also cut for the Aceyalones and Hiero's. (Austin is the 2nd home of most fresh coast mc's). I would argue that these are the same set of white kids, but when it comes to album purchases they make up the same percentage.

If anything, at least in Texas, white kids support the popular hip hop (jay z and what not), as well as the underground hip hop. Black kids support the popular hip hop, and the local underground hip hop.

Is
>this because they have not
>successfully addressed the black community
>in their music,

I think that is a major reason. As a college radio dj and community hip hop person, I've met countless of underground and 'conscious' black mc's that were not at all interested in addressing African Americans. Another problem in my locale, is the promoters often don't go to the hoods to promote the shows.

But on an artistic level, at least with Austin black folks, the Aceyalone's and Kweli's of the world don't make "bumpable" music.

I personally think that most people listen to production first, and then pay attention to the image of an mc. Few folks actually listen to what folk say, despite the uncanny ability to memorize every word.

But you also have to realize I live in Texas. So my folks will listen to a goodie mob and an outkast. I've noticed on the net, most folks cut for Dre' and wonder why Big Boi is in the group, whereas in my town, it's about even.

or is
>it instead that the record
>companies are not trying to
>sell them to that market?

That is also a major element.

In fact when I really think about it, I don't know who is more at fault.

3 players, the artist, the label, and radio stations. Once the labels and the radio stations guage the public right, if you aren't the specific sub-set of artists you can't get out to the folks the primary way most folks hear you.

So your cd could be jamming and only 1.99, and folks will get into fights over what is being played on the commercial radio station.

>Here's where I disagree somewhat.
>I don't think the consumers
>directly determine what the record
>labels (or the media) choose
>to market.

I see where you're going. The labels and radio/video stations control the multiple choices. When one gets some love, then they pour on the saturation. So the consumer chooses, but it's actually the label that makes all the choices.

But labels are always looking for the killer app. So they will try new things. Rock Rap didn't work when black mc's rhymed over rock tracks(judgement night is what I'm thinking of, and Walk this way doesn't count), but it worked well when it was white mc's.

>I see the music industry and
>their perpetuation of racism as
>the problem. I think
>the consumers, to an extent,
>are victims of a system
>that divides musical genres along
>racial lines

I think the people do that. I know for a fact that Black folks didn't want to come to see Outkast because it was on the white side of town. I know white folks who wouldn't go see UGK, even when it was on the white side of town.

Most black heads hear something when a non-black mc comes up to the mic.

and actively promotes
>some of the most negative
>racial stereotypes that exist in
>this country.

I don't know about that either. The evil blackman is apart of the American psyche. Even if you eliminated the so-called negative black images from hip hop, you would still have to contend with them on the nightly news.

And by erasing them from the public debate you aren't addressing the issues that they bring up. That's my main problem with the so-called conscious hip hop heads.

>of white consumers contributes to
>the lowest-common-denominator approach that record
>companies seem to take when
>selling hip hop.

I don't know white people that well. I don't think Lance and Dirk by Snoop because they want to be gangstas. In some cases I've seen white kids ascribe to the ideals of a Snoop character, and in other cases I see a complete hatred for those ideals. I've walked into a Frat Party with a Rebel flag, while they were singing along to Gin and Juice. I've met aceyalone fans that thougth he was too intellectual for most black people. The intersection of race and hip hop leads to some weird places.

It
>is seriously effed up that
>a strong, intelligent, politically conscious
>black man like Common can't
>be accepted by some white
>people. THAT is a
>problem.

Is it a problem when Common is not accepted by black folks in his own neighborhood? How about Do or Die (the other side of chicago hip hop) are not accepted by white folks?

It's not cut and dried. The vast majority of black people could care less about Assata's song. And there are a lot of white people who do not believe in pimpology.

>And as for your point about
>the historical self-reliance of black
>musicians, I think that's awesome.

Let me turn you around on that. I'm talking about nowadays gospel, not the chitlin' circuit. Black folks used to be real "self reliant" because of segregation. Black banks, barbershops, grocery stores, mechanics... But things changed after desegregation. In essence that self reliance was forced, a means of survival. I have a feeling of white record execs really wanted to be in the black gospel business, black folks would have no real problems with it.

someone please tell me that I'm wrong.

peace
k. orr

Damn, this is a lot to think about. But, I'll add some more of my own thoughts.

>But outside of that, do black
>and white fans want the
>same thing out of their
>hip hop? Although Johnny
>and Jamal both got Eminem
>lp's, only Johny is supporting
>Limp Bizkit, Beasties, and Korn.
> The question I wonder
>is would a black group
>doing the same thing be
>received by either group.

This is an interesting point. My argument would be to a large extent, it's the record labels, radio, and MTV that define an audience's tastes strictly on racial boundaries. Eminem is played on modern rock radio and TRL along with the other white groups you mention. The problem is, a black group doing the same music would not be given the same platform from which to market their music. And I think that's institutional racism of the worst kind. Meanwhile, Eminem is played on BET and "urban" format radio, so he has access to a wide audience of black people.

>Consider that many college radio dj's
>are also of white heritage
>and white folks tend to
>have a more forgiving ear
>when it comes to hip
>hop, you can see how
>their involvement will change the
>face of the underground, and
>then overground.

I would argue that if college DJ's are giving a platform to artists who cannot get played on mainstream radio, they are performing a valuable service to hip hop regardless of their race. And I see how their playlist may affect the course of the hip hop underground, but I am not convinced it is necessarily detrimental. I mean, for every El-P record they play, they are playing multiple Aceyalone or Blackalicious tracks too. And, if the college DJ knows anything about the history of hip hop, they CAN have a positive impact by playing music that audiences wouldn't hear otherwise. I can see how these college DJs may not be the BEST curators for the traditions of hip hop, but I would suggest they play a positive role right now.

>What happens when white kids don't
>need to hear black authenticity.
> We all realize that
>if eminem slowly drifts towards
>a kid rock style of
>hip hop, our music will
>forever change.

I absolutely agree. The proliferation of white MCs could be problematic for hip hop's future. But I also don't particularly like the redefinition of "hip hop" along color lines which the media has begun doing. While on the surface, the media may be telling us "whites can't rap", they are effectively saying "blacks can't rock". Those distinctions based on race don't serve to keep white artists out of hip hop, but black artists out of white-dominated rock. So, the white rock audience's acceptance (which is a HUGE financial windfall) is being roped off from black artists (they aren't allowed in the door), while folks like Eminem, Kid Rock, etc. are cashing their paychecks and hanging up their platinum records!

>I personally think that most people
>listen to production first, and
>then pay attention to the
>image of an mc.
>Few folks actually listen to
>what folk say, despite the
>uncanny ability to memorize every
>word.

Interesting perspective you give here. I can see how an audience that places more emphasis on beats than rhymes might tend to overlook the underground cats. Incidentally, I heard Aceyalone's solo material for the first time on a college radio station in Austin (I was visiting a friend). They played "Headaches and Woes" well before his album dropped, and it had me open. Austin's a cool town, and it's probably more receptive to the underground than your average city.

>But labels are always looking for
>the killer app. So
>they will try new things.
> Rock Rap didn't work
>when black mc's rhymed over
>rock tracks(judgement night is what
>I'm thinking of, and Walk
>this way doesn't count), but
>it worked well when it
>was white mc's.

Absolutely, and Judgement Night was more impressive to me than anything Limp Bizkit has done! I would agree that racism on the part of the audiences probably contributed to its commercial failure. But it didn't get the media push given to Fred Durst's band. Remember when Bizkit came out, they were actually paying radio stations to put them on the playlist? I don't think the Judgement Night soundtrack got that level of support from the label.

>I think the people do that.
> I know for a
>fact that Black folks didn't
>want to come to see
>Outkast because it was on
>the white side of town.
> I know white folks
>who wouldn't go see UGK,
>even when it was on
>the white side of town.

This is a good point. People are afraid to go outside their own neighborhoods for all kinds of reasons. But, the deeper problem is "why do white and black people live on opposite sides of town". And this seems more institutional than personal. We seem to follow our racial labels in a lot of respects, from where we live to who we listen to, to how we worship. In this light, it 's a lot deeper than just our choice as consumers to support a particular type of music.

> The evil blackman is
>apart of the American psyche.
> Even if you eliminated
>the so-called negative black images
>from hip hop, you would
>still have to contend with
>them on the nightly news.
>And by erasing them from the
>public debate you aren't addressing
>the issues that they bring
>up. That's my main
>problem with the so-called conscious
>hip hop heads.

Well, I can see the value of addressing these stereotypes, but I would suggest that when music glorifies only certain images, this can be detrimental. The problem of racism at a larger scale is a point well taken. But I think that conscious MC's do address the very issues brought up by the images in mainstream music, and usually more effectively.

Now, I can appreciate the social value of NWA saying "F--- the Police" just as much as PE saying "Fight the Power". But, I have a hard time unwrapping the social value of "Bling Bling". I don't think gangstas are corrupting hip hop per se, but I think as long as white corporate control of hip hop persists, their message is going to dominate the public debate. And who would you rather have articulating the concerns of the black community on a national level: Cash Money or Dead Prez? Would you rather have artists who represent a social problem, or ones who articulate solutions?

>The intersection of race and
>hip hop leads to some
>weird places.

Definitely. White people listen to hip hop for all kinds of reasons, and a lot have some strange ideas they use to justify listening to or supporting artists who they ultimately disagree with or don't understand. And I can see how that goes for both sides of hip hop - underground and mainstream fans. My hope would be that the Aceyalone fan has a better shot (if they are really listening) of becoming enlightened about their own prejudices and racism. But I may be naive in thinking that.

>Is it a problem when Common
>is not accepted by black
>folks in his own neighborhood?
> How about Do or
>Die (the other side of
>chicago hip hop) are not
>accepted by white folks?
>It's not cut and dried.

True. But my point was this: white fans of rap who have a hard time accepting complex, intellectual black artists like Com are a bigger problem than those few who DO listen to him. He gives white fans some perspective, opens a few minds, etc. I understand how his lack of acceptance among black folks could be troubling. I'm not black, so I have a hard time understanding the various motivations for why they might not be supporting him in his neighborhood.

Personally, I have never listened to Do or Die. I don't know anything about them, but I suspect they are outside my area of interest. If someone gives me a good reason to support a group, I might do so. But I can't buy everything, so I pick and choose based on what I enjoy and what reflects my values. These reasons are certainly complex (not cut and dried), but they do tend to mirror overarching cultural trends.

>I have a
>feeling of white record execs
>really wanted to be in
>the black gospel business, black
>folks would have no real
>problems with it.

It seems to me that by demonstrating that they can succeed without the involvement of whites, black gospel artists are advancing the interests of their community, financially and socially. Even if their self-reliance comes more from necessity than some desire for control, the result still seems like a positive one. And perhaps it could serve as a viable model for hip hop artists who want to take some control of their music away from white-owned labels. Certainly it isn't far from some of the ideals I hear Black Star or Dead Prez talking about in their music...

Anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry if I went on too long, but I wanted to do justice to the complexity of the issues.

peace,
murph

>My argument would be to
>a large extent, it's the
>record labels, radio, and MTV
>that define an audience's tastes
>strictly on racial boundaries.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. I'm just addressing the uncomfortable aspects of the hip hop nation.

>The problem
>is, a black group doing
>the same music would
>not be given the same
>platform from which to market
>their music.

I don't agree with that. Hootie and The Blowfish(well the vocalist is black), Macy Gray, and the Urge(the vocalist is also black) are just some of the african american artists that get love on stations with mostly white listenership. Black folks can still "crossover" to white audiences. On the indy scene, I think Local H gets some love, as does P.O.D. Both of whom have black members but play for a largely white fan base.

My concern is how come a black punk/rock/jazz/blues/experimental noise group can't get love in their own community.

>I would argue that if college
>DJ's are giving a platform
>to artists who cannot get
>played on mainstream radio,

As a former college radio DJ, I can tell you that the community of college radio dj's has the same type of control that the commercial dj's have. The college radio hip hop environment is just a farm team for major label hip hop. But outside of the "play for adds" scheme that goes on in college radio hip hop, college radio still thinks the same. At least in the South, college/community radio is where east coast heads went to when the West took over. So in many college radio stations all over, local heads who have a more southern/western style of hip hop do not get any airtime, especially when compared to their east coast brethren.

Yungstar, who was on last summers hit "Wanna be a Baller", is the kind of artist that most commercial radio stations wouldn't touch initially. But college radio wouldn't even think of playing anything "gangsta-ish", which is being more defined as not following the 4 elements and thinking that De La soul is the dopest hip hop group ever.

Every city west of the Hudson has 2 undergrounds. One, the "true" heads, the 4 element folks, and the second, the "real" heads, as in what the community really listens to. In Austin, the "arctechtonics" represent the true heads. They freestyle, they sample, they listen to east coast and fresh coast records (acey, hiero, lix). Then there is the the "flo mob", who also freestyle, sample and play their own instruments, and listen to DJ Screw, Cash Money and No Limit.

I think i'll leave it at that for now. But in essence, the "real" heads embody more of what hip hop has always been about, and the "true" heads represent a fantastic ideal about what hip hop is.

In most places around the country, the "true" heads and that sub-genre of hip hop is what college radio supports.

Personally the reason I think college radio supports the "true" hip hop, as opposed to the "real" hip hop stems from their race. Unfortunately, most white folks don't have the privilege of growing up in neighborhoods where the "real" mc's and music comes from. If they get that music, it's often been filtered via commercial radio and commercial video. As a result when you look at the trend of what gets reported to trade magazines from college radio, you see a huge devotion of love to "true" hip hop.

There are some other institutional things about college radio and djing in general that also push folks to "true" hip hop, but that's better discussed on the Lesson.

>they
>are performing a valuable service
>to hip hop regardless of
>their race.

I think because of their race hip hop becomes very limited.

And I
>see how their playlist may
>affect the course of the
>hip hop underground, but I
>am not convinced it is
>necessarily detrimental.

Since you buy records you have a different opinion of the underground. When you get free records you start to realize how hip hop underground hegemony controls what is being said on underground records. For every El-P or Mf Doom, there are hundreds of Mike Zoot's and other second and third string mc's. It is just like the majors.

I mean,
>for every El-P record they
>play, they are playing multiple
>Aceyalone or Blackalicious tracks too.

But what I'm getting at is that the aceyalone and el-p styles of hip hop do not necessarily appeal to a large segment of black folks. Often most of the underground mc's in hip hop were outsiders to the core of black folks to begin with. (I think the same thing applies to underground heads in general, but we won't go into that).

> And, if the college
>DJ knows anything about the
>history of hip hop, they
>CAN have a positive impact
>by playing music that audiences
>wouldn't hear otherwise.

Like old records, no doubt.

>I absolutely agree. The proliferation
>of white MCs could be
>problematic for hip hop's future.
> But I also don't
>particularly like the redefinition of
>"hip hop" along color lines
>which the media has begun
>doing.

I honestly think that Kid Rock is doing something different than Run DMC did. I don't think that is the media, but a different perspective on the music. M&M is a different case. He's Chino Xl + the gravediggaz(or Esham or Bushwick bill) with better marketing. I think Em is still appealing to a more Afrikan idea of what hip hop is than Kid Rock/POD/Rage/Stereo Mc's.


>Interesting perspective you give here.
>I can see how an
>audience that places more emphasis
>on beats than rhymes might
>tend to overlook the underground
>cats.

I think that extends to both the over and underground audience. Gangstarr would be nowhere without Primo.

Incidentally, I heard
>Aceyalone's solo material for the
>first time on a college
>radio station in Austin (I
>was visiting a friend).
>They played "Headaches and Woes"
>well before his album dropped,
>and it had me open.

You were probably listening to my show. If this was between 1993-1999 you were probably listening to my radio show.

> Austin's a cool town,
>and it's probably more
>receptive to the underground than
>your average city.

It's the skaters. Despite only having one shop, the skate influence is huge.

>
>This is a good point.
>People are afraid to go
>outside their own neighborhoods for
>all kinds of reasons.
>But, the deeper problem is
>"why do white and black
>people live on opposite sides
>of town".

actually that is the real issue in and of itself.

>
>Well, I can see the value
>of addressing these stereotypes, but
>I would suggest that when
>music glorifies only certain images,

I don't think it ever does. I hear a lot more in Bling Bling than just a transcription of the Robb Report. But I've also been listening to Southern hip hop for most of my life. To those unfamiliar with the nuances coming from a Rawkus/Native Tongues/Okay player background, that is all they hear.

>But
>I think that conscious MC's
>do address the very issues
>brought up by the images
>in mainstream music, and usually
>more effectively.

I think most conscious mc's are preaching to the choir. The difference btw a blackstar of 2K and a brand nubian of 91 is that all of black america heard "Slow Down", whereas only black folks who watch Rap City heard mos and kweli.

> I don't think gangstas
>are corrupting hip hop per
>se, but I think as
>long as white corporate control
>of hip hop persists, their
>message is going to dominate
>the public debate.

White corporate control will push whatever sells. Remember all the popular conscious music from back in the day was on white record labels.

And
>who would you rather have
>articulating the concerns of the
>black community on a
>national level: Cash Money or
>Dead Prez?

Cash Money. They have people's ears. They aren't judgemental.

Would you rather
>have artists who represent a
>social problem,

Cash money represents a solution. black businessmen.

>True. But my point was
>this: white fans of rap
>who have a hard time
>accepting complex, intellectual black artists
>like Com are a bigger
>problem than those few who
>DO listen to him.

no doubt.

>I understand how
>his lack of acceptance among
> black folks could be
>troubling.

It doesn't seem to trouble him or anyone else in the conscious set.

I'm not black,
>so I have a hard
>time understanding the various motivations
>for why they might not
>be supporting him in his
>neighborhood.

It's not that conscious doesn't appeal to black folks, it's just that most of the conscious artists do not make music that the majority of black folks enjoy. If com, or mos, or any of those other cats were real about spreading a message, they would hook up with Swizz beats or Mani Fresh or Timbaland. but they aren't that interested.

Even
>if their self-reliance comes more
>from necessity than some desire
>for control, the result still
>seems like a positive one.

true dat.

> And perhaps it could
>serve as a viable model
>for hip hop artists who
>want to take some control
>of their music away from
>white-owned labels. Certainly it
>isn't far from some of
>the ideals I hear Black
>Star or Dead Prez talking
>about in their music...

But black star and Dp's could easily be on their own labels. They are in that hard place. They don't have the machinery to promote them like a Will Smith, but they would be just as popular as Mf Doom if they want independent.

>Anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts.
> Sorry if I went
>on too long, but I
>wanted to do justice to
>the complexity of the issues.

don't sweat it. The folks who punch out a 1 or 2 sentence reply often don't add to the conversation.



peace
k. orr

>I don't agree with that...
>Black folks can still "crossover"
>to white audiences. On
>the indy scene, I think
>Local H gets some love,
>as does P.O.D. Both
>of whom have black members
>but play for a largely
>white fan base.

But seeing how "crossing over" is often a necessity to survival in the white-corporate-controlled music world, it does deserve some attention. I'd say those you list are exceptions to the rule (there are others - Lenny Kravitz comes to mind). My biggest problem is with the concept of "alternative rock" radio. Seems like at its core the term really means "music for whites" - it's a genre without any clear musical definition. And these white bands often use hip hop to get over. This is really what I'm refering to, and I think it does hurt black hip hop artists who CANNOT get played on the same station that plays Eminem, Everlast, the Beasties, etc. all the time. I'll leave it at that.

>My concern is how come a
>black punk/rock/jazz/blues/experimental noise group can't
>get love in their own
>community.

I can see how this is a bigger issue to you. Ultimately, the walls that divide these genres, whether they are created by the listeners (as you have argued) or the "system" (as I put forth), are causing harm to the artistry and integrity of modern music. That won't be an easy problem to tackle as we look to the future.

>Every city west of the Hudson
>has 2 undergrounds. One,
>the "true" heads, the 4
>element folks, and the second,
>the "real" heads, as in
>what the community really listens to.

This is a good point. I've never thought of it in these terms. It makes me question some of the underlying reasons behind why I listen to the music I do. I tend to support "true" hip hop, though I would never put that label on it myself. This is actually a good way of understanding the racial divisions that exist within "underground" hip hop. Kind of hard to swallow on a personal level, but ultimately, I think you're right. Helps me understand a little better what you were saying over on the lesson about your disappointment with "underground" heads.

>White corporate control will push whatever
>sells. Remember all the
>popular conscious music from back
>in the day was on
>white record labels.

Popular in a relative sense. Those guys were lucky to go gold. When gangsta rap took over the sales figures tripled, didn't they? The big labels didn't keep the conscious artists around too long once G-funk hit. I think the labels seemed more interested in taking chances in the late 80's - early 90s. There was a lot more diversity in what they were promoting.

But I think their business practices were shady to say the least. A lot of times, they didn't give these artists time or space to grow, and this helped killed that era of hip hop just as much as the changing tastes of the audiences. Show me a conscious rapper from that era, and I'll show you someone who's bitter towards a record label. Maybe that's all sour grapes, but I suspect there's something to it.

>Cash money represents a solution.
>black businessmen.

Granted, that's true. And, I think with my background I tend to take for granted the importance of business in this context. I tend to have an immediate negative reaction to materialism, largely because it was so rampant in MY community growing up. I can actually see how valuable their example would be to black folks who are used to seeing whites in a position of financial power.

But, are Cash Money laying out a GOOD framework for other black businessmen to follow? For instance, what does buying platinum jewelry and having diamonds set in your teeth tell young people about money management? What does buying (ok, renting) expensive European sports cars say to their audience about putting money back into their own community? I can see that they have a value, but it seems like a limited one (no offense to master p).

I appreciate being able to have an open discussion about race here on okayplayer with people who know more than I do about these issues. I freely admit my limitations and my ignorance on some of these matters. I want to learn. That's pretty much the point of being here (not just on okayactivist, but on planet earth). Thanks again for the conversation

Oh, and that's funny that I heard your show in Austin. You know what they say, six degrees or whatever.

peace,
murph

> > My biggest problem is
>with the concept of "alternative
>rock" radio. Seems like
>at its core the term
>really means "music for whites"

In reality you could say that about everything in this country. Skateboards, Chess, Haute Couture....

>- it's a genre without
>any clear musical definition.
>And these white bands often
>use hip hop to get
>over.

funny you should use get over? Do you not think some of these guys are being sincere? Or it all a calculated scheme?

<I snipped everything I agreed with>

>though I would never put
>that label on it myself.

I like true and real because they are so often used and abused and never distinguished.

>Helps me understand a little
>better what you were saying
>over on the lesson about
>your disappointment with "underground" heads.

That didn't really have anything to do with race or underground heads per se. Just elitism in general.

>Popular in a relative sense.
>Those guys were lucky to
>go gold. When gangsta
>rap took over the sales
>figures tripled, didn't they?

Not compared to Hammer and Vanilla Ice. Right now I think the best selling hip hop album of all time is the Score at 17 million worldwide. And I wouldn't even relegate those to being anomalies, but I do get your point about the "hardening" of hip hop since Straight Outta Compton came out.

The fun in hip hop, digital underground, biz markie, is pretty much dead.

>The big labels didn't keep
>the conscious artists around too
>long once G-funk hit.

I wouldn't make that argument. After G-funk, the expectations rose for conscious artists. They couldn't sell the same #'s anymore.

>I think the labels seemed
>more interested in taking chances
>in the late 80's -
>early 90s. There was
>a lot more diversity in
>what they were promoting.

I would say the exact opposite. Before the Chronic, you had to be from NY. You had a few folks like NWA, Ice T, 2 live crew.. But by and large everything came from the 5 boroughs, and if it didn't it sounded like the 5 boroughs. Listen to old Geto Boys or Compton's Most wanted. When the Chronic dropped, it inspired a nation of mc's to get on the mic, as well as A&R's to look outside of the classic NY sound.

>But I think their business practices
>were shady to say the
>least.

All of business is like this. Unfortunately many of our mc's don't see any other aspect of the American economy.

A lot of
>times, they didn't give these
>artists time or space to
>grow,

Which is really an industry perspective on hip hop. Alanis Morrisette had 6 or 7 albums in a completely different style until she became the voice of female angst.

Maybe hip hop runs on novelty more so than image and artisan ship. That could either come from the fact that the audience always wants the latest and greatest, or that the industry pushes the latest and greatest.

> Show me a conscious
>rapper from that era, and
>I'll show you someone who's
>bitter towards a record label.

True dat.

>I tend to
>have an immediate negative reaction
>to materialism, largely because it
>was so rampant in MY
>community growing up. I
>can actually see how valuable
>their example would be to
>black folks who are used
>to seeing whites in a
>position of financial power.

And they talk about it ad nauseum. But they have all sorts of other elements to the music.

>But, are Cash Money laying out
>a GOOD framework for other
>black businessmen to follow?

Start local and have the majors come to you? Definitely.

>For instance, what does buying
>platinum jewelry and having diamonds
>set in your teeth tell
>young people about money management?

If you got it, flaunt it? This seems to be the main criticism people have against Cash Money. I don't really have an argument against it, other than to say it's economies of scale. The underground cat who spends 70 dollars on an triple 5 soul record bag is probably equivalent to BG hooking up a Navigator. (although a Bentley is a horsepower of a different color)

> What does buying (ok,
>renting) expensive European sports cars
>say to their audience about
>putting money back into their
>own community?

Perhaps that is not the best way. It certainly isn't the practice of most of middle and upper class black america in reference to the working class black america. It sets up an interesting pattern. Black mc's from suburban well educated households are interested in giving back to a community that they are not from, where as black mc's from the "hood" really want to move out of it as quick as possible.(despite what you hear about keeping it real)

>Oh, and that's funny that I
>heard your show in Austin.
> You know what they
>say, six degrees or whatever.

quite ill. they're talking about the K-Otix on the other board. I remember when they were called the Maad House. I used to buy my hip hop records from their producer.

peace
k. orr

Black Americans make up the 9th largest economy in the world. That's larger than some western european countries.

No Limit, Cash Money, Rap A Lot all made money in the hood well before they got to MTV. It is very arrogant to think that black dollars couldn't solely support black music.

If we take it to a different arena, black gospel is black owned on every level. Labels, presses, studios, distribution, concert halls, ... on down the line. Maybe you got a bebe and cece winans on a big lable, but the vast majority is within the black community.

Hip Hop has never needed whites for anything. The fact that white folks enjoy and benefit from hip hop is really a side event to what is really going on within the culture of black america. Don't even get me started on Tejano or Salsa and Merengue. Our Latino brethren have shown black folks that you do not need white money at all to flourish.

Not that I think white folks involved/controlling hip hop is necessarily a bad thing, but they aren't needed.

peace
k. orr
house of phat beats

.

All you white people go pick up a copy of Gil Scott Herons poem, "Aint no new thing" on Napster or on CD or something and take a real good listen to it. I am by no means a racist, I am a realist. You see, white people dont understand racism, because they are accepted by society.

Perfect example: "Why do we need BET? If there was a WET, wed be called racist!"

Ignorance. Put yourselves in a black persons shoes..... Now, turn on the TV. Channel 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and on and on and on. What do you see?? If your in black shoes, you see something that does not mirror who and what you are.

Imagine walking into a room with braids and everyone saying "Is that your real hair""Wow, how do they do that""Thats a work of art" And petting your hair as if you were a monkey on display in a window.

If you were in black shoes, you would constantly be reminded that you were different. But, you would have to deal with it, because "thats the way the world is" You would know all about white peoples hair and customs, because you have to, its shoved down your throat.

Dont talk to us about racism. You have 75 WET's, we got one to represent us.

And there are no truly multi racial channels, because you dont want to see that.

Sorry if the truth hurts. I still love you tho, I cant hate you, because you lack empathy.... Peace...... Kamikazee




******Yo, ask me bout Societal Evolution. Any body want it keep in touch, Ill be finished soon...Kamikazee

Hit me up if you wanna trade or sell vinyl, E-mail me or IM me if Im ever on, haha, I need more!! MORE!!! Im addicted, get at me and well connect. One love to all my vinyl addicts, keep playin the real ish, peace.

"You cant spend time twice..."-me

"The second somebody dies, somebody else is born, somebody celebratin while other people mourn, home may be home to you, but to me its foreign, even the matador dont pull the bull by the horn, one mans enemy is another mans friend, one mans poison is another mans medicine......"-Aceyalone

AIM:Kamikazee101******

amen....i agree with what you've said and to add to that. i get my views mostly from teh experiences i had on a predominately white college campus and a white college town and a white state, iowa. not until then had i breathed and lived white people. so my views aren't based upon simply being in a classroom with them. it's based upon talking to them on all levels and being their room mates and working with them and being their housemates. it was different than being home in a predominately Black environment where i eat, live, breathe, sleepp Black and only go to school with white or compete against them in competitions.
i speak from experience not hear say......
--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

i'm responding to this post having not read any other responses so i apologize if i am repeating already voiced views.
a. music is music and if u r a true music lover then u base your like dislike on the music, it's message, production, yadda yadda yadda.
b. so do white folks have a place....my personal opinion aside, they have a place b/c they are the ones who actually buys the music/clothes/advertising space/etc. They are the money behind the game. Black folks do bootleg, borrow it, tape it from the radio and various other means of getting our music through the "informal economy". but many of us also are po'(oor) and ain't got no loot to be buying no cds or tapes.
c. white folks exploiting Black people now that't bullshit. hip hop culture has blown the fuck up and white folks are the ones making most of the money. behind every puffy there is a clive davis getting paid stupidily off of Black culture and music. Yes I do feel that HIPHOP in its origin is Black and Latino/a. now if other folks and cultures want to listen then cool but i don't feel the need for us to give a special invitation and tend to white folks. just like white folks getting mad if common or d' shuns them at concerts. um, haven't u heard there music haven't you read their articles haven't u browsed this website. it is blatant and clear as day that common is homophobic and is into Black women. so why on God's green earth are you amazed when he doesn't want to touch yo hand or bring u on stage. u decided to be a common fame and buy his music although u KNEW how he feels about u. so why be amazed. (i apologize in advance for saying this with no tack)
d. we can't have shit to/for ourselves and that irritates the shit out of me.
e. it's like we need white folks to be/feel validated.
f. russel simmons talking about he has expanded and it's not only Black culture, to hell it isn't. It is our culture and others have bit off it and have joined the band wagon.
g. white folks listened to p.e. thinking they knew and understand the Black experience in america. folks listening to mos def talking about i luvs he. fool u don't know or understand.
okay i am going to stop here b/c i can snap off some more but i won't.
--------sig-----------
ms. nappiness
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

before i am accused of calling someone a fool on the boards. i am not pointing a finger at anyone on the boards i am talking in general.
-------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness