I the Illosopher charge the Dogma known as Christianity guilty of the following crimes:
1)Not representing the true teachings of the Prophet Jesus

2)Being a vehicle to enslave and pacify millions of Africas in the Western hemispere

3)Being a vehicle to pacify, colonize, and westernize non-white people throughout the globe, with no respect for indegenous cultures and religions.

4)Being sexist an exclusionary to women from the Genesis fairy tale to prohibition of women in leadership roles of the clergy, as well as presenting God as a male figure.

5)Being a tool to rationalize servitude in the fuedal and slavery epochs.

6)Being a tool to supress revolutionary practices, by promising a better afterlife while one suffers through this one, thereby selling desparate people a bag of dope oh! i mean hope.

7)Being a tool to keep people from finding strength in one self, but to find strenghth in a mystery God in the sky that will make everything OK, thereby creating a focus on the external as opposed to the internal (i.e. superficiality).

8)Being a accomplice in the underdevelopment of the non-western world.

9)Being racist and ethno-centrist in the forced conversion of non-white peoples, in the name of so-called misionary purposes under the idea they are civilizing savages.

10)Using fear of eternal damnation to ensure faith as opposed to spiritual enlightenment.

11)Having no basis to the natural world. How can a way of life be completely bankrupt of science the study of life?

opening arguments may now begin please state whether you are prosecuting Christanity or defending it by stating yourself as a prosecuting or defending attorney (or neutral party) we shall let the people decide if Christianity is guilty of these heinous crimes...

"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call onthe Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and
escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

---

When you building and miss the nail, is it the hammer's fault? people are people and as such will do all manner of sin to each other and attempt to justify it in any way they can. blame the followers not the faith.

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I heartily agree. People are people!

Ill, you apparently left your parents' religion -- why can't everyone else? I think that focusing on the religion is misguided. Focus on the individual or the evil that you're opposed to. Individuals make their own choices -- they're not being forced to stay in any religion, at least not in this country, at least not explicitly.

Peace.

I didn't leave my parents religion, i was raised in an Athiest home. My whole point is to get people to question themselves and where they stand and why they stand there. something i do to myself everyday.

Oh, so you completely bought into what your parents taught you without questioning? Huh, interesting.

Peace.

First you assume that i rejected my parents religion now you assume i acepted my parents philosophy, I do beleive in a higher i just separate myself from it. My idea of God, is the universe itself. I see God everyday when i look in the mirror, when see the sky, when i see a tree, that is all God.

"All things, material and spiritual, originate from one source and are related as if they were one family. The past, present, and future are all contained in the life force. The universe emerged and developed from one source, and we evolved through the optimal process of unification and harmonization." -The Art of Peace

What is the purpose of faith if the followers are foul. Blaze your own trail and find your own way. The easy road is one of convenience, the hard road is one travelled by the innovator seeking his own truth not one given to him. I do as the prophets have done, find my own way as question the way of nature and myself as well as others, like Moses in the presence of Pharoah, Jesus turning over tables in the Synogogue, Lao Tzu in the presence of the Gatekeeper. I choose to write the next chapter in the gospels of man as opposed to dwelling on the wisdom, i apply it, and yes i may be confrontational but the way is never polite. You people must be ye of little faith, you get so defensive when someone challenges your ideals...

The Way isn't always poilte...

>What is the purpose of faith
>if the followers are foul.

what good is a car if folk get in accidents? what good is living if all you're gonna do is die anyway? why take a drink if you're just gonna have to pee? what good are people if all we do is maim, kill, destroy, and sacrifice each other? you can't possibly not see that just because religion has no value in your life (so you seem to imply), that it might in others. while i will readily agree that there are foul christians (as well as athiests, muslims, buddists, and whatever else), I know that spirituality has been a major source of inspiration, insight, action, and togetherness for black people. and i cram to understand how you can rant and rave and not see that you're being the very thing you're supposedly arguing against (divisive, closed minded, judgemental, and arguementative). no one here has said: you better be this or that. no one here has called YOU foolish. believe what you like. it's my responsibility to pick my own path and roll with it, just like you. i can point you to where i'm trying to go, but if you decide to go another way, then that's on you. you've vacillated all over the place. first it was religion in general, then it was "western" christianity, now it's back to christianity as a whole. and for what? if you have information you want to share, share it. but you don't want to discuss in an effort to find common ground/goals or with the possibility that you might learn something. you've decided you're right and want to dance in an effort to show your superiority. i (and others) have said we'll pass, so just say what you want to say, and anyone who wants to refute will I'm sure, but all this soapboxing is tired.

>Blaze your own trail and
>find your own way.

exactly what has been said already by everybody. is this your ultimate point? the BIBLE says to do that very thing (study and show thyself approved).

>The easy road is one of
>convenience, the hard road is
>one travelled by the innovator
>seeking his own truth not
>one given to him.

you say it's easy, i say there is a certain amount of wisdom in not fighting battles that have already been fought. example: fire burns. your parents say "don't stick your hand in there, you get burned." what do you do? test it in the name of innovation? wisdom comes from knowing which battles to fight.

>I do as the prophets have
>done, find my own way
>as question the way of
>nature and myself as well
>as others, like Moses in
>the presence of Pharoah, Jesus
>turning over tables in the
>Synogogue, Lao Tzu in the
>presence of the Gatekeeper.

this is where you get on a slipper slope. you mention Moses and Jesus, from where do you get that information? why did you believe that that source was truthful? what else did that source have to say about those individuals? what have you chosen to ignore about their teachings? both of those individuals had a whole lot to say in regards to following God? What was the basis and ultimate goal of both of their teachings and "prophesies"? If you don't believe in what they had to say (or choose to ignore rather large chunks of it), then why use them as inspiration? this is why i say you're all over the place. you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.

>I choose to write the next
>chapter in the gospels of
>man as opposed to dwelling
>on the wisdom, i apply
>it, and yes i may
>be confrontational but the way
>is never polite.

writing the next chapter by the authority of whom? yours? gospel of man? what IS that exactly? you choose not to dwell on the wisdom huh? how can you act without understanding? as far as being confrontational, didn't Jesus (one of those "prophets" you mentioned earlier) mention teaching with love and respect?

>You people
>must be ye of little
>faith, you get so defensive
>when someone challenges your ideals...

"we people" aren't being defensive, we just realize the futility of "throwing pearls to pigs".

>The Way isn't always poilte...

Apparently yours isn't. So if you're bent on being IMPOLITE why bother arguing with you?

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I also think that most religions (Christianity included, but not exclusively Christianity) are supposed to help people uplift themselves. So the people in the religion are certainly going to be sinners, or foul, or unskillful or however we want to put it, because they're not perfect yet. But ideally, they've committed to increasing their goodness.

Also, with respect to people unquestioningly following any line of doctrine -- asking questions of you isn't being defensive, because you yourself say that people should question. And I note in another post that you have, apparently without question, followed the religious preference of your parents. So that's kind of interesting to me.

You're basically trying to get us all to agree with you and follow your way of thinking. Won't that lead to abuse, too? Won't we start persecuting people who are steadfast in their Christian beliefs? Because you certainly attack the religion, I can see that your followers would be happy to burn Christians at the stake, or whatever.

People are people.

Peace.

Good verse, Boodah.......

So I will take heed to the words of the God and not even argue this point.

THE BIBLE IS TRUTH........

Lata!!!!!!!!

Peace!!!!!!

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I have to throw my cards down and say, I know many a good christian but on a level of organised religion, I can't find fault with any of illosopher's charges.

religious folk here are prolly sick of defending your faiths, and feel you shouldn't have to. but I don't think illosopher's intentions are to come here and stir up sht, same as not every deacon is bent.

I feel like the questions are valid because it's many a christian that simply doesn't know any different, common religious defense being 'well, it works for me'. and you're good people, intelligent people - and that's fair.

just interpreted illosopher's viewpoint as being similar to questioning an addict who maintains that substanceofchoice is the angel that keeps him/her steadfast and carries him/her through each day. question is, does it?

we're beyond that stage, as a civilization, where you can present a set of rules to follow and respond to any reservations with because He said so. or inheritance/tradition, it worked for them. or if I have to explain you prolly wouldn't understand. etc.

can't accept that..but no disrespect's intended, just seeking simple clarity here and it would be cool if somebody with the knowledge/conviction could go indepth on some of those indictments or claim some of the blame.

my mother had strong christian convictions and I always envied the peace it brought her - I guess I've always wanted some of what she had, but it never happened. so here I am.
______________________________________

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>I have to throw my cards
>down and say, I know
>many a good christian but
>on a level of organised
>religion, I can't find fault
>with any of illosopher's charges.

compared to what? again, people are people. it's a sad thing to say, but many are calling themselves ""christain " without any real understanding of what it means to be "Christlike". Look again at his charges. Slip Black or white or Jew or Japenese or whatever where it says Chistian and the same will still hold to some degree. so again, what point is being made? christains aren't perfect? who said they were? and the leap he seems to be making is: Christians aren't perfect, so christianity is false and that is faulty.

>religious folk here are prolly sick
>of defending your faiths, and
>feel you shouldn't have to.

actually, christians are supposed to be willing to defend their faith to those with questions. but (as I've pointed out) we instructed to avoid arguing for the sake of arguement. if he asked: "why do you beieve what you do" in an effort to learn something it would be different, instead he seems to be saying saying: "these christians are foolish sheep, look at all the damage they've caused. but I'm smarter than that. watch me show you"

>but I don't think illosopher's
>intentions are to come here
>and stir up sht,

well then i wish you or he(?) could enlighten us, because with him spinning all over the place it's hard to get a bead on his point.

>I feel like the questions are
>valid

what questions? i see statements/accusations, am i missing something (i very well could be).

>because it's many a
>christian that simply doesn't know
>any different, common religious defense
>being 'well, it works for
>me'.

but my question is: why is that wrong, if that's their opinion? who is to say that the path they have chosen for themselves is "wrong"? now if one is attempting to explain and has no sound basis then they're faulty, but no one here brought this up, he did. i could dance with ill from now until. we could go back and forth, but to what end? i'm not gonna stop following Christ and follow illosophers "gospel", and he(?) seems quite intent on staying with histrain of thought, so ultimately whats the point?

>question is, does
>it?

that's a good question. a better qustion is: who am i to tell him that it isn't?

>we're beyond that stage, as a
>civilization, where you can present
>a set of rules to
>follow and respond to any
>reservations with because He said
>so.

who is He? God? beyond a "stage" in terms of how we relate to God? a key ingredient of ANY faith is ultimately gonna be summed up in those very words "because He/she/it said so". if you don't beleieve that they did then you gotta roll with whatever you decide. that is the choice that you're given.

>it worked for them.

this would spark a whole different discussion (which i alluded to in a previous response to illosopher). what's wrong with doing a thing that has worked? does every lesson need to be relearned?

>I have to explain you prolly
>wouldn't understand.

who here said that? the question here has mostly been: do you REALLY want to know? he can be told, but if he's not gonna listen why waste the breath?

>just seeking simple clarity here
>and it would be cool
>if somebody with the knowledge/conviction
>could go indepth on some
>of those indictments or claim
>some of the blame.

consider the "blame claimed". there have been a whole lot of christians who have done some foul things (including me), but just like my actions do not relect all of Black people neither to the bad actions of christains reflect directly upon the faith. if you have problems with the faith itself then say them, but if you have problems with the followers the only answer you're gonna get is people are people.

>I guess I've always wanted
>some of what she had,
>but it never happened. so
>here I am.

what did you do to get it? did you ask her? i'd love to continue, but i'd hate to jack this post.
again, if there are questions, ask them.
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I guess these sort of debates can't ever really happen..it's not even about you and you all know this - but how could it not be personal? that's what defines faith. and it can't be discussed because part of the puzzle is to hear detractors with a view of them as unschooled dividers. and that sort of conviction deals with absolutes and opposites..without God one is godless, absence of good is evil.

but even a scientist is a priest of sorts. you're right though, it's all in the interpretation, maybe illosopher just lacks tact. I saw the question as how do the more knowledgeable and self-reflective among you (christians) justify the weaknesses/corruptions in the doctrine to yourselves?

I mean, I only know illosopher as well as I know you or anybody here so I was responding based on my interpretation - hes not persecuting boodah or nushooz or your personal belief system. it's the entire thing that's being deemed faulty, what paul espoused mainly is under trial..what's resulted from that in Christ's name, was it the same as he taught originally?

>compared to what? again, people are
>people. it's a sad thing
>to say, but many are
>calling themselves ""christain " without
>any real understanding of what
>it means to be "Christlike".
>Look again at his charges.
>Slip Black or white or
>Jew or Japenese or whatever
>where it says Chistian and
>the same will still hold
>to some degree. so again,
>what point is being made?
>christains aren't perfect? who said
>they were? and the leap
>he seems to be making
>is: Christians aren't perfect, so
>christianity is false and that
>is faulty.

people are people but power is power..it's said that the cross is one of the biggest brand logos in the world - so what's behind it. and that's why this debate will/should reocurr, for as long as organised religion remains, and curious souls remain outside it.

>actually, christians are supposed to be
>willing to defend their faith
>to those with questions. but
>(as I've pointed out) we
>instructed to avoid arguing for
>the sake of arguement. if
>he asked: "why do you
>beieve what you do" in
>an effort to learn something
>it would be different, instead
>he seems to be saying
>saying: "these christians are foolish
>sheep, look at all the
>damage they've caused. but I'm
>smarter than that. watch me
>show you"

don't be like that, you know how people are..I'm guessing the intention is to find out if you ever questioned yourselves/faiths and to share any thoughts. a q&a in this usually results in direction to passages/quotes or incidents/emotions we can't all relate to (though some of us truly try).

>>but I don't think illosopher's
>>intentions are to come here
>>and stir up sht,
>
>well then i wish you or he(?) could enlighten
>us, because with him spinning all over
>the place it's hard to get a bead on his
>point.

I'm curious too if there is one, but such debates will continue to rage regardless.

>what questions? i see statements/accusations, am
>i missing something (i very well could be).

harsh views, but they're directed at the general institution, not each christian specifically. and like expertise said, a similar thread could be done on any number of things..religion seems a hotter potato than race..but to denounce cigarettes isn't to denigrate every smoker.

>but my question is: why is
>that wrong, if that's their
>opinion? who is to say
>that the path they have
>chosen for themselves is "wrong"?
>now if one is attempting
>to explain and has no
>sound basis then they're faulty,
>but no one here brought
>this up, he did. i
>could dance with ill from
>now until. we could go
>back and forth, but to
>what end? i'm not gonna
>stop following Christ and follow
>illosophers "gospel", and he(?) seems
>quite intent on staying with
>histrain of thought, so ultimately
>whats the point?

'there's the rub..' as shakespeare wrote, but do you have a sound basis with which to explain yourself? it's not about right or wrong like that..though I guess it is the wrong forum in some sense because you're all intelligent folks that have chosen, rather than accepted, paths..unlike many I know personally that are simply incapable of even concieving of viewing/leading their lives on any other terms - the planet is necessarily limited to your block.

>that's a good question. a better
>qustion is: who am i
>to tell him that it
>isn't?

an actively concerned party perhaps..dunno, I know what you mean. I keep resorting to these abstract metaphors..on my part, I just like to kick it with devout followers to establish if the faith isn't just another mystifying distracting 'outside' factor in a world of many. I've read much of the literature so a follower is like closest thing to the source.

>who is He? God? beyond a
>"stage" in terms of how
>we relate to God?

I just mean the reading materials and what we're given remains the same in every sense so how can it respond to life's organic nature..the way we relate to our own lives even has changed completely.

>key ingredient of ANY faith
>is ultimately gonna be summed
>up in those very words
>"because He/she/it said so". if
>you don't beleieve that they
>did then you gotta roll
>with whatever you decide.

shakespeare's unsolvable rub again..lemme just say here that it's not so much about christianity vs. othereligions. christianity's had by far the most impact on my life thus far, every school I ever attended, from grade to graduate, was named after a saint. it's prominent and it's why I'm interested. I guess illosopher has his own reasons/agenda that he'll eventually reveal.

>that is the choice that you're given.

those absolutes and opposites again.

>illosopher). what's wrong with doing
>a thing that has worked?
>does every lesson need to
>be relearned?

in spiritual terms, yes - I believe that, you've got start somewhere but you've need to start fresh.

>who here said that? the question
>here has mostly been: do
>you REALLY want to know?
>he can be told, but
>if he's not gonna listen
>why waste the breath?

and that first question works both ways..but is that 'rub' surmountable - are you just looking for somewhere to sink your teeth in or are we (and ill) just kicking it.

>consider the "blame claimed".

if only it were that simple..

>there have
>been a whole lot of
>christians who have done some
>foul things (including me), but
>just like my actions do
>not relect all of Black
>people neither to the bad
>actions of christains reflect directly
>upon the faith. if you
>have problems with the faith
>itself then say them, but
>if you have problems with
>the followers the only answer
>you're gonna get is people
>are people.

you're right..what bad actions DO reflect upon christians are those comitted to the faith itself, whenever, throughout time.

>what did you do to get it?

I was born, baptised, raised and educated in it so I guess I was always wondering what I got for doing it.

>did you ask her?

we discussed it all the time until her death, out of four I am/was the only 'hesitant' sibling. but I don't know what I/anybody wants from you all anyway. it's personal and there's a part of me that can't/won't find purchase, the part that says never be content/complacent. I guess I just related to what illosopher meant when he says it's not nature's way.
______________________________________

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>I guess these sort of debates
>can't ever really happen..

sure they can. but it's up to each who chooses to "debate" the topic to understand the pitfalls involved. simply, when discussing matters of faith or belief you're going to ultimately have to rely upon a basis for the discussion. for example, if a Christian believes that God exists and the person they are discussing with does not, then they will be arguing from two different spheres of understanding because there is not way to prove or disprove that issue. You either believe it or you don't. If neither is willing to give credence to the others viewpoint and resorts to rhetoric or personal attacks as their means of making a point the discussion will go downhill from there.

>that's what defines faith.

i agree. faith is belief put into action (you don't have faith in something you don't believe in). belief comes from an understanding of events/concepts. this understanding IS very personal, and that's why I, can't "convert" you or "save" anyone (and neither can nor anyone BUT God and you). all i can do is relate what i believe to be true based upon my experiences, teachings, and understanding and you do with that what you will.

>and it can't be discussed
>because part of the puzzle
>is to hear detractors with
>a view of them as
>unschooled dividers.

i agree. but the key is to discern whether a person is a detractor who disagrees, or someone who is just trying to "push buttons". one you deal with with kindness, the other you let rant and rave.

>but even a scientist is a
>priest of sorts.

i agree with this too. way back when i discussed how EVERYONE is a part of some religion (religion being defiined as a system of belief). to me what is called "science" is just another religion, because ultimately even the greatest scientist can't "prove anything" much less create something. this is why i look at the whole idea of "natural" as odd. because there are several different viewpoints as to what nature is anyway. ultimately you have to take someones word for it. but i digress...

>it's all in the
>interpretation, maybe illosopher just lacks
>tact.

by his(?) own admission politeness and tact isn't a particular concern. but the part about the interpretation is VERY true. one has to study for themselves all the information (or as much as they can) and decide what to do from there. similarly, we can't go all buck if someone decides that they want to act differently based upon their interpretation.

>how do the more
>knowledgeable and self-reflective among you
>(christians) justify the weaknesses/corruptions in
>the doctrine to yourselves?

personally, i don't see weaknesses (show me if you do) and as far as the "corruptions" i go back to my original suggestion that you can't blame the faith for the way people bastardize and misuse it. i say study for yourself instead of running with someone else's interpretation. like i said before, don't be a sheep. I don't know of a religion where you are asked to follow blindly, and if I did I'd stay away from it because I wouldn't want to end up on the wrong end of a cup of kool-aid (bonus if you know what I'm referring to).

>it's the entire thing that's being
>deemed faulty,

and THAT's what I'm disagreeing with. I asked him to show me where it's faulty and he came back (basically) with: "because the followers are foul" i said, "aren't people pretty much foul across the board?" and then i got nothing else.

now we're having an actual discussion with comments by you followed by comments by me (hopefully to the end of reaching some point of mutual understanding, even if it is agreeing to disagree.

i'm not speaking for Christainity per se, only for myself as a Christian. If you (or anyone) wants to hear what I gotta say then ask. Don't rant, ask. I'll answer you the best way I can. If that's not good enough then what can I do?

>what's resulted
>from that in Christ's name,
>was it the same as
>he taught originally?

much of what has resulted (in the "name" of Christainity) has absolutely nothing to do with the universal teachings of Christ. I agree wholeheatedly. but one still has to look at those events in their context and not make the leap that Christianity is "bad" or that there is not such person as Christ or whatever. context is important. looking at the bad without looking at the good is just as foul as picking a part of the bible out to justify ones evil ways and ideas.

>people are people but power is
>power..it's said that the cross
>is one of the biggest
>brand logos in the world
>- so what's behind it.

not all christians, and not necessarily christ.
just because rev/deacon/father/pope so and so wears a cross or carries a bible doesn't make him anymore of a Christain than me putting a leaf in my pocket makes me a tree. you're right, the name of christ (again) has been used to justify greed and all manner of sin, but it says in the book (for those who take the time to study -- note i didn't just say read-- it), to compare the actions of the believer to the teachings to determine whether a believer is serving God or themself.

>and that's why this debate
>will/should reocurr, for as long
>as organised religion remains, and
>curious souls remain outside
>it.

i have no problem with asking/answering questions
or engaging in debate. arguement? i'll pass.


>I'm guessing the
>intention is to find out
>if you ever questioned yourselves/faiths
>and to share any thoughts.

if that was the question, it should have been asked that way. but look again and compare your quesion to ills statements and challenges. he had an axe to grind and didn't care who got hit in the process. THEN he started attacking folk personally, now please remember that I could care less a what he(?) calls me because he doesn't know me ornor has he tried to, but withing the context of the discussions that makes me think he just wanted to fight. mission accomplished i guess.

>a q&a in this usually
>results in direction to passages/quotes
>or incidents/emotions we can't all
>relate to (though some of
>us truly try).

if you decide that you can't/won't relate before you even ask, then what's the point in asking?



>'there's the rub..' as shakespeare wrote,
>but do you have a
>sound basis with which to
>explain yourself?

if you've decided that anything i say is foolish before i open my mouth, how can/why should can i try. i think i do, and until you LISTEN to me you truly won't know. but agian, your question is a million miles from the original posts and the staements of th original poster.

>I just mean the reading materials
>and what we're given remains
>the same in every sense
>so how can it respond
>to life's organic nature..the way
>we relate to our own
>lives even has changed completely.

perhaps that is why it is called the "living word". the idea that the ideas/concepts therein are for another time is to deny actually looking at it. there is nothing new under the sun. te same stuff that happened in those stories/evennts happen today. that's like saying that your parents advice is null because the experiences are of a different era. you have to search through the antiquated words and get to what the point really is. truth is truth.

>shakespeare's unsolvable rub again..lemme just say
>here that it's not so
>much about christianity vs. othereligions.

then what is it? is it the validity of religion in general? is it your earlier question about justifying the actions of the supposedly devout in line with the teachings? is it about starting some mess? i see that is not your intent, but the ORIGINAL intent remains in question.

>in spiritual terms, yes - I
>believe that, you've got start
>somewhere but you've need to
>start fresh.

then you need to realize that you're setting yourself up for a harer journey. example, you want to go on a trip from LA to NY. do you take a map or find your way on your own? if you DO take the map, do you rely on it without veryifying the ablity of the mapmaker? if the answer is no, then you're taking a risk. think of religion as a roadmap to wherever. you don't have to follow. you don't have to rely. no one is forcing you, ill or anyone else to believe anything. i just wonder if folks realize that believing in yourself and your experiences is just another religion? i tried to do things my way, only reliying on that which i could understand and "visualize". then i realized that (once agin) when you get down to it, you GOTTA take somones word for the foundational stuff -- where do we come from, what are things made of, what do you call that, etc. in my case, when i began to follow this path, things changed. i have peace and happiness beyond anything i've ever imagined. now if someone thinks that makes me stupid or foolish, then so be it. i'll continue to do my thing and pray that they can find what it'll take for them. selah.


>you're right..what bad actions DO reflect
>upon christians are those comitted
>to the faith itself, whenever,
>throughout time.

but i can't undo someone else damage (nor am i called to). i'm called to do the best i can to follow the example set before me by Christ. not rev so and so, not nobody's pope. when i need to know what to do I take it to God to help me and have faith that he'll never forsake me even if i do the wrong thing. similarly as i walk this walk i beleive it is important to study and examine this thing that i say i believe, so theat whn question DO come I'll be able to say something better than what is trite and potentially confusing.

>I was born, baptised, raised and
>educated in it so I
>guess I was always wondering
>what I got for doing
>it.

when you say educated, what do you mean? you sat in a class while someone read it to you? both of us will agree that there is a difference between getting through a class and learning the material.
part of the thing is that you have to internally decide whether you think it's true or a bunch of crap. similarly, it NOT just about what you "got", but what you can give too. but that's a whole nother discussion.

>it's personal
>and there's a part of
>me that can't/won't find purchase,
>the part that says never
>be content/complacent.

i really feel you. i'm the type who wants every question answered before I make my decision. if you can't explain it to me (and withstand my attempts to poke holes) then i'm not feeling you.
but one day (dead serious) i realized that no matter how many books you read, degrees you get, you'll never find the answer to everything based upon what my little mind can handle. this is where faith comes in. at some point you gotta just decide to believe it. example, i've never been to the moon. i've seen a light in the sky and believed that men have walked there and examined it. how do i know they aren't lying and that it really ISN"T just a big light in the sky? i had to decide to believe them. another example, my kindergarten teacher told me 1+1=2. why? ultimately because she said so. even after learnig set logic, descrete math and all that I still had to learn to accept the "given" as given.
Now, I look at mankind throughout history and his inability to do anything besides destroy himself and everything around. I know WE didn't create anything, so where did all this come from? was it all just a big "natural" accident? i don't think so, becaus the idea of evolution really does go against something which CAN be proven called entropy (the idea that "things fall apart" as opposed to together). everything decays, so how could things evolve into a better state? now i'm really going off on a tangent, but ultimately my point is that we all have to decide what to take as "given". I've made my choice, and everyone else will do the same. in the end sombody's gonna be wrong, and i don't think it's gonna be me.

>it's
>not nature's way.

i touched on this abouve, but what exacty IS nature's way anyway?

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

thank you sincerely, boodaah. but I'm still thirsty.

one of the paradoxes that I had trouble getting my head around, you're all christians as a group, but christianity is many things to many people. like, everybody has their own religion (not just version) even within religion because it can't exist independently of you - like trying to explain sound without hearing. and what I learn from you, isn't quite what I learned at school, which is different to how my mother explained it.

but that means you all are right..it's the individuals that need to be addressed because (much as many a religious leader might believe) belief can't be a dictated and (much as any believer may protest) everyone has their own reasons for claiming what they claim, and seek their own gains from it that are often in direct disagreement with the doctrine itself. many people I know back home are motivated by disappointment/displeasure/discontentment/disgust with their lives - despair's what certain religions gained rise from, hope is what they thrive on. which is fair. so what of paul? what was his dissatisfaction and how did it shape his version that now demarcates so many lives?

I just don't know if there's such a surplus/deficiency of fibre and decency in the world that we're directing it away from us, out into 'God'. almost like there's a self-satisfied inconsistency at the heart of the whole thing that we'd presume we're so special amongst all things, that we're being watched/cared for because we've that need, a need that allows us to deflect strengths and shortcomings alike outside ourselves. I meant earlier that the naïve view a lot of people took towards life/nature's passed now.

which isn't to say we're any more sophisticated but can it be as simple as the feeling/illusion of being blessed making it so..I'm ready to accept the wisdom of my forefathers but I'd have serious questions for them if they said to my face that the supreme being birthed a half-human son whom, as an adult, suggested the best way to live is pray for regular interventions, await/fear death and prepare for it by consuming His 'blood' and 'body'. sport/support a symbol/signifier that I can't relate to in any meaningful way in today's world. and those that choose not to participate are little more than sacrifices for you all that have chosen to.

because belief can make the world positive/peaceful where it wasn't, but it can also make it ugly/unpleasant where it isn't really. I feel like few deserve the sort of punishment that's been promised them. and what does a child need with such early indoctrinations? either way it's like we're pigs in a pen, actors on a stage, buffeted by things outside our control - satan precedes us only for Christ to retrieve us..who's been wronged and what's our part in our own affairs?

that's partly what I have trouble accepting, like my religion HAS to come from myself in the sense of what's present is the closest thing I have to reins on my life..because what's to study really if everyone has their own version/basis thus belief even within the subsections? I'm within it in a factual way, five senses that can be fooled but will remain honest with me. whether the moon exists or not isn't as personal a burden, doesn't tie in to enough things that I would offer time to resolving it for myself. I feel if I were a devout christian I'd have to dedicate my life to staying absolutely true to my beliefs because it makes no sense at all not to.

but I feel like life isn't about right or wrong in such terms that are necessarily impossible to live up to..like false advertising that’s blatantly unrealistic. crimes comitted against and absolved by the same being. yes, that's how my mother lived and what landed me a name like 'alan', why I speak/write the way I do now even - but I know it's not how my ancestors lived, prior to the missionaries, prior to paul.

dunno if their way worked or not either but it's for lack of acess to that tradition that I find my own way.. I mean, imagine if we ALL were christians, what then - I mean, how many of the sheep-shunning thinkers among you still would be? nature's way..I don't know, just not so many absolutes and opposites. We must smooth out our rough edges and wicked impulses - but they're what we have and we all know this otherwise, like I say, we'd stay on the right path at all times, salvation is in serious jeopardy otherwise. but it isn't really, not if you're aware and hit the back button in time each time. like many pride themselves for that natural high, but is it any different to my high - intoxication of sorts, one that can be easily overindulged to fundamental extremes.

so whether life's viewed as blessed load or irredeemable gift is christianity really a support? or a saddle.. or yoke even, standing in a different line for a slice of the same pie. we that are present now can't and won't ever know. I think I'm just reaching for immediacy here, that wild animal mentality I mentioned in janey's 'what are we?' post. I've got most respect for life, it's sanctified in my eyes, and I try to behave accordingly.

but, ironically, I have trouble according death the same weight. and maybe it makes sense to..but I'm learning each day and you're right - most things do fall apart. but you know, boodaah, go ahead with that because if you are wrong, you've lost nothing and have reaped the benefits throughout your life. either way, when you do find out 'the truth' the worst'll be over. if I'm wrong then it's only just begun.

damn, excuse the endlessesness - I've been doing it on-off in bits and they have a habit of building.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

in the raw on the ocean floor, need I say more? - shock g/digital underground

you might want to peep:

http://www.equip.org/

there's a wealth of good stuff here about how to seperate the rhetiric from the reality of the christian faith.

browse around.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

>there's a wealth of good stuff
>here about how to seperate
>the rhetiric from the reality
>of the christian faith.
>
>browse around.

good site, dunno though..more like how to arm yourself against agressors spouting anti-christian rhetoric, both sides claiming reality.

I'm going to bookmark it and return to it for further exploration as thoughts occur to me..I just keep thinking both sides lack a substansial core that I can grasp, even on this board.

but who am I?
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

in the raw on the ocean floor, need I say more? - shock g/digital underground

I agree, equip.org is a very good website.
Peace.

E-mail me at presyzion@hotmail.com
†

"Can't imagine goin through it without soul music"-Comm

"Your firearms are too short to box with God.-Kweli

"I be the analog arsonist, aiming at your arteries, all seing abstract analyze everything, adding on, absolutey aboloshing, average amateur's arsenal just astonishing"--Gift of Gab

"If it's real who needs to deal with the special affects?"-Mos

"For you to grow he had to go so what you stoppin him for?"-Comm

"Never disrespect no women cause I love my momma"-Kweli

What a ridiculous thread.

To put it graphically, who told you your shit doesn't stink in order for you to hurl accusations and generalizations at the followers of the largest religion in the world? This comes off as totally arrogant and ignorant. If you were questioning the beliefs of an individual person, or even a couple of people, then that's one thing, but to try to generalize millions of people under 10 meaningless points that doesn't include everyone is illogical and intellectually irresponsible. Just as there are bad people under the banner of religions, there are good people that actually do look for the best interests also. If you are going to attack beliefs because of the deeds of the people under it's banner then do it for every religion, organization, creed, race, sexuality, or belief system. Until then, you are only throwing stones at people from inside a glass house.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

"Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take pride in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today, someone else tomorrow. You have no constitutional right not to be offended." - Neal Boortz

Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian Conservative.

i liked how u started your post off that was funny. but on da real, i am feeling what u r saying.......
--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

What gerneralizations am i hurling out? I'm making factual statements based on history. Just like you are offended by my challenge i'm offended by a dogma that was forced on my ancestors unwillingly. The first Africans and Natives who were converted on this continent were not Christians cuz they wanted to be, they were forced to be. This is the same world domination vibe has flowed thru Christianity since Constitine got his filthy hands on it.

"How Dare you use Jesus' name to shield your filthy religion?"

-Shabazz the disciple

Even though I pretty much agree with what was said here, we can't forget that there are and have been MANY threads and understandings of Christianity from Ultra Right-Wing Fundamentalists to revolutionary practicioners of Liberation-Theology in Latin America. I see where you're coming from, but the description of Christianity that you painted here is of a particular brand, and does not (and cannot) represent ALL branches of the tree of Christianity.

Seeing as though Jezus himself was a black man, and the "religion" originated in the Middle East/Africa, there are many people who practice Christianity in those parts of the world who are not under the falsified spell of European Christian practices. For many more, Christianity is practised as and understood to be a faith of the oppressed.


love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

"To be honest, in any civilized debate a normal person would describe someone like Bush a fascist populist, and Gore a neoliberal opportunist." - Krewcial

CELEBRATING AUGUST AS ... aw fuck it, it's ME'SHELL MONTH up in this joint!

Are you free? Truly Free. Do you believe everything that you hear? Everything that you see? Can you tell me if you're free?

I try to tell folks, do you think if Elian, you know ... the little kid from Cuba ... was from Haiti, that we'd be having all this? If he was my color do you think we'd be having all this news shit? I don't think so. Or if he was a refugee from Rwanda do you think we'd be going through any of this? Wouldn't be such headline news. Do you believe everything that you hear and see? America's got you believing that Communism is right at your door, so boycott Cuba. Don't believe everything that you hear and everything that you see.

It's so sad. I get so sad some times. The only way to feel superior is to crush out the others. Cuz you sell your soul like you sell a piece of ass ... a slave to dead white leaders on paper. Welfare cases, rapists and hoes, all reinforced by videos and T.V. shows. Jail is a sancutary for the walking dead. It fucks with your head when every black leader ends up dead. Somebody said: our greatest destiny is to become white. But white is not pure and hate is not pride. Just cuz Civil Rights is law doesn't mean that you abide. So tell me ... are you free? -- Me'Shell Ndegeocello, from a live Web broadcast of "Dead Nigga Blvd."

To simply say that I disagree with what you said is beyond an understatement. Too many times people accuse Christians as putting themselves above others, or using fear as a tactic to believe in what we believe in. Any "true" (i say true because yes, there are Christians out there that fit some of the problems that you mentioned) Christian is only trying to enlighten others into what we believe. I am a Christian...and I never have tried to force my beliefs on anyone. You can only teach to those who want to be taught, or talk to those who want to listen. If you don't want to listen, shoot, feel free not to. I believe in what I believe in for a reason...it is truth for me. Being a Christian does not make me perfect, nor anyone else, and people that don't understand need to get more educated and learn for themselves.
Peace.

E-mail me at presyzion@hotmail.com
†

"Can't imagine goin through it without soul music"-Comm

"I be the analog arsonist, aiming at your arteries, all seing abstract analyze everything, adding on, absolutey aboloshing, average amateur's arsenal just astonishing"--Gift of Gab

"If it's real who needs to deal with the special affects?"-Mos

"For you to grow he had to go so what you stoppin him for?"-Comm

"Never disrespect no women cause I love my momma"-Talib Kweli

Religion and/or Spirituality practice/belief is a VERY personal decision. And the way that I practice this religion - Christianity - IS NOT what you've laid out here.

You see, Ill, my faith allows me the peace that your ally spoke of that his mother had. My beleif in God allows my heart to bleed for you as someone who feels that Christianity even needs to be on trial. The blood of Jesus covers me and keeps me safe - allowing me to be bold in my fights against the evil one. I ain laying down for nobody.

I am a woman who has seen other women rise to the ranks of men in my faith.

I have seen people's Christian beleifs to keep them strong and from giving up.

I am a fighter who fights every day that war of principalities and for what's right. This is the religion of Dr. King and the origin of the same Bible that Malcolm read along side his Koran. Faith is what enabled Ghandi.

And it doesn't really matter to us - Christians - rather or not you approve or not. So, even if we say "yeah, Ill, you're so right" we are not going abandon what we beleive.

Why do you continue in your antognonistic attempts? Why must we beleive what you beleive?
What? Why we gotta decrease so you can increase?

Live from the Shoe Sto'
Nushooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

ALL THE TIME!

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

Live
Nu

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

what they do...

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

Live
Nu

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

it is He that hath made us and not we ourselves.

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

commands....

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

There's nothing more insulting to humanity than inviting someone into a discussion and them demonstrating their inability to participate.

Y'all volunteered to discuss this post. If you can't handle it... then bounce.

Because you only embarass yourselves.

I've read these responses without comment. And without fail, I watch the same trifling and ridiculous behavior result. We can all play big when we're hiding behind computer screens, dinner tables, and 30 years of life "yo, I know what's up" don't you dare question me.

BUT the fact remains that there has scarce been a contribution to these discussions.

WHY?

Because they're dominated by foolish frustrated cats who aren't interested in asking questions or exploring--WHICH IS WHAT THE PURPOSE OF KNOWLEDGE, DISCUSSION, PROGRESSIVISM, BOARDS, AND LIFE IS.

I run forums quite similar to the spirit of OkayPlayer up to three times a week, going on two years. Why? Because I represent knowledge and inquisitive style.

There's nothing more annoying than people who sit in the back, yell some stupid shit to their "buddies" to make themselves feel more secure in whatever they happen to be a part of that is being questioned.

It's pathetic posturing. It's tired, trifling, PREDICTABLE nonsense that's like watching a bad demonstration video to train child psychologists.


IF YOU DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT TOUGH QUESTIONS THEN DON'T TRY TO ANSWER THEM.




LESSON ONE:

a DISCUSSION requires an abstract--something that is created for the purpose of the discussion, which exists as a function of GENERALIZATIONS.

...so all y'all who keep bringing up this "you're generalizing" ...no kidding, that's the point! --DROP IT.

in this case the ABSTRACT is "christianity" which may be better served by Keirdkegaard's "Xtianity"


LESSON TWO:

a discussion requires a charged STATEMENT or statements otherwise there is NOTHING WORTH DISCUSSING.

Ex: "I cite thee Christianity" or "all this or that is whack" or "are all men dogs" or "do we have free will"

Ex of not worth discussing: patting each other on the back, tooting our own horns "yo red kool aid is red" ...really?

*** - a discussion requires conflict. The only insults in this board come from cats who don't understand that and take discussion personally. YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING OFFENDED, IF YOU AREN'T MATURE ENOUGH, THEN GO PLAY VIDEO GAMES AND TALK ABOUT HOW "DOWN" YOU ARE


LESSON THREE:

a discussion requires you to QUESTION YOURSELF FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QUESTION

YOURSELF

FIRST


before saying a thing, discuss what the person is saying. DO NOT REACT, ass!

discuss.

okay, he said this... how so, how is that relevant... hmm... okay, perhaps he means this... okay, hmmm... but that doesn't take into accoutn this... but i see that... okay, good point.



LESSON FOUR:

if you want to get defensive, go take some metamucil, your tension doesn't contribute to anything.

if you want to change the subject to protect a concept you're uncomfortable with discussing, CHANGE THE CHANNEL... or change your socks (it helps)

LESSON FIVE:

Learn to close your mouth. I've lost so much respect for some of you cats. It's sad watching people who pretend to want to discuss life (by coming to these boards) make fools of themselves.
If you could see y'all through my eyes, you'd be embarassed.

i applaud you for putting up some of the most playful, charged and creative posts on this entire site.

I've beheld at LEAST three extremely creative and inviting posts you've left for us to enjoy and explore


...cats usually don't get it.



Cats get frustrated--including Illosopher.
And Ill is well justified in it. He offers something out there and gets ATTACKED

yes... ATTACKED by cats who aren't ready for his style.

And then they get frustrated. Because Ill jabs right back.

Shit escalates 'cause people act like fools and won't step back once they get all charged.


Maybe the real purpose of these boards is to give people a crisis where they can act like meaningless fights are important.


...

I ain got to see things through your eyes - to include Christianity....

Let me make sure I understand you - from my "triflin' AND ridiculous" point of view (sarcasm - there is no sarcasm icon....)

>There's nothing more insulting to humanity
>than inviting someone into a
>discussion and them demonstrating their
>inability to participate.
Was this really an invitation? It seemed more like a witch hunt, inquisition, etc....

>Y'all volunteered to discuss this post.
> If you can't handle it... then bounce.
Now, you're right about that.


>Because you only embarass yourselves.
In the eye of the beholder.....

>I've read these responses without comment.
Now is that trifling and ridiculous?

> And without fail, I watch the same trifling and
>ridiculous behavior result. We can all play big when we're hiding behind computer screens, dinner tables, and 30 years of life "yo, I know what's up" don't you dare question me.

Naw, I ain playin big. Are you? Whose hiding? To hide would have been to not comment at all... Like you were doing.


>BUT the fact remains that there
>has scarce been a contribution
>to these discussions.
Is there a word missing here? I wanna understand you completely - especially if you're labeling me trifling and ridiculous...

>WHY?
>
>Because they're dominated by foolish frustrated
>cats who aren't interested in
>asking questions or exploring--WHICH IS
>WHAT THE PURPOSE OF KNOWLEDGE,
>DISCUSSION, PROGRESSIVISM, BOARDS, AND LIFE
>IS.
I don't see that as what Ill has done. I see accusations and a one sided history treatise. You see when somebody is put on trial, there is an assumption that something wrong has been done. Then there is no disucssion just proof and judgement. Who's the judge, anyway? Me? You? Ill? Who? My point is that we all are - judgers of our own beleifs.

>I run forums quite similar to the spirit of OkayPlayer up to three times a week, going on two years.

So does this QUALIFY you as the judge? Tell me that you've been a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddist...the "discussion" is about Christianity.

>Why? Because I represent knowledge and inquisitive style.
Says, you? You have no more right to this than I do to my Christianity.

>There's nothing more annoying than people
>who sit in the back, yell some stupid shit to
>their "buddies" to make themselves feel more secure in whatever they happen to be a
>part of that is being questioned.
I was a Christian before Okay Player and don't see a need for you or anybody else to quantify or qualify that. But I'll tell you what is annoying: People making global assessments with local information.

>It's pathetic posturing. It's tired,
>trifling, PREDICTABLE nonsense that's like
>watching a bad demonstration video
>to train child psychologists.
Global: Local

>IF YOU DON'T WANT TO THINK
>ABOUT TOUGH QUESTIONS THEN DON'T
>TRY TO ANSWER THEM.
You know, I asked Ill a question and so did someone else....what would Ill have us do? Abandon our Christianity? Would his "prolific" posturing be over if we did? What yeilds is he expecting from calling Christians out?
>
>LESSON ONE throught "Lesson five" ???

Question YOURSELF.

Live
Nu

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

What a load of hypocrisy. You're criticizing people for criticizing him for attacking them. That makes perfect sense. The reason he made the comments was to attack, not to discuss. Either way, people have a right to criticize him just has he has a right to criticize back. For you to complain about it makes you seem soft. He and you deserve whatever you get for whatever attacks you hurl. If you are going to do it, at LEAST stand up and face the consequences for doing so instead of whining and complaining about getting flamed after you done so yourselves.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

"Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take pride in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today, someone else tomorrow. You have no constitutional right not to be offended." - Neal Boortz

Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian Conservative.

Look b, you are obviously confused and would be better served by takin some time to get know self. Who's complaining about what, I don't mind being controversial in the face of you Wannabee Pro-Black Conservative/Bourgiosie House Negroes and Pseudo Liberal Whites. I am not attacking anyone, i'm challenging a flawed institution, not attacking God, Not attacking the Prophet Jesus, i'm not attacking your personal faith i'm challenging the institution that controls your religion. at the same time i'm using things that actually happened in history that can attributed to people who called themselves Christians...
If you were so sure of what you stood for you would actually deal with questions i raise instead of dodging them and calling me a demogougue.

Frankly, it's a little bit difficult for me to participate meaningfully in this discussion. I had sort of hoped that I could remind Illosopher of comments that I had made to his thread a few weeks ago called "Religion is Wack" -- comments that I took a lot of time over in order to make myself clear and to express my opinions as inclusively as possible, and comments to which he never responded. I see this same post going up every now and then and despite your contention that the purpose of all of this is to get into intellectual and creative argument/discussion, I haven't had the impression that Ill was really even reviewing anything that I had to say.

I find it frustrating, because after these experiences, I'm inclined to believe that the real message behind this thread is obscured by the specific factual issue being bandied about. The question of whether or not Christianity is wholly bad or should be abolished seems secondary to the question of whether everyone should think and act like you and Ill.

I know that sounds harsh, but are we really looking for discussion that leads to some kind of resolution, even if it's an agreement to disagree, if the same topics keep being raised by the same people in the same way over and over?

Peace.

that's right gurl get yo bible verses on.....there will always be tests and those that question your faith. holdfast and don't falter.....
--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

The amount of fear you have is evident in the way you cats avoided the questions i raised...

However, I will concede to this (just as I said earlier but you chose not to respond) People have done some down right nasty things in the name of Christianity BUT YOU have done things just a dastardly in the name of that same posturing that your ally accused us Christians of. And once again Ill, what if I say: Ill everything that you have said is correct" THEN WHAT?????? Should I abadon everything that I beleive cuz you said so? What, Ill? What???

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.... What is your objective? Is it just to point out all the things that Christianity has been used for? What's next Buddism, Catholicism, THE BOARDS??????
"Stand up and let me question you like a man"

Live
Nu

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

It could be a first someone actually caught the Holy Ghost over the Net!

Hey nushooz can u speak in tongue too!

so are you against African religions as well?

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

I'd like to lay some holy hands on you.....

How much do you know about speaking in tongues? Are you interested in learning?

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

I represent neither defense or prosecution, but rather submit this brief to the court for review


>1)Not representing the true teachings of
>the Prophet Jesus

This is true, the gospel of Thomas? is ignored, because it shoots down alot of what these nuts who claim to speak for Jesus (who never met Jesus by the way) say in their bible. Teachings are weeded out just to keep that which is "convenient"

>2)Being a vehicle to enslave and
>pacify millions of Africas in
>the Western hemispere

this is also accurate, Christianity HAS been used for this

>3)Being a vehicle to pacify, colonize,
>and westernize non-white people throughout
>the globe, with no respect
>for indegenous cultures and religions.

"in the name of Christ" ...read your Columbus

>4)Being sexist an exclusionary to women
>from the Genesis fairy tale
>to prohibition of women in
>leadership roles of the clergy,
>as well as presenting God
>as a male figure.

yes, many if not most (perhaps all?) Christian sects have excluded women. In the begining, it was equal, but was quickly polluted as Christianity was politicized. (examine pre-Catholicism Xtian sects)

>5)Being a tool to rationalize servitude
>in the fuedal and slavery
>epochs.

was used for this, too.

>6)Being a tool to supress revolutionary
>practices, by promising a better
>afterlife while one suffers through
>this one, thereby selling desparate
>people a bag of dope
>oh! i mean hope.

traditional US christianity 1700-1970's did alot of this right here... so did euro-catholocism

>7)Being a tool to keep people
>from finding strength in one
>self, but to find strenghth
>in a mystery God in
>the sky that will make
>everything OK, thereby creating a
>focus on the external as
>opposed to the internal (i.e.
>superficiality).

this is true of diety-based religions in general. If people have a problem with that, it's another discussion altogether.

>8)Being a accomplice in the underdevelopment
>of the non-western world.

hmm... i see where you're going with this one, but that's more political than the nature of organized sects in general

>9)Being racist and ethno-centrist in the
>forced conversion of non-white peoples,
>in the name of so-called
>misionary purposes under the idea
>they are civilizing savages.

hmm...

>10)Using fear of eternal damnation to
>ensure faith as opposed to
>spiritual enlightenment.

true of many, many sects. I'd like to hear exceptions to this. PLEASE RESPOND, Y'ALL

>11)Having no basis to the natural
>world. How can a way
>of life be completely bankrupt
>of science the study of
>life?

Interesting viewpoint. I have no response yet to that.

I call anyone who participates in any organized religion, and or culture for that matter, to substitute their own names in to the said accusations and see if they too can't feel that trial? Like it was aid on here before, these charges are abstract, and as a result any one of us can find a place or time when we have accepted dogma that has not always made sense. In one wsay I love religion: it is one of the only things in this world that fully believes in the power of love and people to elevate our being to something more than what it is now. Not money, not blind faith, not any of the bullshit, but love for yourself and those around you. And everytime a new religion comes or a new culture develops, that innovation is what makes the world turn. The sad side effect is that people become so attached top what they create that sometimes it never changes. Maybe this is what is happening with religion? The minute love becomes an institution with rules and regulations, can any of us abide by those laws????
Clo

Much love to the writer of that post.

You are a pioneer in rational discussion.

MUCH love.

for real

Much love to the writer of that post.

You are a pioneer in rational discussion.

MUCH love.

for real

I agree with you wholeheartedly, too many people take things personal instead of looking at the statements i made accepting them as a questions. Questions that are raised out of curiousity and challenging the concept of Christianity as we know it.

This is getting ugly.
You believe what you believe. But the best way to get someone to see your point of view is by not knocking what they believe in. I'm Christian myself, and I have friends who are agnostic and atheist. Am I going to call them stupid for them believing what they believe? No. Do they call me stupid for believing what I believe? No. If they did, would we be friends? At the very least, our relationship would be strained. If you started on a negative path when you talk to people, you tend to get negative reactions. Period.

http://www.funkknots.com look at the wonderful art! No it ain't mine! Just go there!Support your fellow player, ffunkknots.:)

"Let them have their toy, we've got books."
Bill Cosby's response to Tavis Smiley of "BET Tonight "regarding the lack of minorities on television."

"Multiculturalism is a white people joke. Black people have always been here as different. People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

I'm not knocking the faith, i'm challenging the institution where do i say that beleiving in
Christianity is wack, I'm saying take these ideas into account and could someone address these charges i've made, if i wasn't open minded i would'nt have opened the floor for responses...

i'm just curious, were u raped by a priest or something or was yo daddy a good for nuthin preacher. no, in all seriousness is your hostility towards religion or is it towards those who have misused and abused religion?

like i tell people u have to do your part.....just like folks claim that church begs too much, God knows whats on your heart and he knows your intent. a true believer and one who walks by faith can't get caught up in the madness, just like if u give a man a dollar out the kindness of your heart u can't be worried about what he does with it you've done your part by giving to him.

and insults get you no where. for me, i get sick and damn tired of folks getting some education and reading a book and all of a sudden they hate religion. academia, bohemian lifestyle, or higher educations does not equate to anti-religion.

lastly,you have ranted on and on in post after post about religion and race being a social construct. r u waiting for folks to agree with you or what. hell, i hear ya and i understand what u r saying but that doesn't mean i am going to agree no matter how many times you make your anti-race and anti-religion posts.

my response is not only to this post but also to your previous anti-religion, christianity, organized religion posts.


--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

i'm just curious, were u raped by a priest or something or was yo daddy a good for nuthin preacher. no, in all seriousness is your hostility towards religion or is it towards those who have misused and abused religion?

Look my ancestors were misused and abused by cats waving swords, guns, bibles, and crosses.
Most hostility isn't toward religions it is about what some religions do, pacify the people,
When Black people were slaves White people used to tell us we'll have our pie in the sky, i'm noit feeling that, i hav e to accept that Christianity in the Western World has always been to a tool of pacification if you can't accept you are in the dark. Me personally i don't a man or woman needs another human to tell them how to approach spirituality. For all you cats talking about me forcing something on you, You obviously have had something forced on yoou all your life.

and insults get you no where. for me, i get sick and damn tired of folks getting some education and reading a book and all of a sudden they hate religion. academia, bohemian lifestyle, or higher educations does not equate to anti-religion.

I've never been a fan of religion i was raised atheist now i study Taoism and the Art of Peace as well as Traditional African faiths and Native American faiths, these ideals are based on nature andn oneness of all, they are based on devotion to all living things not devotion to a supernatural comic book hero...
l
astly,you have ranted on and on in post after post about religion and race being a social construct. r u waiting for folks to agree with you or what. hell, i hear ya and i understand what u r saying but that doesn't mean i am going to agree no matter how many times you make your anti-race and anti-religion posts.

Look you can continue to live Matrix kid, that's you i'm just enlighhten you a bit, like those before me, take the blue pill if want to...

r these charges against christians that have misrepresented christianity or are they charges against the various doctrines?????

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

KEEP IN MIND THAT I'M AN ARTIST & I'M SENSITIVE ABOUT MY SHIT!_______________________________________
Erotic City

I.. I.. I.. I.. Erotic City/
All of my purple life/I've been lookin' 4 a dame/That would wanna be my wife/
That was my intention main/If we cannot make babies/Maybe we can make some time
Fuck so pretty, U and me/Erotic City come alive/We could fuck until the dawn
Makin' love 'til cherry's gone/Erotic City, can't U see? Fuck so pretty, U and me/Everytime I comb my hair/Thoughts of U get in my eyes/U're a sinner, I don't care/I just want your creamy thighs/All of my hang-ups are gone/How I wish U felt the same/We could fuck until the dawn (Until the dawn/How I wish U were my dame (Baby, won't U be my dame?)/(Oh yeah)/(Until the light)/Uh, whoa whoa, whoa whoa, whoa whoa whoa (Mmmm)/Whoa whoa, whoa whoa, whoa whoa whoa/Baby, U're so creamy/I.. I.. I.. I.. I../Fuck some creamy human jive/Erotic City come alive
If we cannot make babies/Maybe we can make some time/Fuck so pretty, U and me
Erotic City come alive (I.. I.. I..)/We could fuck until the dawn (Come alive)/
Makin' love 'til cherry's gone (Come alive)/Erotic City, can't U see?/Fuck so pretty, U and me/If we cannot make babies (U and me)/Maybe we can make some time/Some time, some time, some time, Erotic City/We could fuck until the dawn/Makin' love 'til cherry's gone
Erotic City, can't U see?/Fuck so pretty, U and me/If we cannot make babies/Maybe we can make some time/Yeah, oh, oh, Erotic City/Whoa whoa
Whoa whoa {repeated} Oh no!/Erotic City {x3}/(Baby, U're so creamy) {x2}/Come on and dance while U... while U still/have your cherry baby/Cherry baby!
We could fuck until the dawn/Makin' love 'til cherry's gone/Erotic City, yeah/I.. I.. I.. I.. /Erotic City, yeah
_______________________________________

i'm a diva, i love hard and i hate easy - fire to her blowup doll

colon/semi-colon/colon cleansing - for u shnookums

yes. christianity has faults. there...i said it and i'm a "believer". i can say it b/c i know that man (and woman) has faults and as we all know, christianity is a "man-made" religion. name me one religion that hasn't had its share of problems and i'll consider it my lesson for the day.

i think one of the reasons why we (and i'm including myself in this particular "we") get easily offended is b/c our religion is the one that's _seemingly_ always under attack. i'm pretty sure i'm not the only christian on this board that's read a little and realized that yes, some things that go on in the name of christ are effed up.

it's funny b/c the first thing that popped in my head after i read this was boodaah's "don't be a sheep" line. it's way too easy to criticize something on the basis of "i'm trying to open your eyes why can't you see that things are effed up?!?!?!?". it's a little more difficult, though, to plot out a plan of attack (whether it be on an individual or collective level) to determine if something needs to be fixed and if do, how does one go about fixing it?

and maybe that's what we need to start doing...accepting the fact that yes, shyt is broken and starting to determine if it's worth fixing.

more later, maybe...:-)

~~wbg~~
AIM: wbgirl218
Chicago 2001...will u be ready?
go here:
http://www.breastcancer3day.org
and here:
http://www.recordkingdom.com

september as ol' school quote month:
"...i'm waiting for the time till i can get to arizona/all my money is spent/on the gotdamn rent/neither party is mine/not the jackass nor the elephant..." (c) chuck d

the first step is to admit there is a problem

and then to constructivly build a solution.

You, fine player, are one of the few who have even attempted to do this.

Most "players" merely want to talk big and pat themselves on the back.


BUT keep in mind. Merely admiting a problem is not enough. One must discuss this problem and truly understand it, or any attempts to solve will surely be wack.

Ill posted several questions--which are accurate, which aren't?

(question to all players and would-be players)

much love to writer of the comment i respond to wbgirL?

Whassup man...
I'm gonna try to answer this without getting any Bible teachings involved so...

>1)Not representing the true teachings of
>the Prophet Jesus
You can't blame the religion on that, you blame the teachers...if the evidence is there, and people are distorting that, than that's not the religion, more so the wicked people that use religion to get what they want.
>
>2)Being a vehicle to enslave and
>pacify millions of Africas in
>the Western hemispere
That's not a bad argument, but on the same token, there were millions of slaves for every religion, and throughout history, religion is the largest cause for wars. Africans were slaved before Christianity. Like I said above, you can't blame the religion for people distorting it to their advantage.

>3)Being a vehicle to pacify, colonize,
>and westernize non-white people throughout
>the globe, with no respect
>for indegenous cultures and religions.
The same thing(s) happened in Ancient China and Japan, and most of them I believe were Buddists, or some branch of Buddhism
>
>4)Being sexist an exclusionary to women
>from the Genesis fairy tale
>to prohibition of women in
>leadership roles of the clergy,
>as well as presenting God
>as a male figure.
That's not just Christianity though. Every religion shows the male as being the God-like figure. Some Islamic peoples make women cover their faces in the presence of men, and in my opinion, that's the most sexist thing I've seen.

>5)Being a tool to rationalize servitude
>in the fuedal and slavery
>epochs.
Basically my argument is being repeated...like I said before, it's not the religion, it's the representatives of the religion. Mostly all religions were used for selfishness, whether it be to take over a nation, or otherwise.

>6)Being a tool to supress revolutionary
>practices, by promising a better
>afterlife while one suffers through
>this one, thereby selling desparate
>people a bag of dope
>oh! i mean hope.
The same can be said for any government

>7)Being a tool to keep people
>from finding strength in one
>self, but to find strenghth
>in a mystery God in
>the sky that will make
>everything OK, thereby creating a
>focus on the external as
>opposed to the internal (i.e.
>superficiality).
I take two stands on this...I somewhat agree with the first part of the statement, as most religions emphasize the importance of the Supreme Being, and to put him ahead of all else. But I disagree because the most cardinal sin in every religion is not loving thyself...therefore for one to be truly religious or spiritual, loving thyself is vital.

>8)Being a accomplice in the underdevelopment
>of the non-western world.
I blame that moreso on corrupt governments than one single religion.

>9)Being racist and ethno-centrist in the
>forced conversion of non-white peoples,
>in the name of so-called
>misionary purposes under the idea
>they are civilizing savages.
That wasn't just Christianity...that was an entire European way of life. They manipulated the basis of the religion to basically rob and rape the continent of Africa. Since Europe didn't understand any of the religions of Africa, they did what they saw fit.

>10)Using fear of eternal damnation to
>ensure faith as opposed to
>spiritual enlightenment.
Like I said before, Christianity is not the only religion that does this...for the most part ALL religions do this, so if you attack Christianity with this, you have to attack every other religion that speaks this.

>11)Having no basis to the natural
>world. How can a way
>of life be completely bankrupt
>of science the study of
>life?
The Shrouds of Toren have the face of the man believed to be Jesus Christ on them. There has been bits and pieces of evidence that supports some of the things discussed in the Bible.
Besides, that's a whole lot more believable than having a star explode and magically create life on only one planet in the solar system...that's more farfetched than the Bible.

Just some things on my brain...feel free to attack them

Peace
Rex

"The same can be said for any government" (Rex)


--that is SO hard, man. Represent that.

ALSO, I thank you with my highest praise for stepping into this discussion and making it something worth reading.


MUCH LOVE TO ALL PLAYERS WHO HAVE RETURNED TO GIVE ERYBODY A WAKE-UP CALL.

I feel you on some of these vibes, sure. Dogmas in general, whether religious, political or social tend to fall into the biases of the practicioners.

But that's where the curiosity lies. Because Dogmas in practice, are living things, which are defined by and cultivated by those who identify with and practice them.

I forget who (not that the name matters, but just the thought, really) but this theologian discussed three concepts:

Christianity - following teachings of christ
Christendom - everything that has to do with christianity, all people, places, events, actions
Xtianity - ...i forget, either hard cats or wack cats


ANYWAY... everything that makes up Christendom is what people react to. There is a tangible thing that is Christianity--the following of the teachings of Christ. Not all Christians, historically have even worshiped Jesus or thought him the Messiah--merely followed his teachings, been his disciples, so to speak.

In the US, alot of cats identify themselves as Christian, without knowing what that implies--letting love of Christ in variety and the following Jesus' teachings variety. Most cats just identify with Christianity as if it's a club or something that doesn't require anything of the self.

These cats are all a part of Christendom. Regardless of whether they speak for Christian philosophies or the teachings of Christ. And Christendom viewed as a whole, tends to be a very whack thing. On the positive note, it gives some people a sense of balance or purpose. On the negative note, it justifies all kinds of b/s and has little philosophical grounding--more of a fan club than a real following at times.

Does this matter? Yes, because all of Christendom justify their views through bibical obscurities, or through other pseudo-religious justifications.

This is where the discussion abstract of "Christianity" comes from. Discussing Christendom.

IF you substitute one word, does that make it eastier for some cats.

... perhaps?

Is it necessary?

No.

Because anyone who really gave a damn about discussing anything would UNDERSTAND without needing to complain like a little punk-ass that "oh, we think you're mean!" and all that crap.

It was obvious the minute I turned on my computer what the purpose of this post was. And the same three or four cats never got it. They still don't. And they decided to attack me the minute I stepped in.

Why?

Perhaps they're sad. Perhaps they're "dinner-table" activists. And they perhaps don't have anything to say.

Who knows? I predict this much:

there is a 95% chance that i will be attacked again and for what?

there is a 99% chance that they'll go on never asking themselves why certain things are their fault

there is a 89% chance they'll never accept their share of responsibility for when things go foul on these boards, and a 99% chance that if they do they'll try to diminish it and say something like "fine, well screw you, i accept it--let's just move on" or something to that accords because they don't really want to grow as people

there is a 30% chance of rain in indiana

there is a 60% chance i'm turning this computer off soon

and a 100% chance that i send y'all

much love and respect.


best

Yo mad props! I got nuff respect for your responses they gave me a different view and i'll think about them tonight....

One Love

History of Northen Ireland and what exists today !!
2 sides both proclaim to be Christen yet hate kill murder bomb and so on !!!
How can ya defened what their doing to each other !!!
I agree wit Ill !!!



"The board that okayplays together/stays together"-Whizdumb

******************:-)*******************
"This place is sacred to the goddess"-Anyte
"I defined my pride,Through somebodys else's eyes"-Jill Scott
"No longer drop enemy blood"-Anyte
"I ain't got no bars to this cage"-Jill Scott

"the complexity of simplicity" Flo and me

"everything and nothing" Me and Flo


http://www.tankgreen.com
The revolution has tits and clits and drinks earl grey baby!;-)


need some new vinyl?
http://www.recordkingdom.com/

grey effin matter to this guy
http://www.h8r.com h8...h8 on..

Factology -vs- theology
http://www.factology.com

Order of the Ancient Ones
http://egiptianmysteries.com

"i soar up above you oh mortals
for i have kissed the sky as a falcon
i am not for the land i am for the stars...." Prayer of Osiris

as i have not been present for the previous hearings i have no idea and wasnt briefed on the issues but i do have a question to pose the the jury and council alike

how is it that you have these religions and holy books that date 4,000 years for islam 6-10 thousand years for judism and christianity yet we have scientist who have discovered artifacts datin back to 4 and 5 million years ago are the scientist liars? or are we being swendled into Belief systems as a product of control and seperation?
did dinosaurs exist?
did the holy books of today mirror image the ancient texts of the sumerians and egyptians?
does the modern day time era deem it mandatory to adopt religion to gain awareness of the creator did civilizations b4 no not the source?
if so by what means?
would those means discredit the foundation od religion as we know it?
do extrterestrials exist? does the holy books speak on them? if so does that make jesus and muhammad aliens? who are the god of the aliens?
does god need religion?
whos god is responsible for the atrocities that plagued cultures and countries then and today?


then ask yourself do you believe and have faith cuz you really dont know but wanna feel the security of something instead of nothing?

oh let me introduce myself i am the seat holder of the ancient order of melcheidek and board memember of the universal council of interplantary relations.

and you where sayin?






"the complexity of simplicity" Flo and me

"everything and nothing" Me and Flo


http://www.tankgreen.com
The revolution has tits and clits and drinks earl grey baby!;-)


need some new vinyl?
http://www.recordkingdom.com/

grey effin matter to this guy
http://www.h8r.com h8...h8 on..

Factology -vs- theology
http://www.factology.com

Order of the Ancient Ones
http://egiptianmysteries.com

"i soar up above you oh mortals
for i have kissed the sky as a falcon
i am not for the land i am for the stars...." Prayer of Osiris

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------

"the complexity of simplicity" Flo and me

"everything and nothing" Me and Flo


http://www.tankgreen.com
The revolution has tits and clits and drinks earl grey baby!;-)


need some new vinyl?
http://www.recordkingdom.com/

grey effin matter to this guy
http://www.h8r.com h8...h8 on..

Factology -vs- theology
http://www.factology.com

Order of the Ancient Ones
http://egiptianmysteries.com

"i soar up above you oh mortals
for i have kissed the sky as a falcon
i am not for the land i am for the stars...." Prayer of Osiris