do you have a problem w/ them? @ work today, there was a couple (white) with two darker skinned infant twins....they looked to be mixed (and i hate to say that b/c we all are when you get down to it, right?).
if two white parents wanted to adopt a black child, would that kid be missing out on something?

and why do you never hear about black parents adopting a white child? i think that would cause a little unrest.


_____________________
For Brainchild...
The Miss Cleo Quotes:
"Ha! You're walkin' around looking like a pauper while he's dressed GQ!"
"called to check 'pon the husband when it's you i should be checkin 'pon"

I don't think a black child adopted by a white family would be missing out on anything as long as he learns his heritage. He might miss out on such things as black family reunions and churches, things you have to be there to experience, but as long as he knows his heritage and isn't ignorant to how things in america are for his people he would be cool.

>I don't think a black child
>adopted by a white family
>would be missing out on
>anything as long as he
>learns his heritage.
Who's going to teach "heritage" to this child? There are certain things that are indeginous to Black folk that white people can not teach. And vice versa. And these things:

>things as black family reunions
>and churches,
are a part of that heritage. And can only be taught by INCLUSION.

>and isn't
>ignorant to how things in
>america are for his people
>he would be cool.
No. No. No. That's like a snake trying to teach a bird to fly.

But on the other hand, the power of Love is so strong. Children need to be loved - unconditionally. And I beleive that this love should manefest itself in White parents going BEYOND even the extra mile to be sure that the child is in an environment where he can be TAUGHT.

What if a white family adopts a Black child, loves him and is sure that the child is immersed in his people as often as possible....would this help? Could the child learn how to be Black?

It's a catch 22. Either way it goes somebody could loose...so, I wish I'd never met her, at all. (Opps! Where IS Carl Thomas?)

Good Post, Glow, my fellow Piscean!

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

>
>What if a white family adopts
>a Black child, loves him
>and is sure that the
>child is immersed in his
>people as often as possible....would
>this help? Could the
>child learn how to be
>Black?

wouldn't you agree that black people live in two worlds (so to speak)....a white world probably from 9-5...and then the black one after hours...
so....a black family raising a white child ...the kid wouldn't have a really hard job adjusting...

did that make sense?

(sup nushooz, fellow piscean)
_____________________
For Brainchild...
The Miss Cleo Quotes:
"Ha! You're walkin' around looking like a pauper while he's dressed GQ!"
"called to check 'pon the husband when it's you i should be checkin 'pon"

yes, we do live in two worlds or maybe even more than that.....black, white, professional, casual, etc.....

But I do think that any child placed in an environment that is not familiar with habits and traits poses a place of confusion for the child. Black folk raisin' a white child would probably create a more open minded child but Black folk couldn't teach a child what it's like to be Black or the garner understanding....I don't think but I'm not necessarily married to this idea. Definitely open for discussion....

Did THAT make sense? What's up with US today? We must have LaborDayWeekenditis...

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

The politics surrounding adoption and its peripheral arguments are legendary; in fact the issue has nothing to do with the children involved; it’s about power.

Classic arguments used by the Black community, and within the realm of politics are justified to use, is the sociological implication of putting a child with a family it cannot identify with racially.

The question is, these agencies are the last vestige of government idiocy. It is the only way they can help destabilize a group of people; by really fucking them up at the roots; good examples are Australia, Britain, America and South Africa to mention a few.

Their aim is twofold, firstly it is a way of placating the white society by investing in them a sense of false security - it subdues them to any form of sudden radicalism not sanctioned by the state by giving them a false charity shield; it is the same pathetic ego that has been used when they bible bashed their way through W. Africa.

In Europe and I am guessing in the States it is very difficult for Black parents; however responsible, to adopt Black babies let alone any baby: the racism within the system is so entrenched it is unbelievable - they have even surrounded themselves with sociological and psychological data to justify the exclusion of Black parents. The irony however is that most families, at least here in Britain (white) adopt these kids purely as a way of squeezing out of the government money put towards the development of the child; usually and this is not full proof, but these kids come out after x amount of years completely fucked up.

One of the hardest thing to swallow is when I hear people imply, why, say for example, so many Black kids are abandoned; over here I would guess a large amount happened in the 60's - I am sorry but that was a traumatic period if any one knows that history. But statistics are immaterial. In this day and age what is important is our responsibility to the children that we bring to this earth: it seems like a fundamental, if not new radical thinking needs to be put in place.

However until Black people are able to blast through the concrete, which denies them access to the same, status accorded to white adoptive parents these agents or arms of the government will continue to perpetuate the same ignorant policies.


xala.

actually, from what I remember, most adoption agencies try to put children with people of their own or similar background.

http://www.funkknots.com look at the wonderful art! No it ain't mine! Just go there!Support your fellow player, ffunkknots.:)

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of Illinois reported that there were simply not enough Black applicants in their pool of prospective foster parents to meet the number of black children up for adoption.



Little........................

Grump
M.W.S.
Advisor on Special and Covert Operations
"Giving folks a better, improved way of creeping"


"How many niggaz who will actually kill still rhymin?
How many niggaz who are actually signed still killin? ..
.. and when it comes to killin a mic, they ain't willin
and I'm supposed to be shook? That's the shit that kills me"
P. Monch

i am interracially adopted (i'm latina, and my parents are white) so i hope that i can shed some light on this subject. it is true that there are some things that a white family could never teach to a child from a cultural perspective, no matter how hard they try. nearly everything i know about latino culture i've gone out of my way to learn about. however, i would say that i am a well adjusted adult and that i do know what it means to be latina. i've encountered my fair share of latinos who are not adopted and have no clue about latino culture. so i'd say i'm doing alright.

that said, i've always wondered why there are not more families of color (i'm including latinos and asians here, not just blacks) who are willing to adopt. i haven't really done more research into it. i'd like to think we weren't being shut out of the process. maybe for many people the adoption process is daunting. the paperwork can be a nightmare and can take years to process. it took my parents 7 years before they could adopt me. how many people of any color are willing to stick it out that long? but a few friends of mine have told me that they would like to adopt children, so we'll see what their experiences are like.

i'd also like to say that i was raised in a loving and stable home. and i realize that such things are so rare these days. and honestly, that is the most important part when it comes to adoption.

(as an aside, i've heard that interracial adoptees are better adjusted than their intraracially adopted peers, since we *know* we're adopted. just a thought.)

__________________

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__________________

MSN IM name: azucar18
__________________

http://community.webtv.net/azucar18/yetanotherwasteof - often imitated, never duplicated or updated.

yes, you would *know* and I thank you for sharing.

But do you think that the cultural obstacles of Latinos are different from that of Black people? Comparatively, do the prejudices tht exists for Latinos the same, more severe, less than that of Black folk?

And, Dear? I'm just trying to learn so please don't take my question as anything but an opportunity to "learn" me. Thanks.

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

its bad to compare whats more and less severe. also, different types of latino people probably experience different discrimination. just cuz its like my booboo is worse than yours, but youre both hurtin. (i'm not trying to be mean, btw, its just that when people start to compare problems...rifts begin to occur)


http://www.funkknots.com look at the wonderful art! No it ain't mine! Just go there!Support your fellow player, ffunkknots.:)

"Let them have their toy, we've got books."
Bill Cosby's response to Tavis Smiley of "BET Tonight "regarding the lack of minorities on television."

"Multiculturalism is a white people joke. Black people have always been here as different. People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

>its bad to compare whats more
>and less severe. also, different
>types of latino people probably
>experience different discrimination.
I'm not Latino. I want to know. Is there something wrong with that? In reference to raising non-white children, do white people harbor those same ignorances that they hold about Black people? And if so, how do they raise Latino children?

I wanna know about this person's struggles. That's how I learn and be sure that I'm not contributing to it - the hurt that you speak about


its
>just that when people start
>to compare problems...rifts begin to
>occur)
Nah, baby, as I said - I'm trying to learn. The turn in the Civil Rights movement came when those hurt of Black folk was televised.

Live
Nu

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

To respond to what someone siad, it is actually harder, in most states, for a white family to adopt any child but a white child, for the reasons mentioned in earlier posts. I would agree that this situation is a catch 22, but again, the question itself is not race, or family values or any of that. The hight question being asked is about love, and multiculturalism. In order to live in America one either embraces or hates multiculturalism. (let's not talk about how shitty and unfair that is yet). So if you are down wqith mulitculturalism, then we must all realize that definitions of cxulture in america must begin to shift. Thgis has two parts. The good: at some point we CAN all be equal. The bad: so far, we're not doing so well on that shit. White means mainstream, and like we've heard so many times on this board, there is no white, there is only power.... So, what do you do? I say that love is the issue here. If parents can love their children, and children can love their parents, and we can be upfront about the history of EVERYONE in America, then we are well on our way to something totally different than America today. I would like to say a lot more, but fear rambling, so let me know if any of this makes sense. For the record, I never knew if it could work until about five years ago my aunt and uncle adopted two of the most wonderful children ever. The love int hat family, and just watching them together has convinced that love is, by far, the most powerful thing i this world
Clo

"But on the other hand, the power of Love is so strong. Children need to be loved - unconditionally. And I beleive that this love should manefest itself in White parents going BEYOND even the extra mile to be sure that the child is in an environment where he can be TAUGHT."

I am WITH you. I am one of those people that beleives that loves conquers all.

And although I beleive is Black folk too and alllll those things that make me pleased to be Black, I would rather a child know love - from anybody - black, blue, pink, brown....

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

what about Black folks adopting white or mixed kids.
first and foremost, i agree with nushooz that there is a catch 22 b/c all children need to be love and nurtured and that's most imp. but there is a cultural aspect that is relavant in this country.
i have a friend that family adopted a white child and for the life of me i can't understand that. there are tons of Black babies that are in the system why as a Black family that has the means to adopt a child would ya adopt a white child. another friend whose family adopted two mixed children and all they do is uh-ah over the child b/c they are mixed, supposedly cute, and adorable b/c they have light skin and easily managable hair. but it comes down to there are a lot of kids in the system and they are all innocent and though race shouldn't matter for me it does. shooot me............
i plan on adopting and i am adopting beautiful Black kids.

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supustar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

adopt beautiful Black children....

But I cram to understand why Black folk would want to adopt white children - not because white children don't need love too but because our MINORITY children need US (as Black folk) more - before we become extinct - wiped out by all the factors in society that are "against" our proliferation. Self preservation is the FIRST law of all nature. so,.......

Nap, when do you think is the BEST time to adopt? Should it be when you've made it, while you makin' it, or before you make it? Some people wanna wait to adopt for the same reasons that they wait to have children - mean while (if the lucky) children sneak up on them anyway. You have more control in adoption. So, when should you? - in your opinion.

Aside: How you doing today?

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

i mean...if it's not personal

why are you two choosing to adopt?

_____________________
For Brainchild...
The Miss Cleo Quotes:
"Ha! You're walkin' around looking like a pauper while he's dressed GQ!"
"called to check 'pon the husband when it's you i should be checkin 'pon"

Black Babies need love!

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

i have several family and friends who have been adopted so i know that there is a surplus of Black babies that are in the systme and need a home. since i was little i always said that i wanted to give birth to two kids and i wanted to adopt two kids that were siblings.

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

this short film that aired on Showtime a few years back where this black family tried HARD to adopt a white kid?

Well the name of it was "Oreos" and pretty much self explanatory when you saw the couple that was trying to adopt a white child.


Anyways............





little........................
Grump
M.W.S.
Advisor on Special and Covert Operations
"Giving folks a better, improved way of creeping"


"How many niggaz who will actually kill still rhymin?
How many niggaz who are actually signed still killin? ..
.. and when it comes to killin a mic, they ain't willin
and I'm supposed to be shook? That's the shit that kills me"
P. Monch

...we all need to be nurtured and loved to be productive, functioning adults in society, no matter what race box you check.

BUT

people also need to feel they can identify with THEMSELVES & their respective cultures in order to be healthy and functioning .

So to me, I think you have to weigh the pro's and con's and choose the lesser "evil". In an ideal world children would be placed with a family that matches their racial make-up. But it's not the ideal world, and Grump brought up the fact (that is true in almost all states I think) that there are simply not enough black families who are able to adopt all these kids.

So it'd be ridiculous to leave the children in the system because "white" parents may not be able to raise "black" kids in their culture. I think POSSIBLE loss of cultural identification is a lot less damaging than growing up without a family or love.



_____________________ .
Peace.
Inez AKA Starli

Inez24@prodigy.net
_____________________ .
"Starli/gets the party started
like a car key" -Juice

"At times my going forward seems
like retreat" -Common

Fuck being hard, posdnous is
complicated!

SUPPORT THIS!
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it's so easy for people to throw around their opinions with such sensitive issues. I see ONE person who replied here who is actually a product of the 'interracial adoption' process....

I had a good friend growing up who was black, adopted by a white family, who had also adopted a Japanese girl and had a child they gave birth to themselves as well. They were rich, spoiled and happy as clams. My friend had NO problem identifying with his culture or anything - his parents never inhibited his growth. He had the best of everything but still was proud to be a black man. He loved his family too. Imagine that.
As far as black families adopting white kids, I had a friend of mine who's family 'adopted' me in many ways - taught me more about life and love and being a woman than my family EVER could have taught me (probably because my friend's family was so much more well adjusted). They may not have paid my bills, but they helped raise me.

I see the point about wanting to keep children in families with similar ethnic backgrounds, however no amount of ethnicity can take the place of sound mental health, strong love and open minds.

I may not be able to have children. If I can't, should I NOT adopt a child of another ethnicity? What if I can't find a 'white' baby... should I remain childless.... maybe I should just live with cats....
It's easy to try & break all this down logically, but without love we have nothing.

Dove
~Sheepish Lordess of Chaos~

"I can TAKE you!! I can beat you UP!!" Cyril - OZ

Email: Tygereyz67@aol.com

Dove, what is it about this topic that you "hate" so....it's not unlike any other "controversial" topic... what's so different about this one?

I think the ideas being tossed around here are just as they are anywhere else on the boards.

No one is disputing that children need love. I beleive that we all agree that its a catch 22. But love is the greatest factor. But let me ask you this: Did Phillip Drummond try and immerse Willis and Arnold in their culture? And although I know this was a fictional show, my point is that he illustrated a loving care-giver. Yet, I don't remember seeing him trying to keep them connected with their people.

So, I use that example as another facet of our discussion.....would Willis & Arnold have got "immersion" had then been adopted by a Black family? I think so.

So, then should we leave our Black babies un-cared for because of the color of their skin. I say no. But whomever the caregivers are they ARE MANDATED out of love to let that baby know who he or she is - immenently...culturally. And I think those exercises require a conscious kind of love.

And lastly, and Dove be honest (as I feel you will) do you think you would have more success adopting a Black baby than I would a caucasion one?

And Dove, it's allllll love, Gurl. Nothing personal at all....Let's just have some honest dialouge. OK?

Live and Love from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter if they've experienced it or not. but as far as experience i have experienced it in my family. my aunt and uncle are an interracial couple and they have adopted kids of both races. so i have to deal with the race/cultural issue quite often with them as my cousins.
and from what i've seen folks are giving their opinions from both sides of the issues.

--------sig-----------
"If you are an asshole keep your thoughts to yourself"
"If your intent is to hurt someone else's feelings for the sake of making yo'self look like a 'supastar', rethink your intent."
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

One of my black girlfriends adopted a white child and she and her husband caught "holy hell"!!!

_____________________
For Brainchild...
The Miss Cleo Quotes:
"Ha! You're walkin' around looking like a pauper while he's dressed GQ!"
"called to check 'pon the husband when it's you i should be checkin 'pon"

What about gays and lesbians adopting? I babysit for a couple (lesbian) who have adopted 5 children(4 black, 1 white) and have 3 more foster kids (all 3 black). When I first met them I thought it was really wrong for them to essentially make their children's lives so difficult. But now, after being around their family for a while, although its not an ideal situation IMO, the love that they provide makes up for everything the kids will go through as they get older. Besides that, no matter what, they are getting 100 times better lives than they would if they were with their biological parents, that is worth something.

Peace & blessings
jessie

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
-Bob Marley

"The orthodox is the unorthodox, they just got you on the names, the insane and the sane are the same."
-Aceyalone

the realm of adoption discussion, to fully examine this. Like:

Do you beleive that people are born gay/lesbian...yes then children are unaffected by the "atmosphere".... if no, then perhaps the children will "learn" gay-ness.

Are the gay/lesbian caregivers Black? yes...then they can certainly identify with the cultural aspects...sure! adopt!

Do they reside somewhere that recognizes same sex arrangements in terms of life/health insurance, gaurdianship, etc.....

OR maybe we can answer and discuss this. I'm down!

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz

I,I, I, Can't Wait!

nushooz@blackplanet.com

Lets discuss...

In the family I was speaking about, the caregivers (two lesbians) are both white. However, they try extremely hard to keep their children around black people, and to themselves if not teach, at least honor and encourage their learning of their culture. So, I believe that them being white doesn't harm the kids, except for the fact that it is socially unacceptable and might cause them problems later. But again Love is strongly than that.

I believe that gays/lesbians are in almost all cases born that way. So I don't think that will affect the kids, as far as their own sexual orientation goes.

The community they/I live in is extremely acepting of same sex relationships. Don't know if you've ever heard of Ithaca, NY, but it is like 2nd or 3rd in gays per capita, next to The Bay only, I think. Its generally a diverse community anyways, which is part of the reason I think their family works, its not unusual here. In fact I can think of 6 lesbian couples and one gay couple who have adopted kids, that is families that I know. Most of the kids are black, really all of them, I'm not exactly sure why that is??

Whats your take on the matter?


peace
jessie

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
-Bob Marley

"The orthodox is the unorthodox, they just got you on the names, the insane and the sane are the same."
-Aceyalone

there was a black woman who had been the foster parent then adopted mother of a biracial girl. The girl's sister, who was white, had also been in the home as a foster child but later moved out for reasons which escape me now. To keep with what Michigan claims it encourages, plus because a relationship had grown with the foster mother and the white sister, she tried to adopt her. It took her years because social workers tried to find every excuse in the book (and out) to keep the girl away from that house, but she finally was adopted and lives with her new mother and sister.

In cases such as this, I don't have a problem with interracial adoption. If the numbers were even as far as children of other races being adopted by non-white parents, I wouldn't have a gripe. But there are too many children of color being adopted by people who have absolutely no concept of what it is like to be, live around, congregate with people of color. Remember Losing Isiah, "When was the last time you had a black person over for dinner?", "Does he have any dolls of color besides Bert and Ernie? (something like that)".

I think that it is selfish to adopt a child, say that race doesn't matter, when it does for the child's well-being. Some people have grown up fine in this type of enviroment, but from what I've read and seen in interviews, it was rough.

Plus, I've know white people who adopt children of different races and still carry racist attitudes toward poc's(people of color). How dare someone show off pictures of their Asian child, but snub a Latino for asking them a simple work-related question.

I'm venting. Okay, my point's made.

*********************************************************
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September: Spit 4? Okay, I'll try it...

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While you sport Japanimated silk shirts and still look bummy.
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Cause I could still be the shit while I rock your great-granny's wardrobe.

Quotes start heah...
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do damage for damage be
unpredictable with map and compass
& weapons pressed against the cheek
--Sun Rise Missions, from Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions by Haki R. Madhubuti.

Thinking all the way back, I've known alot of kids of "asian" ancestry who were adopted by families of "white" ethnicity. Kids who were somewhat distinct from friends of Vietnamese ancestry and family.

Dean (ancestry & familY) was socialized by his friends, and his town-town roots to represent urban culture. Yet he could rock VietNamese traditions, holidays, etc. spoke the language, had a pet chicken (for real) etc.

Now some of these other cats were NOT FROM DOWNTOWN! Pseudo-suburban cats who acted like white valley girls, or typical bonehead--Yo I'm a guy suburban white men.

I wonder. But again, as cats mention, Black America is not approached the same way by racists and "notaracists" as just any adoption situation.

I HAVE known a few of our African ancestry brethren with "white" ethnicity families, AND two INDIAN (as in INDIA) ancestry black, black men with "white" ethnicity families.

--public school, what can I say!?--

these cats were very "white" not Carlton on fresh prince white, but the clothes, the speech patterns, the white-people work ethic (if you don't work, you are bad).

Nice cats, sure. But quite distinct from "black" culture to the point where they would not fit in at all.

They got the shaft, because ignorant cats from both black and white ethnicities ostracized them at times.

hmm. I wish I knew more, but I don't know most of these cats beyond the surface.


I think the kids will be as fine as their environment can provide for them. BUT MOST FAMILIES AREN'T CULTURALLY INCLUSIVE OR PHILOSOPHICALLY "down" ANYWAY...

Take a child of African anceestry and put it in a "black" family that just so happens to be wealthy, self-serving and disinterest in the struggles or uplifting or normal people.

That kid is at a disadvantage.

Take a child of northern-european ancestry and put it in a ethnically "black" family that rocks black power, Amiri Baraka plays, and goes to the Nuyorican Poets cafe every wednesday for open mic night--and that kid will know what's up.

Those are extremes though.

On average, it's gotta be tough.