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Topic subjectBullshit Dead Prez statement
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20377, Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 07:09 AM
All do respect to thier "attempts" to be revolutionaries.
The particular statement I have a problem with is this:
"I got cousins in the military, as far as I'm concerned they die" No true revolutionary would wish death upon thier working class comrades, and no true Socialist would kill thier blood born family or speak about it with no remorse. I believe that Dead Prez make many statements for shock value rather than to actually change anything. Many working class revolutionaries know the importance of treating the military as comrades in the same working class. Also no one should advocate violence except in the case of seld defense. Also in They Schools, Dead Prez are quoted "All these teachers can suck my dick...." Wouldn't it be more effective to say "All these teachers can check the curriculum(sp) and make the education system right, and the student can too"

I do not subscribe to the brand of thought Dead Prez is SELLING.

JUSTICE
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20378, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by Shimmy, Thu Oct-26-00 08:01 AM
Its difficult to critically look at the message of an artist.As a musician, painter, dancer etc, can you express a politically conscious message in a artistic manner?
We expect politicians and activists to choose their words carefully, to ensure their message is conveyed as accurately as possible.Should we expect the same from a poet?

For instance--is their art to be considered a reflection of their reality, versus a statement of their position?Is the effect meant to promote discussion, expose an issue, or merely to piss people off?

This was always an arguement around punk rock lyrics in the 80's.I remember all the attempts to decipher Dead Kennedy lyrics--probably one of the most political bands ever--but their lyrics taken out of the "punk rock" context were shocking(to say the least!!!)

I've always felt, as a consumer of underground music, that I was intelligent enough to take what I needed from a song. I also think I am strong enough in my positions to not be manipulated by an artist's opinion.

Mos Def is a current example of this for me...I absolutly love Black on Both sides.He makes some pretty contentious statements which I disagree with. Not enough of an issue for me not see and appreciate the art behind the message. Plus, I respect his right to hold those opinions.And, I also appreciate the fact he has enough passion to write about these ideas.

I think the world is richer because these artists are talking about what is real...rather than some formulatic crap generated strictly to make money.

Shimmy

20379, Jello Biafra
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 08:13 AM
always came with the exact problem, he did blow things out of proportion, but he had a perspective, so do Dead Prez, but the aforementioned statements I have a problem with should be hels for accountability. Bad Religeon is another example of lyricism with solutions proposed. "...suck my dick.." isn't solving anything at all. I think if you want to convey a message, you should have an all around answer, within that message...

JUSTICE
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20380, one other thing
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 08:17 AM


>
>I think the world is richer
>because these artists are talking
>about what is real...rather than
>some formulatic crap generated strictly
>to make money.
>
Thats how I see these statements, is it possible that since they dont wish to be "jiggy" they figure they can put out a record with "kill whitey" type messages to sell? I really like some or most of the situations they pose, but I dont think they really considered the entire movement before they prepped a role...


JUSTICE
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20381, RE: one other thing
Posted by Shimmy, Thu Oct-26-00 08:54 AM
But should they be harnessed with the responsibility of proposing solutions??Or is that a job better left to public policy makers?
Now, I can see that constantly writing material that is seen as merely bitching would get tired pretty quick--I'm not sure I see the artist playing the role of problem solver.
I keep thinking of Gwar shows--ever see them??Man--they were sooo theatrical and pretty much violated every possible rule--offending EVERYONE!!.But,ooooh the shows were so primal..so much about ripping away every social convention...and wallowing in the muck!!!A big general "fuck you" to the society we find ourselves living in.....
Its all about expression--and sometimes that is not pretty--its angry, reactionary--ugly.

shim
20382, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:22 AM
Dead Prez couldn't really be serious about revolution, now could they? All you see is a money making scheme. Believe it or not, not a great deal of people have gone platinum or made it rich by being true to African Liberation. Instead, as far as history notes, all I see is COINTELPRO, just to name a few. But if you see it differently, if Africans are getting rich off "kill whitey" messages, then enlighten me; I'm all eyes!
20383, LIES
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:41 AM
Dead Prez is highly active in a movement called UHURU (freedom) if you dont know anything about the movement then you're just not aware. Dont speak out of ignorance with such determination.

K
20384, RE: LIES
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 02:22 PM
Koalalove, just so we are on the same page. I am an advocate of Dead Prez's message. I know about Uhuru, very well, in fact thier Philly office is one block from where I stay. I just need some clarification on your statement: Are you saying that I am ignorant or the JUSTICE is? Jus wanna know?

you be cool
20385, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:22 AM
Dead Prez couldn't really be serious about revolution, now could they? All you see is a money making scheme. Believe it or not, not a great deal of people have gone platinum or made it rich by being true to African Liberation. Instead, as far as history notes, all I see is COINTELPRO, just to name a few. But if you see it differently, if Africans are getting rich off "kill whitey" messages, then enlighten me; I'm all eyes!
20386, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by k_orr, Thu Oct-26-00 08:38 AM
>All do respect to thier "attempts"
>to be revolutionaries.

I have a little more respect for them nowadays.

>The particular statement I have a
>problem with is this:
>"I got cousins in the military,
>as far as I'm concerned
>they die" No true
>revolutionary would wish death upon
>thier working class comrades, and
>no true Socialist would kill
>thier blood born family or
>speak about it with no
>remorse.

Where is this stated in the literature?

I believe that Dead
>Prez make many statements for
>shock value rather than to
>actually change anything.

They are trying to get a charter school together just like the panthers did back in the day.

>Dead Prez
>are quoted "All these teachers
>can suck my dick...." Wouldn't
>it be more effective to
>say "All these teachers can
>check the curriculum(sp) and make
>the education system right, and
>the student can too"

Perhaps, but these folks aren't politicians. On top of that they are young. You can't expect them to be polished and have rhyming policy statements with full footnotes and addenda.

k. orr

20387, fucking asshole JUSTICE,
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 08:40 AM
I didnt even wanna respond..but the post called me like crack to Pookie...umm basically they feel the U.S. Military is against everything they stand for(and it is.)..so if it came down to it..if your cousin is with the "MAN"...even your fam gots to go.
20388, RE: fucking asshole JUSTICE,
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:12 AM
you hit it right on the nose. The problem with most people who respond to sensitive issues like this, is that they are not grounded in their knowledge or don't have a understanding of the system, especially if they are not Africans like Dead Prez. People seem to spit off their first emotions as opposed to doing their homework. In additionn to that, no one seems to address what created their political position.

you be cool
20389, More LIES
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:48 AM
The author of this thread is from what I remember a very resourceful supporter of socialist theory. The passion that he represents is not that of a common listener being offended but someone who values socialist ideas that dead prez (who claim somewhat to be socialist) seem to contradict.

I think the disagreement is more a matter of interprative assessments than a challenge to the fundamental socialist theories.

1. I dont think Dead Prez would ever advocate killing Black people.

2. I dont think Dead Prez said here that they would kill their cousins.

3. The only case that they might feel or claim to be justified in killing their cousins would probably be under the circumstances of full scale revolutionary assault- and under those circumstances given their commitment surely we can understand why killing fam may not be righteous- but damn sure necessary.


If they raise a gun to you- they are not a comrade.

K
20390, One mooooore thing...
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:51 AM
Justice- are you sure Dead Prez are socialists- my impression was that they appreciate and support some socialist values- like economics but not necessarily all socialist tenements.
20391, Thank you truely Koala
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 12:12 PM
>The author of this thread is
>from what I remember
>a very resourceful supporter of
>socialist theory.
Guilty

The passion that
>he represents is not that
>of a common listener being
>offended but someone who values
>socialist ideas that dead prez
>(who claim somewhat to be
>socialist) seem to contradict.

Thank you.

>I think the disagreement is more
>a matter of interprative assessments
>than a challenge to the
>fundamental socialist theories.
>
>1. I dont think Dead Prez
>would ever advocate killing Black
>people.

Thats what I was wondering, but if the national guard converged on one of their concerts are they even gonna do shit to stop EVERYone's heads getting bashed? If they did become combative will they pick out only "white" guardsmen?

>2. I dont think Dead Prez
>said here that they would
>kill their cousins.

upon relistening I was mistaken, what they still said was questionable to me..

>3. The only case that they
>might feel or claim to
>be justified in killing their
>cousins would probably be under
>the circumstances of full scale
>revolutionary assault- and under those
>circumstances given their commitment surely
>we can understand why killing
>fam may not be righteous-
>but damn sure necessary.
>
>
>If they raise a gun to
>you- they are not a
>comrade.
>
I concur, but the working class military probably joined to escape extreme poverty (as were the case with most of my family) so there's a good possibility they can be revolutionaries, and who better than those who are trained????


JUSTICE
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20392, ISA thanks for the respect
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 12:06 PM
I never said I was pro military, however the focus of the fight should be turning the working class poor and "minorities" against those giving the orders. Most of my family was/is or works within the US military complex (c'mon man I live in the largest military complex in the EARTH!!) Its fine if we all are against what the armed forces represent. I'm saying do not count a man in uniform your enemy without discussion, or aggression against you.

JUSTICE
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20393, yo Jus,
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 08:50 AM
i gotta go..we'll create a post onthis topic"U.S. SOldiers..enemy..or pawns in the game"...peace
20394, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:15 AM
Hey JUSTICE, which is an ironic name considering the topic, can you please, please define what a revolutionary is. Oh and can you tell me how you came to your definition? Books maybe?

thanks baby cakes
20395, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 12:15 PM
>Hey JUSTICE, which is an ironic
>name considering the topic,
Hows that?

can
>you please, please define what
>a revolutionary is. Oh
>and can you tell me
>how you came to your
>definition? Books maybe?
>
>thanks baby cakes
What is a revolutionary to you?
Recent Literature:

Communist Manifesto-Marx and Engels
Teamster Rebellion-Farrell Dobbs
Marxism and freedom of state-Micheal Bakunin

read those and get back to me

JUSTICE
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20396, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 02:26 PM
I am familiar with those books. Which confuses me even more about how you imply that Dead Prez are not sincere revolutionaries. Do you do revolutionary work?
20397, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 03:06 PM
I speak often here in San Diego with the Mumia Coalition, I work and demonstrate with the IAC, and have been knoown to run with International Socialist Organization http://www.internationalsocialist.org so the answer is yes.
I do not doubt Dead Prez ability to become leaders in a revolutionary movement, and I do like thier album a lot. I just think there are statements that need to be made with tact, and solutions proposed within that particular album. I also understand that I can not know thier experiences because of regional, and racial divides. However I believe in my heart that Dead Prez has a lot of realizations to make before what they say, and reality can merge, the most prominent being slanderous towards "whitey" I know the difference between a poor white working class man that (for all I know) could be considered an enemy, and a priveledged upper class white man hell bent on profit and class struggle.

You know Bakunin? Really?

JUSTICE
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20398, class/race
Posted by illosopher, Thu Oct-26-00 10:11 PM
I'm sure in time they will see how class has created race, but remember these cats are from down south. Most southerners i know are mad anti-white, i guess for good reason. unless your are from the south or spent some time there, you can't even speak on a Southerners racial perspective. In my band we have a White dude from Bethlehem, Pa (D-Best), and one southerner from around the same part of FLA (E-Funk). E-Funk was so amazed that D-Best was a genuine, sensitive, and culturally hip White Guy. He thought all white guys were either stiff Al Gores or Fred Durst wannabee Wiggers. But a chill white guy he could not fathom. He couldn't believe he was real, he thought a White Guy like him couldn't exist! I think this indicative of how Dead Prez looks at whites, i'm sure their view will grow. Hey Malcolm used to say the type of stuff, until he met some real white cats, so let's hope the Dp'z do the same. My opinion is that they won't until they leave the U.S., or meet my man D-Best.

peace
20399, RE: Bullshit Dead Prez statement
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 04:48 AM
I can agree with the fact that Dead Prez needs to grow as everyone else does, but I'm on their side as far as politics are concerned.
20400, Question??? for Justice
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 07:30 AM
Why do you feel the answer lies with a Socialist Structure????

I am an econmist by study and I do not feel that socialism is the nessessary answer.

If I am not mistaken in most cases it has failed system in most cases and it is not a system that truly allows for individual freedom.


20401, RE: Question??? for Justice
Posted by JUSTICE, Fri Oct-27-00 08:02 AM
Individualism is the whole problem. Socailism failed due to Stalin's counter revolution of 1919 amd the concentration of forces to the front lines of WWI, and the collapse of the 3rd international. Socialism is not the be all, end all, answer to the ill of society, no "ism" can be. It is however, a first step to class deconstruction, and an form of "insurance" if you will that the poor and working class can get an education, health care, and a true chance ot equality. Reread "First Step". It is also a fact that when the Bolshevik Revolution happened in 1917 that the largest imports to the region were literature and art supplies. On a separate note, art being witout cost, or profit is true individual freedom. Individualism is what perpetuates greed, and prevents unity of a working class.

JUSTICE
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http://www.neckexersize.com
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20402, Agreed
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 09:54 AM
Read Post at the bottom...

I gave my two cents.
20403, Thats not what they said
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 09:39 AM
the full line is

"I got cousins in the military, as far as I'm concerned they died when the registered."

Dead Prez never said anything about killing their cousins- I think this represents the idea that Blacks enlisting in the military are volunteering for death at the hands of political agenda not necessarily the revolutionaries that they might come up against. This is a popular notion of Black militance particularly fostered by the Black experience in Vietnam.

As for the teachers comment- thats not in the context of the song thats just the talk at the end- he did say, "as far as Im concerned..."

K
20404, RE: Thats not what they said
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Oct-26-00 10:06 AM
maybe i shouldn't talk cuz i don't know the song, but really when someone signs up for the military they are signing a deal that says that they are willing to die for their boss

which is a sad, upsetting thing because they support so many peoples' education and provide jobs and travel opportunities to a lot of people i care about, but the act of joining the military is the act of signing away your life.

so they were right-

just because you are an artists with a following doesn't mean you have to be right or agreeable all the time anyway
20405, ?
Posted by Soul Brotha, Thu Oct-26-00 10:25 AM

From this post, its hard to tell whether you are for or against the military. As you said, the military provides numerous opportunities, so where is the problem? Yes, joining the military means you will follow orders & possibly die, but what are the odds of seeing any action, or being killed, in today's military?
20406, So they shall not be forgotten.
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 10:34 AM
ummmmm....17 soldiers were killed less three weeks ago

suicide bombings
terrorist attacks
failing peace talks

the odds of seeing action and being killed may not be great- but things are changing very rapidly
20407, All That to Say?
Posted by Soul Brotha, Thu Oct-26-00 11:05 AM

Action is always increasing, imminent, however, given the number of soldiers in the U.S. military, the number of U.S. miliatry bases worldwide.....given the statistics, the chances are slim to none. Terrorism against American troops has been a threat for the past 20+ years.
20408, RE: All That to Say?
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 11:14 AM
The US ARMY could fill up half the world but they still cant prevent wars that take place between other countries- at some point those wars will oblige our involvement and at that point there's no telling how far it might escalate. Currently there are quite a few of these wars taking place- the more the US spreads itself thin to oversee other countries affairs the less capable it is of covering all its angles - to think it has all those bases covered even in peace time is naive.

Dont front the US military is the best- but they aint infallible.

The USS COLE didnt get blasted cuz somebody just got lucky.

K
20409, RE: So they shall not be forgotten.
Posted by Shimmy, Thu Oct-26-00 11:06 AM
Besides--I would not think they are talking about being "dead" in the literal sense--but rather in a spiritual or political sense.
And that is a tough one again...
I don't think I could ever truly understand why a person would enlist in the military(or the police force for that matter).Those institutions represent ideals which make me shudder.
But--the military recruitment campaign deliberately targets those in lower socio-economic positions--offering a way out of their predicament.
A deal with the devil as far as I'm concerned--but I'd certainly hate to blame the victim.

shim

20410, RE: am i for or against the military?
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Oct-26-00 10:59 AM
i am for people gettin the education and employment that they need and deserve and that they shouldn't have to sign a contract for.

i am all for the opportunities that the military has to offer.

but am i for the military? how much is education worth to you? employment? your life? some things ya can't put a price tag or a weight on. if ya could, you could guage the military.

and really, once you start discussing military conflicts, you've openned up quite another huge can of worms. the us military is sanctimonious and stupid. kinda like a big frisky dog in a china shop. they say that they're peacemakers, but they hafta choose sides instead of looking at the humanity of the thing. they say they care about humanity, but they think with their damned wallets. and then they employ scapegoat soldiers, like they are in sierra leone right now.

and i could get into a discussion of the media. really, i think your little question is too big... because one thing tumbles into another...
20411, Apologies
Posted by Soul Brotha, Thu Oct-26-00 11:10 AM

Indeed, my question was vague, but I asked it not to defend the U.S. military, but the people who enlist. For many people, the military is the only option for college tuition and making a better lives for themselves. Just b/c none of us had to do it, assuming that is the case, we shouldn't judge those who do.
Just thoughts.

I agree with you on the heavy-handedness of the U.S. military. The actual number of lives they have taken in Africa in the past decade alone is probably mind-boggling.
20412, RE: Apologies
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Oct-26-00 11:39 AM
>I asked it not to
>defend the U.S. military, but
>the people who enlist.
>For many people, the military
>is the only option for
>college tuition and making a
>better lives for themselves.
>Just b/c none of us
>had to do it, assuming
>that is the case, we
>shouldn't judge those who do.

that's what i was saying, how can you put a price on your education and your future and why the hell do you have to make a choice like that in the first place!

i'm not in the military, but i'm not gonna fault people for joining the army in order to pursue their goals. i'm just gonna say man, that's a hard decision you had to make.

20413, RE: am i for or against the military?
Posted by Shimmy, Thu Oct-26-00 11:31 AM
Hmmmm I don't really see the US military as a big frisky dog-- but rather as a scary ass pitbull with a wicked case of rabies(my apologies to any pitbulls).

Shimmy
20414, RE: pitbulls
Posted by guerilla_love, Thu Oct-26-00 11:36 AM
hey man, are you insulting my dog?!

no, really, though, it depends on if the pitbull knows he's dangerous, and really i don't know any pitbulls well enough to know...

but that's the whole thing about america, anyway, it's always stepping on toes in the name of righteousness without realizing how whack it's (her? his?) values are.

20415, RE: pitbulls
Posted by Shimmy, Thu Oct-26-00 11:47 AM
I'm pretty sure the whole pack of dogs--the CIA, FBI,the military--know exactly what they are doing--and it AIN'T in the name of rightuousness.
Don't get me started.....I spent years spouting anarchist rhetoric aimed squarely at the evils of American imperialism.
Phew!

Now...what were we talking about?}>
20416, RE: pitbulls
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Oct-27-00 07:00 AM
ever been to the midwest? how can you explain george bush? why are there so many conspiracy theories in america? where does that whole hatred is not a family value shit come from?

yes, the people involved in specific deals know about them, but not many others.

we talk about america like it's so exempt and the damned president's limo has a machine gunner aimed at people on the street as he goes to church on sunday

i think in this country you have to work hard for your consciousness, and most people are just too damned lazy and wanting to be idealistic...
20417, RE: pitbulls
Posted by Shimmy, Fri Oct-27-00 07:59 AM
People are too busy pursuing the goal of material wealth, status, hating their neighbour etc to be concerned with being conscious.And thats just the way the "man" likes it.

As someone who has spent a lot of time studying US foreign policy--your country scares the shit outta me!!So much tyranny carried out in the name of freedom and democracy.

Spoon fed pride in the flag from day one--pledge of allegiance and all that.Most cats blindly accept what the govt tells them to believe. They can't see that money and power are running the show--and the advancement of the average citizen does not enter that equation--or at most its given token lip service.

Shim
20418, RE: pitbulls
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Oct-27-00 09:30 AM
you know what scares the hell outta me? i was raised in america, in the midwest, no less. i was fed all this flagwaving bullshit from the beginning. my family has seen me as confrontational from the time i first learned to talk and question.

but it's like you open up your eyes and you have a simple truth right out there in front of them that contradicts what you've always been fed by the land of the free and the home of the brave...but the only backup you have for the truth you see is word of mouth, so it's all truth come in the form of conspiracy theories and urban legends

but then i talk to people from all over the damned world who don't blink an eye at our theories, because they are generally accepted as true.

anyway, i think my point is that the truth is very isolating out here. no one wants to hear it or believe it or no one cares, and so many people are so deeply tied up in the shit they feed you. not that i'm not, just that i'm fightin it and tryin to unearth what i can/ get all that partyfed crap outta my own sacred head
20419, RE: pitbulls
Posted by guerilla_love, Fri Oct-27-00 10:15 AM
y'know what i was just thinking of? huey from the boondocks.
20420, RE: Thats not what they said
Posted by JUSTICE, Thu Oct-26-00 12:20 PM
>the full line is
>
>"I got cousins in the military,
>as far as I'm concerned
>they died when the registered."

To me thats still unacceptable read previous replies...

>Dead Prez never said anything about
>killing their cousins- I think
>this represents the idea that
>Blacks enlisting in the military
>are volunteering for death at
>the hands of political agenda
>not necessarily the revolutionaries that
>they might come up against.
>This is a popular notion
>of Black militance particularly fostered
>by the Black experience in
>Vietnam.

I do not have a problem with that, whats wrong with liberation for all people? I guess thats another thread..

>As for the teachers comment- thats
>not in the context of
>the song thats just the
>talk at the end- he
>did say, "as far as
>Im concerned..."

Word, thanks for the clarity, as far as I'm concerned there's more effective ways to end such a powerful song..


JUSTICE
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http://www.neckexersize.com
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20421, dead Wrong...
Posted by illosopher, Thu Oct-26-00 09:58 PM
I disagree Justice, if you look at the socialist revolution in China, many people killed thier own fam, (moms, pops, etc.) Because they were agents of the status quo. The socialist movement is a revolutionary one that takes no special provisions for family... I think any true socialist would be apt to agree with DP on this one the, the military is an agent of the Capitalist monster whether they know it or not, plus if we revolted it the would the DP's cousins comin' to get us, (i think that is where they are coming from wit' that statement. What i think they (DP'z) are saying is that they have to treat their cousins in the military as dead because if i all goes down it will ON AND POPPIN', and liberty will have to take priority over family...So they feel they should end that relationship, as to avoid any emotional turmoil...

peace
20422, to be american is to be revolutionary
Posted by guest, Thu Oct-26-00 10:52 PM
our nation is founded on revolutionary principles. the revolutionary is more american than anyone else. people who vote are stand-bys. on lookers. i am a true citizen. i am a revolutionary. i gave an oath to protect my country, and that is why i am a revolutionary. i serve in the military now. i don't agree with this country's military industrial complex, but i don't feel that i am a part of that. i gave an oath to protect you, the flag, and to be a citizen. therefor, i am a revolutionary. ain't nothin wrong with our brothers in the military.

the mighty lorok leads the way.
20423, are you serious???????
Posted by stevelove, Fri Oct-27-00 02:15 AM
If you are in the military you're part of the military industrial complex as you and others call it. Butr take heart so is everyone else on this post. As long as we keep living in and enjoying the benefits of this society, can we really be against it??

The united states was not founded by revolutionaries. That is what they tell you in 7th grade. It was founded by economic opportunists. Point blank. Think about it.



"Eff guns, we pack pentiums!!"-Stevelove
"Ya battle, you wont have no nuts like Tevin Campbell"- Mil
http://www.savehiphop.com- peep it

20424, RE: to be american is to be revolutionary
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 04:56 AM
"ain't nothing wrong with brothers in the military."

yeah right, Bro. The very system that you so earnestly protect is waging war against your people in the ghettos of America. In addition, the country is and always has been against African people (so called african americans) and other people of color. You've be hoodwinked, bamboozled. You have joined ranks with the enemy. Ain't that much college money in the world, gone make me work with the enemy. I feel sorry for your type.

you be cool.
20425, i don't really expect anyone to see it the way i do, but...
Posted by guest, Mon Oct-30-00 07:39 PM
i hate our government. point blank. i will not side with them if a revolution happens. however, many men better than any of us have died with the ideal of our freedom. i serve to honor their memory. i serve because i love my country. i just hate the government. i do not serve the military industrial complex. i serve my first sergeant.

the mighty lorok leads the way.
20426, American Revolutionary?
Posted by Soul Brotha, Fri Oct-27-00 05:25 AM

To my understanding, the American Revolution was based on taxes, not human rights. Once you look at the truth - the fact that this country's 'founding fathers' had slaves, actually owned other human beings as livestock - how could you look back with pride & say you are continuing America's proud revolutionary history? You said those who vote are stand-bys & on-lookers. What do you mean by that?

.peace.
20427, 2pac..
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 02:30 AM

ironic quote: 'times of war we need somebody raw to rally the troops'

dunno, I think a lot of their stuff is taken too literal, too fundamental.

they're artists too and the message I got out of it is 'stand or submit.'

haven't necessarily offered a better path, simply stating they've had enough of the current one.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

in my head I'm thinking should I dodge the bullet? - dove/de la soul
20428, Find it Interesting
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 08:07 AM
I think Dead Prez and many people in the Movement feel that the answer is armed warfare.. I do not understand how an violent challenge to the government is the answer when it comes to the upliftment of our people.

I will make a point about the country we live in. It is one of the very few countries where forums like the one we are conducting right now can take place. People fail to realize that until they travel overseas and visualize it themselves. The freedoms and liberties within the Constitution are unique to this nation (the right to bare arms, freedom up speech and religion) and I don't think those priniciples should be challenged. Second point is that The United States is not a pure capitalist country as many people would like you to believe. The U.S. has many socailist programs (Welfare, Social Security, Medicare) and goverment agencies that are designed to so call help the people. There was only one county that is close to a true free market economy (Hong Kong). I can not go into the minds of the founders of this nation to determine what they were thinking when this nation was formed, and there were probaly many subversive movement within the founding of this nation. But if I am not mistaken Afrikans were present when this nation was formed and even contributed to the founding of this nation. Yes the system was designed by Europeans, with Afrikans as slaves, and has many flaws. But it is a cop out to dwell on that and not move progressively as a people.

One problem I have always had with the movement is the blame game that goes on within it. We are very quick to point to the problems without discussing a rational solution. One that would actually work and that makes sence. (would a true armed uprising really make sence ??????).


20429, Thank You
Posted by JUSTICE, Fri Oct-27-00 08:28 AM
I do not disagree with the point you made here. There is a problem all around. The priveldges we enjoy, should be ditributed and shared worldwide, it is our nation that will prevent this. The USA is partly "Socialist" but not in the terms, Marx, Engels, Lenin, or Trotsky intended. It is still an Imperialist country where the rich get richer, and the poor get incarcerated.

I love you idea that an armed revolution will not do, and this furthers my point that we need to show solidarity with working class soldiers, to further our movement, against those giving the orders.Our revolution must be one of Concious, not of Violence.

JUSTICE
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"Take my name off you sig right now"-Kash2099
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20430, But see here is the problem
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 09:51 AM
How would wealth be better spread????
Through a socialist system???

I don't think that socialism will work for a country in size bigger that Cuba. It can truly only work when the people are in accordance, willingly, to the system. What fails socialism is that it does not require people to be motivated for production. It is simular to the welfare state in the U.S. if people are not forced to work, which they are in China and most other socialist nations, then the country will fail to produce. The system naturally deligates freedom and limits peoples oppurtunities.

Thruth be told, I do not know if you are Afrikan, but as far as Afrikan people I don't feel that either system should be pigeonheld into out community. On the continent, African peoples traded and bardered with one another and three other continents with, not nessessarily an equal distribution, but with a common theme. That the wealth of the nation only be determined by how well the children and elders of that nation lived. Meaning that they lived for the betterment of the community and the nation as a whole. Not for individual gains but as a collective. These principles have eroded, Europenized, through time and that is what I feel has to change more that any economic or social system. The people mindstate has to change.!!!!!

Afrikans invented the economic systems that Europeans have copied, and demented, into manipulatived and exploitive systems of personal gain. Whether it is communism or capitalism.


20431, But see here is the problem
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 09:51 AM
How would wealth be better spread????
Through a socialist system???

I don't think that socialism will work for a country in size bigger that Cuba. It can truly only work when the people are in accordance, willingly, to the system. What fails socialism is that it does not require people to be motivated for production. It is simular to the welfare state in the U.S. if people are not forced to work, which they are in China and most other socialist nations, then the country will fail to produce. The system naturally deligates freedom and limits peoples oppurtunities.

Thruth be told, I do not know if you are Afrikan, but as far as Afrikan people I don't feel that either system should be pigeonheld into out community. On the continent, African peoples traded and bardered with one another and three other continents with, not nessessarily an equal distribution, but with a common theme. That the wealth of the nation only be determined by how well the children and elders of that nation lived. Meaning that they lived for the betterment of the community and the nation as a whole. Not for individual gains but as a collective. These principles have eroded, Europenized, through time and that is what I feel has to change more that any economic or social system. The people mindstate has to change.!!!!!

Afrikans invented the economic systems that Europeans have copied, and demented, into manipulatived and exploitive systems of personal gain. Whether it is communism or capitalism.


20432, But see here is the problem
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 09:52 AM
How would wealth be better spread????
Through a socialist system???

I don't think that socialism will work for a country in size bigger that Cuba. It can truly only work when the people are in accordance, willingly, to the system. What fails socialism is that it does not require people to be motivated for production. It is simular to the welfare state in the U.S. if people are not forced to work, which they are in China and most other socialist nations, then the country will fail to produce. The system naturally deligates freedom and limits peoples oppurtunities.

Thruth be told, I do not know if you are Afrikan, but as far as Afrikan people I don't feel that either system should be pigeonheld into out community. On the continent, African peoples traded and bardered with one another and three other continents with, not nessessarily an equal distribution, but with a common theme. That the wealth of the nation only be determined by how well the children and elders of that nation lived. Meaning that they lived for the betterment of the community and the nation as a whole. Not for individual gains but as a collective. These principles have eroded, Europenized, through time and that is what I feel has to change more that any economic or social system. The people mindstate has to change.!!!!!

Afrikans invented the economic systems that Europeans have copied, and demented, into manipulatived and exploitive systems of personal gain. Whether it is communism or capitalism.


20433, peep
Posted by JUSTICE, Fri Oct-27-00 10:17 AM
I believe that it is still a good First Step to a greater conciousness, and the motivation is greater when you are working for your community, instead of the rich man thats profiting from your skills. For the record I am not of African decent. (greman jew/Irish (not that it really matters ;-) ))

JUSTICE
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"Take my name off you sig right now"-Kash2099
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird

20434, Thank GOD!!
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 10:19 AM
He didn say "white"


it doesnt matter? certainly it does - its your heritage
20435, this may be another post
Posted by JUSTICE, Fri Oct-27-00 10:22 AM
but in terms of working towards a tolerant revolutionary movement I dont think it is. BTW, I got an email from a player saying that she was surprized you didnt tear me a new asshole for this thread, I was like Koala? He remembers me!

JUSTICE
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"Take my name off you sig right now"-Kash2099
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird

20436, Naw you're my boy
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 10:46 AM
Like I said- i really think its just a misunderstanding of the context more than anything- I only wish Dead Prez could speak on what they meant. Like I said I respect your position cuz you know what you're talking about as far as socialism goes- you raise very valid issues about the contradiction.
20437, One moooooore thing
Posted by guest, Fri Oct-27-00 10:47 AM
Quit picking on DP!
20438, I would love
Posted by JUSTICE, Fri Oct-27-00 11:01 AM
To see these guys speak, straight up Spoken word shit, I've mentioned again and again that I like the album, and the music, but from an actual action standpoint, I would like them personally to clarify their views. ( I know they dont owe no one this I'd just enjoy it)

JUSTICE
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"Take my name off you sig right now"-Kash2099
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird

20439, AWWW
Posted by UrbanCowgRRL, Fri Oct-27-00 11:24 AM
GROUP hug!!!

my two favorite activist boys :*..just wanted to say i love you both :*

and this thread is interesting...i need to read..i'm out

Much love,
Kyle

Made official by MISS UrbanCowgRRL
Surgeon General... - DPS...drunk posters society...y'all ain't ready!?!? We soldiers...don't be scurrrrrred


"i always tell people that fame is
nothing but a good publicist, while
talent is a genuine article..." ~ Pozi
20440, RE: this may be another post
Posted by guest, Sat Oct-28-00 08:20 AM
>but in terms of working towards
>a tolerant revolutionary movement I
>dont think it is.

No offense, but I think that one's heritage is incredibly important in terms of revolutionary work, given the previous history.

My greatest concern is that when organizations that are actually diverse start working towards specific goals, sometimes "white" (sorry Koala) guys get to do all of the talking. Not that they are malicious, but old power dynamics have a way of swinging back up, regardless of the context.

Fletch
20441, in society
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 12:14 PM
But everyone is trying to become the rich man at the top..
Expecially the underclass...

How would the redistributon of wealth work ?????

See one thing about free market economies that work in its favor is that if you know the system it can be manipulated. There are many microcommunities that flourish in the U.S.(Jewish, some Asian) due to their knowledge on how to manipulate the system.

The major thing is about wealth in the a free market economy is that it can change. It is harder for poorer communities, or poorer people, but as I stated it can be done and is done often.
Wealth just is not shared properly in the US but it can be, with the right mentality.
20442, in society
Posted by urbgriot, Fri Oct-27-00 12:15 PM
But everyone is trying to become the rich man at the top..
Expecially the underclass...

How would the redistributon of wealth work ?????

See one thing about free market economies that work in its favor is that if you know the system it can be manipulated. There are many microcommunities that flourish in the U.S.(Jewish, some Asian) due to their knowledge on how to manipulate the system.

The major thing is about wealth in the a free market economy is that it can change. It is harder for poorer communities, or poorer people, but as I stated it can be done and is done often.
Wealth just is not shared properly in the US but it can be, with the right mentality.
20443, RE: in society
Posted by guest, Sat Oct-28-00 08:12 AM
>The major thing is about wealth >in the a free market
>economy is that it can >change. It is harder for >poorer communities, or poorer people, >but as I stated it
>can be done and is >done often.


I am not so sure about wealth being shared often with poor communities. To the extent taxes may provide benefits to people in poor neighborhoods the money is shared, but that has nothing to do with a free market economy, rather it has everything to do with state control over resources.

Fletch


20444, You misquoted the lyric
Posted by incogx, Sat Oct-28-00 09:34 AM
You misquoted that line, or rather you left out the last hald of the scentence (possibly to make your case stronger... who knows maybe maybe not). The statement sticman made was, "i got cousins in the military but as far as i'm concerned they died when they registered." You just quoted him as saying "I got cousins in the military, as far as I'm concerned they die." Those are two very different statements because to just say, "they die" would mean he's talking about physically killing them, but to say "they died when they registered" has completely different meanings. I took that statement to mean he was speaking on mental death and being brainwashed into fighting and risking your life for a country that doesn't give a damn about your people. I don't agree with every last word that dead prez says, but I do agree that brothers can seriously lose themselves in the military. So basically I agree with that statement.

However I do think that "They Schools" has some valid points but at times they missed some of the biggest educational problems and scratched at the surface. Listening to it made my head nod but there was less food for thought than some of their other material. That was a song where they really could have revealed a lot of problems with the system but they overlooked too much so in essence it failed. BUT I do think that as a whole their LP is imporant and it does need to be listened to. If anything it will inspire us to go out and do something (not necessarily with a gun), and kill the apathy that plagues black folk today.

peace,
inCog


If anywon wan reach de badmon --> e me
at (smoovecog@aol.com)

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Quotes------

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“C Delores run... run run run Delores/ C
Delores look pitiful... pitiful pitiful pitiful Delores/ C Delores testify... Tupac did it Tupac did it Tupac did it/ C Republicans give her the Clarence Thomas Award... take it take it take it/ C Delores see Tupac's death... wash your hands wash your hands wash your hands/ C Delores smile... never again never again never again/ C Delores Tucker... f*ck her f*ck her f*ck her ...Nikki Giovanni

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20445, I was corrected
Posted by JUSTICE, Sat Oct-28-00 09:41 AM
and adjusted my arguement, thanks for the check tho. I agree with your views there, and "killing apathy" I wouldnt change something to make my arguement stronger, thats not how I operate, I basically heard them wrong in that statement, over and over again... Read the whloe discussion it went all over the place...thanks again..

JUSTICE
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http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"Take my name off you sig right now"-Kash2099
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
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