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Forum nameOkay Activist Archives
Topic subjectVoting:other side of the game
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=22&topic_id=20239
20239, Voting:other side of the game
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 06:40 AM
Im not saying that no one should vote- dont misunderstand me. I hope that any of your impressions of my views still allows you to understand that I see value in a variety of political strategies.

Most importantly i find that diverse political strategies are the best solution to the Black American situation.

Conducting these discussions has been difficult because Im not trying to step on the toes of those dedicated to voting efforts- Im trying to stop such dedication from becoming a burden on those with alternative dedications.

As to rights- there are a wide variety of rights that Black people have today that we can use but dont; its a shame that voting is seen as the primary obligation cuz the obvious reason is that voting is easy or convenient; well the struggle isnt.

If you are so inclined to live up to what our people died for...

You have the right to bear arms- this means you have a means of defending yourself and your people- given the crimes committed against our people I think those murdered would suggest this right is of the utmost importance.

You have the right to own land- by and large Black people dont own SHIT- this must change. There are places like Beulah Land that will stand to serve this need but I fear if it is not accompanied by similar and numerous efforts on a national level it will burn just like Wacco- and just like the MOVE.

You have the right to enlist in the military- many dont cuz they dont want to fight or die for the system. Look at it this way- the US military offers training and discipline pathologies that are nearly unparalleled throughout the world. If any Black man joins the army he is at risk of being assimilated into an institution that at some point may be turned against the Black community- BUT if that man is dedicated to his community he can bring back a great wealth of military experience to a much needed Black defense initiative.

You have the right to worship freely and be educated- but do you do so fruitfully? Do you study your texts (be they religious or academic) and share that information with people who have no texts to study? Do you retain information? Do extend your research beyond the bounds provided by your religion/curriculum to find information that reinforces it? Do these things so our community can be maintained in the sharing of knowledge not just education- this ensures not just intelligence but self esteem, self determination and purpose.

You have the right to vote- but do you use its to its fullest extent? Me and Boodah are at odds about why Black people should vote- but nonetheless we both agree on HOW they should vote. Vote intensively and actively- more often than once every four years. Educate your community on voting opportunities and voting options. Committed to the community (and that means the entire community not just the constiuency) a Black voter CAN make a change- although I cant say that you will change the government you can change how your community interracts with that government and at least demonstrate that the common man (voter or not) has power. Vote to ensure funding for your district, vote for funding for rehabilitation programs and child care- but dont get played by the game that has so many politicians thinking that the will of the constiuency is all that matters. FUCK A PRESIDENT.

You're not obligated to do any of this but any of this can help our community- if above and beyond all this you have no interest in participating then that too is your right, but your inactivity is not the honor that i meant to represent when challenging the insults made at non voters.

You should vote if you have faith in the system (and have nothing to compel you to not register with it)

OTHERWISE: You should be willing to realize that the alternative to the system as proposed by the US government (at least immediately) is one of strife, poverty, and struggle- one of humility - and one of obligatory discipline. As an American (supposedly) you are entitled to disagree with the system of government available and you also have the right to persue alternative politics. You even have the right to be apolitical- but thats is MOST DEFINITELY not my intention.

If you didnt vote- try studying socialism, separatism, rastafarianism, maybe even Islam. Volunteer with organizations like the UHURU movement, the New Black Panther Party, The Black Hebrews, or the Shrine of the Black Madonna. NEVER EVER FORGET- the freedom riders, the MOVE, Marcus Garvey, the Underground Railroad, the Maroon- the RESISTANCE.


K






20240, just one thought
Posted by janey, Fri Nov-10-00 06:54 AM
"You have the right to own land- by and large Black people dont own SHIT- this must change."

"By and large" may be correct, but at the time of the civil unrest in 92, LA papers were reporting this interesting statistic: A higher percentage of homeowners per capita in South Central Los Angeles than in Pasadena. Pasadena, for those lucky enough to not live in the LA area (apologies BooDaah, you would be the only reason to live there), is a wealthy, predomininantly white (sorry K, just using this as shorthand) suburb of Los Angeles.

This statistic was cited in rebuttal of the largely white, largely wealthy perception that Blacks were tearing up the city because they had no ownership stake in it.

I agree with you that home ownership is a good thing. But I would be interested to see more hard information on this issue.

Peace.
20241, there's a difference
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 07:16 AM
between owning a home and owning land

while hard information on the land owned by Blacks in America would be compelling- im afraid it comprises my intentions to present those here.

no matter how much land we have- we need more
20242, but
Posted by janey, Fri Nov-10-00 07:42 AM
land ownership (title) is ultimately determined by reference to government records, right? So wouldn't squatting be just as effective?

Also, if ownership in the eyes of the government is the goal, don't overlook California and Florida, where homesteading is the law (perhaps some other states as well). Under the law, essentially, you can be stripped of all other assets to pay bad debts, but you can protect all or a part of your equity in the property.

And while home ownership and land ownership are slightly different, for most people in the world, irrespective of race, they amount to the same thing. Home ownership without land ownership = trailer. Land ownership without home ownership usually = investment property, which usually follows home ownership rather than precedes it.

Peace.
20243, RE: but
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 09:42 AM
>land ownership (title) is ultimately determined
>by reference to government records,
>right? So wouldn't squatting
>be just as effective?

no landownership also invokes properties of community establishment and development. Squatters can be removed - if you remove a landowner (in theory) you have and entire community to address.

>Also, if ownership in the eyes
>of the government is the
>goal, don't overlook California and
>Florida, where homesteading is the
>law (perhaps some other states
>as well). Under the
>law, essentially, you can be
>stripped of all other assets
>to pay bad debts, but
>you can protect all or
>a part of your equity
>in the property.
>
>And while home ownership and land
>ownership are slightly different, for
>most people in the world,
>irrespective of race, they amount
>to the same thing.
>Home ownership without land ownership
>= trailer. Land ownership
>without home ownership usually =
>investment property, which usually follows
>home ownership rather than precedes
>it.

you guys really dont see it do you

land ownership means land

land means earth

earth means crops

crops mean food and all sorts of resources.

Im not talking about mansions people Im talking about villages and communes and farms; owning land that can nourish you- not just a lot that you can invest in.
20244, thank you!
Posted by el_rey, Fri Nov-10-00 10:58 AM

>
>land ownership means land
>
>land means earth
>
>earth means crops
>
>crops mean food and all sorts
>of resources.

owning land is truly essential, and people of color in this country have been kept from the very source of all life for far too long.

Our children need to grow up knowing the feel of the Earth between their fingers, and know that they don't have to depend on the poisons that system will try to feed them/us.

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

not only am I a co-founder of the HBN, I'm a (daily) client. ;-)

"yo he preferido hablar de cosas imposibles ... porque de lo posible, se sabe demasiado" -- Silvio Rodriguez
20245, niggas aint ready for revolution
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 11:07 AM
If you have no intention of tilling the soil, slopping the pigs, milking the cows, raising a barn, building a home, stitching your clothing, fishing, slaughtering the chicken or cow- or at least harvesting enough vegetation to be a vegetarian, fashioning or procuring tools and weapons- not just for you but your community (or village) - then you should probably be voting your ass off.

My concern is- we're all gonna have to get knocked back to this reality as the revolution comes to fruition. My point is many communities are living fruitfully in that reality as we speak.
20246, unfortunately ...
Posted by el_rey, Fri Nov-10-00 11:15 AM

>My concern is- we're all gonna
>have to get knocked back
>to this reality as the
>revolution comes to fruition. My
>point is many communities are
>living fruitfully in that reality
>as we speak.

many more are slaves to the very system they are supposedly trying to overcome/destroy. I find that generally speaking, so-called revolutionaries are still far too caught up in the material trappings of capitalism/consumerism to figure out how valuable something like Gandhi's philosophy/strategy of non-cooperation can be to breaking free of their oppression.

My point has always been to try and realize decolonization on ALL levels: material, spiritual, ethical, emotional, educational. We need to check ourselves and understand where our very convictions come from and look within them for the same patterns of oppositional consciousness that we're fighting. But I'm getting off the point.

You don't know how glad I was when Arrested Development dropped "Children Play w/ Earth." I always wondered how much they meant it.


love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

not only am I a co-founder of the HBN, I'm a (daily) client. ;-)

"yo he preferido hablar de cosas imposibles ... porque de lo posible, se sabe demasiado" -- Silvio Rodriguez
20247, so how do I divest myself from the capitalists
Posted by k_orr, Fri Nov-10-00 12:30 PM
strategies please

k. orr
20248, read the list
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 03:30 AM
there are several disciplines that discuss methods of divesting- asking for those strategies to be represented in this forum might not be appropriate
20249, who are we buying this land from?
Posted by nahymsa, Mon Nov-13-00 06:17 AM
You can own all the land you want, that doesn't guarantee that you can KEEP it when those with more might than you decide not to honor your ownership & claim your land for themselves. Check Native American history, Hawaiian history,etc. The US government can & will take your land & even under the best circumstances, it can take decades to get it back.

What's your solution for that?
20250, RE: who are we buying this land from?
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 06:45 AM
In no way am I saying that enacting these rights will keep you safe from intervention by the state. Owning land only means that youll have something to defend when the US government makes moves that many are willing to conclude are inevitable.

much the same with bearing arms and voting- you have those rights but chances are participating with the us government in any fashion will typically leave you with the short end of the stick.

This thread provides demonstration of those rights that many argue that our people died for, they are not necessarily my plans for a revolution but the rights that are available but seldom used.


If the government takes my land- what can i do, my solution would be take up residency in other areas of solidarity- if the government takes those too well then itll probably be about time for war.
20251, RE: there's a difference
Posted by charger_fan, Fri Nov-10-00 07:48 AM
"no matter how much land we have- we need more"

I disagree in terms that ownership of land which belongs to indigenous people is as wicked as "white" ownership. Are you a pan-Afican? There is land enough to sustain all of us, private ownership is oppression.


charger_fan~Attorney General~DPS!
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
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20252, indigneous people
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 09:38 AM
as many of those indigenous people have very intimate ties with my ethnicity I dont see reclaiming their land as anyway similar to "white" ownership.

Im not necessarily Pan African- not because I oppose the movement but because i dont want Black people to migrate towards deliberately concentrated areas with the US government fully aware of their wereabouts.

I would encourage any pan african to go back to the motherland- just dont let the government know where you're going.
20253, indigneous people
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 09:38 AM
as many of those indigenous people have very intimate ties with my ethnicity I dont see reclaiming their land as anyway similar to "white" ownership.

Im not necessarily Pan African- not because I oppose the movement but because i dont want Black people to migrate towards deliberately concentrated areas with the US government fully aware of their wereabouts.

I would encourage any pan african to go back to the motherland- just dont let the government know where you're going especially if you plan on living there.
20254, not to mention ...
Posted by el_rey, Fri Nov-10-00 11:00 AM
that many people living in the US identifying as "Africain-American" have "indigenous" blood as well.

This is YOUR land.

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

not only am I a co-founder of the HBN, I'm a (daily) client. ;-)

"yo he preferido hablar de cosas imposibles ... porque de lo posible, se sabe demasiado" -- Silvio Rodriguez
20255, Very much so
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 11:13 AM
not to mention a history of that preceds Columbus were African people were welcomed with open arms.

As far as indigenous ownership- most indigenous people didnt believe in such terms but seeing as "palefaces" robbed them of their homes* I dont think they would mind us striking that claim and opposing the supposed "manifest destiny"

*Native Americans werent dismayed at having their land stolen- you cant steal land- its when their villages were burned that they got pissed.
20256, native americans....
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 09:30 AM
native american history would show just how tragic taking our lands away can destroy a culture. to me, it doesnt really matter who owns the land, cuz it will never really belong to anybody. i just hope some day we can all share in the prosperity of our society, monetarily as well as culturally.
20257, what you going to do when they come for you?
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 07:01 AM

good shit, koala! strike the empire back..
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

the street light reflects off the piss on the
ground which reflects off the hamburger sign
as it turns round which reflects off the chrome
on the b.m.w. which reflects off the fact
that I'm broke..now what the fck is new - boots/coup


20258, Ill stand firm
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 07:20 AM
"what you going to do when they come for you?"

I am a man of peace- "they" can come at me whenever they want- Im the least of their problems.
20259, good shit still..
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 08:00 AM

>I am a man of peace-
>"they" can come at me
>whenever they want- Im the
>least of their problems.

good shit still, though I didn't really mean anything by the question - was thinking of the erykah badu song in your subject line.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

the street light reflects off the piss on the
ground which reflects off the hamburger sign
as it turns round which reflects off the chrome
on the b.m.w. which reflects off the fact
that I'm broke..now what the fck is new - boots/coup


20260, double posts suck.
Posted by BooDaah, Fri Nov-10-00 07:30 AM
>Me and Boodah are at odds
>about why Black people should
>vote

for anyone who reads this. no we're not. after reading this very empassioned post (and agreeing with 99.9% of it), i'm really wishing he could have not misrepresented me. but whateverman.

i don't disagree withthe brothers reasons or stance one iota. i agree with some of the things he says, and with some of the logic he uses when arguing his points, but frankly what i agree with/don't agree with doesn't matter a hill to a hill of beans outside what I do to express MY ideologies/rights/wishes.

>You should vote if you have
>faith in the system (and
>have nothing to compel you
>to not register with it)

personally, i think you should vote based upon your own convictions about it. period. i also think someone telling others what they SHOULD do is a slippery slope. one must avoid doing the very thing to others that they take umbrage to someone doing to them.

beyond that...i say: listen to k, he knows things.
20261, No they dont
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 09:49 AM
Im speaking more of the impression that people might have of our exchange.

Double posts dont suck- sometimes they offer a much needed change of tone.
20262, Koala
Posted by charger_fan, Fri Nov-10-00 07:44 AM
(its JUSTICE here)

I think you make very good points. From a Revolutionary view. This is needed by and large to be known by the entire working class. The point I tried to make in my DP post you nailed. Military vetrans are gold to a revolutionary movement. Another statement regarding land ownership is also on point. I always wonder what could be done if Black Revolutionaries that hold these views replace "Black needs" with "Working and lower class needs" The people united can never be divided. As far as ownership I believe private ownership needs to be demolished. Why take power within thier system? Destroy that shit which is trying to destroy us!

charger_fan~Attorney General~DPS!
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"I'm a loser baby so why dont you kill me"-Beck
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird





20263, totally off topic
Posted by BooDaah, Fri Nov-10-00 07:50 AM
>(its JUSTICE here)

what's the point of changing your name if you're gonna keep explain who you are and/or referring to yourself by the old name?

funnnnnnnyyyyy..
20264, just in case?
Posted by charger_fan, Fri Nov-10-00 08:05 AM
so peeps know I'll be JUSTICE again after this sunday. Okay back to the discussion.

charger_fan~Attorney General~DPS!
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"I'm a loser baby so why dont you kill me"-Beck
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird





20265, RE: Koala
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 10:36 AM
" I always wonder what could be done if Black Revolutionaries that hold these views replace "Black needs" with "Working and lower class needs" The people united can never be divided.

I think the presunmption of Black revolutionaries is that these terms are synonymous. The problematic idea is that "white" people exist as one unit or class and for all intents and purposes they do- but you already know my intentions to declassify race.
20266, I agree I think
Posted by charger_fan, Fri Nov-10-00 11:51 AM
Wait, I'm not sure. Could you expound on this for me?

charger_fan~Attorney General~DPS!
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"I'm a loser baby so why dont you kill me"-Beck
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird





20267, RE: I agree I think
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 12:23 PM
The problem with Black revolutionaries is that they have no good reason to undermine the race classification that pervades this society. It would be a major strategic risk. For them Black people are the low/working class and while "whites" exist in the exact same social conditions their category places them above their peers.

Although I insist that race classification is a false, baseless, and demeaning system it is nonetheless the way of the land.

The Black revolutionary whether they are aware of this or not must make their strategies accomodate only the people that will go along- only the people they can trust. only the comrades.

to be frank- we cant trust "white" people

Im hoping that spreading the message of race fallacy will give us a clearer delineation of who we can trust and who we cant or at least who we can respect and who will continue to hide behind lies, im hoping it will give so called "white" people a chance to determine themselves beyond what the (class) system provides for them but even in all the talking Ive done and all the minds Ive supposedly changed

how many people still think they're "white"?

how many people will fall back on that when you tell them that the new Black nation involves living in the socialized presumption of "poverty" and being humble enough to value only that which the earth provides. The difference between the "White" and Black working class is that the "whites" believe they have a right to luxury and privilege whereas the Blacks want those same rights but understand that those rights arent for them.

the Black revolutionary cant build a nation from that constituency- im not saying you can trust all Black people to be down for the struggle but at least we can trust that the US government has no good intentions for them so if they sell out and try to cross lines they'll more than likely get caught in the crossfire. Dissenting "White" people would be welcomed and would compromise the resistance.

dont get me wrong- i wish it didnt have to be that way. you know im dedicated to the task of getting "whites" to dissolve their race classification but i dont have much faith in that- they are already disatisfied with the alternatives that are obvious and waiting for them.

The Black revolutionary intends to defend the working class but as much as that working class presumes the race classification of the state their pathologies are too derisive to be included within our security. The more they consider themselves "white" the more they are willing to be percieved as something superior to the common man.

you know the ranks of socialism better than i do- is a guy who presumes he's biologically better than his comrades a comrade at all?

If the "white" working class was dedicated to the premise of self determination beyond that which demeans human integrity- the force of the working class combined would surely topple the government institution unfortunately the "white" working class still has its identity vested almost entirely in the class system.

K

20268, I think that explains it
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 12:30 PM
the point is if Black revolutionaries could replace "Black needs" with "Working and lower class needs" we would be a few steps closer to an actual revolutionary force- right now we're just establishing revolutionary initiatives.

for that to happen we need the "white" working class needs to disavow their loyalty to race and reconstitute as ethnic peoples.

to fight with us- they must relate to us

to be comrades we must realize and honor that which we have in common; we will never have race in common but we have always had culture
20269, Good shit....
Posted by charger_fan, Fri Nov-10-00 01:00 PM
I completely agree with everything you stated. As far as what we socialists say, any man who believes his contribution to society and life is more important than the next based on race or class origin is subrscibent to the bourgouis and must be combatted. I always run into this problem, as a european decendant, I never embraced the "white" superiority complex, I rejected it profusely growing up. So in a personal context I feel that due to my appearance I will be judged as distrustworthy, or as an enemy of a movement I agree with greatly. This needs to be dissolved along with the "White lies"

charger_fan~Attorney General~DPS!
S.P.A.S. member and lover of:
http://www.recordkingdom.com
http://www.neckexersize.com
=============================
"I'm a loser baby so why dont you kill me"-Beck
Jumpin on the Banwagon: San Diego Player Shouts!
MikeCzech UNITE tashiko michealo Framamind lolatin 33andathird





20270, RE: Voting:other side of the game
Posted by Zesi, Fri Nov-10-00 07:49 AM
I agree with the fact that people should be more active.
I still think people should vote. because, to a qualified extent, we do affect the government with our votes. For example, if older people didn't vote, I'm almost sure we would have no Social Security for them.
Still,we affect each other with our actions. For example, it would be easier for me to agree with Koala if he did something for me.


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http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_


20271, Do we still have social security?
Posted by guest, Fri Nov-10-00 09:47 AM
"For example, it would be easier for me to agree with Koala if he did something for me. "

mos def- along those lines you must be willing to understand what i can and can not do
20272, RE: Do we still have social security?
Posted by Zesi, Fri Nov-10-00 01:20 PM
as in what?
The program is still around...yes. It's many seniors only means of support (and it doesnt pay that much, either).

http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20273, Koala strikes again!
Posted by el_rey, Fri Nov-10-00 10:54 AM
Had to say that THIS IS ONE DOPE-ASS POST.


love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

not only am I a co-founder of the HBN, I'm a (daily) client. ;-)

"yo he preferido hablar de cosas imposibles ... porque de lo posible, se sabe demasiado" -- Silvio Rodriguez
20274, can we go have a pizza..!?!?
Posted by UrbanCowgRRL, Fri Nov-10-00 09:56 PM
for real..and i'll just take notes..

Much love,
Kyle

Made official by MISS UrbanCowgRRL
Surgeon General... - DPS...drunk posters society...y'all ain't ready!?!? We soldiers...don't be scurrrrrred


"i always tell people that fame is
nothing but a good publicist, while
talent is a genuine article..." ~ Pozi
20275, Yeah really....
Posted by Ronnie76er, Sat Nov-11-00 01:39 PM
I would definitly love to hear K expound on some of his ideas....
------------------------------------
"True hip-hop is just like the underground railroad, if the message is not for you, it could sit on your nose, and your brain remain froze" - Common's Pops

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Ronnie76er
20276, Dont you get enuff of that?
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 03:33 AM
my views arent as innovative as they may seem- they are simply a representation of a variety of idealogies that Ive studied. check that list and read up on them- yoou dont have to convert or anything but youd be surprised how many political strategies answer the questions that capitalism and corporate democracy leave unattended.
20277, i dont talk while im eatin
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 03:31 AM
but ill get a pizza just for the hell of it
20278, I've figured out
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 04:54 AM
why we don't get along. You come up with explanations for things that I think are false or incomplete and at times flimsy--something which you probably think of the things I say. They follow some sort of logic...but logic ain't always right.
Plus, you don't stop posting if you're in an argument, which is hard for a college student to deal with.
I got work to do, moreno!


http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20279, if you cant stand the heat...
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 05:22 AM
Has any of my logic on the voting issue been unclear; have my explanations been false or incomplete? It bothers me that people have time to point stuff like this out after the fact when the opportunity is more than available to challenge my ideas when i say them. If you have work to do- then look the thread up in your spare time you're not obligated to match my frequency just the srticulation of your ideas.

if you have particular issues point them out- i have invited everyone to do so

as for me and you- i dont know you so the idea that we dont get along is not fair. we have discussions- sometimes we have differing opinions- that is to be expected. I wont stop posting if im in argument cuz i believe in what i say and hope to be heard- or even understood.


if anybody has a dispute theyd like to raise- please raise it and no more of this vague hindsight commentary

K

20280, RE: if you cant stand the heat...
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 06:04 AM
Your argument makes logical sense.
But I don't believe that it is totally true.
To accept your argument, you must believe that the system is a complete and total failure on the national level.
I don't believe that.
It mostly fails us, but it does do things that could very well affect us. And without our votes or large scale mobilization (which is not really happening), it can play us like 5 year olds do Candy Land.

http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20281, RE: if you cant stand the heat...
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 06:07 AM
things that the government does that help people:

social security
medicare and medicaid
affirmative action

all of which, the government could take away or downsize (and people in the government have been trying to do that...fairly successfully, I might add.)


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http://www.cartoonista.com
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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20282, RE: if you cant stand the heat...
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 07:01 AM
the things that the government doesnt let you vote on;

importing crack into the Black community

imposing sanctions on Iraq that caused thousands of infant and civilian deaths

categorizing american citizens by race classifications that are false and enable "white" privelege through supposed democracy

whether or not your vote will actually be counted or even entered (if you're Haitian)


all of which the government will do anyway- whether you like it or not
20283, I know.
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 08:30 AM
Just because they don't let me vote on that, doesn't mean there aren't things that I can vote on that are important to me and mine.

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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20284, Never said that
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 08:45 AM
But in your pledge to make things easier for us you admit that you support a government that makes things even harder and gives you absolutely no power to stop them.

You're defending a system that you admit doesnt work as well for Blacks as it works for itself.

I dont understand how much easier voting can make it when the government can enact any detrimental policy it wants and you have no say in the matter despite the fact that voting gives you a voice.

voting is damage control- its controlled damage


20285, typo
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 08:47 AM
voting isnt damage control- its controlled damage
20286, RE: Never said that
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 08:57 AM
Never said I was defending the system. I'm just working within the reality of the situation.

>You're defending a system that you
>admit doesnt work as well
>for Blacks as it works
>for itself.

Well, let's see. In certain key areas, we do have a voice. Definitely not in everything, and not in all the things that could be detrimental to us.

>I dont understand how much easier
>voting can make it when
>the government can enact any
>detrimental policy it wants and
>you have no say in
>the matter despite the fact
>that voting gives you a
>voice.

Many things have to go through Congress. Like I mentioned before, Social Security does not serve corporate interests at all. Yet, it's still around...and only because the elderly come out and vote fairly consistently.


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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20287, RE: Never said that
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 09:06 AM
>Never said I was defending the
>system. I'm just working within
>the reality of the situation.

You're working within a very limited scope of the reality of the situation. I suggested you look into other systems of politics- you declined becuase the two party system "holds more power" some would argue that it only holds that power cuz you give it to them. Perhaps if you gave your energy to other movements youd find that more changes are made on our behalf or at the very least there is an intention of good will.

>Many things have to go through
>Congress. Like I mentioned before,
>Social Security does not serve
>corporate interests at all. Yet,
>it's still around...and only because
>the elderly come out and
>vote fairly consistently.

And crack is still around cuz the government you enable brought it here without your knowledge or your consent much less your vote. hmmmmm compare the benefit of social secuirty to the detriment of the crack epidemic- are you so sure the changes you vote for are enough- even you admit that social security isnt.

K
20288, reagan was a bastard
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 09:54 AM
crack broke out in the 1980's when reagan was president. the government had the power then to resolve the problem in much better ways. they targeted young white kids and by making examples out of users, tossing them in jail. nancy, on her haughty pedestal, began the whole "just say no" campaign that did nothing in the wake of the whole epidemic.
20289, they brought it into the country
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 09:57 AM
Why should they fight to stop its influence.

You do know about Freeway Rick and some of the more attrocious elements of the Contra affair right?

The US government imported crack into the urban communities in exchange for diplomatic allegiance with the contras.

the Black community was literally sold out
20290, not to mention
Posted by el_rey, Tue Nov-14-00 04:02 AM
that importing crack at that time worked well to exstingush the fire that was still smoldering from the Black Power movement ...

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

not only am I a co-founder of the HBN, I'm a (daily) client. ;-)

"yo he preferido hablar de cosas imposibles ... porque de lo posible, se sabe demasiado" -- Silvio Rodriguez
20291, What are you talking about?
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 06:57 AM
Ive made several arguments- so which one is it that you dont find to be true?

The arguments i raised are as follows

1. I challenged the notion that Blacks are morally obligated to vote because of a large number of Black people who died for that right. My argument- Black people died for a variety of rights many of which we dont use and none of which are presented as the priority. Our moral obligation to vote is greatly diminished by the same legacy that urges resistance. That moral obligation is also diminished by the fact that other rights like the right to bear arms and enlist are NOT encouraged by our community despite the fact that Black people died for those rights just the same.

2. I challenged the notion that non participation is not something that hasnt been fought and died for by our people. The Underground Railroad, the Maroon, the Move- the works of Marcus Garvey all these things demonstrate quite clearly the notion of resistance and separatism and represents a much larger portion of the moral obligation that encourages assimilation and cooperation.

3. I challenged the idea that there was no good reason to not vote as there are plenty of good reasons- some may be singular excuses and beyond that there are many ideologies that stress non participation. I challenged the notion that non-voters were categorically idiots and not contributing to the struggle.

now what about those arguments do you dispute?

K

20292, RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 07:31 AM
>1. I challenged the notion that
>Blacks are morally obligated to
>vote because of a large
>number of Black people who
>died for that right. My
>argument- Black people died for
>a variety of rights many
>of which we dont use
>and none of which are
>presented as the priority. Our
>moral obligation to vote is
>greatly diminished by the same
>legacy that urges resistance. That
>moral obligation is also diminished
>by the fact that other
>rights like the right to
>bear arms and enlist are
>NOT encouraged by our community
>despite the fact that Black
>people died for those rights
>just the same.

I challenge that, because if we fought for all those rights, then we should be morally obligated to use all of them. Resisting voting has not helped black people at all...especially since large scale mobilization continues to fail. I'd rather not wait and hope if I can do one little thing that will keep me from being worse off than I already am.

>3. I challenged the idea that
>there was no good reason
>to not vote as there
>are plenty of good reasons-
>some may be singular excuses
>and beyond that there are
>many ideologies that stress non
>participation. I challenged the notion
>that non-voters were categorically idiots
>and not contributing to the
>struggle.

I don't think there are any good reasons to not vote. They may seem valid to you, but not to me. That's just a matter of opinion.



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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20293, RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 07:41 AM

>I challenge that, because if we
>fought for all those rights,
>then we should be morally
>obligated to use all of
>them.

What you fail to admit is that Black people also fought to not participate and resist this government at all costs. That presents a contradiction in our obligations. Would Garvey tell me to vote?

>Resisting voting has not
>helped black people at all...especially
>since large scale mobilization continues
>to fail. I'd rather not
>wait and hope if I
>can do one little thing
>that will keep me from
>being worse off than I
>already am.

Many would argue that voting hasnt helped Black people that much. Like i said- the government didnt let you vote on whether or not they would bring crack into our community. After they committed the crime we can vote on how to rememdy the situation but the fact is we're only resolving the problems that they cause nonetheless entitling them to do more damage. If the potnetial of voting is to keep us from being worse off than we already are then perhaps you should look into politics that have potential for resolving our situation and not just settling for it.


>>3. I challenged the idea that
>>there was no good reason
>>to not vote as there
>>are plenty of good reasons-
>>some may be singular excuses
>>and beyond that there are
>>many ideologies that stress non
>>participation. I challenged the notion
>>that non-voters were categorically idiots
>>and not contributing to the
>>struggle.
>
>I don't think there are any
>good reasons to not vote.
>They may seem valid to
>you, but not to me.
>That's just a matter of
>opinion.

you're not even considering the reasons- you're considering the excuses. Is rastafarianism not valid?

K
20294, RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 08:29 AM

>What you fail to admit is
>that Black people also fought
>to not participate and resist
>this government at all costs.
>That presents a contradiction in
>our obligations. Would Garvey tell
>me to vote?

Not all black people. Garvey actually had a plan to move black people out, so he probably woulda figured that we'd all be gone before there'd be any reason to vote.


>Many would argue that voting hasnt
>helped Black people that much.

And it hasn't. But it has hurt black people a lot. Voting is damage control.

>Like i said- the government
>didnt let you vote on
>whether or not they would
>bring crack into our community.
>After they committed the crime
>we can vote on how
>to rememdy the situation but
>the fact is we're only
>resolving the problems that they
>cause nonetheless entitling them to
>do more damage. If the
>potnetial of voting is to
>keep us from being worse
>off than we already are
>then perhaps you should look
>into politics that have potential
>for resolving our situation and
>not just settling for it.

I can look into other politics--I'm not aligned with any party because none of them seem to have my best interest in mind. However, the way things are now are just that--this is how it is...NOW. No other political groups are as powerful as the two in power today. There is no large scale black mobilization. We've been waiting for revolution for decades now...if it ain't happened yet, what makes me think it's going to happen now? All I'm trying to do is to keep from being worse off than I already am. And the damage that the government does much exceeds any good I could do being an activist, unless I think romantically and think I can change the world.


>you're not even considering the reasons-
>you're considering the excuses. Is
>rastafarianism not valid?

It is valid. But I would hazard that most people who don't vote aren't rastafari, or belong to belief systems that prevent them from voting.


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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20295, RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 08:39 AM
>
>>What you fail to admit is
>>that Black people also fought
>>to not participate and resist
>>this government at all costs.
>>That presents a contradiction in
>>our obligations. Would Garvey tell
>>me to vote?
>
>Not all black people. Garvey actually
>had a plan to move
>black people out, so he
>probably woulda figured that we'd
>all be gone before there'd
>be any reason to vote.

The contradiction diminishes the obligation- the point is we CANT do them all as you suggest cuz some of them contradict others. I never said all Black people but certainly more Black people have died for the cause of resistance than voting.

>I can look into other politics--I'm
>not aligned with any party
>because none of them seem
>to have my best interest
>in mind.

I think you have politics confused with parties. alternative politics are those that i suggested- socialism, separatism, etc.

>>you're not even considering the reasons-
>>you're considering the excuses. Is
>>rastafarianism not valid?
>
>It is valid. But I would
>hazard that most people who
>don't vote aren't rastafari, or
>belong to belief systems that
>prevent them from voting.

I never made that claim- I only represented that some people have such reasoning and to that you claimed they werent valid to you- now you've changed your mind.

K
20296, RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 08:53 AM
Why can't we do them all?
Life is full of contradictions.

and, I have only changed my mind a little bit.
:)


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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20297, Because
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 08:59 AM
If one imperative is to leave and another imperative is to assimilate we quite obviously cant do both. You can play the contradiction but you're only fooling yourself. Im not saying that either way is absolutely the right way but both ways have a great deal of good reasons behind them- and its insulting to undermine the role that resistance has played in the development of our people.

You can continue to setlle for what the government does but Im tired of people acting like thats good enough, or that we have no other options or even worse- claiming that this is what our ancestors would want us to do.
20298, RE: Because
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 09:04 AM
I'm not saying that's good enough.
I actually plan to be active in helping people for the rest of my life.
but I will still vote.

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http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20299, RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by 360sunsumyea, Mon Nov-13-00 09:13 AM
>All I'm trying to do is to keep from being worse off than I already am.

i think that is what a lot of people are trying to do, and that is precisely what they get. it's like the difference between praying for strength to endure and praying for a situation to end. IMHO, i don't want to pass on to my two children a legacy of continued struggle. for what? to say we tried? that's just not good enough for me. so the only strategies i will align myself with will be those i believe will work in bringing about lasting change in favor of my family and my people. because i would honestly rather let the govts agenda play out than be in a perpetual stay of warding them off. death is not the worst thing. but quality of life means of lot. at least to me.

**********THE SIG**********

they know my address- but thats not the same as knowing where i live. I live in a variety of transitive places and my potential for migration is enourmous.
Just cuz you can send me a letter doesnt mean you can get to me.
even if you can get to me- doesnt mean you can get me
even if you do get me- surely you dont think im the only one
-KoalaLove

i'm a tru pisces tryna flow in the direction of both of these okplayer quotes:

"I m raising a fuckin angelic being who is going to replenish this fuckin earths cuz in 2G all we fuckin do is talk.....im teachin my seed to turn his spirit inside out and spread beams of green light"
-nebbie

"GOd give me the strength to change the things i can, understanding for those i cannot and the muthafuckin heart to stand up for my beliefs and principles, so that when the government that is suppossed to protect me turns against me and my people we will have the means, the might and the muthafuckin gun power to blow away our oppressors
umm amen"
-earthqueen

and last but not least:

"all things considered, i'd rather be me"
-bfnh
20300, George Carlin
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 07:49 AM
If you vote then you dont have the right to complain.

I know people get that turned around but here's my point. By voting for incompetent, deviant, and deceitful people you take on responsibility for what they do in office. Me- I didnt vote - didnt even leave the house on election day. I have nothing to do with electing people that will fuck us over when they get into office. I have every right to complain about the situation YOU caused by voting these people in. You dont have the right to complain- cuz you're voice (vote) has already been heard.

George
20301, RE: George Carlin
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 08:34 AM
that's the ideological stance.
unfortunately, ideology doesn't always work in practice (socialism).
And when you think about it, you still have blood on your hands because you pay taxes to fund the programs and pay the bills of the government.
Unless you don't pay taxes.
Which means they will find you.

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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20302, You gotta take that up with george
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 08:53 AM
I dont see how any other reasoning posed extends beyond being ideological. You claim that voting helps things from getting worse and thats a nice idea but its certainly not true in practice- things continue to get worse (crack).

as for clean hands- paying taxes has nothing to do with this- we're talking about the idea of complaining about the government and voting. Carlin disputes the idea that those who dont vote dont have the right to complain. His logic is pretty sound.

He's not taking the ideological stance he's taking a logical one- the ideological stance is concluded in the fact that any american has the right to complain whether he votes or not.
20303, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 09:03 AM
>I dont see how any other
>reasoning posed extends beyond being
>ideological. You claim that voting
>helps things from getting worse
>and thats a nice idea
>but its certainly not true
>in practice- things continue to
>get worse (crack).

There are degrees of bad. bad and reeeeeaaallly bad. Imagine a black community without affirmative action. that's crack + the return to poverty for the few that actually got out.

>as for clean hands- paying taxes
>has nothing to do with
>this- we're talking about the
>idea of complaining about the
>government and voting. Carlin disputes
>the idea that those who
>dont vote dont have the
>right to complain. His logic
>is pretty sound.

The price of not voting is too high to pay, unless u can topple the system. What has Carlin given to the US community?

You either vote, and possibly get some of the things you want(if the candidate you like best wins), and many that you don't
or you don't vote, and are completely under the whim of whoever is in charge of the government.

http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20304, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by guest, Mon Nov-13-00 09:13 AM

>There are degrees of bad. bad
>and reeeeeaaallly bad. Imagine a
>black community without affirmative action.
>that's crack + the return
>to poverty for the few
>that actually got out.

What good is affirmative action when the government can import crack into our community at will? Your argument is for the sake of what might happen and what might not yet you claim to be dealing in the scope of reality.

>The price of not voting is
>too high to pay, unless
>u can topple the system.

how is the price of not voting any different from the price of voting- do voters get different rights. do voters get to live in different parts of the country?

>You either vote, and possibly get
>some of the things you
>want(if the candidate you like
>best wins), and many that
>you don't
>or you don't vote, and are
>completely under the whim of
>whoever is in charge of
>the government.

CMON ZESI- how are you not under the whim of whoever is in charge of the government?

K
20305, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by Zesi, Mon Nov-13-00 12:57 PM
>
>>There are degrees of bad. bad
>>and reeeeeaaallly bad. Imagine a
>>black community without affirmative action.
>>that's crack + the return
>>to poverty for the few
>>that actually got out.
>
>What good is affirmative action when
>the government can import crack
>into our community at will?
>Your argument is for the
>sake of what might happen
>and what might not yet
>you claim to be dealing
>in the scope of reality.

The dismantling of affirmative action is a reality...
california, maybe?

>>The price of not voting is
>>too high to pay, unless
>>u can topple the system.
>
>how is the price of not
>voting any different from the
>price of voting- do voters
>get different rights. do voters
>get to live in different
>parts of the country?

Not voting can mean the difference between electing bad candidate and a worse one. You think black people in Louisiana woulda been happy with David Duke as their governor? I don't think so.

>CMON ZESI- how are you not
>under the whim of whoever
>is in charge of the
>government?

Because voting still carries some weight. Remember the Social Security example? Don't wanna bring it up again. And we're less under the control of the government than under the control of corporate interest.
Which is a bigger machine than government could ever be (unless the government took over the private sector...highly unlikely.)

So Koala, why don't you move?
Planning a revolution?

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http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20306, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by guest, Tue Nov-14-00 03:33 AM

>The dismantling of affirmative action is
>a reality...
>california, maybe?

see what i mean.

>>how is the price of not
>>voting any different from the
>>price of voting- do voters
>>get different rights. do voters
>>get to live in different
>>parts of the country?
>
>Not voting can mean the difference
>between electing bad candidate and
>a worse one. You think
>black people in Louisiana woulda
>been happy with David Duke
>as their governor? I don't
>think so.

you're avoiding the question- how does the price differ for the non voter- how is there situation any different from the person who voted? If David Duke had been elected would the fact that they didnt vote for him save them any trouble?

>>CMON ZESI- how are you not
>>under the whim of whoever
>>is in charge of the
>>government?
>
>Because voting still carries some weight.
>Remember the Social Security example?
>Don't wanna bring it up
>again. And we're less under
>the control of the government
>than under the control of
>corporate interest.
>Which is a bigger machine than
>government could ever be (unless
>the government took over the
>private sector...highly unlikely.)

still not answering the question- remember the crack import example- the story of freeway rick? who are you not under the whim of the government when most of their activity takes place without your consent or even your knowledge?

>So Koala, why don't you move?

find me a place that hasnt been threatened or ruined by this system and Ill think about it

>Planning a revolution?

what Im telling you is that many plans are already in effect- I dont need to plan one I just need to join one. This extends to all people.

K
20307, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by Zesi, Tue Nov-14-00 05:46 AM
>
>>The dismantling of affirmative action is
>>a reality...
>>california, maybe?
>
>see what i mean.

People voted on that, remember?

>>>how is the price of not
>>>voting any different from the
>>>price of voting- do voters
>>>get different rights. do voters
>>>get to live in different
>>>parts of the country?
>>
>>Not voting can mean the difference
>>between electing bad candidate and
>>a worse one. You think
>>black people in Louisiana woulda
>>been happy with David Duke
>>as their governor? I don't
>>think so.
>
>you're avoiding the question- how does
>the price differ for the
>non voter- how is there
>situation any different from the
>person who voted? If David
>Duke had been elected would
>the fact that they didnt
>vote for him save them
>any trouble?

I did answer the question. You could have a close election (and I remember david duke getting a lot of votes), and if u dont come out, the worse candidate wins.
If they had voted against him, maybe they wouldn't have a KKK leader kickin their behind. That's the thing.

>>>CMON ZESI- how are you not
>>>under the whim of whoever
>>>is in charge of the
>>>government?
>>
>>Because voting still carries some weight.
>>Remember the Social Security example?
>>Don't wanna bring it up
>>again. And we're less under
>>the control of the government
>>than under the control of
>>corporate interest.
>>Which is a bigger machine than
>>government could ever be (unless
>>the government took over the
>>private sector...highly unlikely.)
>
>still not answering the question- remember
>the crack import example- the
>story of freeway rick? who
>are you not under the
>whim of the government when
>most of their activity takes
>place without your consent or
>even your knowledge?

I'm not totally under its whim. They don't make me go places, see people, love people, do things, believe things, make sure I only have so many children, write things they want me to write...etc.
Most of their activity, Koala, not all.


>>So Koala, why don't you move?
>
>find me a place that hasnt
>been threatened or ruined by
>this system and Ill think
>about it

Not a one. But some of them have better systems.
You'd just have to get through immigration.

>>Planning a revolution?
>
>what Im telling you is that
>many plans are already in
>effect- I dont need to
>plan one I just need
>to join one. This extends
>to all people.

Revolution is a much harder concept than it was years ago.
Multinational corporations have their finger in every government they're in (and often they're in the US). I'm a pessimist, and don't see how revolution would work unless you had a nuclear weapon pointed to Capitol Hill (which means you'd radiate the people of Chocolate City). Revolution still could work.

I'm not waiting for a revolution.
It's been what...35 years since the BPP started...70 (or is it 80?) years since Garvey...haven't seen anything appear on the horizon with that type of mobilization.



http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20308, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by guest, Tue Nov-14-00 05:55 AM

>I did answer the question. You
>could have a close election
>(and I remember david duke
>getting a lot of votes),
>and if u dont come
>out, the worse candidate wins.
>
>If they had voted against him,
>maybe they wouldn't have a
>KKK leader kickin their behind.
>That's the thing.

The issue that was raised is the heavy price of not voting. The point is whether you vote or not you're still in the same boat. In the situation you suggest I may have some sense of satisfaction when David Duke doesnt get elected but i still live in a community where a lot of people voted for him. Whats the difference if I do vote and david Duke still wins?

>I'm not totally under its whim.
>They don't make me go
>places, see people, love people,
>do things, believe things, make
>sure I only have so
>many children, write things they
>want me to write...etc.
>Most of their activity, Koala, not
>all.

so then how is a non voter under its whim any moreso than you- they arent compelled to do the things you suggested?

>>>So Koala, why don't you move?
>>
>>find me a place that hasnt
>>been threatened or ruined by
>>this system and Ill think
>>about it
>
>Not a one.

thank you

>>>Planning a revolution?
>>
>>what Im telling you is that
>>many plans are already in
>>effect- I dont need to
>>plan one I just need
>>to join one. This extends
>>to all people.
>
>Revolution is a much harder concept
>than it was years ago.

Bullshit- revolution has NEVER been an easy premise.

>Multinational corporations have their finger in
>every government they're in (and
>often they're in the US).
>I'm a pessimist, and don't
>see how revolution would work
>unless you had a nuclear
>weapon pointed to Capitol Hill
>(which means you'd radiate the
>people of Chocolate City). Revolution
>still could work.
>
>I'm not waiting for a revolution.

umm zesi- thats EXACTLY what you're doing.

20309, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by Zesi, Tue Nov-14-00 07:24 AM
>
>>I did answer the question. You
>>could have a close election
>>(and I remember david duke
>>getting a lot of votes),
>>and if u dont come
>>out, the worse candidate wins.
>>
>>If they had voted against him,
>>maybe they wouldn't have a
>>KKK leader kickin their behind.
>>That's the thing.
>
>The issue that was raised is
>the heavy price of not
>voting. The point is whether
>you vote or not you're
>still in the same boat.
>In the situation you suggest
>I may have some sense
>of satisfaction when David Duke
>doesnt get elected but i
>still live in a community
>where a lot of people
>voted for him. Whats the
>difference if I do vote
>and david Duke still wins?

If you do vote, and he still wins. At least you tried to get him out.

>>I'm not totally under its whim.
>>They don't make me go
>>places, see people, love people,
>>do things, believe things, make
>>sure I only have so
>>many children, write things they
>>want me to write...etc.
>>Most of their activity, Koala, not
>>all.
>
>so then how is a non
>voter under its whim any
>moreso than you- they arent
>compelled to do the things
>you suggested?

If they take away some right that you have, that someone else may not have done if you had voted.

>>>>So Koala, why don't you move?
>>>
>>>find me a place that hasnt
>>>been threatened or ruined by
>>>this system and Ill think
>>>about it
>>
>>Not a one.

>thank you

But there are less corrupt places.
You could move there.

>>>>Planning a revolution?
>>>
>>>what Im telling you is that
>>>many plans are already in
>>>effect- I dont need to
>>>plan one I just need
>>>to join one. This extends
>>>to all people.
>>
>>Revolution is a much harder concept
>>than it was years ago.
>
>Bullshit- revolution has NEVER been an
>easy premise.

Just because it's never been easy doesn't mean it's not harder now.

>>Multinational corporations have their finger in
>>every government they're in (and
>>often they're in the US).
>>I'm a pessimist, and don't
>>see how revolution would work
>>unless you had a nuclear
>>weapon pointed to Capitol Hill
>>(which means you'd radiate the
>>people of Chocolate City). Revolution
>>still could work.
>>
>>I'm not waiting for a revolution.
>
>umm zesi- thats EXACTLY what you're
>doing.

You're right about that. I'm waiting for some kind of revolution, but I don't think armed revolution is so feasible anymore. But I'm not content with planning to have a revolution when people continue to suffer...I'd rather help them concretely...NOW...without having to have them wait on something that just may not work. Maybe I don't know about many revolutionary movements, but what are they doing for the people now?

http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20310, and another thing
Posted by Zesi, Tue Nov-14-00 08:15 AM
I don't think we're really that different, Koala.
So maybe, instead of fussin about things, we could be productive and do something...even together (heaven forbid).
But I'm still voting
:).


http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

All human beings are ugly.

20311, Im not fussing
Posted by guest, Tue Nov-14-00 09:48 AM
this is what i call a discussion

apparently you think Im fussing cuz you have yet to relinquish the ideas you started out with and you insist that my intention is to strip you of those determinations.

I said from the very start that voting can be effective in certain capacities my whole point was for us to understand however that there are ideologies and movements that prescribe alternatives to voting, solutions to community concerns,and good reasons to not participate.

You've spent alot of time championing the cause of voting but my intention wasnt to dispute that. My point was that if you have lost faith in the system (particularly voting) or never had such faith then there are a variety of political movements and even rights that you can participate in and assist in our struggle. You disregarded those movements not necessarily cuz you dont agree with them but because you obviously dont know anything about them- thats fine - I knew that from the start - my point was if thats the case then be courteous to people and a forum that might see those things explained.

Certainly we can work together- we already are; but this cant just mean you hoping that ill join you in an election booth one day- cuz i probably wont. First it means understanding each other's determination and maybe even studying the ideas of their determination. I know about voting and its potential- perhaps you should look into the movements Ive suggested.

Please do that before you tell somebody else that the movement hasnt done anything for your people- especially if from that you conclude that voting has.

K
20312, Dont get me wrong
Posted by guest, Tue Nov-14-00 09:59 AM
Im not mad at you- I dont intend for you to be mad at me. Im not arguing with you Im explaining things as I see them; you admit that you havent even looked in certain directions yet you insist that Im not seeing things correctly.

Alot of you peeps need to stop trying to fight me and let go of the idea that Im trying to fight you.

we CAN have discussions- even heated ones - even insulting ones - it doesnt mean that we're diminishing the potential of our struggle.

This place is the discourse of activism; it is to challenge and to be challenged.


We WILL have differences of opinion here- but you dont have to take it personally.

K
20313, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by guest, Tue Nov-14-00 09:34 AM

>If you do vote, and he
>still wins. At least you
>tried to get him out.

Youve avoided the question yet again- how is the resulting situation any different between the voter and the none voter?

>If they take away some right
>that you have, that someone
>else may not have done
>if you had voted.

if they take away rights- that situation applies to both the voter and the non voter- again where is the difference? You are no less under the whim of the government than a non voter.

>>thank you
>
>But there are less corrupt places.
>
>You could move there.

corruption isnt my concern- its threat and ruin by colonialist and imperialist nations- the first and foremost of which is this one. Sure I could move there but if Im to live in fear of the US trampling my peoples development I might as well live here.

Show me a nation (one that hasnt already been desolated by imperialism preferrably) where this nation has no influence and Ill show you a guerilla faction that is being funded covertly by the US government to gain that influence.

>Just because it's never been easy
>doesn't mean it's not harder
>now.

The fact is its always been hard- considering the idea of how much harder it is now is a waste of time. Surely you dont think that "because its harder" is a good excuse to abandon the struggle .

>>>I'm not waiting for a revolution.
>>
>>umm zesi- thats EXACTLY what you're
>>doing.
>
>You're right about that. I'm waiting
>for some kind of revolution,
>but I don't think armed
>revolution is so feasible anymore.
>But I'm not content with
>planning to have a revolution
>when people continue to suffer...I'd
>rather help them concretely...NOW...without having
>to have them wait on
>something that just may not
>work. Maybe I don't know
>about many revolutionary movements, but
>what are they doing for
>the people now?

The problem is our people are determined to wait for a revolution and thats not how revolutions work. YOU MUST PARTICIPATE. If you dont at least study the revolutionary movements your idea that they arent doing anything for the people is useless- you admittedly wouldnt have a clue.

You claim for concrete results- name one.

I suggest you study the plans for revolution before you are so willing to dismiss them- quite obviously you dont know the first thing yet you are determined that they arent in our best interests and not effective. thats just not true.


20314, RE: You gotta take that up with george
Posted by guest, Tue Nov-14-00 09:34 AM

>If you do vote, and he
>still wins. At least you
>tried to get him out.

Youve avoided the question yet again- how is the resulting situation any different between the voter and the none voter?

>If they take away some right
>that you have, that someone
>else may not have done
>if you had voted.

if they take away rights- that situation applies to both the voter and the non voter- again where is the difference? You are no less under the whim of the government than a non voter.

>>thank you
>
>But there are less corrupt places.
>
>You could move there.

corruption isnt my concern- its threat and ruin by colonialist and imperialist nations- the first and foremost of which is this one. Sure I could move there but if Im to live in fear of the US trampling my peoples development I might as well live here.

Show me a nation (one that hasnt already been desolated by imperialism preferrably) where this nation has no influence and Ill show you a guerilla faction that is being funded covertly by the US government to gain that influence.

>Just because it's never been easy
>doesn't mean it's not harder
>now.

The fact is its always been hard- considering the idea of how much harder it is now is a waste of time. Surely you dont think that "because its harder" is a good excuse to abandon the struggle .

>>>I'm not waiting for a revolution.
>>
>>umm zesi- thats EXACTLY what you're
>>doing.
>
>You're right about that. I'm waiting
>for some kind of revolution,
>but I don't think armed
>revolution is so feasible anymore.
>But I'm not content with
>planning to have a revolution
>when people continue to suffer...I'd
>rather help them concretely...NOW...without having
>to have them wait on
>something that just may not
>work. Maybe I don't know
>about many revolutionary movements, but
>what are they doing for
>the people now?

The problem is our people are determined to wait for a revolution and thats not how revolutions work. YOU MUST PARTICIPATE. If you dont at least study the revolutionary movements your idea that they arent doing anything for the people is useless- you admittedly wouldnt have a clue.

You claim for concrete results- name one.

I suggest you study the plans for revolution before you are so willing to dismiss them- quite obviously you dont know the first thing yet you are determined that they arent in our best interests and not effective. thats just not true.