being that latinos are allegedly going to be the largest "minority" group in the u.s. in (pick a year here), i'm curious: do blacks and latinos get along in your area?

let me explain where i'm coming from. i grew up on long island, and where i lived there weren't a whole lot of latinos. in the schools that i attended, people of color were definitely a "minority". i always felt that my black peers were friendlier towards me than my white peers (because "we're all minorities"). i even seriously considered going to howard, although eventually finances kept me in new york.

in college, it wasn't unusual to see latinos in black fraternities/sororities, and vice versa. i was in a latino activist organization, and whenever we had events at least 40-50% of the people in attendance were black non-latinos. black-latino friendships and relationships were commonplace. however, i was surprised to learn from friends who weren't from new york that the harmonious relations between blacks and latinos was strictly "a new york thing". evidently, in other areas of the country, both groups see each other as a threat.

is this true where you live? if latinos and blacks don't get along where you live, what would be the best way to remedy that? perhaps this may sound hopelessly naive, but i think that we really need each other.

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>being that latinos are allegedly going
>to be the largest "minority"
>group in the u.s. in
>(pick a year here), i'm
>curious: do blacks and latinos
>get along in your area?

um. there's not really a big cohesiveness that i see.

>let me explain where i'm coming
>from. i grew up on
>long island, and where i
>lived there weren't a whole
>lot of latinos. in the
>schools that i attended, people
>of color were definitely a
>"minority". i always felt that
>my black peers were friendlier
>towards me than my white
>peers (because "we're all minorities").
>i even seriously considered going
>to howard, although eventually finances
>kept me in new york.
>
>
>in college, it wasn't unusual to
>see latinos in black fraternities/sororities,
>and vice versa. i was
>in a latino activist organization,
>and whenever we had events
>at least 40-50% of the
>people in attendance were black
>non-latinos. black-latino friendships and relationships
>were commonplace. however, i was
>surprised to learn from friends
>who weren't from new york
>that the harmonious relations between
>blacks and latinos was strictly
>"a new york thing". evidently,
>in other areas of the
>country, both groups see each
>other as a threat.

well, you've got to consider that opressed groups fight for the power that non oppressed groups give them. and there's conflict between them. So you can see how there would be conflict among the two largest ethnic minority groups. and also, there are different ethnic groups under the umbrella latino..and different groups may be treated differently.

>is this true where you live?
>if latinos and blacks don't
>get along where you live,
>what would be the best
>way to remedy that? perhaps
>this may sound hopelessly naive,
>but i think that we
>really need each other.

yeah. i'm in my pessimist mode right now, but I think you're right. We could use each other.

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"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

Well in detroit & chicago I never noticed tension , but there were definitely differences.

never analyzed those two areas because they were harmonious enough to co-exist, although I do know that in detroit a lot of the latin gangs have blacks in them...and vice versa I think.

but I lived in Dallas and that shit was the opposite...at least in the areas I was in. I am often mistaken as latina, and always was in Dallas. So when I moved there I was jolted out of my reality. because in detroit I had friends of all races & lived & interacted with both freely. First night I moved to Dallas I went into a liquor store in a black neighborhood and it was evident that I wasn't supposed to be there from the looks I got and overhearing people talking. and since that was the issue, I stayed with the mexicans because those of "european" decent were often so damned condescending, asking me if I ever worked in the fields as a picker & shit. & staying with the mexicans i heard a lot of rascist comments directed towards blacks.

I just don't understand that...twas a new thing, definitely

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okay... i might be totally off with this one, but i always felt that the reason that it seems black/latino relations were better, say, on the east coast than in texas or LA was because (as far as i can see) on the east coast we have mostly caribbean-type latins (puerto ricans, dominicans, etc) who are of african ancestry and shit, a whole lot of them are "negroid" (or have morenos in their family). in texas and california, you have more mexicans. now as far as i know (and i don't know much) mexicans do not have african blood. chicanos are a completely different kind of latino from a boriqua, no?

There are black Mexicans even today. And probably many more of mixed blood. Africans were brought to Mexico as slaves, also.
I don't think that is something that people like to talk about.
There was (is?) an exhibit in Atlanta on Afro-mexicans in the state of Oaxaca.

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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

i know there's black mexicans... there are persons with black blood of all races. but i'm not talking taking about a few mixed folks... i mean, african blood is not a major "ingredient" of la raza, right? i mean, i understand puerto ricans to be a mix of spanish, african and taino indian, but mexicans are largely indian and spanish, right?

i didn't know that there was any major african slavery in mexico, though. that's news to me. but hey, you learn something everyday! i'll look into that more!

well...I'm no expert, but you can do searches on afro-mexicans on yahoo! and find information.

>i know there's black mexicans... there
>are persons with black blood
>of all races. but i'm
>not talking taking about a
>few mixed folks... i mean,
>african blood is not a
>major "ingredient" of la raza,
>right? i mean, i understand
>puerto ricans to be a
>mix of spanish, african and
>taino indian, but mexicans are
>largely indian and spanish, right?
>i didn't know that there was
>any major african slavery in
>mexico, though. that's news to
>me. but hey, you learn
>something everyday! i'll look into
>that more!

yeah:). it seems like interesting stuff.

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"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

i did a research paper in college on this very subject. there's a lot of good information at this website:

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/vaughnindex.html

what's interesting is that when i showed this information to a couple of mexican friends of mine, they *still* didn't believe that black mexicans existed. their reactions were "well, they're just in veracruz" or "there are no black people in *my* family". i think some mexicans are in a state of denial about their african ancestry.

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*grins*

Well, think about it! As far as the "races" go... Blacks are at the bottom!

You shouldn't be so surprised by their reactions...

to generalize, you are right. there are always exceptions, but a lot of mexicans can trace the majority of their ancestry to indigenous peoples/native americans & the spanish.

but they are still people of color & they still deal with the same exact shit black people do...perhaps w/ a different face, but the same nonetheless.

which is what baffles me about the animosity they often have for one another.


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Toni Morrison once said that, "The first word immigrants learn when they come to America is nigger". I take that to mean any new American coming from another country learns quickly that there is somebody else lower on the totem pole than they are, by America's own standards.

I have worked and lived in ethnically diverse communities (Brooklyn, East Harlem, Lower East Side (NYC), Southside Chicago) for several years now and I have experienced Latino prejudice and discrimination against African Americans. I have also witnessed Black and Latino people living and working together. Black people have had their feet in American soil since we arrived on the slave ships and even before that. Regardless, some Latino people believe they are better than these people.

I think many people bring their prejudices with them. There are some awfully dark people in Spanish speaking countries, including Mexico, Brazil, Belize, Puerto Rico, Cuba. African
Latinos are often discriminated against and oppressed in these countries. Some "white" Latinos and "Indian" people bring their experiences from a racially divided, racist system with them and project their beliefs onto American Black people.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

Some Mexicans don't like blacks, and some Blacks don't like Mexicans.

Blacks on mexicans
- I always think they are talking about me when they speak spanish (I don't know how many times I've heard black folk say that).
- they steal

Mexicans on blacks
- they're dangerous hoodlums
- they steal
- they're after our women (my ex only went for brothers, and her female family members of the same age were split, only black folks or only spanish speakers. She said she gotta a lotta flack from mexican brothers trying to push up.)

Cubanos, Boricuas, and other folks of euro/afro/indian/indigenous descent that happen to speak Spanish aren't as plentiful here in Texas. When I was at home in brooklyn, Puerto Rican folks were called Spanish. And of course spanish included Cubanos too. My great grandmother who was white cuban, and she didn't like black people, and most of the "white" side of my family didn't either. I don't think I understand how my grandmother came into being, considering my grandfather was Jamaican. But Island people are funny.

But colorism is also something within Mexican culture that I wasn't up on. Just like black folks have light vs dark, so do some of the Mexican folks I know. Sometimes you are not brown enough. And lord help you if you were Mexican and didn't speak spanish.

The South is messed up though. I think a lot of the minorities take on the mindset of some members of the majority here. It is very common to see black folks hate on black folks, and brown on brown, particularly in a commercial setting.

peace
k. orr

Hi, I'm new around here, but I thought I'd start by replying to something that I know a little about. I'm a Chicana living in LA and when I saw the topic for the thread I wanted to see what it was all about.

First off, there were African slaves in Mexico. If you traveled to Veracruz in Eastern Mexico (by the gulf) you'd notice that there are some darker skinned people there. There have also been lots of influences in things like music. In the colonial caste system Africans were at the bottom of the social ladder. Of course, the Spanish "peninsulares" were at the top. The natives were also at the bottom. Basically, the darker your skin, the lower you were in society. Its even that way today in other Latin American countries too, just check out soap operas (or telenovelas) on Spanish language television. The lead roles are usually played by European-looking men and women. Sometimes Africans and Indians are villfied too. Racism and classism play a big role in Latin American society.

I forgot who mentioned something about having to speak Spanish to be accepted. That's true, but I don't know about being "brown enough." Most of the time for women light skin is better than dark skin. IMHO light skin is still valued more than darker skin. Its easy to see when people gush over fair-skinned babies with light hair, and they ignore the "prieto" (darker one).

In terms of interaction between both groups, I don't know much. I'm in college and I work with a Chicana/o student group. We often work with the African Student Union on all sorts of issue. The constant propositions are often targeted at youth of color so we collaborate on things like bringing back affirmative action and opposing certain state initiatives (props 21, 209...). I don't know why we fight over the crumbs.

Welcomes you with open arms! Very interesting comments you've made, and makes a lot of since!

If I needed you to be cooool with my strength, could you do it?-Jill Scott

>Welcomes you with open arms!
>Very interesting comments you've made,
>and makes a lot of
>since (sp) sense!
>
>If I needed you to be
>cooool with my strength, could
>you do it?-Jill Scott


If I needed you to be cooool with my strength, could you do it?-Jill Scott

I grew up around hispanic people, so I pretty much have a good relationship with them. My grandmother is hispanic, along with my uncle's wife. When I went to high school in North Jersey, I didn't notice any tension between them. I almost went out with a Puerto Rican girl in high school (fucked that up, but that's another story), but when I met her moms, I noticed that she had black people all around her and loved it. I guess it depends on where you go.

But there are some hispanic people that don't like black people. My boy (half black, half filipino) went to a predominately hispanic college, and since they didn't think he was black, a lot of hispanic people told him how they didn't like black people...needless to say, he didn't roll with them after that. When I went to Texas, I noticed that what peeps say about the black-mexican relationship is pretty much true, there's a lot of tension there.

Funny thing is, I honestly don't know why. I know of a few hispanic people that don't like black people because of a bad experience with one black person, and they generalize (sad but true), but for the most part, I don't see why there is any tension.

I see more tension between Trinidadians and Jamaicans than Blacks and Hispanics. The Caribbean is where the tension is

Peace
Rex

Hotep

I am Latino. I am Black. I am African. No I am not mixed but I am all of these things based on the categorization of European languages. Latino refers to anyone from "Latin America." My family is from Panama and are all dark as night. This term is used to loosely refer to who would be considered white Latinos in LAtin America. I prefer not to use the term along with Hispanic because it throws eveyone from Latin America under one blanket term. Mexican/Puerto Rican/Cuban/Panamanian, etc. cultures are all very diverse among themselves alone. Then the skin color issue within each country is VERY real. 70% of Cuban is Black but the majority of Cubans in America are "white." Cuba is generally portrayed as one big badland that everyone wants to leave. BUt why do so many Africans from the entire Diaspora (especially America) gravitate towards it? Why don't Balck Cubans try to leave? Why does every Black Cuban I know LIKE Cuba and CASTRO? These are questions that need to be asked when considering the issues of Black/White LAtinos. This also needs to be understood when considering African-American/White Latinos relations in America.

I grew up in Dallas in a lower-income Black/Mexican community. My first best friend was Mexican but as we grew older we began to associate more with our own "ethnic" groups. There is definitely a division between the these groups in Dallas because of the contrasting differences between culture. Among Mexicans, the "White" ones (in color but also America/Europeanized mind) eventually try to identify with the white mainstream culture. They have historically done so especially considering the presence of the dark Black presence. Historically many Mexicans were classed as white. However the newer generation of Mexicans are darker and considered "inferior." Especially considering that many of them have more indigenous "Indian" features and don't speak English, they are placed at the bottom of the totem pole. Their initial view of Blacks based on mainstream-based stereotypes due to a lack of communication. Then they realize (under the white supremacist regime of America) that they have better chances of assimilating than the Black because they can identify with the white.

Gross negroes who fall prey to the white supremacist notion that they are "superior" to Mexicans because they are more familiar with European/white Mainstream culture. "LEarn some damn English!" is a common epithet that I hear reverberated by lost negroes. Then mentality then conceives falso notions that becomes stereotypes of those "damn wetbacks."

So to understand the relationships between American Blacks and Latinos one must look at the "Latino" culture itself first and then the socio-historical situations of their presence in the given part of America and how they relate to American whites and Blacks. MExican culture is very different from Panamanian and Cuban culture. The main connection between Latinos is Spanish language and culture. Only white supremacy benefits by viewing all as the same and then uplifting the "normative" image of white LAtinos.

Peace
Solarus

interesting points. i myself have always been uncomfortable with the term "hispanic" and even "latino" to an extent. like this whole so-called "latin explosion" in entertainment that seems to cover everyone from jennifer lopez to enrique iglesias (who is from SPAIN, for fuck's sake... that's a whole different culture) to even a brazilian cat like caetano veloso. ultimately, it comes down to "if you speak spanish, you're in." and i don't quite but that.

the cuba thing is interesting, too. i have heard other people voice the same sentiments and i've wondered it myself. but living in america, our perceptions of cuba are so distorted that it's hard to understand. WHY do black cubans like it there and white cubans don't? shed some light!

about the cuba situation...i only know un poco...what i know is this is that the majority of cubans here are conservatives and white...and they were among the wealthy when castro took over the lands as government property...this is why that hate castro and communism..porque batista (i belive this to be his name) kissed their asses...and sold his precious land to americans and american corporations...many owned a couple of homes and held much of the wealth in cuba...the blacks at that time did not have that wealth and did not share in that loss....the ones here from what i hear (all i can go on is hearsay) have their own prejudices against darker skinned cubans....

mucho amor y paz.


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The main
>connection between Latinos is Spanish
>language and culture. Only
>white supremacy benefits by viewing
>all as the same and
>then uplifting the "normative" image
>of white LAtinos.

so are you saying that those of us who are mexican, panamanian, colombian, dominican, etc., *shouldn't* wish to unite? just because i am dominican doesn't mean that i can't relate to my mexican brothers and sisters or my puerto rican brothers and sisters. and it also doesn't mean that i think that there is a "latin look" or type or anything. if we're united we could definitely prove that there is no type as far as skin color is concerned.

but that's just my naive opinion.


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Hotep

Why should Latinos unite in America for some superficial reason other than the fact they speak Spanish? Racial stratification in REAL in Latin America but gross Americans don't know about that. Black Cubans have more in common with Haitians than they do with Dominicans. I was warned that if i went to Dominican republic then I would be viewed as a Haitian before I even opened my mouth! (I am dark-skinned Black man with locks.) I'm not saying that latinos shouldn't unite but one has to be real. Being from a Latin American country is just as superficial as saying that you are from America. If I went to England and I met a White American would i try to unite with him/her? NOO!!! I would be with the Black folks in England because I'm sure we'd have more in common. When my uncles from Panama came to Dallas did they hang with Mexicans. NOOO!!! They befriended others (Black Americans) whom they had more in common with.

As far as the Cuban thing. As in America a definite light vs. dark social stratification exists. Not to say all but many of the lighter-skinned Cubans who come to America are in such of the wealth which is diffiult to accumulate in Cuba (a communist country). So they bring their elitists asses to America. Gloria Estefan and her husband are good examples of white Cubans benefitting from the "American Dream." If Cuba is so bad why is the majority of the island literate (i think 99%)? Why do they send constant aid to African nations battling the neocolonial governments? Why do African American revolutionies seek exile in Cuba? Why did Harlem world give Castro such a big reception? Why is New York the only city that he can go to? This isn't to say that there are no racial problems in Cuba (santeros experiencing discrimination in religious practices). However when America hates you and the elitist art of the population leaves then you deserve some props.

Peace
Solarus

Its common for people to act as if black & "latino" are mutually exclusive when they aren't. Many latinos are black. The difference is the language we speak. Of course culturally there are differences too but thats true for black New Yorkers as opposed to Jamaicans or blacks for New Orleans. Nobody says that these people aren't black. But when it comes to someone from Panama all of a sudden its a different story. There are "black" americans that are lighter & whiter than many latinos. Part of the problem also is the way in which "black" is classified in the US. The one drop rule has lumped together all multi/biracial people of black descent. Whether that's good or bad can be debated but there are certainly difference btwn being a light skinned/passing for white "black" and a darkskinned/couldn't pass for anything but black.

When people think that all Latinos automatically have something in common because of language they are forgetting a few things. I don't know if you know this but the Spanish spoken in Mexico sounds different and is different from what Cubanos and other Latin Americans speak. I'm not saying that we can't understand eachother, but there are certain words and phrases that mean something completely different. Also, we tend to assume that all Latin Americans speak Spanish as their main language. We've forgottent that there millions of indigenous people in Mexico, Central America and South America who retain their native language and customs. So, when you think that simply because we supposedly all speak the same language, you've got to realize that some people don't speak that language and that if we do speak the language, it is quite varied in different countries/regions.

I live in California so I really don't know much about the Cubanos, Dominicanos or Puerto Riquenos; I know there are greater populations on the East Coast. But the West Coast has a lot of people from Mexico and Central America. And even though a Guatemalteco will not like it if you call him Salvadoreno/Mexicano, and so on, we still know that we have much in common. One of the main things Central American and Mexican activist collaborate on is the issue of immigrants rights. It is possible for us to work together in the US especially when we live right next to eachother.

"To be a student and not be a revolutionary is a contradiction"
-- Salvador Allende, 1973

it's true that the majority of the cubans in the u.s. are white and are anti-castro. the revolution was in opposition to them and was to benefit the peasants. from what i saw in cuba, racism isn't institutionalized like it is here so the construct of race is a different. this isn't to say that racism doesn't exist b/c it does but it isn't ingrained in castro's government.

also, there is a distinct difference btwn. spanish speaking persons of african descent and those not of african decent. for instance if u call a mexican - a puertorican that is i declare war.

i got more but i gotta go be productive.........
peace


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I also believe it depends on where you are. I'm from NJ, and my neighborhood was all black and puertorican. The schools that I attended were also the same. It was all love. That's why I was so surprised to come to Miami and see the segregation that exists. From what I have seen, many Blacks and Haitians dislike the Cuban exiles and vice versa. Other people from "up north" that I speak with have also commented on the differences of the black/latino relationship between Miami and other places like NJ/NY.

>then the skin color
>issue within each
>country is VERY real.
>70% of Cuban is black
>but the majority of
>Cubans in America
>are "white"

I experience the skin color issue as well. I've worked in several places where the majority of people have been white cubans. And although there are many black cubans, they're always amazed and taken aback when they find out that I speak spanish. That's when they start asking the "where are you from" and "where is your family from" questions, when a minute ago I was just a black girl. It's almost as if in their eyes white=latino and black =non latino.


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