I've heard in the past few weeks how intergration weakened the black community, especially black buisnesses? This point was first brought to my attention in a movie called Mixing Nia, starring Isiah Washington and Karyon Parsons. And just last week the father of one of my very close friends was saying the same thing.

Intially i was like how could intergration be bad? Didn't it allow blacks access to things that were previously denied to us? What my friends father was telling me was that that maybe true but what happened was that it allowed whites into our communties to make money instead of spending money (at blue/jazz clubs). and took the money that was going to the the black buisnesses, mainly because people started going elsewhere to shop ie sears or wards, the big stores where we weren't allowed to shop.

I can see his point and am abliged to agree with him. You see the same thing happeing now, blacks more willing to spend they're money elsewhere than in they're communities. Is this an irreversible affect? I've always wondered how it is so easy for these middle eastern people to open up corner stores, and asians with beauty supply and discount clothing stores.

With this said.... the question still stands is intergration good or bad? At this point i'm not sure. Please discuss.

peace and love

arkitek

~you couldn't be the shit if you were a turd in me~ pos
http://www.geocities.com/arkitek_1999

But what we've had is desegregation.

>I've heard in the past few
>weeks how intergration weakened the
>black community, especially black buisnesses?

Basically, the white man's ice is colder. Black folks don't come out and support our own unless we are legally forced to.

There are very few things that American Black people have to go to American black businesses for.

- soul food - and most black folks I know don't go anywhere where they can make the food themselves

- church - not really a business per se...

- hair care - I can count the # of time I've had my hair cut outside of a black barbershop.

- Black art/books - Nkiru books, et cetera.

>Didn't it
>allow blacks access to things
>that were previously denied to
>us?

Education. Since state colleges are better funded then HBCU's, this was a major advance. Access to higher ed is important. But from k-12 is where we have run into problems. Many black neighborhoods don't have the tax base to really fund their school districts. Furthermore there is a huge disconnect between educators and students in many of our neighborhoods. We need more African American teachers, and better support from our communities for those teachers.

What my friends father
>was telling me was that
>that maybe true but what
>happened was that it allowed
>whites into our communties to
>make money instead of spending
>money (at blue/jazz clubs). and
>took the money that was
>going to the the black
>buisnesses, mainly because people started
>going elsewhere to shop ie
>sears or wards, the big
>stores where we weren't allowed
>to shop.

Shopping is one thing, but let me break down my monthly expenses.

35% goes to rent
5% to utilities
11% to groceries
8% to auto
10% to school loans/credit
2% to laundry/dry cleaning

72% of my total income is spent by the time I get my check. And 100% of that is going to white folks in one way or another. The grocery stores and gas stations in black neighborhoods are not owned by the residents.

My disposable income does trickle down to some black folks, via wax purchases, movies, concerts. But My economic life is pretty much dominated by white folks. And it's not a cycle I can easily break. If it were as easy as just moving changing phone companies all of us would be doing it.

>You see the
>same thing happeing now, blacks
>more willing to spend they're
>money elsewhere than in they're
>communities. Is this an
>irreversible affect?

I would say yes. Black folks, unlike their Afrikan or Caribbean counterparts, don't have a real imperative to stick together. Hell, the cultural effects seems to fall off for the Afrikan's and Caribbeans after 2 or 3 generations. Eric Liu commented on how 3rd and 4th generation Asians, often don't conform to the geek stereotype and are academically on par with their white counterparts.

I've always wondered
>how it is so easy
>for these middle eastern people
>to open up corner stores,
>and asians with beauty supply
>and discount clothing stores.

It's a couple of things. You see the same thing with Mexican nationals, but not so much with Mexican Americans. I think it's called the immigrant effect.

But the usual strategy is that you stay with a better established family, learn their family business, and then open your shop in another part of town. Or you open a business that specifically caters to your community.

This is my one of my favorite topics, and I'm always looking for data on it.

>With this said.... the question still
>stands is intergration good or
>bad? At this point
>i'm not sure. Please discuss.

It can be, provided that we realize what kind of struggles are ahead.

peace
k. orr

in·te·grate (nt-grt)
v. inte·grat·ed, inte·grat·ing, inte·grates.
v. tr.

To make into a whole by bringing all parts together; unify.

To join with something else; unite.
To make part of a larger unit: integrated the new procedures into the work routine.
To open to people of all races or ethnic groups without restriction; desegregate.

Looking at the working definition for this word, i'd say that in the context you were giving an example of, it isn't even possible. (Yeah, yeah, yeah integration "could" be a good thing outside of the western context, but are we talking about that? no! I say this cuz i know someone is gonna come with some irrelevant post saying just that, when reading your example should be enough to see you're talking about a specific realm of integration, i.e in the U.S., I give it three posts before it gets done.) ...anyways, The words in the definition which I could use to justify this point are; whole, all parts, together, unify, join, unite, & without restriction, all of which are an antithesis of the Western stage from which your example (i.e. integration between blacks/whites in the United States) comes from.

I won't waste time dealing with the abstract usage of the word, because in other arenas, of course the word "integration" is a valid concept. But in the example above, not possible. Capitalism is the fundamental core of this society, economic balance and class equality therefore can never happen. NEVER HAPPEN, NEVER HAPPEN with this system. Likewise integration can NEVER, NEVER, NEVER happen within the western core over which the politics of this society are built. <To open to people of all races or ethnic groups without restriction> please!?

So what was the whole integration/desegregation thing all about in the 60's ? drumroll please...The Rhetorical Ethic, the means by which these Westernh/Euro/Americans "talk" yet fail to "do". See the Rhetorical Ethic Post, kind of long but worth the read. The whole say one thing and do another is just pathetic. But what are ya gonna do, huh? Because there wasn't a real desire for integration or actual manifestation of it, the whole concept within the time period was not a reality. It was a sham. One in which the negative repercussions are still felt today. When a dollar could circulate 16 times in the black communities in the 60's before the whole "integration" then just leap into the majority people's businesses in one turn, a problem started back then which we can still see today. The mentality of a group which invests in self might be called self sufficient to a certain extent, but introduce the "permission" to integrate with the majority peoples and we see the beginnings of a dependent mentality which few "can" or "want" to get away from here in 2000.

So I say, integration on a psychological level was and is a "bad" thing. Its long term effects more devasting than many acknowledge. Now people feel they "have" to do stuff from within the integrated system and any proposal to do otherwise is immediately seen as crazy. Tell somebody successes of the pan-african movement of the African Hebrew Isrealites and they'll think you made it up. Tell the same people they don't have to eat the diet of the typical american and that a human being can live without animal consumption and they'll call you a liar. The ramblings of a mentally dominated people. (shaking head) The ramifications of dealing/integrating with an inferior people are REAL. Just like dealing with anything inferior to self whether it be a lower level of thinking or participating in something one knows one shouldn't be dealing with. If the foundation is not strong/aware enough of the possibilities of assimilation into the "lower" that's when problems then arise.

(((((PEACE)))))

"if i dropped African thought, you'd probably lie and say it's greek philosophy" -TalibKweli

About fuckin time some of our people come with answers like this! Our people are so busy tryin not to offend white folks and so busy tryin not to look "racist" it prevents them from analyzing the European honestly and accurately! Intregration was and is used to control you because the best way to keep someone enslaved is make them think they are free so they don't feel the need to rebel. Nothing these Europeans do is for your benefit it is always to maintain white supremacy. We MUST understand this as Black people! But, we don't even consider shit like this because we think its so far fetched and evil that they could not possibly think of doing something like that. We think this because we still think that white folk think like us and thats how we got tricked into "slavery" cuz we could not fathom such evil cuz that was not OUR nature. I mean is this concept that the European essentially don't give a fuck about us so hard to believe? I mean they considered us 3/5 ths of a human being only about 300 years ago! Ohhh But, I hear ya'll now... I know some real cool white folk. We can't comprehend that these people can live in two worlds in order to stay close to their enemy. You have to step out of "reality" in order to get the full view of things sometime. You don't have to believe me but at least think about the possiblity otherwise we gonna keep thinking in a circle and wondering why they treat us like they do.

AMEN

>Intregration was and is used
>to control you because the
>best way to keep someone
>enslaved is make them think
>they are free so they
>don't feel the need to
>rebel. Nothing these Europeans do
>is for your benefit it
>is always to maintain white
>supremacy.

Most white people in a Capitalist society, especially the ones that control the country like G.W. Bush and countless BILLIONAIRES on Wall Street are not out to maintain white supremacy they are out to maintain their money.
Money is a lot more of a motivating factor in our society than race is. Much of the time race comes into it when money is at stake. Very rich people don't think about race because it really doesn't affect their money. Lower class white people think more about race because it sometimes has a direct impact on their money. This is why "Divide and Conquer" works.

You are absolutly right about these elite peoples' money is more important but, these people also understand that their white race will not last if they do not stay in power based on the fact that they are geneticly inferior to all the other races on the earth. So, this is why they manipulate nature to their favor.

AMEN

>You are absolutly right about these
>elite peoples' money is
>more important but, these people
>also understand that their white
>race will not last if
>they do not stay in
>power based on the fact
>that they are geneticly inferior
>to all the other races
>on the earth.

Which genetic attributes define race? How are races geneticly different from other races? Race is a social construct. What scientific research proves that any "race" is inferior to another?

>So, this
>is why they manipulate nature
>to their favor.

They manipulate society, no one can manipulate nature.

>>... are geneticly inferior
>>to all the other races
>>on the earth.
>
>...What scientific research proves that
>any "race" is inferior to
>another?

No, Omari is right! In fact, as I type this, I'm having trouble just trying not to breathe through my mouth!


--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
-----
http://www.io.com/~jcastle

>Most white people in a Capitalist
>society, especially the ones that
>control the country like G.W.
>Bush and countless BILLIONAIRES on
>Wall Street are not out
>to maintain white supremacy they
>are out to maintain their
>money.

Don't believe that lie! Rich white folks think about race and make decisions based on race all of the time. From the founding of this country until now every law passed had something to do with race. For example, the property laws did not say only wealthy men could own property and vote, it said only wealthy WHITE men could own property and vote.

>Money is a lot more of
>a motivating factor in our
>society than race is.

I don't know one black person other than Clarence and Condoleeza who believe that one.

>Much of the time race
>comes into it when money
>is at stake. Very
>rich people don't think about
>race because it really doesn't
>affect their money.

The rich think about race all of the time. When a rich person decides to place a toxic chemical plant some place he first considers whose children will have to die. If the children are white, even white trash, he reconsiders because to most Americans a white life is worth more than a black life.

>
>The rich think about race all
>of the time. When a
>rich person decides to place
>a toxic chemical plant some
>place he first considers whose
>children will have to die.

No, he first thinks of where it would be cheapest and easiest (least resistance) for him to build that plant. And if that area does not have enough influence (Money,voices) they get away with it. This happened recently in Philadelphia, city council wanted to build the new stadium in China Town. The strong protests and influence of the people of that community made that area no longer an option.

Another example is in South Jersey. The county was looking for a new place to build a some type of small arena for shows and primarily a minor league hockey team. One place they considered was Lawnside, a primarily Black working/middle class community. When the citizens of the town found out that the county wanted to put up an arena that, chances are, they won't even use, they flipped. The citizens got the arena out of the town because of their power and influence.

I am not saying race does not come into every single decision in the end, but I just believe the largest motivating factor is, more times than not, money. C.R.E.A.M., I don't know about you.

>If the children are white,
>even white trash, he reconsiders
>because to most Americans a
>white life is worth more
>than a black life.
>
>

No argument.

Disclaimer: Please don't think I am trying to justify any actions in the past or anything that still happens every day regarding race. I am just trying to show that class has a much bigger influence in our society than we sometimes think.

On an inter-personal level, race is the biggest factor in everyone's day to day. My point is that when it comes to business or very large decisions the largest motivating factor is class/money.

Intergration is great!

Just look at the ass whoopins blacks took for decades for walkin on the wrong side of the street or from sittin in the white part of the bus...I'm the 1st to admit that crazy shit still happens, but things is much improved. Basically intergration=opportunity.

What it comes down to as far as money is concerned is that blacks are largely on the wrong side of the ball in the game that is capitalism. It's great to be able to have a good job, that pays good money, allowing you to spend. But it's much better to be able to have a product or a business to earn you that money. If more blacks owned businesses in their communities reality could change around quick, fast, in hurry....look at a jewish or an italian community for example.

peace
unique

"actions have reactions, don't be quick to judge. you may not know the hardships people don't speak of"
-Guru

Well, through my research, integration brought about the demise of the Negro League, Bronzeville here in Chicago and a lot of black centers of activity and life nationwide, and the structure of the black community, in the fact that, back inna day, doctors lived next to the pimps,the social workers lived next to the handyman. You had the uplifting social and economic examples right there in the community.

Whether that's good or bad is a judgement call. I don't like it, in fact, but such is progress. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the dearth of black people in affluent city communities led them in and whites out into expanding burbs. That's what integration brought us, but it, for its credit, brought us some legal recourse to defend why we were where we were.

I'm done now.
--------------
TRoyal
reminding you that, yes, in the right social context.. "DEEEEEEEEEEZ NUUUUUUUUUUUTS!" is still funny.

It's good for the obvious reasons...access to improved healthcare/education/jobs/military etc etc. But it was partly responsible for the death of the Black community our grandparents knew. Integration along w/the general malaise that engulfed the nation after the death of JFK. But integration also helped feed the malaise...so I guess it's all circular, huh?

good for business

not necessarily good for the people